Cinderaces usage was hampered by the fact that it was available for 2(two) days out of a whole month
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Hot take but Omari P was right; people's OU ladder peaks should be visible when posting in meta discussion and VR threads.
Anyways, I've been seeing and using a lot more Hydreigon recently and I wanted to ask what set you guys are using. Nasty Plot is obviously as scary a breaker as ever but I've been getting a lot of mileage out of Scarf, getting a bunch of surprise kills on shit and just generally being a reasonably solid revengekiller. It also gets rocks now which I just recently learned myself; I've seen a few people running 3 attacks + rocks.
Anyways, I've been seeing and using a lot more Hydreigon recently and I wanted to ask what set you guys are using. Nasty Plot is obviously as scary a breaker as ever but I've been getting a lot of mileage out of Scarf, getting a bunch of surprise kills on shit and just generally being a reasonably solid revengekiller. It also gets rocks now which I just recently learned myself; I've seen a few people running 3 attacks + rocks.
Me when my topic for conversation gets overrun by constant bullying of me being in the 980 elo:
But for the Hydreigon thing, the most common set (at least from what i think) is rocks + taunt, it instantly shuts down glimmora an the next mon if the opponent switches out, but scarf and specs have been common too, scarf hydreigon is the rare ground inmunity water resist that can take attacks while not being passive, i know this is unholy specfic but if you find a situation where Hydreigon is the only mon it fits the bill, belive, it will fit like a glove
Scarf has been feeling the best for me regarding Hydreigon - 98 Speed is a frustrating tier for what I like Hydreigon to do (I actually run Specs Iron Jugulis more often), but with Scarf Hydreigon it's easier to take advantage of its solid offensive typing (and has a wide variety of usable Tera types for extra STAB thanks to its movepool)
Okay the friendly discussion about Corviknight got me thinking a bit if I could make a sort of throwback Offensive Skarm Corv set. So here is what I frankensteined together:
Corviknight @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 80 Def / 108 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Tera Blast
- U-turn / Bulk Up
- Defog
- Roost
- Tera Blast makes the whole thing work.
- U-Turn lets you U-Turn, what do you want from me
- Bulk Up can be used during a switch and can make some important OHKOs and 2HKOs possible
- Defog/Roost to do normal Corv things
So I'm not sure how to organize this so I'll just go through some calcs, first off the things that would probably switch into Corv:
---
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 389-461 (138.4 - 164%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Heh, classic
---
Okay the Dengo matchup is a bit more complicated, first off without any sort of damage boosts Make it Rain or Shadow Ball won't 2HKO. While Tera Blast will 2HKO as long as it isn't a fully defensive bulky set. And will still 2HKO if the Expert Belt is lost. +1 will OHKO non defensive sets.
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 230-274 (60.8 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
68+ Atk Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 192-228 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 341-403 (108.2 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Specs or Nasty Plot will always win the matchup by 2HKOing and outspeeding.
---
This one is still tough, you no longer get munched on by Salt Cure but in order to hit that 2HKO threshold through leftovers, you will need more attack investment. Without Bulk Up, you'll need 192+ will hit the 50% damage threshold on 252/4 defenses while the highest you can hit is a 94.5% 2HKO with 240+ ATK. But yea, still not great.
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 175-209 (43.3 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
240+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 209-247 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
---
types
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 662-782 (219.9 - 259.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 218-259 (53 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(this one is still an L)
68+ Atk Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 111-132 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 21.8% chance to 3HKO
---
Extra stuff:
Obviously Tera Ground will force a switch from any choiced attacker with an electric move such as
or 
Tera Blast also OHKOs
and 
2HKOs
, 
, 
, and 
And 3HKOs
and 
---
So yea that's the set, most likely not the most optimized. The defense at the moment is just a dump stat, like it stops some niche things like Kowtow Cleave from 2HKOing until at least 3 dead and prevents +0 Dondozo Liquidation from 2HKOing. But overall, its just a place to dump extra stuff to maintain the illusion that this guy should be a physical tank. So if you have anything to add/tweak to this please let me know!
Corviknight @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 80 Def / 108 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Tera Blast
- U-turn / Bulk Up
- Defog
- Roost
- Tera Blast makes the whole thing work.
- U-Turn lets you U-Turn, what do you want from me
- Bulk Up can be used during a switch and can make some important OHKOs and 2HKOs possible
- Defog/Roost to do normal Corv things
So I'm not sure how to organize this so I'll just go through some calcs, first off the things that would probably switch into Corv:
---
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 389-461 (138.4 - 164%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Heh, classic
---
Okay the Dengo matchup is a bit more complicated, first off without any sort of damage boosts Make it Rain or Shadow Ball won't 2HKO. While Tera Blast will 2HKO as long as it isn't a fully defensive bulky set. And will still 2HKO if the Expert Belt is lost. +1 will OHKO non defensive sets.
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 230-274 (60.8 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
68+ Atk Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 192-228 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 341-403 (108.2 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Specs or Nasty Plot will always win the matchup by 2HKOing and outspeeding.
---
This one is still tough, you no longer get munched on by Salt Cure but in order to hit that 2HKO threshold through leftovers, you will need more attack investment. Without Bulk Up, you'll need 192+ will hit the 50% damage threshold on 252/4 defenses while the highest you can hit is a 94.5% 2HKO with 240+ ATK. But yea, still not great.
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 175-209 (43.3 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
240+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 209-247 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
---
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 662-782 (219.9 - 259.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 218-259 (53 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(this one is still an L)68+ Atk Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 111-132 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 21.8% chance to 3HKO
---
Extra stuff:
Obviously Tera Ground will force a switch from any choiced attacker with an electric move such as
or Tera Blast also OHKOs
and 2HKOs
, , , and And 3HKOs
and ---
So yea that's the set, most likely not the most optimized. The defense at the moment is just a dump stat, like it stops some niche things like Kowtow Cleave from 2HKOing until at least 3 dead and prevents +0 Dondozo Liquidation from 2HKOing. But overall, its just a place to dump extra stuff to maintain the illusion that this guy should be a physical tank. So if you have anything to add/tweak to this please let me know!
Last edited:
i can actually see this. i've recently been climbing higher and higher up the ladder on a relatively fresh account and i've started to notice how samey all the teams i was coming up against were. never really came across a unique or unorthodox team, and whenever i do, it's usually a pretty fast game. and i imagine it's because of this generation's powercreep that the meta is like this, which i find very unfortunate
no counters you say? well...
- gholdengo switches in for free and either cripples it with trick or sets up in its face with nasty plot while all corviknight can do is u-turn
- chien-pao scores a 2HKO after stealth rock with choice banded crunch and corviknight is incapable of answering SD sets
- garganacl sits on corv, wears it down easily with salt cure and sets up in its face with iron defense
- iron valiant deals heavy damage with focus blast and thunderbolt and brave bird fails to OHKO it roughly 90% of the time. CM sets can also terastallize into an electric type and set up in front of corviknight and force a switch immediately after
- dragapult is a very consistent threat with choice specs since it puts you into a bad position with the threat of shadow ball alone. banded sets are easier to deal with but can easily u-turn out for momentum and corv can't handle DD sets if pult has obtained a boost
Is Expert Belt really worth it over Soft Sand?Okay the friendly discussion about Corviknight got me thinking a bit if I could make a sort of throwback OffensiveSkarmCorv set. So here is what I frankensteined together:
Corviknight @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 80 Def / 108 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Tera Blast
- U-turn / Bulk Up
- Defog
- Roost
- Tera Blast makes the whole thing work.
- U-Turn lets you U-Turn, what do you want from me
- Bulk Up can be used during a switch and can make some important OHKOs and 2HKOs possible
- Defog/Roost to do normal Corv things
So I'm not sure how to organize this so I'll just go through some calcs, first off the things that would probably switch into Corv:
---
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 389-461 (138.4 - 164%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Heh, classic
---
Okay the Dengo matchup is a bit more complicated, first off without any sort of damage boosts Make it Rain or Shadow Ball won't 2HKO. While Tera Blast will 2HKO as long as it isn't a fully defensive bulky set. And will still 2HKO if the Expert Belt is lost. +1 will OHKO non defensive sets.
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 230-274 (60.8 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
68+ Atk Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 192-228 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 341-403 (108.2 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Specs or Nasty Plot will always win the matchup by 2HKOing and outspeeding.
---
This one is still tough, you no longer get munched on by Salt Cure but in order to hit that 2HKO threshold through leftovers, you will need more attack investment. Without Bulk Up, you'll need 192+ will hit the 50% damage threshold on 252/4 defenses while the highest you can hit is a 94.5% 2HKO with 240+ ATK. But yea, still not great.
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 175-209 (43.3 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
240+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 209-247 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
---
View attachment 486406 types
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 662-782 (219.9 - 259.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
68+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 218-259 (53 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
68+ Atk Tera Ground Corviknight Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 111-132 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 21.8% chance to 3HKO
---
Extra stuff:
Obviously Tera Ground will force a switch from any choiced attacker with an electric move such as
Tera Blast also OHKOs
2HKOs
And 3HKOs
---
So yea that's the set, most likely not the most optimized. The defense at the moment is just a dump stat, like it stops some niche things like Kowtow Cleave from 2HKOing until at least 3 dead and prevents +0 Dondozo Liquidation from 2HKOing. But overall, its just a place to dump extra stuff to maintain the illusion that this guy should be a physical tank. So if you have anything to add/tweak to this please let me know!
Expert Belt allows U-Turn to do more damage too, but that's niche + you don't even have to run U-Turn. So yea Soft Sand is probably better overall
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
I was going over the SPL Week 1 usage stats, and I wrote up my more detailed thoughts here, but I wanted to mention my biggest takeaway in this thread, since it seems to reach a wider audience.
The biggest meta trend that I've seen in recent weeks is definitely that HO is becoming less common while bulky offense/balance teams have become the predominant team structure. This makes sense following the bans of Cyclizar, Chi-Yu, and Annihilape, but it's nice to look at data that seems to support that. I understand that tournament play is different from laddering and not everyone cares about tournament play, but since SPL is the first really high level SV competition we've seen yet, I think that it's important to see what is being used by the SPL field. I also understand that usage stats can be misleading and don't portray what Pokemon actually did in the games that they appeared in, so I wouldn't look into it too much, but I still find it interesting to look for general trends in the data. I'm going to quickly highlight what stood out to me the most (again, I wrote more about each of these in my post in the SPL SV Discussion thread, so please check there if you want to see my thoughts more fleshed out). This is also based on only one week of play, but I'll stop qualifying how meaningful the data is and just summarize my findings here:
- 50.00% usage and 70.00% win rate
This will likely be what people focus on the most but I don't really have much more to say, since we all know how good Chien-Pao is.
- 32.50% usage and 69.23% win rate
Pex was the fourth most used mon and had the second highest wining percentage of anything in the top ten, right behind Chien-Pao. This is a big signal that bulkier teams are thriving and that Pex didn't fall off the way that some people predicted that it would.
- 22.50% usage and 66.67% win rate
Volc continues to be a nightmare that is always a threat to 6-0 certain matchups (I've personally disliked Volc in every generation for this reason), but Terastallization only exacerbates this. The bulky Volc set with Will-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, Quiver Dance, and Fiery Dance seems to be the single most effective one at the moment.
- 2.50% usage and 100% win rate
Glimmora only appearing in one game is a big indication of the declining significance of HO in the meta.
- 2.50% usage and 100% win rate
I think that Dondozo also exceled more when HO was more common, since it walled their sweepers and threatened to sweep itself with Curse. However, with bulkier teams becoming increasingly prevalent, there isn't as much for Dondozo to wall and it can't sweep through defensive teams that have things like Pex.
- 2.50% usage and 100% win rate
Like Dondozo, it just doesn't seem to fit well on the types of bulkier team structures that have been on the rise, despite it being a defensive Pokemon itself.
- 2.50% usage and 0% win rate
It could very well just be too early to tell how Cinderace will fit into the meta, but it doesn't appear to be the solution to Gholdengo's hazard control that some had hoped for, and it faces a lot of stiff competition from other breakers (like Chien-Pao) or offensive pivots (like Pult or Roaring Moon).
- Not used at all
Again, this really just kind of drives home how much HO has fallen off following the bans of things like Cyclizar, Chi-Yu, and Annihilape, which personally I feel like is a good thing.
The biggest meta trend that I've seen in recent weeks is definitely that HO is becoming less common while bulky offense/balance teams have become the predominant team structure. This makes sense following the bans of Cyclizar, Chi-Yu, and Annihilape, but it's nice to look at data that seems to support that. I understand that tournament play is different from laddering and not everyone cares about tournament play, but since SPL is the first really high level SV competition we've seen yet, I think that it's important to see what is being used by the SPL field. I also understand that usage stats can be misleading and don't portray what Pokemon actually did in the games that they appeared in, so I wouldn't look into it too much, but I still find it interesting to look for general trends in the data. I'm going to quickly highlight what stood out to me the most (again, I wrote more about each of these in my post in the SPL SV Discussion thread, so please check there if you want to see my thoughts more fleshed out). This is also based on only one week of play, but I'll stop qualifying how meaningful the data is and just summarize my findings here:
- 50.00% usage and 70.00% win rateThis will likely be what people focus on the most but I don't really have much more to say, since we all know how good Chien-Pao is.
- 32.50% usage and 69.23% win ratePex was the fourth most used mon and had the second highest wining percentage of anything in the top ten, right behind Chien-Pao. This is a big signal that bulkier teams are thriving and that Pex didn't fall off the way that some people predicted that it would.
- 22.50% usage and 66.67% win rateVolc continues to be a nightmare that is always a threat to 6-0 certain matchups (I've personally disliked Volc in every generation for this reason), but Terastallization only exacerbates this. The bulky Volc set with Will-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, Quiver Dance, and Fiery Dance seems to be the single most effective one at the moment.
- 2.50% usage and 100% win rateGlimmora only appearing in one game is a big indication of the declining significance of HO in the meta.
- 2.50% usage and 100% win rateI think that Dondozo also exceled more when HO was more common, since it walled their sweepers and threatened to sweep itself with Curse. However, with bulkier teams becoming increasingly prevalent, there isn't as much for Dondozo to wall and it can't sweep through defensive teams that have things like Pex.
- 2.50% usage and 100% win rateLike Dondozo, it just doesn't seem to fit well on the types of bulkier team structures that have been on the rise, despite it being a defensive Pokemon itself.
- 2.50% usage and 0% win rateIt could very well just be too early to tell how Cinderace will fit into the meta, but it doesn't appear to be the solution to Gholdengo's hazard control that some had hoped for, and it faces a lot of stiff competition from other breakers (like Chien-Pao) or offensive pivots (like Pult or Roaring Moon).
- Not used at allAgain, this really just kind of drives home how much HO has fallen off following the bans of things like Cyclizar, Chi-Yu, and Annihilape, which personally I feel like is a good thing.
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HO is certainly not a dominant archetype in the current meta game, but it did see good success in its limited usage in week 1 of SPL. Rather than opt for typical + structures, 
and Terrains were the primary enablers of choice for HO this time around. 5 players brought HO and went 4-1 in those games, so I thought it would be insightful to look at how each of those games went down.
BlazingDark Vs Erz
BlazingDark brought an HO team featuring Pincurchin, 3 Quark Drive mons, Electric Seed Hawlucha, and Chien-Pao. I don't have a ton to say about this game--for the first 15 or so turns it looks like BlazingDark isn't really getting anything done. Then on turn 18 his Chien-Pao comes in, SDs once, and KOs every Pokemon on Erz's team over the next 6 turns. There was an amusing Chien-Pao Vs Chien-Pao interaction that more or less decided the game, though, with Erz's Tera Ghost in anticipation of a Sacred Sword badly backfiring as he lost the potential speed tie and was OHKO'd by BlazingDark's Crunch.
Elodin Vs Ruft
Elodin's HO team featured a lead Healing Wish Hatterene, Orthworm, and four set-up sweepers. Ultimately the game was decided by Ruft misplaying around the SubCM Espathra, as just 1 CM and a few Speed Boosts proved sufficient for Espathra to sweep through his team, in spite of his Skeledirge's efforts. Shed Tail support wasn't even required here, as the Espathra switched in hard on a Garg clicking Recover.
Leo Vs 1 True Lycan
Just like Elodin, Leo brought lead Healing Wish Hatterene, Orthworm, and four set-up sweepers. Unfortunately for Leo, 1TL came equipped with tons of counterplay in the form of a Haze Toxapex, Unaware Skeledirge (which never even needed to come out of its ball), Whirlwind Ting-Lu, Rocky Helmet Corv, and Infiltrator Dragapult. Probably an unwinnable match-up for the HO team, although arguably Iron Hands should have been called upon sooner than it was.
mind gaming Vs MichaelderBeste
mind gaming brought Hatterene, Indeedee, and four sweepers/breakers. Ultimately Psychic Terrain + Armarouge and Polteageist proved sufficient to win this game in 9 turns for mind gaming in what had to have been the ugliest beatdown of the week. Had it not been for Dragonite's Multiscale, Armarouge probably would have ended the game by itself.
cryingg Vs Kebab mlml
cryingg brought a very unorthodox HO team featuring Sash Brambleghast, fulfilling the typical Froslass role of suicide Spikes lead + Spin blocker, and 5 sweepers. Words can't really do this game justice so I encourage everyone to watch it for themselves, but in any case I doubt this particular brand of HO with Draining Kiss Sylveon and BU, Sub, Taunt, Knock Off Great Tusk will find much popularity in the weeks to come.
Overall, while HO saw limited usage week 1, it was quite successful when it did appear. I wonder if its success in week 1 will spur on more HO usage, or if we will see more players going the 1 True Lycan route and bringing a team with multiple fail safes against HO staples. And while nobody attempted to bring Screens HO week 1, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Grimmsnarl usage this coming week.
+ structures, and Terrains were the primary enablers of choice for HO this time around. 5 players brought HO and went 4-1 in those games, so I thought it would be insightful to look at how each of those games went down.BlazingDark Vs Erz
BlazingDark brought an HO team featuring Pincurchin, 3 Quark Drive mons, Electric Seed Hawlucha, and Chien-Pao. I don't have a ton to say about this game--for the first 15 or so turns it looks like BlazingDark isn't really getting anything done. Then on turn 18 his Chien-Pao comes in, SDs once, and KOs every Pokemon on Erz's team over the next 6 turns. There was an amusing Chien-Pao Vs Chien-Pao interaction that more or less decided the game, though, with Erz's Tera Ghost in anticipation of a Sacred Sword badly backfiring as he lost the potential speed tie and was OHKO'd by BlazingDark's Crunch.
Elodin Vs Ruft
Elodin's HO team featured a lead Healing Wish Hatterene, Orthworm, and four set-up sweepers. Ultimately the game was decided by Ruft misplaying around the SubCM Espathra, as just 1 CM and a few Speed Boosts proved sufficient for Espathra to sweep through his team, in spite of his Skeledirge's efforts. Shed Tail support wasn't even required here, as the Espathra switched in hard on a Garg clicking Recover.
Leo Vs 1 True Lycan
Just like Elodin, Leo brought lead Healing Wish Hatterene, Orthworm, and four set-up sweepers. Unfortunately for Leo, 1TL came equipped with tons of counterplay in the form of a Haze Toxapex, Unaware Skeledirge (which never even needed to come out of its ball), Whirlwind Ting-Lu, Rocky Helmet Corv, and Infiltrator Dragapult. Probably an unwinnable match-up for the HO team, although arguably Iron Hands should have been called upon sooner than it was.
mind gaming Vs MichaelderBeste
mind gaming brought Hatterene, Indeedee, and four sweepers/breakers. Ultimately Psychic Terrain + Armarouge and Polteageist proved sufficient to win this game in 9 turns for mind gaming in what had to have been the ugliest beatdown of the week. Had it not been for Dragonite's Multiscale, Armarouge probably would have ended the game by itself.
cryingg Vs Kebab mlml
cryingg brought a very unorthodox HO team featuring Sash Brambleghast, fulfilling the typical Froslass role of suicide Spikes lead + Spin blocker, and 5 sweepers. Words can't really do this game justice so I encourage everyone to watch it for themselves, but in any case I doubt this particular brand of HO with Draining Kiss Sylveon and BU, Sub, Taunt, Knock Off Great Tusk will find much popularity in the weeks to come.
Overall, while HO saw limited usage week 1, it was quite successful when it did appear. I wonder if its success in week 1 will spur on more HO usage, or if we will see more players going the 1 True Lycan route and bringing a team with multiple fail safes against HO staples. And while nobody attempted to bring Screens HO week 1, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Grimmsnarl usage this coming week.
Thanks for posting about the tournament tactics, to add some value from ladder:
there have been lots of adaptations to the biggest threats of the last few weeks:
- Tera fairy specs valiant is less of a threat against a lot of teams packing 252HP Gholdengo, bulkarona, Tera poison/steel bulky Pokémon’s, etc. Tera electric valiant has evolved as a response to these as the new dominant specs user that can 2HKO the common switchins. It requires teammates that bait and remove ground types, and usually it can clean in the end game. There has been an increase in calm mind usage too, which together with the aforementioned Tera electric, can often setup in the face of Gholdengo and brave bird corviknight
- the surge of toxapex usage has put a damper on momentum teams, toxapex are often split in their defensive profiles now, so there isn’t an easy answer to smack it from either of the defensive sides. This has renewed the demand for hazard stack, due to the long list of Pokémon that can do about 60-80% to a toxapex after a setup or using an SE STAB move
- despite lots of adaptations to gholdengo, it’s ability to run so many sets means it remains as unpredictable as ever. Focus blast gholdengo as a kingambit bait, trick + nastyplot, substitute gholdengo, etc
- Great tusk is possibly the de facto Landorus equivalent of OU right now. Almost on every team and there is no one good answer to it. Everyone’s in shambles trying to figure out how to reliably deal with it outside of lures or sacrificing a powerful physical hitter to dent it.
there have been lots of adaptations to the biggest threats of the last few weeks:
- Tera fairy specs valiant is less of a threat against a lot of teams packing 252HP Gholdengo, bulkarona, Tera poison/steel bulky Pokémon’s, etc. Tera electric valiant has evolved as a response to these as the new dominant specs user that can 2HKO the common switchins. It requires teammates that bait and remove ground types, and usually it can clean in the end game. There has been an increase in calm mind usage too, which together with the aforementioned Tera electric, can often setup in the face of Gholdengo and brave bird corviknight
- the surge of toxapex usage has put a damper on momentum teams, toxapex are often split in their defensive profiles now, so there isn’t an easy answer to smack it from either of the defensive sides. This has renewed the demand for hazard stack, due to the long list of Pokémon that can do about 60-80% to a toxapex after a setup or using an SE STAB move
- despite lots of adaptations to gholdengo, it’s ability to run so many sets means it remains as unpredictable as ever. Focus blast gholdengo as a kingambit bait, trick + nastyplot, substitute gholdengo, etc
- Great tusk is possibly the de facto Landorus equivalent of OU right now. Almost on every team and there is no one good answer to it. Everyone’s in shambles trying to figure out how to reliably deal with it outside of lures or sacrificing a powerful physical hitter to dent it.
i will bestie finch <3
YESSIR MR. FINCHINATOR SIR
speedran that shit like i be a top smb1 speedrunner :fire:
You can say “The Pokémon can just switch“ for any Pokémon ever made
done,
chien pao 5
Garganacl 4
Espathra 4
Gholdengo 3
lol.
keen to see more Pokémon in the meta, garganacl would go from 4 to 2 if the right threat list is added to OU.
My personal was:
Chien-Pao: 5 in the tiering survey, though I explicitly mentioned in the text box I'd probably put it higher
Garganacl: 4
Gholdengo: 3
Espathra: 2 (I find it not broken, just matchup fishy)
pao: 5
garg: 3
ghold: 3
espathra: 2
pao has no consistent counterplay outside of the tauros forms, and it is really starting to show. a lot of it is kneejerk "tera on crunch" stuff, but this comes with such a large opportunity cost of losing your tera for other things and it can be played around by swapping out and leaving you susceptible to other pao moves later, so i find this argument to be in favor of pao if anything, just a testament to how good it is. i will expand on it more later, but i do not think a ton of bans are needed right now. pao is def my #1 though.
garg is still a bit silly, but cloak has contained it a lot. and usage of it has spiked a TON. i predict it to remain common and good, and i find its impact to be substantial even if mainly on the builder, but i do not view it as pressing.
ghold was not too heavily on my radar initially, but np sets do feel a little wild when you combine how great it is offensively, how it can skirt revenge killing with tera, and how much it gains viability/usage wise with its ability already. hard to pin-down with a singular broken argument tho and normally can be sorta minimized, so ok with playing the long game on it.
espathra i am not sold on being busted now as i find prep for it gets easier and easier. but it is still a bit restrictive and that warrants inclusion. just not eager to act on it rn p much.
garg: 3
ghold: 3
espathra: 2
pao has no consistent counterplay outside of the tauros forms, and it is really starting to show. a lot of it is kneejerk "tera on crunch" stuff, but this comes with such a large opportunity cost of losing your tera for other things and it can be played around by swapping out and leaving you susceptible to other pao moves later, so i find this argument to be in favor of pao if anything, just a testament to how good it is. i will expand on it more later, but i do not think a ton of bans are needed right now. pao is def my #1 though.
garg is still a bit silly, but cloak has contained it a lot. and usage of it has spiked a TON. i predict it to remain common and good, and i find its impact to be substantial even if mainly on the builder, but i do not view it as pressing.
ghold was not too heavily on my radar initially, but np sets do feel a little wild when you combine how great it is offensively, how it can skirt revenge killing with tera, and how much it gains viability/usage wise with its ability already. hard to pin-down with a singular broken argument tho and normally can be sorta minimized, so ok with playing the long game on it.
espathra i am not sold on being busted now as i find prep for it gets easier and easier. but it is still a bit restrictive and that warrants inclusion. just not eager to act on it rn p much.
for me, it was
chien-pao: 5
garganacl: 5
gholdengo: 4/3 (don't remember which one)
esparthra: 2
first two are self-explanatory, gholdengo is quite evidently problematic but nothing too severe and esparthra took a massive hit once cyclizar was banned and HO's viability decreased. it's still quite threatening when pulled off correctly but it's no longer anything banworthy in my eyes
What bugs me about espathra is how optimisable itS EV spread is to beat the most common checks.
for example, the highest used check is gholdengo. You need moderate SpA investment to OHKO at +2 or +3 with 4+ speed boosts on most offensive sets, with moderate defensive investment to survive +2 nasty plot s ball when you’re at +3,etc etc.
v.
the 252/252 bold set is archaic and possibly a contributing factor to why it feels easier to beat.
You can even run 252 SpA modest ( a little overkill tho) and setup on the right Pokémon’s to completely evaporate the unaware walls with only 2-3 calm minds, whilst having plenty in the tank to whittle down ting Lu and co with dazzling gleam spam. The 252 modest set can also cleave through stall teams with no effort, unless they’re running Tera dark somewhere. It can steamroll offensive teams with only 1-2 calm minds in the end game, pending how many priority users the opponent has left.
everything can be calculated and budgeted for based on team composition. You actually don’t need crazy levels of defence if you’re setting up favourably. It’s only relevant for priority attacks if so.
example:
v.
with some HP investment, lefties + Tera fairy espathra isn’t 2HKOd by any unaware set. This is especially if it’s running protect over sub.
with some mild SpA investment , at +2 calm minds and +4 speeds, Espathra can 2hko even 252 calm skeledirge. With any chip whatsoever, most bold sets of skeledirge are OHKOd
otherwise if it’s the standard 252 bold set. It handily loses or is crippled in most cases
for example, the highest used check is gholdengo. You need moderate SpA investment to OHKO at +2 or +3 with 4+ speed boosts on most offensive sets, with moderate defensive investment to survive +2 nasty plot s ball when you’re at +3,etc etc.
v. +3 76+ SpA Espathra Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 381-449 (100.7 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD Espathra: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 4 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD Espathra: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
the 252/252 bold set is archaic and possibly a contributing factor to why it feels easier to beat.
You can even run 252 SpA modest ( a little overkill tho) and setup on the right Pokémon’s to completely evaporate the unaware walls with only 2-3 calm minds, whilst having plenty in the tank to whittle down ting Lu and co with dazzling gleam spam. The 252 modest set can also cleave through stall teams with no effort, unless they’re running Tera dark somewhere. It can steamroll offensive teams with only 1-2 calm minds in the end game, pending how many priority users the opponent has left.
everything can be calculated and budgeted for based on team composition. You actually don’t need crazy levels of defence if you’re setting up favourably. It’s only relevant for priority attacks if so.
example:
v. with some HP investment, lefties + Tera fairy espathra isn’t 2HKOd by any unaware set. This is especially if it’s running protect over sub.
with some mild SpA investment , at +2 calm minds and +4 speeds, Espathra can 2hko even 252 calm skeledirge. With any chip whatsoever, most bold sets of skeledirge are OHKOd
otherwise if it’s the standard 252 bold set. It handily loses or is crippled in most cases
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