Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Greninja is a decent pokemon with a few options but its manageable. Having said that, my well prepared teams have probably lost 5 games in the past month singularly to a poorly timed dark pulse flinch (or 2 in a row). Dark pulse is a gross move. Any fast pokemon with a flinch move is gross. I'm not calling flinch broken Actually I am fuck flinch but slow defensive pokemon have something to fear when they switch in on darkrais nasty plot or sub, because theres no guarantee they'll move the next turn. or the turn after that. And if they do, theyll need to be doing more damage than darkrai can do to them.

And one point i havent seen mentioned, people call darkrais ability useless, but there is a gross synergy with amoongus spore, its gets regen on the way out and you deal 1/8th on the way in, negating the need to even run life orb for the extra damage.
Amoongus also can eat up moves from mons that threaten or annoy Darkai, such as Zamazenta, Iron Valiant and Clefable (meanwhile Darkrai being immune to Future Sight and Psyshock). They have decent defensive synergy with each other.
 

Exotic64

MDRRRRRRRR
is a Tiering Contributor
I'd like to give my honest thoughts on Darkrai as a 'mon right now. It was a while back where there was a lot of about dropping Darkrai, with great posts from Vert and Mimikyu Stardust. Initially I had thought these posts were pretty far-fetched; the same special attack stat as flutter mane whilst speed tying with Weaville does not seem balanced at first glance, however after being part of the vanguard for my OUPL team with cooking up teambuilding ideas for the OU Suspect Tier in OUPL, as well as witnessing games with Darkrai played during OUPL, and having discussions with other players about Darkrai, I believe Darkrai would be fine for the tier, and should be considered for a drop when DLC2 comes around.
My biggest issue with Darkrai is its frankly atrocious single-typing, which is not amazing defensive or offensively.
Some people in this thread have compared Darkrai to Iron Bundle or Spectrier, which I believe is very crazy, considering the fact that Iron Bundle's Water/Ice coverage has no resistances, and Spectrier's Ghost type STAB Shadow Balls are very spammable, with a super high speed stat too, as well as gaining access to powerful Draining Kisses and being able to Tera and Tera Blast for extra coverage and a better typing. The former offers much better utility than Darkrai as well, having fast encore as well as Flip Turn, a great pivot move, making Iron Bundle not only great offensively but also being able to keep up momentum and stop sweeps instantly, complemented well by its fast speed.
Darkrai, unlike Iron Bundle, also has a useless ability of Bad Dreams, which is only good after you hit the 60% Hypnosis. As the person who made Hypnosis Ival get spammed on the ladder when DLC1 came out, I must say that I used that set only as a way to flip matchups when they are already lost (such as Amoongus, Toxapex, Glowking, Heatran etc.) whilst having a chance to get a positive gain from them (getting CM and potentially breaking through the aforementioned threats) without having to lose momentum by switching out and wasting the booster energy. Darkrai on the other hand has terrible 4mss - if you choose to run Hypnosis, you are forced to run Nasty Plot or else you will do 0 damage whatsoever due to Darkrai's main stab move of Dark Pulse being resisted by 50% of the tier's offenses. It's final moveslot will have to be sludge bomb so you have a reliable way to hit fairies, however that leaves you being vulnerable to Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, and the myriad of other resists. Either that or you run something like Focus Blast and get shit on by Fairies; its a similar situation to Iron Valiant and Gholdengo however the difference is that Iron Valiant has access to Booster Energy, which lets you revenge kill pretty much everything with its great typing and movepool; something Darkrai is unlikely to do despite its expansive movepool.
In that case, let's check out the scenario where you just accept Darkrai's ability to be trash and use NP with 3 attacks, Dark Pulse, Sludge, Focus Blast. Here players will be lead to the next point of concern; Darkrai's mediocre bulk. The best answer to Darkrai will frankly be priority - something that every team by now should have, whether it be a Rillaboom Grassy Glide, Dnite Espeed, Scizor BP, Gambit sucker etc. If Darkrai was to be released, the player base will pretty quickly adapt and put reliable revenge killing on each team - not like this isn't already the case, with Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Booster Tusk, Scarf Enam etc. It feels so weird to say this, but Darkrai's speed is frankly not on par with real sweepers, which are well over the 500s, and it doesn't help that it has a terrible typing that makes it lose to literally everything else offensively as well.
I have been seeing many walls of calcs but they are all with life orb - which shows that even at +2 it needs to utilise an offensive boosting item to make the best use of its offenses and high speed, which puts you at a disadvantage by not using boots, and completely folding to the hazard metagame. This is of course not taking into account mons faster than Darkrai, such as Dragapult and Zamazenta, being able to revenge kill it too without expending an item, the latter definitely being one of the better checks thanks to its dark resistance.
Darkrai dropping would not completely overwhelm the metagame to a point where it collapses on itself, such as what happened to Blood Moon. Darkrai's introduction to the SVOU metagame would see it be a potent balance/fat counter with NP and Taunt, as well as being a solid mon in general. It would also have heaps of counterplay, such as lack of recovery leading to chip wearing it down, priority moves overwhelming it due to its lacklustre defenses, 4MSS, no ability unless you want to fish for luck, too slow for the booster energy offensive mons etc.
There has also been some mentions of choiced sets, such as Specs or Scarf. I truly believe these are utterly trash seeing how bad Dark is as a type to spam, and being locked into a move on a mon especially like Darkrai would be detrimental, although I would see Scarf having a niche. On top of this, I have seen people who say "Darkrai has been Ubers forever why drop it now", maybe this is a clear sign of Gamefreak's power creep - this is not a valid argument imo.
As someone constantly searching for new ideas and seeking for creative teambuilding, I do think Darkrai dropping would add value to the OU metagame, being a niche answer to Balance and Fat whilst having plenty of counterplay, like I mentioned above. Needing to utilise a Life Orb for maximum damage is also not great, as Darkrai would fit heaps better with a boots set, leading it to miss out on important 1HKOs at +2 that would be achieved with a LO, at the expense of succumbing to the common hazard-stack archetype. Respectfully, comparing it to Iron Bundle really isn't helpful considering the insane difference between the two. At least Iron Bundle has good defensive bulk, letting it live Espeeds and Sucker Punches. Looking forward to Annihilape and Giritina-O week - those mons are what is considered too much for OU, not Darkrai.
 
it's wild that we are seeing people clamoring for a quickban on gholdengo and an unban on genesect either in the same posts or within the same week in this thread

gholdengo is very much suspect worthy and deserves a deeper dive for sure, but genesect is a bonafide Uber with no place in OU that has only gotten better with more years under its belt and only proved itself to be more broken

this is some wild recency bias...
but my man is BROKE!

genesect has LOST shift gear (i think), uhhh i think shift gear? i think most event moves.

the issue is that it gets a free choice specs/choice band boost for entering in at the right time... and it can run an item.... and has insane coverage.... and can change its type now.... hmm maybe this thing has no competitive merit in OU!

gholdengo should gholdenGO still but i want to see a suspect done because i feel there is a 150+ page topic waiting to be made for that suspect regarding its impact to the metagame.

a gholdengo QB is begging for another reaction on par with the volcarona QB.
 
If Magearna can drop at the beginning of HOME, despite two gens of brokenness/near-brokenness and a few key buffs, I would not be opposed to dropping Genesect based on principle alone. The same applies to Lando-I, really; losing Rock Polish for Nasty Plot is a direct downgrade as it already tears through 90% of the tier with Sheer Force and a Life Orb, but has a speed tier that is increasingly getting crept by other offensive mons. Obviously I doubt either of them will last for very long, and in this thread and the HOME one you can find my rants about how most chronic Ubers are still Uber-worthy even with power creep, but it makes sense on principle.

Also, do we have direct confirmation the Tapus are coming back?
 
I'd like to give my honest thoughts on Darkrai as a 'mon right now. It was a while back where there was a lot of about dropping Darkrai, with great posts from Vert and Mimikyu Stardust. Initially I had thought these posts were pretty far-fetched; the same special attack stat as flutter mane whilst speed tying with Weaville does not seem balanced at first glance, however after being part of the vanguard for my OUPL team with cooking up teambuilding ideas for the OU Suspect Tier in OUPL, as well as witnessing games with Darkrai played during OUPL, and having discussions with other players about Darkrai, I believe Darkrai would be fine for the tier, and should be considered for a drop when DLC2 comes around.
My biggest issue with Darkrai is its frankly atrocious single-typing, which is not amazing defensive or offensively.
Some people in this thread have compared Darkrai to Iron Bundle or Spectrier, which I believe is very crazy, considering the fact that Iron Bundle's Water/Ice coverage has no resistances, and Spectrier's Ghost type STAB Shadow Balls are very spammable, with a super high speed stat too, as well as gaining access to powerful Draining Kisses and being able to Tera and Tera Blast for extra coverage and a better typing. The former offers much better utility than Darkrai as well, having fast encore as well as Flip Turn, a great pivot move, making Iron Bundle not only great offensively but also being able to keep up momentum and stop sweeps instantly, complemented well by its fast speed.
Darkrai, unlike Iron Bundle, also has a useless ability of Bad Dreams, which is only good after you hit the 60% Hypnosis. As the person who made Hypnosis Ival get spammed on the ladder when DLC1 came out, I must say that I used that set only as a way to flip matchups when they are already lost (such as Amoongus, Toxapex, Glowking, Heatran etc.) whilst having a chance to get a positive gain from them (getting CM and potentially breaking through the aforementioned threats) without having to lose momentum by switching out and wasting the booster energy. Darkrai on the other hand has terrible 4mss - if you choose to run Hypnosis, you are forced to run Nasty Plot or else you will do 0 damage whatsoever due to Darkrai's main stab move of Dark Pulse being resisted by 50% of the tier's offenses. It's final moveslot will have to be sludge bomb so you have a reliable way to hit fairies, however that leaves you being vulnerable to Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, and the myriad of other resists. Either that or you run something like Focus Blast and get shit on by Fairies; its a similar situation to Iron Valiant and Gholdengo however the difference is that Iron Valiant has access to Booster Energy, which lets you revenge kill pretty much everything with its great typing and movepool; something Darkrai is unlikely to do despite its expansive movepool.
In that case, let's check out the scenario where you just accept Darkrai's ability to be trash and use NP with 3 attacks, Dark Pulse, Sludge, Focus Blast. Here players will be lead to the next point of concern; Darkrai's mediocre bulk. The best answer to Darkrai will frankly be priority - something that every team by now should have, whether it be a Rillaboom Grassy Glide, Dnite Espeed, Scizor BP, Gambit sucker etc. If Darkrai was to be released, the player base will pretty quickly adapt and put reliable revenge killing on each team - not like this isn't already the case, with Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Booster Tusk, Scarf Enam etc. It feels so weird to say this, but Darkrai's speed is frankly not on par with real sweepers, which are well over the 500s, and it doesn't help that it has a terrible typing that makes it lose to literally everything else offensively as well.
I have been seeing many walls of calcs but they are all with life orb - which shows that even at +2 it needs to utilise an offensive boosting item to make the best use of its offenses and high speed, which puts you at a disadvantage by not using boots, and completely folding to the hazard metagame. This is of course not taking into account mons faster than Darkrai, such as Dragapult and Zamazenta, being able to revenge kill it too without expending an item, the latter definitely being one of the better checks thanks to its dark resistance.
Darkrai dropping would not completely overwhelm the metagame to a point where it collapses on itself, such as what happened to Blood Moon. Darkrai's introduction to the SVOU metagame would see it be a potent balance/fat counter with NP and Taunt, as well as being a solid mon in general. It would also have heaps of counterplay, such as lack of recovery leading to chip wearing it down, priority moves overwhelming it due to its lacklustre defenses, 4MSS, no ability unless you want to fish for luck, too slow for the booster energy offensive mons etc.
There has also been some mentions of choiced sets, such as Specs or Scarf. I truly believe these are utterly trash seeing how bad Dark is as a type to spam, and being locked into a move on a mon especially like Darkrai would be detrimental, although I would see Scarf having a niche. On top of this, I have seen people who say "Darkrai has been Ubers forever why drop it now", maybe this is a clear sign of Gamefreak's power creep - this is not a valid argument imo.
As someone constantly searching for new ideas and seeking for creative teambuilding, I do think Darkrai dropping would add value to the OU metagame, being a niche answer to Balance and Fat whilst having plenty of counterplay, like I mentioned above. Needing to utilise a Life Orb for maximum damage is also not great, as Darkrai would fit heaps better with a boots set, leading it to miss out on important 1HKOs at +2 that would be achieved with a LO, at the expense of succumbing to the common hazard-stack archetype. Respectfully, comparing it to Iron Bundle really isn't helpful considering the insane difference between the two. At least Iron Bundle has good defensive bulk, letting it live Espeeds and Sucker Punches. Looking forward to Annihilape and Giritina-O week - those mons are what is considered too much for OU, not Darkrai.
I'm sorry but a lot of this is rubbish. you cant call dark type a terrible offensive typing for only hitting 50% of the metagame. fairies and fighting types owe their place in the metagame to offensive dark types, which have ravaged this tier since SV dropped. chien pao, chi yu, roaring moon and one bastard thats still here, topping the usage rankings.. also read my post above? darkrais ability is not useless as we have more reliable means of sleep in OU than ubers does.

also, youve mentioned that iron bundle has the bulk to let it live "espeeds and sucker punches" but darkrai actually takes less from sucker punch since it resists it? and it takes less from grassy glide too.

You absolutely dont need to run life orb for damage. nasty plot + psyshock hammers blissey, you can force it to tera dark but making a blissey tera is a desperate play for a stall team, you can start hitting it supereffectively with those fairy and fighting types you've told us are everywhere...
 

Exotic64

MDRRRRRRRR
is a Tiering Contributor
I'm sorry but a lot of this is rubbish. you cant call dark type a terrible offensive typing for only hitting 50% of the metagame. fairies and fighting types owe their place in the metagame to offensive dark types, which have ravaged this tier since SV dropped. chien pao, chi yu, roaring moon and one bastard thats still here, topping the usage rankings.. also read my post above? darkrais ability is not useless as we have more reliable means of sleep in OU than ubers does.

also, youve mentioned that iron bundle has the bulk to let it live "espeeds and sucker punches" but darkrai actually takes less from sucker punch since it resists it? and it takes less from grassy glide too.

You absolutely dont need to run life orb for damage. nasty plot + psyshock hammers blissey, you can force it to tera dark but making a blissey tera is a desperate play for a stall team, you can start hitting it supereffectively with those fairy and fighting types you've told us are everywhere...
You must be delusional if you think pure dark is a good type; do you not realise the other dark types u mentioned are carried by their other type? Moon acrobatics, chien icicle crash/spinner, gambit sucker and ihead
u go nasty plot psyshock dpulse sludge and all of a sudden every dark type walls ur ass, or u go focus blast and u cant touch any fairies, not to mention u die to every priority anyways
darkrai is good into balance, loses to Ho which isnt even great rn, and plus u can only sleep one mon at a time
 
You must be delusional if you think pure dark is a good type; do you not realise the other dark types u mentioned are carried by their other type? Moon acrobatics, chien icicle crash/spinner, gambit sucker and ihead
u go nasty plot psyshock dpulse sludge and all of a sudden every dark type walls ur ass, or u go focus blast and u cant touch any fairies, not to mention u die to every priority anyways
darkrai is good into balance, loses to Ho which isnt even great rn, and plus u can only sleep one mon at a time
i seem to remember the tera dark crunch choice band set being the breaking point for chien pao. roaring moon isnt even flying thats tera, and again it was knock off that broke that mon, it was UUBL before it got that. Gambit is not good from iron head, ive seen plenty of sets without iron head but i've never seen gambit without sucker punch or kowtow. tera blast fairy/flying breaks it but thats a different discussion. h samurott is another one spamming dark moves. Since i dont personally require 1 broken pokemon to win me the game id probably drop sludgebomb for substitute and use something else to remove fairies.
 
i seem to remember the tera dark crunch choice band set being the breaking point for chien pao. roaring moon isnt even flying thats tera, and again it was knock off that broke that mon, it was UUBL before it got that. Gambit is not good from iron head, ive seen plenty of sets without iron head but i've never seen gambit without sucker punch or kowtow. tera blast fairy/flying breaks it but thats a different discussion. h samurott is another one spamming dark moves. Since i dont personally require 1 broken pokemon to win me the game id probably drop sludgebomb for substitute and use something else to remove fairies.
Tera Dark CB Chien-Pao was strong, but manageable, arguably not banworthy on its own due to being chipped down so fast from Rocks, Helmet, potential baneful bunker, etc. Boots Chien-Pao, on the other hand, was impossible to deal with because it could switch moves and avoided chip, while still being strong AF and being able to use a potential defensive Tera for SD. I think that Boots is what made Chien broken, not Band.
 
Tera Dark CB Chien-Pao was strong, but manageable, arguably not banworthy on its own due to being chipped down so fast from Rocks, Helmet, potential baneful bunker, etc. Boots Chien-Pao, on the other hand, was impossible to deal with because it could switch moves and avoided chip, while still being strong AF and being able to use a potential defensive Tera for SD. I think that Boots is what made Chien broken, not Band.
i would say both contributed, since you could never tell what Pao is packing without hazards up, so there was chance of tera dark banded crunch on the switch or SD.
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
I'd like to give my honest thoughts on Darkrai as a 'mon right now. It was a while back where there was a lot of about dropping Darkrai, with great posts from Vert and Mimikyu Stardust. Initially I had thought these posts were pretty far-fetched; the same special attack stat as flutter mane whilst speed tying with Weaville does not seem balanced at first glance, however after being part of the vanguard for my OUPL team with cooking up teambuilding ideas for the OU Suspect Tier in OUPL, as well as witnessing games with Darkrai played during OUPL, and having discussions with other players about Darkrai, I believe Darkrai would be fine for the tier, and should be considered for a drop when DLC2 comes around.
My biggest issue with Darkrai is its frankly atrocious single-typing, which is not amazing defensive or offensively.
Some people in this thread have compared Darkrai to Iron Bundle or Spectrier, which I believe is very crazy, considering the fact that Iron Bundle's Water/Ice coverage has no resistances, and Spectrier's Ghost type STAB Shadow Balls are very spammable, with a super high speed stat too, as well as gaining access to powerful Draining Kisses and being able to Tera and Tera Blast for extra coverage and a better typing. The former offers much better utility than Darkrai as well, having fast encore as well as Flip Turn, a great pivot move, making Iron Bundle not only great offensively but also being able to keep up momentum and stop sweeps instantly, complemented well by its fast speed.
Darkrai, unlike Iron Bundle, also has a useless ability of Bad Dreams, which is only good after you hit the 60% Hypnosis. As the person who made Hypnosis Ival get spammed on the ladder when DLC1 came out, I must say that I used that set only as a way to flip matchups when they are already lost (such as Amoongus, Toxapex, Glowking, Heatran etc.) whilst having a chance to get a positive gain from them (getting CM and potentially breaking through the aforementioned threats) without having to lose momentum by switching out and wasting the booster energy. Darkrai on the other hand has terrible 4mss - if you choose to run Hypnosis, you are forced to run Nasty Plot or else you will do 0 damage whatsoever due to Darkrai's main stab move of Dark Pulse being resisted by 50% of the tier's offenses. It's final moveslot will have to be sludge bomb so you have a reliable way to hit fairies, however that leaves you being vulnerable to Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, and the myriad of other resists. Either that or you run something like Focus Blast and get shit on by Fairies; its a similar situation to Iron Valiant and Gholdengo however the difference is that Iron Valiant has access to Booster Energy, which lets you revenge kill pretty much everything with its great typing and movepool; something Darkrai is unlikely to do despite its expansive movepool.
In that case, let's check out the scenario where you just accept Darkrai's ability to be trash and use NP with 3 attacks, Dark Pulse, Sludge, Focus Blast. Here players will be lead to the next point of concern; Darkrai's mediocre bulk. The best answer to Darkrai will frankly be priority - something that every team by now should have, whether it be a Rillaboom Grassy Glide, Dnite Espeed, Scizor BP, Gambit sucker etc. If Darkrai was to be released, the player base will pretty quickly adapt and put reliable revenge killing on each team - not like this isn't already the case, with Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Booster Tusk, Scarf Enam etc. It feels so weird to say this, but Darkrai's speed is frankly not on par with real sweepers, which are well over the 500s, and it doesn't help that it has a terrible typing that makes it lose to literally everything else offensively as well.
I have been seeing many walls of calcs but they are all with life orb - which shows that even at +2 it needs to utilise an offensive boosting item to make the best use of its offenses and high speed, which puts you at a disadvantage by not using boots, and completely folding to the hazard metagame. This is of course not taking into account mons faster than Darkrai, such as Dragapult and Zamazenta, being able to revenge kill it too without expending an item, the latter definitely being one of the better checks thanks to its dark resistance.
Darkrai dropping would not completely overwhelm the metagame to a point where it collapses on itself, such as what happened to Blood Moon. Darkrai's introduction to the SVOU metagame would see it be a potent balance/fat counter with NP and Taunt, as well as being a solid mon in general. It would also have heaps of counterplay, such as lack of recovery leading to chip wearing it down, priority moves overwhelming it due to its lacklustre defenses, 4MSS, no ability unless you want to fish for luck, too slow for the booster energy offensive mons etc.
There has also been some mentions of choiced sets, such as Specs or Scarf. I truly believe these are utterly trash seeing how bad Dark is as a type to spam, and being locked into a move on a mon especially like Darkrai would be detrimental, although I would see Scarf having a niche. On top of this, I have seen people who say "Darkrai has been Ubers forever why drop it now", maybe this is a clear sign of Gamefreak's power creep - this is not a valid argument imo.
As someone constantly searching for new ideas and seeking for creative teambuilding, I do think Darkrai dropping would add value to the OU metagame, being a niche answer to Balance and Fat whilst having plenty of counterplay, like I mentioned above. Needing to utilise a Life Orb for maximum damage is also not great, as Darkrai would fit heaps better with a boots set, leading it to miss out on important 1HKOs at +2 that would be achieved with a LO, at the expense of succumbing to the common hazard-stack archetype. Respectfully, comparing it to Iron Bundle really isn't helpful considering the insane difference between the two. At least Iron Bundle has good defensive bulk, letting it live Espeeds and Sucker Punches. Looking forward to Annihilape and Giritina-O week - those mons are what is considered too much for OU, not Darkrai.
I strongly disagree. First and foremost, Darkrai doesn't need to hold a Life Orb to be threatening at all. As I've said in my previous post, the Sub+NP set (or simply any set with NP + Dark Pulse and Focus Blast) is by far the best one, needing only one chance to get a +2 and potentially sweep entire teams. With that kinda set you could easily opt for Leftovers or HDB instead, with the latter being a particularly helpful answer to avoid Hazard chip damage and the very popular Sticky Web HO teams. HDB would also improve Darkrai's revenge-killing potential.
Second, you mention Iron Bundle's ability to resist priority moves due to its natural bulk, which is ironic considering that Dakrai is able to easily take Sucker Punches coming from Gambit (the best priority abuser in the meta), and it even lives both Tera Normal Extreme Speeds coming from Dnite at +1 and Banded Adamant Rillaboom's Grassy Glides. Speaking of the latter, I've seen many point out Grassy Glide's potential to RK Darkrai, but I strongly believe that most players would end up running Tera Poison on it, for the same reasons why Hydreigon loves to run it: it would turn Darkrai's Fairy, Fighting and Bug weaknesses into resistances, while also giving it a potential STAB on its Sludge Bomb (which is the best coverage move for a set running DP and Focus Blast), AND it would also provide Darkrai with a valuable Grass resistance that would come in handy precisely because of Rillaboom. Any skilled player would figure this out after a second, and it would quickly become its most popular Tera.
Third, its ability is as useless as most offensive mons' Pressure in Ubers. When you have those Stats, coverage and movepool, you don't really need an ability to carry you. Nonetheless, I think that Bad Dreams can still potentially be annoying if paired with a mon that can put to sleep opponents, which brings me to my fourth point, Amoonguss. Amoonguss, as people have said before me, has an amazing synergy with Darkrai due to its typing and Spore. It can check and threaten 3 of the 4 mons that would most likely end up becoming Darkrai's premiere answers, those being Clefable, Iron Valiant and Zamazenta. If Clef isn't running Unaware it gets stomped by Darkrai's Sub+NP set (keep in mind Tera Poison making things worse for Clef), but if it is running it then it gets threatened by Amoonguss' Spore. Iron Valiant has a lot of trouble breaking through Amoonguss, and it gets threaten by Sludge Bomb. Same goes for Zamazenta, which has a better matchup only if it's running the Sub+ID Tera Steel set. Amoonguss has also the potential to threaten Dragapult with a Spore if it gets the timing right, the latter being the 4th mon mentioned above as a solid answer to Darkrai. And will you look at that, Amoonguss ALSO checks Rillaboom.
Fifth, you mention Darkrai being a "niche answer to Balance and Fat" teams, which might as well be an even more idiotic statement than the Iron Bundle's comparison. Once again, you only need to run 2 sets, being the Sub+NP set with Dark Pulse and Focus Blast, or the NP+3 moves set with the aforementioned moves + Sludge Bomb for coverage. The first set allows you to survive any revenge-killing attempt from the 5/6 fellas faster than you (besides Dragapult), while also allowing you to sweep with an incredibly good spammable move in Dark Pulse, which is not even close to being a bad STAB move since it is resisted by only 3 typings, 2 of which get hit for neutral/supereffective damage by Focus Blast, and it has a solid 20% flinch chance. Focus Blast also allows you to 1v1 the likes of Ting-Lu, Blissey, Heatran and Gambit. The second set gives you better coverage for all of the Fairy-types out there. Once you get a chance to Sub and/or NP, Stall and Balance teams have the potential to lose on the spot. HO, on the other hand, doesn't have mons able to take hits coming from a +2 Darkrai, and Speed control isn't a problem because:
sixth and final point, 125 Base Speed is absolutely insane and you're crazy if you think that it's just "meh". You outspeed literally every mon in the meta outside of Dragapult, Zamazenta and your Paradox mon of choice, and once again most of those mons get checked by Amoonguss in the first place. You can also run Sticky Web or any other form of Speed control of your own, it's not like using Darkrai prevents you from making any other strategy. Furthermore, mons like Hydreigon and Pao used to be insanely good in the early stages of the Gen 9 meta, and the first had pretty much the same strategy with a Base 98 Speed, while the second loved running Adamant specifically because it had so few mons to fear in terms of Speed.
The arguments provided in support of Darkrai in OU are simply trash considering the current meta, and theorymonning on the post-DLC2 meta so early is absolutely pointless. The best course of action is to wait and value potential drops afterwards.
 
darkrai's dark pulse is a bit different than boosted chien-pao's crunch or roaring moon's boosted knock off methink
those pokemon obviously have some other buffs such as their ability/ booster, but youre agreeing that their most potent move was dark type. its a good offensive type, and it was their most potent option. exotic64 doesnt seem to think so. If you decide to drop darkrai and its fine after 2 months, quote me and ill publicly admit i was wrong. My opinion now is that its throwing petrol on the fire. time will tell
 
I'd like to give my honest thoughts on Darkrai as a 'mon right now. It was a while back where there was a lot of about dropping Darkrai, with great posts from Vert and Mimikyu Stardust. Initially I had thought these posts were pretty far-fetched; the same special attack stat as flutter mane whilst speed tying with Weaville does not seem balanced at first glance, however after being part of the vanguard for my OUPL team with cooking up teambuilding ideas for the OU Suspect Tier in OUPL, as well as witnessing games with Darkrai played during OUPL, and having discussions with other players about Darkrai, I believe Darkrai would be fine for the tier, and should be considered for a drop when DLC2 comes around.
My biggest issue with Darkrai is its frankly atrocious single-typing, which is not amazing defensive or offensively.
Some people in this thread have compared Darkrai to Iron Bundle or Spectrier, which I believe is very crazy, considering the fact that Iron Bundle's Water/Ice coverage has no resistances, and Spectrier's Ghost type STAB Shadow Balls are very spammable, with a super high speed stat too, as well as gaining access to powerful Draining Kisses and being able to Tera and Tera Blast for extra coverage and a better typing. The former offers much better utility than Darkrai as well, having fast encore as well as Flip Turn, a great pivot move, making Iron Bundle not only great offensively but also being able to keep up momentum and stop sweeps instantly, complemented well by its fast speed.
Darkrai, unlike Iron Bundle, also has a useless ability of Bad Dreams, which is only good after you hit the 60% Hypnosis. As the person who made Hypnosis Ival get spammed on the ladder when DLC1 came out, I must say that I used that set only as a way to flip matchups when they are already lost (such as Amoongus, Toxapex, Glowking, Heatran etc.) whilst having a chance to get a positive gain from them (getting CM and potentially breaking through the aforementioned threats) without having to lose momentum by switching out and wasting the booster energy. Darkrai on the other hand has terrible 4mss - if you choose to run Hypnosis, you are forced to run Nasty Plot or else you will do 0 damage whatsoever due to Darkrai's main stab move of Dark Pulse being resisted by 50% of the tier's offenses. It's final moveslot will have to be sludge bomb so you have a reliable way to hit fairies, however that leaves you being vulnerable to Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, and the myriad of other resists. Either that or you run something like Focus Blast and get shit on by Fairies; its a similar situation to Iron Valiant and Gholdengo however the difference is that Iron Valiant has access to Booster Energy, which lets you revenge kill pretty much everything with its great typing and movepool; something Darkrai is unlikely to do despite its expansive movepool.
In that case, let's check out the scenario where you just accept Darkrai's ability to be trash and use NP with 3 attacks, Dark Pulse, Sludge, Focus Blast. Here players will be lead to the next point of concern; Darkrai's mediocre bulk. The best answer to Darkrai will frankly be priority - something that every team by now should have, whether it be a Rillaboom Grassy Glide, Dnite Espeed, Scizor BP, Gambit sucker etc. If Darkrai was to be released, the player base will pretty quickly adapt and put reliable revenge killing on each team - not like this isn't already the case, with Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Booster Tusk, Scarf Enam etc. It feels so weird to say this, but Darkrai's speed is frankly not on par with real sweepers, which are well over the 500s, and it doesn't help that it has a terrible typing that makes it lose to literally everything else offensively as well.
I have been seeing many walls of calcs but they are all with life orb - which shows that even at +2 it needs to utilise an offensive boosting item to make the best use of its offenses and high speed, which puts you at a disadvantage by not using boots, and completely folding to the hazard metagame. This is of course not taking into account mons faster than Darkrai, such as Dragapult and Zamazenta, being able to revenge kill it too without expending an item, the latter definitely being one of the better checks thanks to its dark resistance.
Darkrai dropping would not completely overwhelm the metagame to a point where it collapses on itself, such as what happened to Blood Moon. Darkrai's introduction to the SVOU metagame would see it be a potent balance/fat counter with NP and Taunt, as well as being a solid mon in general. It would also have heaps of counterplay, such as lack of recovery leading to chip wearing it down, priority moves overwhelming it due to its lacklustre defenses, 4MSS, no ability unless you want to fish for luck, too slow for the booster energy offensive mons etc.
There has also been some mentions of choiced sets, such as Specs or Scarf. I truly believe these are utterly trash seeing how bad Dark is as a type to spam, and being locked into a move on a mon especially like Darkrai would be detrimental, although I would see Scarf having a niche. On top of this, I have seen people who say "Darkrai has been Ubers forever why drop it now", maybe this is a clear sign of Gamefreak's power creep - this is not a valid argument imo.
As someone constantly searching for new ideas and seeking for creative teambuilding, I do think Darkrai dropping would add value to the OU metagame, being a niche answer to Balance and Fat whilst having plenty of counterplay, like I mentioned above. Needing to utilise a Life Orb for maximum damage is also not great, as Darkrai would fit heaps better with a boots set, leading it to miss out on important 1HKOs at +2 that would be achieved with a LO, at the expense of succumbing to the common hazard-stack archetype. Respectfully, comparing it to Iron Bundle really isn't helpful considering the insane difference between the two. At least Iron Bundle has good defensive bulk, letting it live Espeeds and Sucker Punches. Looking forward to Annihilape and Giritina-O week - those mons are what is considered too much for OU, not Darkrai.
Appreciate the in-depth thoughts. However, when you mention Darkrai’s apparent 4mss without discussing tera possibilities, I feel that you are really overlooking Tera Blast Fairy. Darkrai doesn’t need coverage when Dark Pulse + Tera Blast Fairy hits the entire tier for either neutral or super effective. This completely does away with Darkrai’s 4mss since it really only needs the combination of Nasty Plot and those two attacks. A mono-dark typing is almost a non-issue in a tier when tera exists. And being forced to tera isn’t all that bad when it straight up wins you the game.
 

Exotic64

MDRRRRRRRR
is a Tiering Contributor
Appreciate the in-depth thoughts. However, when you mention Darkrai’s apparent 4mss without discussing tera possibilities, I feel that you are really overlooking Tera Blast Fairy. Darkrai doesn’t need coverage when Dark Pulse + Tera Blast Fairy hits the entire tier for either neutral or super effective. This completely does away with Darkrai’s 4mss since it really only needs the combination of Nasty Plot and those two attacks. A mono-dark typing is almost a non-issue in a tier when tera exists. And being forced to tera isn’t all that bad when it straight up wins you the game.
Talked to Srn in TrainerAid discord about this, whilst Tera Blast Fairy might seem good, I think Darkrai as a mon is too prone to being revenge killed and is too squishy anyways so the investment of Tera Blast might not be worth it, its also not as strong as stuff like Focus Blast (which also misses most the time). The main thing is Darkrai's speed; its a good speed but its outsped everything that beats it pretty much, and dropping focus blast makes u prone to Kingambit and TingLu, which +2 Fairy Blast is most definitely doesn't kill without a life orb, theres many matchups where Darkrai misses out the OHKO on important things at +2, such as Iron Moth, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Lando-t, Manaphy, Offensive Zapdos, Walking Wake etc. which all live on a roll or die on a roll.
Darkrai most certainly needs a life orb if it wants to be a sweeper.
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 277-327 (92 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 340-402 (95.2 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 292-345 (90.9 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 313-370 (91.5 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 306-360 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

Exotic64

MDRRRRRRRR
is a Tiering Contributor
I strongly disagree. First and foremost, Darkrai doesn't need to hold a Life Orb to be threatening at all. As I've said in my previous post, the Sub+NP set (or simply any set with NP + Dark Pulse and Focus Blast) is by far the best one, needing only one chance to get a +2 and potentially sweep entire teams. With that kinda set you could easily opt for Leftovers or HDB instead, with the latter being a particularly helpful answer to avoid Hazard chip damage and the very popular Sticky Web HO teams. HDB would also improve Darkrai's revenge-killing potential.
Second, you mention Iron Bundle's ability to resist priority moves due to its natural bulk, which is ironic considering that Dakrai is able to easily take Sucker Punches coming from Gambit (the best priority abuser in the meta), and it even lives both Tera Normal Extreme Speeds coming from Dnite at +1 and Banded Adamant Rillaboom's Grassy Glides. Speaking of the latter, I've seen many point out Grassy Glide's potential to RK Darkrai, but I strongly believe that most players would end up running Tera Poison on it, for the same reasons why Hydreigon loves to run it: it would turn Darkrai's Fairy, Fighting and Bug weaknesses into resistances, while also giving it a potential STAB on its Sludge Bomb (which is the best coverage move for a set running DP and Focus Blast), AND it would also provide Darkrai with a valuable Grass resistance that would come in handy precisely because of Rillaboom. Any skilled player would figure this out after a second, and it would quickly become its most popular Tera.
Third, its ability is as useless as most offensive mons' Pressure in Ubers. When you have those Stats, coverage and movepool, you don't really need an ability to carry you. Nonetheless, I think that Bad Dreams can still potentially be annoying if paired with a mon that can put to sleep opponents, which brings me to my fourth point, Amoonguss. Amoonguss, as people have said before me, has an amazing synergy with Darkrai due to its typing and Spore. It can check and threaten 3 of the 4 mons that would most likely end up becoming Darkrai's premiere answers, those being Clefable, Iron Valiant and Zamazenta. If Clef isn't running Unaware it gets stomped by Darkrai's Sub+NP set (keep in mind Tera Poison making things worse for Clef), but if it is running it then it gets threatened by Amoonguss' Spore. Iron Valiant has a lot of trouble breaking through Amoonguss, and it gets threaten by Sludge Bomb. Same goes for Zamazenta, which has a better matchup only if it's running the Sub+ID Tera Steel set. Amoonguss has also the potential to threaten Dragapult with a Spore if it gets the timing right, the latter being the 4th mon mentioned above as a solid answer to Darkrai. And will you look at that, Amoonguss ALSO checks Rillaboom.
Fifth, you mention Darkrai being a "niche answer to Balance and Fat" teams, which might as well be an even more idiotic statement than the Iron Bundle's comparison. Once again, you only need to run 2 sets, being the Sub+NP set with Dark Pulse and Focus Blast, or the NP+3 moves set with the aforementioned moves + Sludge Bomb for coverage. The first set allows you to survive any revenge-killing attempt from the 5/6 fellas faster than you (besides Dragapult), while also allowing you to sweep with an incredibly good spammable move in Dark Pulse, which is not even close to being a bad STAB move since it is resisted by only 3 typings, 2 of which get hit for neutral/supereffective damage by Focus Blast, and it has a solid 20% flinch chance. Focus Blast also allows you to 1v1 the likes of Ting-Lu, Blissey, Heatran and Gambit. The second set gives you better coverage for all of the Fairy-types out there. Once you get a chance to Sub and/or NP, Stall and Balance teams have the potential to lose on the spot. HO, on the other hand, doesn't have mons able to take hits coming from a +2 Darkrai, and Speed control isn't a problem because:
sixth and final point, 125 Base Speed is absolutely insane and you're crazy if you think that it's just "meh". You outspeed literally every mon in the meta outside of Dragapult, Zamazenta and your Paradox mon of choice, and once again most of those mons get checked by Amoonguss in the first place. You can also run Sticky Web or any other form of Speed control of your own, it's not like using Darkrai prevents you from making any other strategy. Furthermore, mons like Hydreigon and Pao used to be insanely good in the early stages of the Gen 9 meta, and the first had pretty much the same strategy with a Base 98 Speed, while the second loved running Adamant specifically because it had so few mons to fear in terms of Speed.
The arguments provided in support of Darkrai in OU are simply trash considering the current meta, and theorymonning on the post-DLC2 meta so early is absolutely pointless. The best course of action is to wait and value potential drops afterwards.
1. Amoongus Spore can only put 1 person to sleep, and the mon will never be amazing in a Gholdengo meta, which HO teams often use
2. Focus Blast is also called Focus Miss for a reason
3. The biggest issue with Amoongus is that once it loses its boots or takes a big hit it becomes useless, hence why its not on every team
4. Sticky Webs aren't good rn considering the 6 boots teams everywhere, but sure.
Regarding life orb, I do think it needs it considering many important mus are 50% chance to kill, this mon is literally becoming gambling with the Hypnosis and Focus Blasts and stuff
Good post in general but you are putting too much trust in Amoongus, trust me its a good mon but not that great, although I could see it being good with Darkrai.
 
I don't think Darkrai is even meant to be a sweeper. It's meant to be a wallbreaker that punishes fat in a way most mons are unable to. No one is arguing that it 6-0es teams or has any chance of doing anywhere near close to that vs. HO. What it does is push the meta more towards HO since it shits on nearly all walls, and the main forms of counterplay to it are pretty much all offensive.
 
Has anyone tried 4A cinderace yet?

it’s quite effective against teams that rely on bulky offense pokemon, or ones with mixed resists, like dragapult + zapdos + heatran, etc.

changing to fighting type is also convenient for removing ground weakness and water weakness. Can come in handy in quite a few scenarios.

- Pyro ball
- U turn
- Hi Jump Kick
- Sucker Punch

You can also fit in gunk shot or zen headbutt over one of the moves.

edit: maybe even electroball to smack toxapex and alomomola whilst resisting thunderwave from rotom, glowking and zapdos if you’re trying to cause chip damage.

there’s all sorts of weird things cinderace can do well that meowscarada and greninja can’t!

the reason: cinderace is the only protean user who can keep stab on its first move (pyro ball) before changing to a different stab for the switch in.
 
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I have not taken a stance on Darkrai; I just find your sub-argument here to be silly and disingenuous. Then again, so are most tangents in this thread
youd like a post thats not disingenuous? okay

darkrai would be the third fastest pokemon in ou, behind dragapult and zamazenta. Yes booster pokemon exist but they are an "all in" type. scare them out and theyre itemless without a boost. darkrai is faster than any encore user barring booster valiant but again, switching is no problem since it doesnt rely on booster and can run boots if it wants. infact you could bluff a nasty plot set while just running choice scarf and ohko valiant if you felt so inclined. you have enough natural bulk to survive any common priority move, even banded grassy glide, and versatility of its sets are exactly what will allow it setup opportunities every game. think its scarf? it subbed. expecting nasty plot? specs psyshock. revenge it with booster tusk? sorry its scarf ice beam. It is welcome to run life orb but i cant even see that being a top 2 set. i havent even mentioned it abusing tera (although some above have). in a lot of ways it operates similar to emamorus but slightly better in every way. more speed, more bulk, not weak to rocks, better coverage (i admit moonblast is better than dark pulse). it doesnt have to be zacian to be too much for OU.

1. Amoongus Spore can only put 1 person to sleep, and the mon will never be amazing in a Gholdengo meta, which HO teams often use
2. Focus Blast is also called Focus Miss for a reason
3. The biggest issue with Amoongus is that once it loses its boots or takes a big hit it becomes useless, hence why its not on every team
4. Sticky Webs aren't good rn considering the 6 boots teams everywhere, but sure.
Regarding life orb, I do think it needs it considering many important mus are 50% chance to kill, this mon is literally becoming gambling with the Hypnosis and Focus Blasts and stuff
mate if everyones running boots you outspeed the entire tier minus pult and zama so you dont need webs anyway.
 

Finchinator

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guess "i have not taken a stance" means different things to different people, cool

let me make this clear: I only commented on a lackluster comparison you made, which is unrelated to the vast majority of points you have made. I am sure you have other arguments and I am still focused on the current metagame, so I do not really intend to engage (or take a stance...hence my last post), but I do not understand why you are reading into my very basic and clear posts as you are...surely that was not worth the drawn out rehashing of your entire talking points on the Pokemon
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
1. Amoongus Spore can only put 1 person to sleep, and the mon will never be amazing in a Gholdengo meta, which HO teams often use
2. Focus Blast is also called Focus Miss for a reason
3. The biggest issue with Amoongus is that once it loses its boots or takes a big hit it becomes useless, hence why its not on every team
4. Sticky Webs aren't good rn considering the 6 boots teams everywhere, but sure.
Regarding life orb, I do think it needs it considering many important mus are 50% chance to kill, this mon is literally becoming gambling with the Hypnosis and Focus Blasts and stuff
Good post in general but you are putting too much trust in Amoongus, trust me its a good mon but not that great, although I could see it being good with Darkrai.
1. My point isn't really about Amoonguss being able to somehow put everything to sleep and abuse Darkrai's ability, but it's rather considering the mon's almost perfect pairing with Darkrai itself due to its defensive capabilities. It doesn't matter if Dengo always checks Amoonguss, as long as it is able to switch into the mons that threaten Darkrai it is doing its job just fine. It's also quite funny that you mention Dengo as being one of the reasons for Amoonguss being not as good as it could be (which is true, don't get me wrong), considering that Darkrai would totally threaten Gholdengo in the first place.
2. I mean that's just being pedantic, if you miss a Focus Blast on Blissey you just use it again (what's it gonna do, use Shadow Ball?), if you miss it on Ting-Lu you get Whirlwinded away and you just go on with it. In other situations you are likely to have your Sub up to save your ass at least once, and as I've said Darkrai is actually surprisingly bulky when it comes to eating neutral hits. (yes, I am aware that FB has only 8pp, that is pretty bad and leaves you with even less opportunities)
3. Amoonguss has plenty of flaws, but so do most mons. You still have a whole team strategy and 4 more mons that you could use to bypass its problems.
4. Once again my point was to highlight the fact that you can always optimize your strategy in order not to lose to a couple of mons just because they're "faster" than you. As I've said, you still have 4/5 slots left on your team.
I personally believe that while the Life Orb stuff is true (more power is always gonna be good), the chip damage is never gonna make it worth it for a mon that it's trying to make the most out of its time on the field, such is the case for Darkrai. If it had recovery than sure, but if you gotta take Hazard damage + Life Orb + potential subs or hits, than your Darkrai is gonna last 2 turns.
I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree until DLC2 to drops, so we can see what the meta looks like at that point.
 
guess "i have not taken a stance" means different things to different people, cool

let me make this clear: I only commented on a lackluster comparison you made, which is unrelated to the vast majority of points you have made. I am sure you have other arguments and I am still focused on the current metagame, so I do not really intend to engage (or take a stance...hence my last post), but I do not understand why you are reading into my very basic and clear posts as you are...surely that was not worth the drawn out rehashing of your entire talking points on the Pokemon
Thats fine, I'm not trying to bait out your opinion but you can't say I made a lackluster comparison when you missed my point. My original point (before i got dragged away from it) was that dark is a good offensive type. This was in response to exotics post, not yours, in which he mentioned dark stab is bad because it is resisted by half the teir. All the pokemon i listed are good for many more reasons than being dark type. But dark moves are what they ended up spamming anyway, despite it being "bad offensively".
 
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