Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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I'm probably in the small contingent that's actually kind of excited to see Ogerpon in play
On the subject of Ogerpon, does anyone know if the forced mask usage for its other forms grant it a knock off resilience (as in, does it not lose the mask to knock off)?
 

ausma

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As an add-on to TPP's amazing compendium, I'd like to briefly mention OU viable pre-DLC Pokemon that have received buffs from DLC worth considering as a result of the new TMs. I'll be giving a quick 5 star rate on each new Pokemon's synergy with the TM, on the basis of how influential it will be for improving how well they can execute their roles.

Flip Turn
:walking-wake::alomomola::floatzel::basculegion::samurott-hisui:
- Walking Wake does appreciate Flip Turn as an option into potent Special walls like Blissey, SpDef Toxapex, and AV Azumarill, giving sun-less Choice Specs sets more layers of interaction and opening the path for potential offensive pivot sets with HDB. However in Sun I don't really feel Flip Turn is extremely value due to the raw power of Hydro Steam allowing it to brute force SpDef Galarian Slowking and even some resisted targets. Otherwise it's a decent addition that has some applications but nothing that really changes how well it fulfills its main role. 3/5.

- Alomomola, in my opinion, is far and away the biggest winner from this TM, making it able to pass Wishes far more reliably. In tandem with the fact it received Scald to avoid passivity and its access to Regenerator to keep itself healthy without Wish, I believe Alomomola has the potential to be a truly incredible Pokemon in the format, maybe even top tier. 5/5.

- Floatzel and Basculegion both appreciate Flip Turn for very similar reasons. The brute force of Wave Crash under Rain is usually such a potent nuke that it will 2HKO most things anyway, but Flip Turn allows for great chip damage that also positions a synergistic teammate that can more readily enable a sweep with Liquidation, easing the pressure to use Wave Crash as much. For Floatzel I feel that's a bit more substantial as it dies from recoil faster than Basculegion, but realistically the utility is very much so the same. 4/5.

- Samurott-Hisui's use of Flip Turn is actually sick as fuck imo. Swords Dance and lead sets couldn't much care for it, but the combined pressure of Flip Turn and Ceaseless Edge to accrue pressure throughout the game for its teammates has the potential to make AV and Choice Scarf sets even more potent. It's nothing game-changing but it's a welcome addition that is pro-concept for its general gameplan. 3/5.

2: Knock Off:
:tyranitar::roaring-moon::weavile::walking-wake::tornadus-therian::azumarill::zapdos-galar::scizor:
Knock Off as a Primary STAB

- Tyranitar will definitely not be making as many OU waves until a competent Sand Rush user enters Paldea, but gaining access to Knock Off is a truly insane addition that complements pretty much every way you could use Tyranitar. Between defensive sets, Choice Band, and options like AV, Knock Off's strength and the secondary effect mean Tyranitar now is capable of applying pressure and making progress in a single move, which for a Pokemon of its weakness profile/Speed is quite substantial. This change doesn't address its core problems so I do feel like it's not a perfect addition, but it's great nonetheless and may give Tyranitar a bit more of a niche in the tier. 4/5.

- Roaring Moon really appreciates Knock Off! This addition definitely plays a similar role to Tyranitar in that it accentuates its potential set combinations really well, between your standard DD sets, and opening more avenues for Band/offensive pivot sets. Does not fix its problems but is an add that makes it more threatening. 4/5.

- If you've played SS OU, which a vast majority of you have, I don't need to explain to you why this move is so important for Weavile. 5/5.

Knock Off as Utility

- Walking Wake definitely leans more into the utility side of things with Knock Off. Unlike Flip Turn which could see applications on its strongest sets, Knock Off is mostly a complement to a potential offensive pivot set by disrupting AV users and stripping away HDB from Pokemon it would like hazard support to break more reliably. For that new set, it can be pretty neat, but otherwise it's a bit less applicable. 2/5.

- A Pokemon that would be massively improved by using Knock Off for utility is indeed Tornadus-T. Going into Paldea it was relegated to strict offense with Nasty Plot, but Knock Off does return more of Tornadus-T's dimensionality as a progress-maker and potential late game cleaner. Defensive pivot sets--especially with AV--definitely hold more water with this option back in its disposal. Losing Defog sucks, but this is a great consolation gift that will help bring Tornadus-T's main strengths a bit more into the limelight. 4/5.

Knock Off as Coverage

- Azumarill hasn't really needed this move to be a successful Pokemon in SV OU, but the utility and coverage of Knock Off is a solid option for AV and CB sets to ensure progress into the likes of Amoonguss and the new Fezandipiti. 3/5.

- Knock Off for Galarian Zapdos is probably the coverage move it needed, as its otherwise incredible STAB combo is blanked by the near omnipresent Gholdengo. Knock Off as a tool into it is really nice, and does make its CB/Scarf sets a bit easier to support and run while providing it a good middle ground option. 4/5.

- Scizor appreciates Knock Off for a similar reason as Galarian Zapdos, but probably needed it to a lesser extent since it had access to Technician Thief and could at least carve a somewhat consistent niche with SD Technician Bullet Punch. The lack of Roost is probably the bigger elephant in the room for Scizor, as bulky SD sets that would otherwise utilize Knock Off are just not as feasible. It's still pretty good for all-out offensive sets, so it's not an addition to complain about at all. 3/5.

3: Scald
:alomomola::slowking::walking-wake:
- Scald is a pretty big deal for Alomomola, as it ensures that you can't exploit its attempts at Wish passing as easily. Alomomola appreciates this change a lot by itself even without its newfound game-changing role, so it absolutely is worth respecting. 4/5.

- Slowking's access to Scald is a pretty big way to make it so FuturePort strategies are harder to exploit, and this was pretty big back in SS imo. Regaining access to this move is really nice for it, and it will definitely appreciate being able to do more than just be a Chilly Reception bot by exerting pressure and forcing more staggered switches, thus giving it more breathing room to set up a FuturePort situation. 4/5.

- Walking Wake... doesn't really care about this move very much. Not that it doesn't help it to some extent, but like I said previously, Walking Wake's main draw is using the sun to become that high caliber wallbreaker we know and love. The issue is Scald is weakened by Sun, meaning its primary applications will be on sun-less Specs and a potential pivot set. The main things you'd expect to be taking on your Water-type attacks (dedicated Special walls barring AV Azumarill which does hate Scald) are also ones that don't particularly hate being burnt, which is huge with the influx of Toxic and how full paralysis can be far more impactful on average. I feel like the set that it would shine on the most is pivoting, where its immediate strength is more underwhelming and Pokemon like Rillaboom would be more willing to tango with it. 2/5.

4: Other Additions
:rillaboom::iron-valiant::baxcalibur::garchomp:
- Grassy Glide's return is awesome for revenge killing with Choice Band, but the severe drop in power by 15 BP is definitely a huge difference and one that really hurts SD sets. With Pokemon like Tornadus-T likely to have a resurgence and Pokemon like Zapdos and Mandibuzz that are sure to be solid at least, I feel like it struggles a lot more. I guess you can use CB to pressure Alomomola on a switch. 4/5 just because of the nerf.

- Iron Valiant getting Special priority in Vacuum Wave is super nice for Choice Specs sets, giving it more revenge killing applications; though it isn't extremely useful barring some CM variants due to Valiant's inherent qualms with 4MSS. 3/5.

- Scale Shot is extremely strong for Baxcalibur and Garchomp. I expect Baxcalibur to be the superior user out the gate, as it already runs SD and Loaded Dice even without Scale Shot and is arguably even harder to switch into. Scale Shot makes SD all the stronger while invalidating a huge way to check SD Baxcalibur in the form of revenge killing. Once/if Baxcalibur is gone, though, Garchomp will definitely be back to its former SS glory. 5/5 for both.

----

I'm looking forward to exploring this new metagame with you all. If there's anything I missed/you have thoughts on, feel free to let me know or just share your own findings!
 

NoobHereWaddup

Tri Attack will freeze
is a Tiering Contributor
On the topic of Bax, here's the funny calc:
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 154-183 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Use A-Ninetales + Bax while you can guys
in all honesty i think rain is gonna be even more annoying why does basculegion get flip turn now why
 
On the topic of Bax, here's the funny calc:
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 154-183 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Use A-Ninetales + Bax while you can guys
in all honesty i think rain is gonna be even more annoying why does basculegion get flip turn now why
Bax pairs decently with Alomomola too, if you don't want to use snow. Lots of good options for it
 
:shiftry:
Does shiftry have any semblance of potential? With his new ability, Tailwind is a 3-turn shift gear if I understand correctly (that might also boost a teammate's speed in a pinch), his stab combo (which includes knock off) is only resisted by kingambit (who is ohkoed by low kick) and enamorus, and it can tera out of his abysmal defensive typing. Might be worth adding to the OP.
 
New Abilities:

Mind's Eye
: The Pokémon ignores changes to opponents' evasiveness, its accuracy can't be lowered, and it can hit Ghost types with Normal- and Fighting-type moves.
Supersweet Syrup: A sickly sweet scent spreads across the field the first time the Pokémon enters a battle, lowering the evasiveness of opposing Pokémon.
Hospitality: When the Pokémon enters a battle, it showers its ally with hospitality, restoring a small amount of the ally's HP.
Toxic Chain: The power of the Pokémon's toxic chain may badly poison any target the Pokémon hits with a move.
Embody Aspect - Teal Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Teal Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Speed stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Wellspring Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Wellspring Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Sp. Def stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Hearthflame Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Hearthflame Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Attack stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Cornerstone Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Cornerstone Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Defense stat to be boosted.

Pokemon with new abilities:

Shiftry now has Wind Rider
Empoleon now has Competitive

New Moves:



Ogerpon Mechanics:

1. Orgerpon has 4 base forms:
- Teal Mask / No Mask (Grass-type)
- Wellspring Mask (Grass/Water-type)
- Hearthflame Mask (Grass/Fire-type)
- Cornerstone Mask (Grass/Rock-type)

2. Each base form has a different ability:

- Teal Mask (Defiant)
- Wellspring Mask (Water Absorb)
- Hearthflame Mask (Mold Breaker)
- Cornerstone Mask (Sturdy)

3. Ogerpon is in the Teal Mask form by default, and in order to have it appear in the other forms, it will need to be holding the Wellspring / Hearthflame / Cornerstone mask items. In other words, the pure Grass form is not item-locked, while the 3 forms require a held item.

4. Ogerpon cannot change its tera types. It is locked into:

- Grass (Teal Mask)
- Water (Wellspring Mask)
- Fire (Hearthflame Mask)
- Rock (Cornerstone Mask)

5. When Ogerpon terastilizes, it will gain a new ability, replacing the old one. Each of these new abilities will boost a stat by 1 stage every time Ogerpon comes in (think of Gen 8 Intrepid Sword/Dauntless Shield):

- Teal Mask (+1 Speed)
- Wellspring Mask (+1 Special Defense)
- Hearthflame Mask (+1 Attack)
- Cornerstone Mask (+1 Defense)

6. Ogerpon's signature move, Ivy Cudgel changes type depending on the mask that is held:

- Teal Mask (any item or no item) (Grass)
- Wellspring Mask (Water)
- Hearthflame Mask (Fire)
- Cornerstone Mask (Rock)

A short summary would be:

- In order to use Ogerpon's Embody Aspect abilities, it requires an item slot and it requires your terastalization, which is a very high opportunity cost compared to other pokemon. Ogerpon's tera type is also locked, meaning that it's not capable of running unexpected tera types. The Teal Mask (pure Grass-type) Orerpon is capable of running any item while being able to get the Speed Boost from Embody Aspect if it decides to terastilize, while the other 3 forms are all item locked.
Hearthflame Mask Ogerpon seems to be an incredibly threatening mon against stall. SD plus grass type attacks for the waters and fire type attacks for corviknight and similar, and mold breaker to ignore dondozo's ability sounds like stall would be back to the drawing board, unless this forme just gets banned. Teal Mask Ogerpon also feels like an Iron Valiant of sorts, hopefully a healthy presence.

Still trying to understand, do the various mask forms of Ogerpon have dual typings? or do they start off as grass type and turn into the type of their mask once they tera?
 
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New Abilities:

Mind's Eye
: The Pokémon ignores changes to opponents' evasiveness, its accuracy can't be lowered, and it can hit Ghost types with Normal- and Fighting-type moves.
Supersweet Syrup: A sickly sweet scent spreads across the field the first time the Pokémon enters a battle, lowering the evasiveness of opposing Pokémon.
Hospitality: When the Pokémon enters a battle, it showers its ally with hospitality, restoring a small amount of the ally's HP.
Toxic Chain: The power of the Pokémon's toxic chain may badly poison any target the Pokémon hits with a move.
Embody Aspect - Teal Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Teal Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Speed stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Wellspring Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Wellspring Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Sp. Def stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Hearthflame Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Hearthflame Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Attack stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Cornerstone Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Cornerstone Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Defense stat to be boosted.

Pokemon with new abilities:

Shiftry now has Wind Rider
Empoleon now has Competitive

New Moves:



Ogerpon Mechanics:

1. Orgerpon has 4 base forms:
- Teal Mask / No Mask (Grass-type)
- Wellspring Mask (Grass/Water-type)
- Hearthflame Mask (Grass/Fire-type)
- Cornerstone Mask (Grass/Rock-type)

2. Each base form has a different ability:

- Teal Mask (Defiant)
- Wellspring Mask (Water Absorb)
- Hearthflame Mask (Mold Breaker)
- Cornerstone Mask (Sturdy)

3. Ogerpon is in the Teal Mask form by default, and in order to have it appear in the other forms, it will need to be holding the Wellspring / Hearthflame / Cornerstone mask items. In other words, the pure Grass form is not item-locked, while the 3 forms require a held item.

4. Ogerpon cannot change its tera types. It is locked into:

- Grass (Teal Mask)
- Water (Wellspring Mask)
- Fire (Hearthflame Mask)
- Rock (Cornerstone Mask)

5. When Ogerpon terastilizes, it will gain a new ability, replacing the old one. Each of these new abilities will boost a stat by 1 stage every time Ogerpon comes in (think of Gen 8 Intrepid Sword/Dauntless Shield):

- Teal Mask (+1 Speed)
- Wellspring Mask (+1 Special Defense)
- Hearthflame Mask (+1 Attack)
- Cornerstone Mask (+1 Defense)

6. Ogerpon's signature move, Ivy Cudgel changes type depending on the mask that is held:

- Teal Mask (any item or no item) (Grass)
- Wellspring Mask (Water)
- Hearthflame Mask (Fire)
- Cornerstone Mask (Rock)

A short summary would be:

- In order to use Ogerpon's Embody Aspect abilities, it requires an item slot and it requires your terastalization, which is a very high opportunity cost compared to other pokemon. Ogerpon's tera type is also locked, meaning that it's not capable of running unexpected tera types. The Teal Mask (pure Grass-type) Orerpon is capable of running any item while being able to get the Speed Boost from Embody Aspect if it decides to terastilize, while the other 3 forms are all item locked.
1694640993828.png
Typo here, and also in the last couple lines you spelt it "Orerpon" by accident and also mispelled terastallize as "terastilize"
 
Hearthflame Mask Ogerpon seems to be an incredibly threatening mon against stall. SD plus grass type attacks for the waters and fire type attacks for corviknight and similar, and mold breaker to ignore dondozo's ability sounds like stall would be back to the drawing board, unless this forme just gets banned. Teal Mask Ogerpon also feels like an Iron Valiant of sorts, hopefully a healthy presence.

Still trying to understand, do the various mask forms of Ogerpon have dual typings? or do they start off as grass type and turn into the type of their mask once they tera?
The masked forms are dual typings. Basically Ogerpon gains a type depending on the mask (except Teal). It just changes her Tera type to the mask she wears automatically.
 
Bax absolutely hates hazards so I wouldn't use Loaded Dice for just Icicle Spear, but Scale Shot changes the calculation there a ton and I know I'd switch to Dice for however long it might remain in OU.

I wonder how much Empoleon getting Roost will matter. It has a great defensive typing and now finally has recovery but the meta seems way to hostile to it.

Losing Roost does hurt Gliscor, but gaining two hazards has to be enough to make up for it. Honestly, its toolkit is just super deep and it has the stats to do a ton of different things.
 
The masked forms are dual typings. Basically Ogerpon gains a type depending on the mask (except Teal). It just changes her Tera type to the mask she wears automatically.
But once it teras, does it keep a dual typing or does it lose the grass type? This was the main thing I've been puzzled about, since keeping those type combinations sounds great, especially for the defensive masks.
 
Some fun questions to get us started off. Also while we're at it, try to stay on track and avoid too many 1-liners and such. If you plan on memeing, I expect only the highest quality of memes from you all. Have a fun one

1. If I forgot/missed anything or if you think I should anything to the first 2 posts, feel free to share
2. What are you excited for most?
3. What are your expectations regarding hyper offense?
4. What are your expectations regarding bulky offense?
5. What are your expectations regarding balance?
6. What are yuor expectations regarding stall?
7. What former OU mon(s) are you expecting to plummet to UU or below?
8. Which mon(s) if any do you believe will get banned by the end of the month?
9. Is Knock Off enough to save Tyranitar from falling to UU?
10. Did you enjoy the Teal Mask DLC? Either way, I hope you enjoy the new changes for OU and have a nice day
Pretty excited to see how the dlc meta shapes up honestly!

2. Feels fully to say it with the bear in UU, but Bloodmoon Ursa seems pretty fun to play with. Having actual recovery and strong stabs seems like it has potential, especially with tera (mainly fairy) to aid it, and hey it does get moonblast.
3. I'm not looking forward to the many new HO Pokemon getting introduced, but I also expect players will be able to find ways to handle it. At least after the most broken stuff leaves.
4. I think BO did get some great boosts with new and returning mons. Lots of pivoting teammates, spikes users and abusers, and a ton of fresh knock off. Some of the new Pokemon look interesting as far as options go.
5. I'm with Srn about balance. I'm hoping to be proven wrong with players adapting and building structures that can withstand the metagame, but I'm not confident. Simply not enough reliable removal options. Mola exists but I'm not sure that's enough.
6. Split on stall. Mola is a big buff with what it got, and clef is back too, but the influx of knock off and lack of removal tools make me think it will still be a really uphill battle.
7. Weird as it is to say, I actually expect Glimmora to drop off. Gliscor is a huge problem to its existence as it can deny itz hazards with taunt and even set its own, but also it just sort of has been falling for a while and the increased power level and competition makes me think its time is up.
8. Bax cough cough. I wish I could say Gambit but that ship sailed probably.
9. It'll be good in UU, but I doubt Ttar will have any role still in OU. It's just too flawed
10. Haven't had a chance to play it really, mostly just glimpsed at it a bit last night.
 
All the new mons from the dlc so far are kinda mid to bad, I assume the true stuff will come with the next part of the dlc..
Kommo-o would like to have a word with you, I personally think it will be good
Also Jirachi, and Empoleon, and yeah.
Also, do the showdown coder folks have an accurate datamine yet?
 
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I am interested to see what comes from the Loyal Three and Ogerpon, especially the latter with Embody Aspect once it teras giving it Tera Blast on steroids with a high crit rate. I think Heartflame and Teal are prolly the better ones via their aspects being Attack and Speed respectively with no downsides like current Intrepid Sword and Dauntless Shield where it is once per battle.

Not to mention, each of the three elemental masks gives Ogerpon some uses in certain weather. Hearthflame and Wellspring benefitting from the extra power given by Sun and Rain while Cornerstone can benefit from the added Special Defense from sand. Having what's essentially an elemental earthquake with and higher crit chance. I think this mon has some potential to at least do good work in OU, although I don't see it being Top 10 or even 15 myself.
 
Manaphy will be quickbanned after 1 week lol.
Broken duo Baxca + A-Ninetales, can't wait to test it ! :)

Kommo-O and Were-Ursaluna will be funny too. And cute new mon Ogerpon intrigues me.

Also hyped by the return of broken Zapdos in Rain teams.
 
alright y'all hear me out: cornerstone mask ogerpon in sand. you get boosted def. and sp.def, leading to one tanky mon, especially if you run some hp investment

You could run a bulky utility set with max hp and either max def or spdef, and any combination of ivy cudgel, synthesis, u-turn, spikes, sandstorm, knock off, leech seed, power whip, wood hammer, superpower, and even low kick

You could run fast utility with the same moves but max speed and hp

You could run bulky offense with max hp and attack, with SD + 2 attacks + synthesis or SD + 3 attacks

And finally, you can run fast offense with SD + 2 attacks + synthesis, SD + 3 attacks, or even SD + 2 attacks + u turn

Im pretty excited to mess around with this mon. still looking for good partners in sand
 
here's some various ogerpon calcs:

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 510-600 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 172-203 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon-Cornerstone Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 216-255 (54.1 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Ogerpon Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 242-288 (48 - 57.1%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 298-352 (78.8 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon-Cornerstone Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 350-414 (102 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 440-522 (101.3 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 368-434 (84.7 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes

I'm not saying he's perfect. I'm saying there's potential
 

Karxrida

Eventide (art by @kzhjp)
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Fully expect Gliscor to make a huge splash. It retained Knock Off and Toxic, is probably one the best Knock Off absorbers, and also got Spikes and Toxic Spikes to be an annoying little bugger. Also has a bunch of random coverage moves for further customization if you really want to fuck with something. Only things it lost are Roost and Defog, but I think it can get away with not having the former (especially if you decide to run Protect). Should be super easy to slap onto a team.
 
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