when the tier leader has gone on record stating in no uncertain terms that skymin will never be ou, i don't think any discussion on it is worth having
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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What Tier leader says is not and should never be taken as absolute truth. I agree that as long as Shaymin-S has Serene Grace, Tera is allowed and also has at dispossal at least 2 viable coverage (non STAB) Moves, it won,t be OU, but we never know what will happen in the future. After all, Heatran was close to broken last 2 Gens, look at him now, looking at UU from (for now big) distance.
Isn't this conversation about the current metagame and not possibilities in future gens?
My contribution to the conversation
Team I got #1 with and am too lazy to RMT. Have fun with it before DLC. Originally made for hElLoM against Rubyblood and I think the team had a good matchup just some slight misplays and a little hax changed the game a lot. Ebelt meow is weak as hell but good into a lot of the weird double/triple ground + bird spike balances that people have been spamming. Click the Screenshot for team. Below is rank peak. Literally almost 100 below my overall peak which means ladder is dead but I peaked twice (thrice if you count #2, which I don't) this meta so even if I didn't accomplish what I wanted with tournaments I feel proud of how far I've come.
This aged so badly, yeah I guess Chansey is extremely irrelevant. Blissey I think has had some decent relevancy when it comes to stall teams but even then Heal Bell might not be the choice when I thought at the time it would be on 90% of the sets. I'm hoping there are more Heal Bell / Aromatherapy distribution on the DLCs, but sheesh this was a bad take.
I am not if it fits the thread but I have a question:
1. Due to Booster Energy Valiant is there a good Choice Scarf Mon left?
2. Was Toxic always more Anti Stall or Anti Offense in general?
1. Due to Booster Energy Valiant is there a good Choice Scarf Mon left?
2. Was Toxic always more Anti Stall or Anti Offense in general?
1. Protean Scarf Gren is heat. Also there are other scarfers that don't outspeed Val but aren't weak to it, but ones that outspeed could include Meowscarda and Roaring Moon.
2. It's more Anti Offense because Stall usually has a status absorber, or ways to remove it, while Offense is put on a timer.
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1. Already answered by BijouMode, but I would add Chlorophyll Lilligant Hisui on Sun and Floatzel on Rain as Mons that outspeed Booster Valiant. Weather specific but they are good (especially Lilligant).
2. It's actually a little specific. "Bulky Mons that are outside of full Stall teams" are what I would say the most damaged by Toxic. Stall Mons tend to have absorbers (or use Restalk/Heal Bell) while offensive Mons don't need to stick around so much time, actually prefering Toxic over Sleep, Para or Burn (physical ones only).
I tried Scarf Gren but it lacks a little bit of power - would you say Scarf Protean Meowscarada is an alternative?
2. This is what I noticed as well. Toxic on Blissey for example always felt more punishing for offensive bulky mons.
1. Liligant is actually crazy I agree. I tried LO Encore in Sun and it goes hard. Encore is the cheeky move for some mons to lock them into nonsense.
Do you guys think that Garchomp would be back to being a relevant threat (or at least not drop to UU) if it gets scale shot back in the dlc? I think it would definitely help it get back to being a significant threat, as it would allow swords dance sets to boost their speed in order to not be outclassed by other setup sweepers like baxcalibur, and have a potentially stronger albeit more inconsistent stab than dragon claw.
i definitely think that scale shot would at the very least keep it out of uu, but "relevant" is a tall order in a meta where baxcalibur exists. even with scale shot, chomp needs 2 turns to boost both its attack and speed and bax only needs one, so even though dual dance chomp is faster, bax still needs less time to get to the "ok i just win now" point. of course, it also doesn't help that ice shard bax eats chomp's entire lunch 1v1 anyway
Guys y'all are missing the bigger picture this is the year of DD chomp and now it gets play rough and ice shard and gigaton hammer and a special tera hat that makes it dragon but also not dragon
Simple: Bax will also get Scale Shot and cement a ban, leaving Garchomp unopposed as Dragon Sweeper.
I mean, Chomp is still a threat as is. Speed tier is not bad, it destroys legendary birds with Stone Edge, can nuke mons like Tusk with Draco, inflicts critical chip on the likes of Corv, gambit, samur-H with rough skin, as well as on tusk looking to spin away its hazards. The issue is that the utility it brings to the team is nowhere near as high value as other grounds. Lando-T is immune to hazards practically and good vs other grounds. Tusk provides the ever crucial spin, and Ting-Lu is extremely bulky. Getting revenged by strong threats like Valiant and Wake is also not great. Scale shot might help with the revenge killing issue, but you still get revenge by bax.
Hazards need some nerf for chomp to be great again imo
God, Bax with Scale Shot would be nutty. Dice is already a very tempting item for it but the value of boots always makes me not think it's worth it. If it got Shot I imagine that calculus would change a fair bit.
You have no idea how bored I am rn. The metagame is so stale that it hurts to teambuild shit.
So let me instead talk about the returning DLC mons.
This guy has a lot of potential to be great. Sure it's not AS broken with tera in the picture, but Gliscor is a universally good OU pokemon -- even in Gen 7 with Z moves it excelled. Definitely something to keep an eye on as the meta progresses.
For the first time in my life, I'm actually scared of Aurora Veil. Earlier this gen, we had the Screens Teams featuring obscene shit like Magearna, Ursaluna, and Volcarona. Now we can set BOTH UP in a matter of seconds. This pokemon is the one I have my eye on the most for potential brokenness.
Conkeldurr. I have high hopes for conk. It can now unleash a Tera Normal Facade to wipe... well damn, a lot of things actually. Combined with Drain Punch healing and Mach Punch priority and this thing is a definitive threat. It might be specific in it's role due to it's low speed and general issues with bulk. But in the past (UU anyways), Conkeldurr was like a Mega Medicham -- SOMETHING was going to die when it entered the field and tera boosts this guy's power to levels that I didn't think possible. The fact that this guy was UUBL almost all it's life just explains how powerful it really is.
All 4 Tapu Pokemon are also gonna be returning (as all legendaries do) and all of them are threatening. The worst of them is gonna be Tapu Koko. The enabling of Quark Drive teams will provide support like nothing else will. Koko will make terrain wars and maintaining Ice Spinner crucial for the new metagame with it.
Lord have mercy on those that dare face it's Crabhammer. Crawdaunt is really strong. Like it's almost funny how much so. The sheer devastation an Adaptability Tera Water Crabhammer can unleash is obscene. Not to mention you can even revive it now with Revival Blessing. Speaking of, now let me talk about some moves I see that are gonna be goated.
Revival Blessing. The ever lasting epic move now has even more offensive threats to get back in the game. This move and it's risk reward ratio is going to skyrocket overnight when the 2nd DLC drops.
Poltergeist. Behold a move of almost Close Combat proportions -- revealing items and dealing solid neutral damage to basically everything not named a Dark type (or Blissey tbh). This move is going to be great... so long as actual things get it.
Rising Voltage. I am actually debating this generation of competitive. The Tapus will be returning (again, most likely) and as such, we will see Tapus and more specifically, Tapu Koko. This mon will probably get banned, but if it doesn't then Rising Voltage is gonna be REALLY POWERFUL. Pray for us that this move won't be busted.
Unfortunately, there's not much else to mention with the DLC. But the obvious issues is gonna be Tapus and Veil Teams. Hope is all we can do for the future. A better one without this obscene power.
So let me instead talk about the returning DLC mons.
This guy has a lot of potential to be great. Sure it's not AS broken with tera in the picture, but Gliscor is a universally good OU pokemon -- even in Gen 7 with Z moves it excelled. Definitely something to keep an eye on as the meta progresses. For the first time in my life, I'm actually scared of Aurora Veil. Earlier this gen, we had the Screens Teams featuring obscene shit like Magearna, Ursaluna, and Volcarona. Now we can set BOTH UP in a matter of seconds. This pokemon is the one I have my eye on the most for potential brokenness. Conkeldurr. I have high hopes for conk. It can now unleash a Tera Normal Facade to wipe... well damn, a lot of things actually. Combined with Drain Punch healing and Mach Punch priority and this thing is a definitive threat. It might be specific in it's role due to it's low speed and general issues with bulk. But in the past (UU anyways), Conkeldurr was like a Mega Medicham -- SOMETHING was going to die when it entered the field and tera boosts this guy's power to levels that I didn't think possible. The fact that this guy was UUBL almost all it's life just explains how powerful it really is. All 4 Tapu Pokemon are also gonna be returning (as all legendaries do) and all of them are threatening. The worst of them is gonna be Tapu Koko. The enabling of Quark Drive teams will provide support like nothing else will. Koko will make terrain wars and maintaining Ice Spinner crucial for the new metagame with it. Lord have mercy on those that dare face it's Crabhammer. Crawdaunt is really strong. Like it's almost funny how much so. The sheer devastation an Adaptability Tera Water Crabhammer can unleash is obscene. Not to mention you can even revive it now with Revival Blessing. Speaking of, now let me talk about some moves I see that are gonna be goated.Revival Blessing. The ever lasting epic move now has even more offensive threats to get back in the game. This move and it's risk reward ratio is going to skyrocket overnight when the 2nd DLC drops.
Poltergeist. Behold a move of almost Close Combat proportions -- revealing items and dealing solid neutral damage to basically everything not named a Dark type (or Blissey tbh). This move is going to be great... so long as actual things get it.
Rising Voltage. I am actually debating this generation of competitive. The Tapus will be returning (again, most likely) and as such, we will see Tapus and more specifically, Tapu Koko. This mon will probably get banned, but if it doesn't then Rising Voltage is gonna be REALLY POWERFUL. Pray for us that this move won't be busted.
Unfortunately, there's not much else to mention with the DLC. But the obvious issues is gonna be Tapus and Veil Teams. Hope is all we can do for the future. A better one without this obscene power.
Tbh I think the only things that really matters in the DLC that matters are the Tapus, Gliscor, and maybe Clef, because everything just doesn't seem strong enough to have a real effect on the meta, while the moves really have to rely on their distribution to see how much they matter.You have no idea how bored I am rn. The metagame is so stale that it hurts to teambuild shit.
So let me instead talk about the returning DLC mons.
Revival Blessing. The ever lasting epic move now has even more offensive threats to get back in the game. This move and it's risk reward ratio is going to skyrocket overnight when the 2nd DLC drops.
Poltergeist. Behold a move of almost Close Combat proportions -- revealing items and dealing solid neutral damage to basically everything not named a Dark type (or Blissey tbh). This move is going to be great... so long as actual things get it.
Rising Voltage. I am actually debating this generation of competitive. The Tapus will be returning (again, most likely) and as such, we will see Tapus and more specifically, Tapu Koko. This mon will probably get banned, but if it doesn't then Rising Voltage is gonna be REALLY POWERFUL. Pray for us that this move won't be busted.
Unfortunately, there's not much else to mention with the DLC. But the obvious issues is gonna be Tapus and Veil Teams. Hope is all we can do for the future. A better one without this obscene power.
You don't think Kommo-o will have a real effect on the meta when it's been OU in both of the previous generations it was viable in? Do you really believe that Iron Valiant and Skeledirge (which is UU) would push Kommo-o out of the meta completely?
Not gonna lie, but I think if the Tapus return Tapu Koko will be the only Tapu that lasts in OU since Lele will be clearly broken with Tera, and powercreep will have Fini and Bulu in UU.
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I was only responding really to the mons mentioned in the message I quoted but I have mentioned before Kommo-o will be incredibly fire with the amount of viable teras and movesets it could run. Also, I never mentioned Skeledirge (which is beaten by special Kommo-o sets anyway) or IVal in my post.
Edit: Found the post, here it is.
KommoO was BL at the end of last gen and not really relevant. It was OU earlier in the gen with the limited Dex, but right now it doesn't really have a discernable role.
Look at its stats next to Tusk and Bax and it becomes very clear Kommo-O will be largely outshined in the current meta. Offensive sets will be outdone by bax while defensive (and offensive) sets will be outdone by Tusk. It might have a few stray niches using some of the unique moves it gets like Clangerous Soul and Belly Drum + some niche utility with Tera like being able to switch into Pult's STABs with Tera Fairy Bulletproof. However I think it's use will be limited to fringe cases rather than being a meta staple as it was in the past.
This is context dependent, so while others have already answered, I figured I'd give a more detailed/technical response.
In a broad sense, regular poison is stronger versus offensive teams while toxic is stronger versus bulkier teams.
In practice it's much more about which Pokemon are being targeted, so to answer it properly it's better to give a mathematical example:
The formulae for poison damage are as follows:
Poison Damage = floor(Max HP / 8)
Bad Poison Damage = N * floor(Max HP / 16)
N = total active turns; 1 <= N <= 15;
Let's assume that we have a Pokemon with exactly 16 HP. Here is a table comparing the cumulative damage they would receive from different types of poison over the duration of these turns:
| Turns on field | Poison Damage | Bad Poison Damage | Cumulative Poison Damage | Cumulative Bad Poison Damage |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 |
| 2 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 3 |
| 3 | 2 | 3 | 6 | 6 |
| 4 | 2 | 4 | 8 | 10 |
| 5 | 2 | 5 | 10 | 15 |
| 6 | 2 | 6 | 12 | 21 |
| 7 | 2 | 7 | 14 | 28 |
| 8 | 2 | 8 | 16 | 36 |
| 9 | 2 | 9 | 18 | 45 |
| 10 | 2 | 10 | 20 | 55 |
| 11 | 2 | 11 | 22 | 66 |
| 12 | 2 | 12 | 24 | 78 |
| 13 | 2 | 13 | 26 | 91 |
| 14 | 2 | 14 | 28 | 105 |
| 15 | 2 | 15 | 30 | 120 |
| 16 | 2 | 15 | 32 | 135 |
Looking at the cumulative damage, we can see that the values are equal on turn 3, meaning that regular poison is better if the afflicted Pokémon is active for 1–2 turns, equally as good if they are active for 3 turns, and worse if they are active for 4+ turns.
However, there is one other thing worth noting about bad poison, which is that it will out-damage strong healing sources over a prolonged period. The benchmarks for when it outdamages a few different healing sources over a single turn is as follows:
- Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis in sun: Turn 11+
- Recover/clones: Turn 9+
- Regenerator: Turn 6+
- Lunar Blessing/Jungle Healing, Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis in rain/sandstorm/hail: Turn 5+
Compared to regular poison, this makes Toxic very good at pressuring defensive walls/Pokémon who depend primarily on Regenerator to heal (namely Slowbro, Slowking, and Tangrowth) and forcing switches. Being able to force switches like this makes defensive checks to Pokémon much flimsier. Additionally, if a Pokémon has a means to trap their target, it allows the user to rack up damage and defeat or otherwise cripple them very quickly (which was a big part of why Heatran was so strong in gens 6–8: it was a DoT monster between Magma Storm trapping and dealing 1/8 per turn, Toxic racking up, and Taunt thwarting healing options.
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In previous gens, Toxic has always been this sorta filler fake-coverage option as it gave Pokémon that otherwise lacked easy access to damage-over-time (DOT) effects the ability to put their defensive responses on a timer. It was at its strongest when it could be paired with moves like Substitute, Protect, Taunt, and/or trapping, with Taunt + partial trapping move/DOT being one of the strongest/most consistent forms of stallbreaking in the game, but Pokémon like Lando-T would often run it as it improved their matchup versus a) bulky neutral/resistant responses with strong options for firing back (e.g. Slowbro) and b) Pokémon who are immune to their primary offensive options (e.g. Lando-T). It's not particularly "more" anti-anything, but it's broadly at its strongest in a vacuum vs defensive balance and at its weakest versus hyper offence. Versus hyper offence, I would generally avoid relying on it, and if you have Toxic Spikes, I would say it is better to set up 1 layer instead of 2 versus a majority of teams, though once again this is context dependent.
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I've seen no evidence of this though
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