Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion [ SEE POST #7570-- new tiering survey ]

[AndViet]

I can't take it anymore. Cyclizar sucks. It's just so obnoxious to play around. The worst part is it doesn't even need to hit shed tail to force switches if your current pokemon can't threaten a dragonite sub, and can just switch out or fast u-turn to gain a bunch of health back. I'm not an amazing player but meta honestly feels almost unplayable right now if you're not interested in mashing hyper offence. Anyone had any lucky with slower teams?

This is my hunch, but I feel like if it gets suspected it'll probably have a favorable vote leaning one way of the hammer.

Cyclizar is very easy to use on the right matchup, you just need to switch in on a wall setting up (for example), Shed Tail into Dragonite (with Multiscale) still intact and just Dragon Dance in their face as their trying to break your substitute. (Don't get me started if Grimmsnarl [with Light Clay] in the team preview on top of that)

I've had some luck with slower teams, but you'll have to have a Choice Scarfer or a Dragapult as a speed check. I've been running Clear Smog and a Pokémon with Unaware to have a chance with those HO teams.

 

[nicoandtheniners]

Chi-Yu gets outspeed by a Jolly Pawmot and it gets annihilated by a single Close Combat, or a Choice Band Iron Fist Mach Punch.

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pawmot Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 260-308 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

tbh this looks a pretty cool idea, I think that this deserves a little bit of testing.

 

[MANNAT]

+1 252+ SpA Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dachsbun: 123-144 (38.6 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Manually adding in Beads of Ruin adjustment. I was looking at this a few days ago. You could opt to run boots as well. Gets Wish to heal itself. Unfortunately this is about all it does. The other special in the tier sort of rip through you like Gholdengo, Dragapult and Iron Valiant. I guess it could maybe somehow have a set that beats Volcarona but it's just too passive and realistically is only covering one mon (and still loses to specs tera blast or specs dark tera)

Its decent against chien pao too if that’s your cup of tea, but yeah really mid at best if it doesn’t just wall your whole team

 

[Dive Missile]

what perks does running headlong rush over earthquake have on great tusk? i see this fairly often and i feel like earthquake would be better since it has no drawback on top of being non-contact and having higher pp. does the extra 20 bp from headlong rush hit some important damage thresholds? haven't seen any calcs comparing the two

 

[mark6870]

what perks does running headlong rush over earthquake have on great tusk? i see this fairly often and i feel like earthquake would be better since it has no drawback on top of being non-contact and having higher pp. does the extra 20 bp from headlong rush hit some important damage thresholds? haven't seen any calcs comparing the two

Headlong Rush isn't in the calc so i just made earthquake more powerful (headlong rush is italic'd), but i found these. I have no idea how relevant they are.

252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 214-253 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 178-211 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 276-325 (87 - 102.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 229-271 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 172-204 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 144-169 (38.8 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 372-438 (100.5 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 308-366 (83.2 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(i run 116 HP kingambit to outspeed corviknight)

 

[flyingtaco]

While I whole-heartedly agree Chi-Yu needs to go, I feel Dracovish is a bit of an extreme comparison.

• Hazards can wear it out over time (non hdb)
• Priority moves / outspeeding combined with its pitiful bulk can kill it
• BAXCALIBUR
• Checks previously mentioned (ttar, dondozo)

Thermal Exchange Baxcalibur can bait a Fire-type move, switch in, get the +1 atk, and then kill.

DEFENSIVE CALCS:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 99-117 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 60-72 (27 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 45-54 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 84-99 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 67-81 (30.1 - 36.4%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin: 132-156 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur affected by Beads of Ruin in Sun: 198-234 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (!!)



OFFENSIVE CALCS:
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 328-387 (252.3 - 297.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 272-322 (209.2 - 247.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 73-86 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 116-137 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fire Tera Type Chi-Yu: 54-65 (41.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Please tell me if I'm wrong on any of this, I am still a relatively new player.

These calcs are wrong. The actual calc is
(Chi-yu has adaptability to simulate beads of ruin)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 376-444 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 460-542 (105.9 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 336-396 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 544-640 (125.3 - 147.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Baxcalibur is fucked

 

[smixx]

This is my hunch, but I feel like if it gets suspected it'll probably have a favorable vote leaning one way of the hammer.

Cyclizar is very easy to use on the right matchup, you just need to switch in on a wall setting up (for example), Shed Tail into Dragonite (with Multiscale) still intact and just Dragon Dance in their face as their trying to break your substitute. (Don't get me started if Grimmsnarl [with Light Clay] in the team preview on top of that)

I've had some luck with slower teams, but you'll have to have a Choice Scarfer or a Dragapult as a speed check. I've been running Clear Smog and a Pokémon with Unaware to have a chance with those HO teams.

I've been trying to run slower/stall-like teams as well but I find that besides Garg and a selection of Unaware 'mons I am really forced to use something scarfed to deal with subbed set-up sweepers. I've been using scarfed Gholdengo to this end, but the team feels a little bit frailer overall than I'm used to stall being with all of the OP mons in the tier right now & it doesn't feel like there's real defensive counterplay to most of the Shed Tail setups that doesn't involve sacrificing at least one mon breaking the sub.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

This is my hunch, but I feel like if it gets suspected it'll probably have a favorable vote leaning one way of the hammer.

Cyclizar is very easy to use on the right matchup, you just need to switch in on a wall setting up (for example), Shed Tail into Dragonite (with Multiscale) still intact and just Dragon Dance in their face as their trying to break your substitute. (Don't get me started if Grimmsnarl [with Light Clay] in the team preview on top of that)

I've had some luck with slower teams, but you'll have to have a Choice Scarfer or a Dragapult as a speed check. I've been running Clear Smog and a Pokémon with Unaware to have a chance with those HO teams.

I know that any sound move and pokemon with Infiltrator can bypass substitute. Also Multi-Strike moves can continue to attack the pokemon after the substitute breaks, Loaded Dice can ensure this more often.

 

[Moyashi]

These calcs are wrong. The actual calc is
(Chi-yu has adaptability to simulate beads of ruin)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 376-444 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 460-542 (105.9 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 336-396 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 544-640 (125.3 - 147.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Baxcalibur is fucked

??? That isn't an accurate representation of beads of ruin. The drop is 25% of the opposing pokemon's defense drop.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 282-333 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[AndViet]

I've been trying to run slower/stall-like teams as well but I find that besides Garg and a selection of Unaware 'mons I am really forced to use something scarfed to deal with subbed set-up sweepers. I've been using scarfed Gholdengo to this end, but the team feels a little bit frailer overall than I'm used to stall being with all of the OP mons in the tier right now & it doesn't feel like there's real defensive counterplay to most of the Shed Tail setups that doesn't involve sacrificing at least one mon breaking the sub.

Yeah the counterplay to Shed Tail setups can be tough, I'm glad there are multiple options with some unaware Pokémon. Depending on the matchup I won't lie you might have to sack a Pokémon to break the substitute. I've been using scarfers with trick so I can break Cyclizar before it Shed Tail (Substitutes) up.

I know that any sound move and pokemon with Infiltrator can bypass substitute. Also Multi-Strike moves can continue to attack the pokemon after the substitute breaks, Loaded Dice can ensure this more often.

Yeah I feel like that's why I've been seeing an uptick of Mixed Dragapult and DD Dragapult with Dragon Dart [with Infiltrator].

 

[MilkyWay]

I know this is gonna get eyerolls but hear me out.


This mon is actually pretty good.

So it's pretty clear right now that the metagame is very offensive. In order to combat that a bit, I wanted to mess around with rain; I made a few variants and discovered rain is quite difficult to build rn since you're kinda fucked if you lose a key piece to a strong Tera user. I didn't really like using Barraskewda - w/o Flip Turn it just wasn't hitting hard enough unless I burnt my Tera on it, and even then stuff like Roaring Moon still created awkward 50/50s. When scrolling through the list of Swift Swim users to find a replacement, I came across Floatzel.

Statistically it's just a worse Barraskewda, no doubt about that - but what really separates it is Wave Crash.

Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation

I've been running this with Water as my Tera type and holy moly it's so good. The amount of games I've swept with Floatzel has been honestly insane, it's really threatening vs a lot of teams. Water Tera Wave Crash in rain is such a silly move that you can perform hilarious feats like the following:

OHKOing Roaring Moon: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Rain: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
OHKOing Corviknight: 252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
OHKOing pretty much every offensive mon: you get it

Now obviously you're not gonna wanna click this move all the time, but the point is there; it's really good at cleaning up weakened teams with Liquidation, so the recoil is not all that big a deal either. Here are a few games I got that really demonstrate how good Floatzel can be.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725907395
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1725912943 (it kills all 6 lol)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1726618367 (it kills all 6 again)

I think it's better than Barraskewda solely off the sheer power of Wave Crash and think it deserves a bit more experimentation than the mediocre team I made. Would love to see what others can come up with!

don't open if you have palafin ptsd

Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 176 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Taunt

got smashed by him on ladder. unironically better than palafin lol

Speaking of random swift swimmers have you tried out Golduck yet? It got Nasty Plot this gen and also has access to Ice Beam, Psychic, Focus Blast, and Grass Knot for coverage. I haven’t given it a try yet but if Floatzel can put in work maybe Golduck can too

 

[flyingtaco]

??? That isn't an accurate representation of beads of ruin. The drop is 25% of the opposing pokemon's defense drop.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 282-333 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm pretty sure you dropped defense instead of spdef there, buddy

 

[TrueScotsman]

??? That isn't an accurate representation of beads of ruin. The drop is 25% of the opposing pokemon's defense drop.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 282-333 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Actually you are wrong, you probably used the damage calculator and gave Chi Yu Beads Of Ruin as its ability. However Beads Of Ruin isn't working on the damage calculator yet so you are calculating Chi Yu with no ability. As the in calculator ability isn't working we have to find another way to represent the increased damage that decreasing the special defense gives Chi Yu. As Baxcaliber has 208 Special defense we multiply 208 by 0.75 for a 25% reduction, which gives us an answer of 156 special defense. After reducing Baxcaliber's SpDEF to 156 this is the calc for Modest specs Chi Yu.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads Of Ruin Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 376-444 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Or instead of doing all that math you could give Chi Yu Adaptability and get the same result.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 376-444 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

[TrueScotsman]

I'm pretty sure you dropped defense instead of spdef there, buddy

No, he just used Beads of Ruin in the calculator and didn't realize the ability wasn't programmed lol.

 

[smixx]

Yeah the counterplay to Shed Tail setups can be tough, I'm glad there are multiple options with some unaware Pokémon. Depending on the matchup I won't lie you might have to sack a Pokémon to break the substitute. I've been using scarfers with trick so I can break Cyclizar before it Shed Tail (Substitutes) up.



Yeah I feel like that's why I've been seeing an uptick of Mixed Dragapult and DD Dragapult with Dragon Dart [with Infiltrator].

I've tried scarfers with trick but a lot of them tend to sub first turn. So really the most effective strategy I've found is sending out an Unaware 'mon to tank a hit and break the Sub, then bring in Gholdengo.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Hopefully never. That move doesn’t belong anywhere near competitive Pokémon.

if it is broken they can just ban it like they have done with baton pass the OHKO moves and the evasion boosting moves.
people who play "anything goes" may want to use it.

my question remains unanswered.

 

[Ctann]

Has anyone tried Lucario much?


Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat / Earthquake
- Bullet Punch / Crunch / Ice punch / Earthquake

thanks to its typing, the standard e killer set (now with optional normal type stab) can be used in the current metagame to great success.

bullet punch is a decent auxiliary priority move, tho it’s limited since most things that revenge or check Lucario wont be threatened by it anyway, so the various other options cover the most problematic Pokémon.

eq hits gholdengo, tho close combat is important to be relevant without the +2 boost, and to break through Corvinight after +2. Crunch and ice punch are traditional coverage moves that might surprise ghost types and dragonite respectively. There’s probably value in finding a coverage move alternative for annihilape as well.

after a setup turn it’s e speed is more powerful than dnite at +1. And importantly, Lucario can actually run life orb thanks to its resistance to hazards and ability to set up on quite a few options.

in the current hazard stacking meta , there are lots of frail Pokémon’s with heavy duty boots that fold to +2 espeed anyway, or there are bulky Pokémon that fold to +2 close combats after taking hazards damage.

the main thing holding it back is the speed of most ghost types that threaten it, especially the popular choice scarf gholdeno set. generally speaking the high proportion of ghost types and also Tera-ghost Pokémon is an overall issue for lucario to provide consistent results without scouting out and baiting a team until many turns have passed.

However lucario retains value, even in the pre-ban gholdengo meta - excuse the wild assumption - thanks to its ability to put massive revenging pressure on the other ban-potential threats in OU, most notably the ice dog and the fire fish.

 

[XenonHero126]

if it is broken they can just ban it like they have done with baton pass the OHKO moves and the evasion boosting moves.
people who play "anything goes" may want to use it.

my question remains unanswered.

Yeah it’ll definitely be coded either way, because of like you said AG. As well as the off chance that it’s balanced in OU.

 

[zachmac]

I can't take it anymore. Cyclizar sucks. It's just so obnoxious to play around. The worst part is it doesn't even need to hit shed tail to force switches if your current pokemon can't threaten a dragonite sub, and can just switch out or fast u-turn to gain a bunch of health back. I'm not an amazing player but meta honestly feels almost unplayable right now if you're not interested in mashing hyper offence. Anyone had any lucky with slower teams?

I really think Shed Tail needs to go, especially to be consistent with the Baton Pass ban.

Cyclizar is far more obnoxious because of its speed and regenerator, but with it's steel typing Orthworm can also set up on defensive teams without much issue. Being able to set up Sub and Baton Pass in a single turn more then makes up for the extra 25% health lost - especially when passers don't usually have any other important jobs on their team other then passing subs. And heck and if Cyclizer gets gets banned we might even see scarf Orthworms. Realistically with Stealth Rock they'd only get a single chance to pass a sub but one sub is still enough to make a break a game.

While Orthworm isn't outright broken I do feel like it's almost like Shadow Tag Gothitelle in that it can just destroy certain team compositions despite being sucky in almost every other way.

 

[Finchinator]

Ok, I agree Shed Tails warrants greater discussion, but let’s not compare it to Shadow Tag or Gothitelle — trapping has an entirely different impact and Goth invalidated entire teams and Pokemon outright.

 

[zachmac]

Wasn't part of the issue with Baton Pass before that it often invalidated entire teams outright, or am I misunderstanding?

Eh I should probably just shut up before I make a fool of myself.

 

[MANNAT]

Ok, I agree Shed Tails warrants greater discussion, but let’s not compare it to Shadow Tag or Gothitelle — trapping has an entirely different impact and Goth invalidated entire teams and Pokemon outright.

On the other hand it IS very comparable to weaker forms of baton pass, think: stuff like SD passing gliscor giving stuff a position to setup and win where they wouldn’t be able to otherwise. While the mon itself is relatively underwhelming, the strategy is just super cheesy and uncompetitive.

 

[Eeveeto]

After playing the meta I agree that Cyclizar has to go.

And no, Orthworm is not broken, I played against him too and the low Speed does matter a lot, only allowing him to fire the move once. If he chooses the wrong moment (for example, when foe's Whirlwind Ting-Lu is still with high health) , the Mon is ruined.
Meanwhile Cyclizar can afford more mistakes due to enormous speed + Regenerator.

Comparison with Baton Pass are fair, but in reality Baton Pass was "broken" mainly due to Stats boost and Espeon being unable to be phazed or statused. Yes, Espeon specifically was a very big factor in Baton Pass Ban. With Shed Tail, Espeon still sees almost 0 use due to being unable to abuse it. Meanwhile actual abussers still have enough counterplay as long as Shed Tail is only used once, aka Orthworm.
What breaks Shed Tail is Cyclizar and Cyclizar only. Of course, if other fast Mons or Mons with gigantic HP or Mons with Regenerator learned the move, then the move would have to be banned.

As of now, unless there is enough evidence provided of Orthworm breaking the meta with Shed Tail, it's Cyclizar alone the one that has to go.

 

[Rasar]

How good do you guys think armarouge and ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.

From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.

Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.

 

[Codename C.A.T]

How good do you guys think armarouge and ceruledge are? I've been looking here recently and saw that both had usage above the OU cutoff.

From my admittedly limited experience, these two aren't that threatening and frail, so I'm surprised they got a lot of usage.

Side note, I really like using Scizor right now! Priority is very useful in this metagame and Bullet Punch is great for revenge killing.

They’ve felt pretty bad from what I’ve seen. Both run into any common offense team and get blown up while not doing a lot of damage in return. I can distinctly remember, LO Ceruledge Shadow Sneak couldn’t even hit 70 on my -1 Iron Valiant. In terms of fire and ghost competition, Ceruledge has to compete with stuff like Gholdengo, Chi-Yu, Gengar, and Dragapult for the slot a lot of the time. Armarouge is just a worse version of most special fires imo, it can’t do much. They might have a small niche, but I can’t see them being above like C when the VR rolls around.