Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Finchinator said:
There will be a community survey coming up tomorrow in all likelihood; the data will hopefully help dictate upcoming tiering decisions.
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Very happy to hear this. It's been a rough week but I think this and the proposed quickban threshold change will do wonders for discussion and the meta going forward.
 
Mojo-Robo said:
Very happy to hear this. It's been a rough week but I think this and the proposed quickban threshold change will do wonders for discussion and the meta going forward.
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I agree.

I think some people have been harsh as two bans in the span of four-five days is still a quicker pace than a lot of other generations have had after releases. However, I also think a few other bans are heavily supported. I think this will reflect in the tiering survey and perhaps in the next round of quickbans.
 
I agree that people are being way too harsh towards the OU council, I personally really appreciate the work Finchinator in particular has been putting in when it comes to both fast-paced and sensible tiering decisions while also actively engaging with the community in a way I personally haven't seen much in the past, so big props to him. Not really fond of the amount of negativity directed towards him when he clearly deserves a lot more than to be borderline insulted every time the OU council either does or doesn't do anything.
 
SwaggySammy44 said:
Kinda frustrating when 6 votes (2/3 of the council) still isn't enough to get a ban, but it is what it is. I'm glad Finch makes posts explaining the logic of his votes, I just wish the rest of the council will do that also, it would be really good for discussion.

Also, is there gonna be a community tiering survey in the near future? I really enjoy those.
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Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. Finch does a lot and is often very clear and open with his decision-making and feelings on different things. Think it would be nice if the other council members were as transparent and communicative. It is also very nice to see that they’re looking to reduce the number of votes needed for a ban.
 
Finchinator said:
I agree.

I think some people have been harsh as two bans in the span of four-five days is still a quicker pace than a lot of other generations have had after releases. However, I also think a few other bans are heavily supported. I think this will reflect in the tiering survey and perhaps in the next round of quickbans.
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Me when Chien-Pao is banned (I can actually play OU now)
 
You know like, of course Magearna had to go, but for people like me who play OU for fun (in that threshold where I'm too good to play with friends and too bad to play competitively), all those mons like Mage, Mane, Bundle, Houndstone, Espathra... that was like suuuper satisfying. Very uncompetitive I guess but oh well. I'm just gonna mobilize people to build OUBL. Or OUNS (OU No Skill).
 
arnimacarni said:
You know like, of course Magearna had to go, but for people like me who play OU for fun (in that threshold where I'm too good to play with friends and too bad to play competitively), all those mons like Mage, Mane, Bundle, Houndstone, Espathra... that was like suuuper satisfying. Very uncompetitive I guess but oh well. I'm just gonna mobilize people to build OUBL. Or OUNS (OU No Skill).
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If you’re looking for that good uncompetitive cheese, slap a Great Tusk and a CB Chien-Pao on your team. Tusk removes hazards and CB Pao is the uncompetitive cheese bullshit despicable wings of despair breath of ruin mon that’s currently in the tier. It clicks buttons with impunity, Zama-H can’t repeatedly take Icicle Crash, Zama-C can’t take Sacred Sword well, and nothing else takes it on.

if it’s not clear, I hate Pao a lot.
 
UnfortunateSal said:
I agree that people are being way too harsh towards the OU council, I personally really appreciate the work Finchinator in particular has been putting in when it comes to both fast-paced and sensible tiering decisions while also actively engaging with the community in a way I personally haven't seen much in the past, so big props to him. Not really fond of the amount of negativity directed towards him when he clearly deserves a lot more than to be borderline insulted every time the OU council either does or doesn't do anything.
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I can’t speak for everyone, but I highly admire Finchinator for his work. I may argue with him often, but this is only because we don’t see eye-to-eye on everything. I still have a great deal of respect for him, and the rest of the council. I believe many people feel this way as well.
 
UnfortunateSal said:
I agree that people are being way too harsh towards the OU council, I personally really appreciate the work Finchinator in particular has been putting in when it comes to both fast-paced and sensible tiering decisions while also actively engaging with the community in a way I personally haven't seen much in the past, so big props to him. Not really fond of the amount of negativity directed towards him when he clearly deserves a lot more than to be borderline insulted every time the OU council either does or doesn't do anything.
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I can somewhat understand why some people tend to point fingers at the council. Like some of these people are very loud, even if they represent a minority. So they advocate for either banning things or keeping things in Ubers before they're able to be used.
So when said Pokemon get quick banned to Ubers, in their eyes, the whole situation seems like "a waste of time" that could have been used toward something else. Of course, I personally am not saying it's a waste of time because either way it injects livelihood. These things encourage discussion, brainstorming, and breeds creativity.

If the vocal people had their way, Walking Wake would have been unjustifiably banned. Remember when people were screaming at the council for them to take immediate action against it for the first week it was out. Nowadays, people don't even consider Walking Wake anywhere near ban worthy.
 
Finchinator said:
There will be a community survey coming up tomorrow in all likelihood; the data will hopefully help dictate upcoming tiering decisions.
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great to hear! all jokes aside, i really do appreciate how fast you and the rest of the OU council are with the many tiering actions this generation. i'd say it's a huge improvement from past generations in regards to both pacing and decision-making and i really do hold a great deal of respect for the entire council for it.

however for the sake of starting a new discussion, which pokemon does everyone here think fell off hard between the pre-HOME and post-HOME metas, and which pokemon stayed the same/improved? for me, meowscarada took a huge blow with the unbans and returning pokemon, having poor matchups into a lot of the top tiers like chien-pao, zamazenta (both forms), enamorus, zapdos, and so forth. meowscarada still is good, don't get me wrong. it's still a splashable and versatile pivot that takes great advantage of protean with its movepool and speed......but it's just a lot harder to use with all the faster threats, as well as the many pokemon that resist its STABs or can generally just take its hits well. it'll definitely see a bit more usage once chien-pao and zamazenta get banned but as of now it's just a shell of its former self in my eyes.
 
Dragapult said:
You wrote (on a Friday afternoon, no less) a passionate essay about an as-of-yet undecided policy matter pertaining to a competitive interpretation of a children's game. Have some self-awareness. We all are nerds here.

SV with its numerous broken moves, significant power creep, and Terastal runs the risk of heading the same way as BW if not managed correctly (that is, to, say, insulated from the whims of what every last person on the internet wants when half of them will just quit when things don't go their way anyway.)



And yet you insist on playing with these people because of your claim that it is impossible to establish an alternative. I am sure many if not even most players in this community have some sort of grievance relating to a tiering action or restriction they view(ed) as unjustified. But that's part of community. We come together to play under a broadly accepted set of rules that not everybody (if anybody) likes because they are relatively straightforward even if they are not necessarily the most fun, an approach which has been validated by the failure of countless leagues, private servers, and alternative metas to make it past meme status (e.g. NatDex and AG.) If people are frustrated and feel as if their voices aren't being heard (which I find hard to believe given the amount of engagement Finch does – unthinkable back in BW) they really should consider creating that space for themselves. It's not as if Smogon is/was the only competitive community or Showdown was the first or only simulator. Alternatives have existed and remain possible. You play Smogon today because the decisions that were made in the past helped grow and sustain it so that it would be a viable thing for you to eventually participate in.

Rules, bylines, restrictions, etc. always work better when simple. This isn't a Smogon thing. It's just real life. What this means is that there'll be casualties (e.g. Sneasler, if/when its time does come) and will continue to be so as long as GF continues pumping out overtorqued concepts that break the balance of their own games. FWIW I think OU's been unplayable all generation and don't believe for a second that UU's BW-esque surge in popularity has nothing to do with the futility of managing a Terastal-enabled tier at this power level. My having that opinion does not call for me belittling other people. Get a grip.
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What a rude reply lmao. His frustration is that current tiering policy forces us to ban Pokémon when there are certain elements that would be broken on basically any Pokémon, which is a fair criticism of the current system imo. Game freaks design philosophy has changed dramatically since these policies were established, which has lead to a dramatically different game than even just a few generations ago, and tiering policy has not been adjusted to compensate, as evidenced by us having to ban 5-6 Pokémon with every dlc/game drop. Stability is the goal, but it has been more and more difficult every generation due to game freak. I wouldn’t be shocked if gen 10 had multiple 400bst shitmons (such as houndstone) banned to Ubers because they had absolutely insane signature moves that are clearly the only thing remotely broken about them, which just doesn’t sit right with me and many other smogon members.
 
I think some people are missing the point. I don't think most people are criticizing the council, and certainly not people like Finch or ausma who are consistently active in discussion and reasoning - much the opposite, we appreciate those people *especially*. In fact, I think most people are mostly okay with most of the votes especially with further action and a survey on the horizon. I just think it would be nice for more people on the "making decisions team" to more actively make the reasons they make those decisions known, especially against fairly unanimous public opinion (ZamaC/Chien being broken have been like 80% held beliefs from what I've seen)
 
Honestly the only questionable result was Chien-Pao. Like Chien-Pao was banned before, dropped to OU because like 3.5 new Pokemon check it and few more could revenge kill it (but only assuming its not running priority). One of those checks being Magearna, who was banned in the same vote.
I agree with everything else. There should be more testing going on for the Pokemon on the Radar.

Also hot take no one is ready for.
:Kingambit: > :Ursaluna:, especially if Zama-C gets banned.
 
The2009Zapdos said:
Honestly, I wonder what happens when the council decides stuff. Classified info, but it might have politics or whatever. I'm not for allat
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They watch the Season 1 Pokémon Opening 69 times and then begin the ritual of praying to the holy Pex (Stall be upon them) and begin the round table of votes. That's the political information you desired and it is given.
 
Why is Magearna still around?
Shouldn't such a poetic and firm statement as a ban be immediate?
And if not then should come with update time?
 
Lately I’ve found that I’ve been using volcanion on like 90% of my teams and it’s just a really good glue pokemon. Good against rain, against half of the main sun core, and just a good bulky Pokémon in general. Has anyone else found success with it cause I don’t see it much on ladder atm
 
Ast0rga said:
Why is Magearna still around?
Shouldn't such a poetic and firm statement as a ban be immediate?
And if not then should come with update time?
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You should use these final precious minutes to enjoy using the robot rabbit whilst you can. The mad scientists pulling the strings behind the scenes are working on the code be patient.
 
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