Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Finchinator

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Speaking on Water Ogerpon, it shot up in usage and is very potent into bulky teams. I wanted it included, but I don’t think it’s broken so much as very good. Having data is still helpful as we try to sort through this early metagame state and see how things develop as it has a unique offensive profile and some archetypes struggled to adapt to it. Being strong with a good ability up-front and nice Tera prospects propelled my interest, but I can’t say I’d vote ban. I think I gave it a 1 or 2 myself even. I also think it’s presence helps a lot with Manaphy.

As for Gliscor, I’d have to defer to NJNP. If he wants to discuss it, he’s entitled as it was included upon his request. He’s a smart player who is on council and wanted Gliscor to be included. He also runs one of the most popular OU discords and plenty of discussion of it happened there, but not too much happened on the forums and I don’t have Gliscor on my personal radar at this time.
 
Similar to valiant and magearna it's not one set in particular so much as the number of different sets it can run very effectively. That said bulky swords dance is probably the best, thing gets 3HKOd by weaknesses which allows it to get up a swords dance and sweep very easily. It's a decent spiker but it's now the best stealth rock and Tspikes user in the tier because of the bulk + versatility in its other move slots. At worst it's a bulkier, better typed, and more destructive Tusk that can't remove hazards (or to be more accurate to tusk in practice, can't SOMETIMES remove hazards) and laughs at knock off. Another comparison is "a bulkier Lando that that heals better, absorbs knock better, has more hazard and utility options, but no intimidate" or "Ting-Lu with better recovery and hazards and doesn't fear Knock"

That bulk and longevity with Toxic is also very potent. All in all I'm unsure about Broken at this time but Gliscor has rapidly become by far the best utility Pokémon in the tier with a ton of offensive potential as well. It's really dangerous, has already become a very important Pokémon, and has potential to be even more centralizing.
I just don't see it being such a big threat, it might send you back to the team builder, some mons do that, that's just the making of a metagame. I can see it being a mon that makes you shit your pants whenever it comes in unlike many straight forward mons in the tier this far - most setup users can be stopped by unaware, while on the other end of the spectrum something like toxapex is a very straight-forward gholdengo switch in, toxapex would have at least been able to knock gholdengo off in gen 8, had ghold been there - but that might have been felt with something like tangrowth coming back as well. regardless, if gliscor is really that scary, tera steel cresselia can get the job done. specifically speaking tera steel cress seems like a great anti meta pick right now personally, it takes care of bloodbear too.
 
fun fact about gliscor: just let it stall you for a couple turns, then switch in neutralizing gas geezing (make sure it's not doing an eq though) and watch gliscor's health bar disappear. the toxic counter still goes up even if it's not taking damage from it. geezing actually does have a lot of applications right now—aside from being able to turn poison heal into poison hurt, it can defog even if gholdengo is switching in, lead against atales so it can't even get hail up (also works decently against other weather teams), click toxic against garganacl, completely neuter azumarill (not worth much but still funny), and if you predict a clefable switch-in, you can switch geezing in to make sure it takes hazard damage
Neutral Gas Weezing seems like a reward master for 200 IQ players. It denies Regenerator as well if you switch it in exactly as they try to switch out and if your mon before Weezing is faster.

Too bad it stat line is so bad - otherwise it would be a potent tool against a lot of mons reliant on abilities


Speaking on Water Ogerpon, it shot up in usage and is very potent into bulky teams. I wanted it included, but I don’t think it’s broken so much as very good. Having data is still helpful as we try to sort through this early metagame state and see how things develop as it has a unique offensive profile and some archetypes struggled to adapt to it. Being strong with a good ability up-front and nice Tera prospects propelled my interest, but I can’t say I’d vote ban. I think I gave it a 1 or 2 myself even. I also think it’s presence helps a lot with Manaphy.

As for Gliscor, I’d have to defer to NJNP. If he wants to discuss it, he’s entitled as it was included upon his request. He’s a smart player who is on council and wanted Gliscor to be included. He also runs one of the most popular OU discords and plenty of discussion of it happened there, but not too much happened on the forums and I don’t have Gliscor on my personal radar at this time.
I am surprised that Water Ogerpon is considered overpowered, I hope someone explains that one aswell.


Can you be more specific with the "most popular OU discord" that does not really help to find it.
 

Srn

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Don't mean to speak on njnp's behalf but I can personally explain why I find gliscor very problematic.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect
- Spikes

Evs/tera types flexible, it's these 4 moves which matter.

The fact that we have a spiker who can come directly in on Great Tusk, facetank stabs+knock off for breakfast, threaten it out with Toxic, and get a Spike right back up after Great Tusk switches out is very concerning. The best hazard removal in the tier just left the field with a spike still up. Cinderace is no better, Pyro Ball is bouncing off Gliscor, it cannot be wisped, and after a Court Change, it can set a Spike right back up. Seeing our best forms of hazard removal trivialized like this is the canary in the coal mine for this already hazard centric meta.

If you weren't running Ice Spinner on your Offensive Great Tusk, start.
If you were running defensive Great Tusk, stop.
We are nosediving into Gliscor Spikes Balance Hell at record speeds.
 
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Speaking on Water Ogerpon, it shot up in usage and is very potent into bulky teams. I wanted it included, but I don’t think it’s broken so much as very good. Having data is still helpful as we try to sort through this early metagame state and see how things develop as it has a unique offensive profile and some archetypes struggled to adapt to it. Being strong with a good ability up-front and nice Tera prospects propelled my interest, but I can’t say I’d vote ban. I think I gave it a 1 or 2 myself even. I also think it’s presence helps a lot with Manaphy.

As for Gliscor, I’d have to defer to NJNP. If he wants to discuss it, he’s entitled as it was included upon his request. He’s a smart player who is on council and wanted Gliscor to be included. He also runs one of the most popular OU discords and plenty of discussion of it happened there, but not too much happened on the forums and I don’t have Gliscor on my personal radar at this time.
I've found Water ogerpon to be a great option against both sun with tera and rain without. it can be given enough EVs to outspeed Great Tusk or even Lando and the rest in HP and Spdef, with tera it can tank even do this:
+2 252 SpA Polteageist Stored Power (180 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 156 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera in Psychic Terrain: 307-362 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That is a Polteageist that got off a Shell Smash and a Weak Armor.
 
Neutral Gas Weezing seems like a reward master for 200 IQ players. It denies Regenerator as well if you switch it in exactly as they try to switch out and if your mon before Weezing is faster.

Too bad it stat line is so bad - otherwise it would be a potent tool against a lot of mons reliant on abilities
Kinda reminds me of Cofagrigus in ORAS in that way. Being able to deny more abilities than Mold Breaker does is so good; its statline isn't terrible but having to sacrifice your Ground immunity to run NG sucks so bad when every team has at least one ground type. Being weak to Make it Rain doesn't help either. Still I could see it being a C rank mon maybe
 
I'll try to rationalize what makes :Ogerpon-Hearthflame: so good.
Firepon's Fire/Grass dual type is very synergetic. It's a Grass type that doesn't get wall by Steels and also a Fire type that doesn't get wall by Rock or Waters, this combination allows Firepon to hit most things for at least neutral damage which is amazing for a Pokemon that sits in a good speed tier. Firepon is frail but not frail enough to be OHKO with ease, it can 1v1 neutral matches with Swords Dance and Horn Leech, if it survives a hit it can set up and get most of it's HP back, making it hard to keep in range to KO and revenge KO. This can get you into mental games because a hard switch can mean a 2HKO or staying can mean a Swords Dance go up.

Another issue with this Pokemon, is that it puts heavy pressure in team-structures because it naturally threatens key-role Pokemon such as bulky Waters, utility Grounds and Steel walls, all in one single mon. This match up against ubiquitous archetypes nearly guarantees Firepon a good match up against a portion of most teams. Firepon makes use of this match up for getting KOs, revenge kills or force out these Pokemon to set up.

Issues with defensive counter play: Firepon Pokemon can pick it's counters, It's Fire/Grass combination can hit almost anything except for Dragon and other Fires. Firepon has good coverage in Knock-off, Play Rough, Low Kick and Stomping Tantrum which can counter hit Pokemon that wall it's dual STAB such as Iron Moth, Dragonite, Heatran or Knock Moltres's boots. Also it has Mold Breaker, this allows Firepon to bypass abilities such as Flash Fire, Unaware or Multi Scale, making Pokemon like Heatran, Skeledirge and Dragonite ineffective as reliable counters despite being the closest things to be a hard counter to it. This is limited by 4 move slots but a team mate can cover up and scouting a Pokemon with this much offensive pressure can be costly. Also being a fire type it makes wisp/flame body useless, while Ivy Cudgel makes no contact, further reducing defensive play from Rocky Helmet or Static, which is why hazards and priority are mostly the way to deal with it.

The last point is it's raw power. This is probably the scariest thing about this mon, the boost stack of decent attack, Mask bonus, +1 atk from Embody Aspect, and Tera can be overwhelming. Specially in Sun with Trailblaze sets, despite Trailblaze being a weak move it's still a viable set because with STAB, bonus stacks and good attack stat it still can pick up late KOs +1ing it's speed, Sun variations don't need Grass coverage or any coverage because with Swords Dance, Embody of Aspect and tera in sun it hits like Chi-Yu.
All these factors compressed in one Pokemon make it a big threat.
 
IMO arguing whether Darkrai is balanced in OU is pointless. Say, if we hold a suspect after DLC2, and it's broken, Quickban it. There is no need to argue whether it should be released or not, having one or two days to see its effect on the metagame would be enough. Trying to argue it shouldn't at least be tested is in bad faith IMO when there are plenty of reasons why it may not be too broken. We've had Pokemon that seemed broken at face value like Walking Wake, Ursaluna, Zamazenta-Hero, and Sneasler. While they may not be the most balanced Pokemon to ever grace OU, they are generally thought to be fine. There is no good reason to not test it out at least.
 
IMO arguing whether Darkrai is balanced in OU is pointless. Say, if we hold a suspect after DLC2, and it's broken, Quickban it. There is no need to argue whether it should be released or not, having one or two days to see its effect on the metagame would be enough. Trying to argue it shouldn't at least be tested is in bad faith IMO when there are plenty of reasons why it may not be too broken. We've had Pokemon that seemed broken at face value like Walking Wake, Ursaluna, Zamazenta-Hero, and Sneasler. While they may not be the most balanced Pokemon to ever grace OU, they are generally thought to be fine. There is no good reason to not test it out at least.
the fact that this meta is going to come and go so fast can very easily be made to be the reason why we should ease up on letting mons with ban precedents back into OU, tiering action might be struggling to catch up with dealing with more insidious mons while kingambit on wheels is running around.
 
Neutral Gas Weezing seems like a reward master for 200 IQ players. It denies Regenerator as well if you switch it in exactly as they try to switch out and if your mon before Weezing is faster.

Too bad it stat line is so bad - otherwise it would be a potent tool against a lot of mons reliant on abilities




I am surprised that Water Ogerpon is considered overpowered, I hope someone explains that one aswell.


Can you be more specific with the "most popular OU discord" that does not really help to find it.
TrainerAid is the discord in question and that's where Gliscor has been discussed, also where waterpon is being discussed as potentially stronger than firepon (better defensive type, lack of hazard weakness, still plenty strong after a swords dance without fire's +1 Atk being necessary, gets even bulkier from terastalizing)
 

Karxrida

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I really think the survey should have included Kingambit just so if it got a high score it could possibly be QB'd since it narrowly dodged the suspect ban it deserves. Maybe throw Valiant in there as well for good measure.
Look, I'm all for a King ban, but having the council quickban it after it survived the suspect and obtaining little from the DLC to justify it would be an extremely bad look.
 
Survey answers:

Ogerpon-H: 5. GET THIS PIECE OF SIGOHDIHJFONBOJF OUT OF OU PLEASE
Manaphy: 2. It's not that crazy, if tera goes, manaphy will be uubl at best, maybe uu lol.
9tales-a: 3. This thing is still annoying but without bax, it's not overwhelming.
Ursaluna-BM: 1. This isn't broken at all unless you give it an opportunity to set up. It's really frail on the special side so a strong special move or something super effective should kill it.
Ogerpon-W: 4. TBH this thing should probably be banned. It's not as broken as hearthflame but still, this is insane.
Gliscor: 1. LMAO why is this on the survey???
Also special shout out to gambit for still maybe being broken, idrk cuz it's not as common as before.
 
Alright so after a bit of playing and with the new survey up, I feel like I can finally post here for a change:
Meta enjoyment: 7, most of the new dlc stuff is pretty neat tbh I'm impressed by how few insanely minmaxed stuff there is/not much standing out as truly insane (the now-banned bax/firepon nonwithstanding).
Meta balance: 5, stuff's still taking time to be figured out for now.
Firepon: easy 5. Frankly it miiiight've been possibly worthy of 4...if it didn't have trailblaze. But it does, and that lets it bypass the cited offensive counterplay the mon would've otherwise had, especially with it getting stab on the move making it a legit sweeping/cleaning option with a sd/embody aspect boost. The ladder already knows all this too, hence it's trying its absolute hardest to squeeze every ounce of brokenness from this mon, from sun, to aveil, to even BOTH at once...yeah this mon is literally everywhere rn, and "being unable to hold boots" doesn't really cut it at all. Shame too, because we finally get an actually good fire/grass mon and it's gotta go already :( But between its raw power from its stabs alone, to just the right amount of coverage options, to having an already good speed tier (that the oft-compared chi yu would kill even harder for) truly make this thing too much. Btw, if anyone's got any doubts on how dumb this thing is: +3 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Tera Fire Ogerpon-Hearthflame-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake in Sun: 250-294 (73 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Manaphy: 2. Tbh it probably should've been 3, particularly with tera fixing any gaping hole its already solid coverage might've had, but...with such a fast paced meta, and it needing to set up to start posing a real threat, it may struggle to find the turns it needs to leave a sufficient impace, particularly without veil/rain support. That said, it can mix and match its remaining coverage moves more effectively than ever before, so yeah maybe I should've voted 3 after all...was kinda torn tbh and wasn't really sure. (at least it can't boost its own speed with an actually semi-competent move for it unlike firepon, which puts it firmly below the latter for me).
Ursaluna: 3. It's quite bulky, and even with no setup, blood moon's raw power can be impossible for frailer teams (and apparently even balance?) to switch into, especially when complemented by just the right amount of coverage/secondary stab. It of course also has calm mind/moonlight to really snowball out of control in tandem with the above phys. bulk, demanding respect/toxicing it asap if you don't wanna just lose multiple mons to it. It's not higher than this rating mainly because it does genuinely struggle with 4mms a tad, really wanting to have all of blood moon/earth power/calm mind/moonlight/vaccum wave/filler move (tera blast, moonblast), and can also have a dilemma between investing in bulk or speed creeping fellow slow mons around its speed range. Definitely a cool mon though and I'm glad it's not just a sidegrade from the regular one. Fun trivia of the night: max speed timid ursaluna-b is faster than garchomp slowed down by webs by ONE POINT.
A-Ninetales: 2. Tbh wasn't sure between this or 3; its speed, encore, and newfound bulk from snow (or even tera if need be) definitely aid it in getting veil up consistently, but...idk maybe it'll eventually fade away? Especially if the meta slows down? The quality of the mons behind its screens definitely seems to affect them, huh. Also not a higher rating bc, outside of veil/the tools I mentioned above alongside it (alongside hypnosis if you wanna count that) its stats are sadly a tad too low to pose much of an offensive threat on its own if it's not hitting for 4x SE dmg/hitting really frail targets for 2x SE dmg. Still an understandable inclusion though, especially with it already causing Bax to get banned.
Waterpon: 2. It's a fine mon; I can see why it'd be included (mostly just in case, since it does have a rather potent performance) but I don't think it really borders onto broken territory at all. It's really just a fine, and healthy mon for the meta even; water absorb on an offensive mon, and one that can hit said opposing waters back super effectively even, is a godsend for...any kind of team really, but especially offense which struggles to fit non volcanion mons with the ability. But yeah its typing, movepool and ability definitely make it a good, standout presence with a lot of positives for teams that can fit it in.
Gliscor: 3. A rather surprising inclusion to many, but not the least sensical thing in the world, especially with the set Srn posted up above. It can be really obnoxious to wear down/take out, between protect/poison heal and the appropriate teammates. Bax being out of the meta also means one less mon to take advantage of the mon's 2 (!!) weaknesses, further accentuating its notoriety for sticking around for seemingly ever. It's kinda odd tbh cuz on a vacuum, outside of the set Srn posted up above, the mon would seem to suffer greatly from 4mms/need lots more experimentation with all the moves it'd want to run at once, but...yeah.
Oh and ig it can also just tera to flip the script vs its supposed weaknesses anyway and get off one more spike/toxic before protecting again and again.

As a bonus for making it this far, I'd like to also give a shout-out to a mon that's been seldom spoen of so far despite an incredible buff:
Brambleghast (F) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Rapid Spin
- Strength Sap
Poltergeist finally gives the mon the missing piece it's been looking for in so long, and lets it smack stuff like g-slowking and many more things with poltergeist-including the zapdos it's supposed to check. With said move, it can also ohko uninvested gholdengo (but you might wanna be careful if it's balloon to not pop it first), and 2hko the bulkier variants, though you'll still want some chip for those if you don't wanna eat a counterattack (252 Atk Tera Ghost Brambleghast Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 328-388 (86.7 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO). It ironically also makes a good partner FOR ghold, relieving it of the pressure of spinblocking tusk (its best shot at catching you on the switch is: 252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Brambleghast: 236-278 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO), letting you strength sap it to oblivion before whipping it down; same deal with ting lu, whose hazards you not only spin away, but also punish for spamming whirlwind (!!) The absence of spikes on the set seems dubious but, power whip's needed to actually beat tusk/lu/other stuff like some water types, spin's a no-brainer, strength sap is an AG tier move stuck on mostly shitmons your recovery move of choice, which also lets you more securely handle the mons you're tasked to deal with, and poltergeist's already explained above. Give the mon a try, it might just be to shake-up your teams need after having tusk in all of them just to deal with gholdy! Shame it doesn't get tailwind on its own, it'd have made the mon even more legit. Oh well, it's shiftry time! Oh yeah I forgot to mention up above, in the honorable mentions section I did also put ghold itself for reasons already stated by many; I may not feel as strongly about it, myself, but I can see where many people come from, and agree it should be kept on watch still. Oh and I also put light clay/veil itself in there for some reason idk why; I guess since alolatales's already being looked at, may as well include the remained of the package in it. Oh and I totally forgot to include Kingambit in it, and only got reminded of that after reading this thread after already responding....oh well I'm posting it here instead then, I guess.

That's all for now, thanks for reading. It's pretty late in the night over here, so if any of my voting numbers don't match what I posted here, I apologize, but I hope I've elaborated enough on it regardless.
 
Look, I'm all for a King ban, but having the council quickban it after it survived the suspect and obtaining little from the DLC to justify it would be an extremely bad look.
I agree with the sentiment, but aurora veil accessibility is a humongous buff for kingambit.
 

658Greninja

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IMG_8507.jpeg

Its ironic that I actually find this metagame enjoyable outside of stuff like Firepon. The meta re-introduced meta staples Gliscor and Clef which are excellent knock/status absorbers that are also immune to spikes. Plus some old defensive mons got buffed such as Mola, Empoleon, and Torn which grant teams more flexibility. Stuff like Gambit and Valiant feel less problematic atm. Quickbanning Bax was one of the best decisions a council has made.

IMG_8508.jpeg

I’ll explain this later.

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Fire Ogre feels problematic. Dragons get crushed by Play Rough, Trailblaze cuts off outspeeding it, Molt needs Roar to check it, Tran needs Ability Shield. Dirge can’t really hurt it either and also Mold Breaker. Water/Grass Ogre is overall easier to wall due the less volatile type combination and also not getting an atk boost when terastilizing. The ability to both boost its attack and speed pushes it over the edge imo.

Manaphy has depleted on my radar. It has a big 4mss, wanting Ice Beam, Eball, Dgleam, Rest, and Psychic on the same set. Also lacking reliable recovery unlike the other bs Veil abuser. Mons like Empoleon and Waterpon provide ample counterplay to it.

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The problem was always Bax. With it gone, Veil is less problematic, and if it is, usually its the other broken threats it accompanies, like stupid ass FNAF Cocaine Fazbear Luna exe. Ridiculously bulky with reliable recovery. I’ve seen this thing eat Close Combats like nothing. Tera makes it more of a pain to check. Most of our special walls get hit se by Earth Power or can’t actually threaten it. It deserves to get Revenant’d.

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As stated Water Ogre is fine. Personally Gliscor is a great addition to the tier. Checks a ton of mons in the meta, utility in Knock, Spikes, Toxic, U-Turn. Absorbs status and knock which is perfect for playing around hazard stack + knock. Though I do understand the complaint of its ability to set up hazards to be seemingly oppressive. Nevertheless its a great defensive staple and its shaping up to be one of the best mons in the tier.
 

Ox the Fox

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heartflame - 4, this thing is actually impossible to beat defensively - you're pretty much forced to run priority on balance teams to deal with it. It can either run coverage to get past would be checks like dnite, or trailblaze which makes killing it on offense (also unexplored options like sub and encore which just haven't been used much yet). You can somewhat keep it in check through hazards but there's only so many mons that can even outspeed it. I've seen some absolutely terrible takes recently calling this thing bad which makes literally 0 sense. Wouldn't quickban at the moment, but is def up there for me.

manaphy - 2, mana can get some pretty dumb matchups vs balance teams, but you have enough options for checking it + offense teams ofc always do well vs it. I can see it being more broken if oger ends up going, but for now it's fine. The only truly stupid set is the stored power shit that can cheese some insane MUs, but anyone who seriously plays this game will tell you stored power is clearly broken anyways.

Ninetales - 2, veil definitely feels better this gen w the snow buff making ninetales unkillable, but I don't think there's enough broken setup sweepers to fully abuse it atm. You're obviously going to always be cheesed by some random set at a random time, but I don't think that's enough to fully ban tales. I certainly wouldn't complain if this thing was gone, but it's completely unecessary

ursa - 4, the more I play the more broken I think this thing is. you have pretty much no real answers on bulkier teams to deal w this thing, and its not hard for it to stay alive over the course of the game w moonlight. I've generally been using toxic tect gliscor to check it, but it always comes down to guessing the protect v blood moon turns which feels BS. This thing also isn't even bad vs offense, as it can pretty much take a hit from any 1 mon and kill back with blood moon. I also wouldn't qb this right now, but it's easily the closest thing for me.

wellspring - 2, feels more fair to play vs than hearthflame, but also more consistent than it. I like having it in the tier and enjoy another water absorb mon w a great speed tier. don't think this thing will ever be truly broken, but rather a consistent top tier threat.

gliscor - 1, lol

meta is very fun right now overall, been enjoying laddering a lot - excited to play SCL this season and see what people are cooking.
 
On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame? - 9

It's clearly in need of some balancing but hot damn if I don't find it incredibly fun to play around in right now.

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame? - 7

Some threats need the boot and Light Clay needs to be yeeted.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ogerpon-Hearthflame? - 3

Not really sure I find this thing to be broken; sure its offensive typing has great synergy, it hits like a truck, and Mold Breaker is a cool ability, but it has many exploitable weaknesses, only passable bulk, and next to no longevity. Time will tell.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Manaphy? - 4

I personally haven't had any issues handling Manaphy, but I can see that its influence on the tier is a tad overwhelming, and I've been finding myself slotting certain Pokemon onto my team builds a bit more often than I'd prefer to. Definitely suspect it (I don't believe overwhelming to the point of being worthy of a quick ban).

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ninetales-Alola? - 3 (This frustrates me)

I don't want Ninetales-A to be suspected, I want Light Clay suspected. I've been saying it since Gen 9 OU started, and it's only going to get worse with DLC 1 and even more so with DLC 2.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ursaluna Blood Moon? - 4

Like Manaphy, this is another Pokemon that I personally haven't had issues with but I can definitely feel its influence on teambuilding. Definitely worthy of a suspect test.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring? - 5

The fact that this abhorrent monster is viewed as worse than Foger will never make sense to me. This is easily the best out of the Ogerpon forms with an arguably better ability, superior typing (both offensively and defensively), actual longevity, and almost nears Dracovish levels of ridiculous under Rain. I think this should receive a suspect test, pronto.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Gliscor? - 1

Gliscor is going to drop to UU or UUBL; this mon was nerfed and is in no way anywhere near close to broken. If you're having trouble with it, ask yourself; are you just having difficulties with Gliscor or is your team as a whole having difficulties with Stall cores?

Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into?

As I mentioned above, Light Clay.
 
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Gliscor? - 1

Gliscor is going to drop to UU or UUBL; this mon was nerfed and is in no way anywhere near close to broken. If you're having trouble with it, ask yourself, are you just having difficulties with Gliscor or is your team as a whole having difficulties with Stall cores?
Gliscor is still really good without roost. Protect + poison heal is still pretty solid healing. It's only major weakness is STAB ice moves, which there aren't a lot of bc rip bax. Also gliscor has spikes now, which is nice because spikes are as good as ever starting with this gen. Also, are there any other mons other than shiftry that you think are have some heat potential?
 
is everyone over banning tera?
i remember when that was a big question
personally i hate it lmao
but i still love infernape so what do i know?
tera is really fun to use, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut tera also enables a lot of insane threats or makes ok mons insane. Garg is mostly viable bc of tera, gmabit is insane bc of tera, manaphy is as strong as it is bc of tera, volc was broken by tera, etc. tbh tera has some issues but I like it and it's fun.
 
Gliscor is still really good without roost. Protect + poison heal is still pretty solid healing. It's only major weakness is STAB ice moves, which there aren't a lot of bc rip bax. Also gliscor has spikes now, which is nice because spikes are as good as ever starting with this gen. Also, are there any other mons other than shiftry that you think are have some heat potential?
I've found that Gliscor without Roost is extremely exploitable by Pokemon like Woger (who also easily handles Gliscor's Tera Water variant that's been rising in frequency), but if it takes out various Pokemon that plague it, it can definitely be a bit of a nuisance and the addition of Spikes was quite nice.

Personally, there are five Pokemon I have my eye on along with Shiftry and Mightyena (one of my big analysis posts will be coming soon for OU Mightyena); I'll order them from top to bottom as most potential to very niche specific.

250px-0392Infernape.png

You'll be happy about this mr.pink88 as Swords Dance Iron Fist Tera Electric Thunder Punch is insane and allows Infernape to reach some impressive feats like OHKOing multiple variants of Toxapex and OHKOing Alomomola with chip damage. STAB Drain Punch feasts on Gambit and other threats, while Infernape has access to Raging Fury (basically, Fire-type Outrage) to avoid the longevity problems of Flare Blitz if that's an issue for your teams. It's easily one of the best returning old mons and this is the best Infernape has been in OU in a very long time.

600px-0110Weezing-Galar.png

A fantastic physically defensive mon with a lot of coverage and utility options, along with superb defensive typing and two fantastic abilities (I run Levitate because the Ground immunity opens up so many more options for defensive counterplay - such as turning Great Tusk from checking Weezing-G to being checked by Weezing-G. Really underrated mon that has a strong niche if you can play around its flaws (very exploitable Speed and Special Defense).

250px-0743Ribombee.png
250px-0738Vikavolt.png

Ribombee and Vikavolt are both niche but strong Pokemon in their own right that made Sticky Webs an actual viable playstyle again. Bug/Fairy is great coverage (and Ribombee's speed tier rules in the era of the Ogers), while Vikavolt's nuclear Special Attack, Levitate ability, and powerful slow Volt Switches are great utility for a team.

250px-0477Dusknoir.png

While I love Dusknoir, his niche is extremely specific to one type of set - max investment in SpD and HP allows it to 1v1 Calm Mind Ursaluna Blood Moon with careful play thanks to unique access to Haze, Pain Split, and Will-O-Wisp (the attacking move is up to you, I usually just run Poltergeist to whomp Gholdengo but it has other offensive options).
 
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Look, I'm all for a King ban, but having the council quickban it after it survived the suspect and obtaining little from the DLC to justify it would be an extremely bad look.
except that enough dnb voters changed their mind that the suspect results were basically invalidated almost immediately, and gambit has benefited a lot from the dlc even though it didn't get any useful new toys of its own. at least an inclusion on the survey was warranted, certainly over fucking gliscor
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring? - 5

The fact that this abhorrent monster is viewed as worse than Foger will never make sense to me. This is easily the best out of the Ogerpon forms with an arguably better ability, superior typing (both offensively and defensively), actual longevity, and almost nears Dracovish levels of ridiculous under Rain. I think this should receive a suspect test, pronto.
i have to respectfully disagree with… well, all of this.
  • water absorb isn't "arguably better" on a water quad-resist than mold breaker is on anything
  • grass/fire is better offensively, by a long shot—it hits 527 mons supereffectively and is resisted by 128 mons, as opposed to grass/water, which only hits 354 mons supereffectively and is resisted by 190 mons. this is before factoring in abilities, which the grass/fire coverage happens to ignore. these are natdex numbers but my point still stands
  • grass/fire does have worse weaknesses and resistances than grass/water (especially the rock weakness with no possibility of boots), but it's also got 4 resistances to grass/water's 3, plus a burn immunity, so they're closer to even than you'd think
  • they can both have actual longevity if you run synthesis or horn leech. synthesis is actually pretty easy to run on ogerpon-hookhandcardoor in the sun, since after a swords dance and tera (at the appropriate time) you can just punch through resists instead of doing loser things like "running coverage"
  • ogerpon-hearingloss has the same damage output under sun as ogerpon-wolverine has under rain, with the bonus of being able to heal 66% with synthesis instead of 25% (if you want to run that, y'know, for longevity), and the second bonus of having a whole cavalcade of protosynthesis mons to back her up
i really don't think ogerpon-wetmask is a problem at all, at least not as things stand right now
 
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(thanks Morkai, I'm stealing that)



On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame? - 9
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Baxc was the only reason I wasn't jamming out in SVDLC1 OU metagame. Now, I'm jamming hard. Pretty sure this is the most amount of fun I've had in a current gen OU metagame since generation 6, which should say everything given how much I loved the first meta I got seriously into competitive mons on. Y'all are doing great of nuking the most problematic mons, keep it up!


On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame? - 6.5

Meta feels still a bit more unstable because of Firepon absolutely crushing teams and the fact that Valiant is a mon that still exists, but hey, I'm having much more of a blast now. There's 2 mons I'm properly worried about, both of which got a 4 below, and one of which is actively affecting my teambuilding and I despise it.




On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ogerpon-Hearthflame? - 4

Shit's stupid we all know it, and whether it gets qb'd or suspected or nothing, I look forward to seeing the absolute massacre it leaves in its wake. I've been having a blast using it for the short time it's gonna be in the tier, and I must admit, smashing through stall has never felt this good.


On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring? - 3

It's probably good? I've heard word that it's probably better than Firepon at crushing teams not through sheer power but through resistances + bulk letting freer setup, but I've yet to see it work. Helps I don't use teams that get bowled over easily by it, I guess? The fact it doesn't completely bowl over Stall kind of keeps it from going that overkill in my eyes.


On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Manaphy? - 2

Still hesitate to call Manaphy a mon that isn't problematic in some way, but I exclusively run HO that isn't concerned that badly with Webs and has multiple ways to smash through it. If I guessed wrong twice, I'd lose to it, but that's two times Manaphy has to win the mindgame of Tera/move choice.


On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ninetales-Alola? - 1

He's back to his normal self. No problems here, he's annoying but I don't want anything done about him. Ninetales enables HO in the same way Grimmsnarl does, but with an entirely separate set of problems it faces over the giant demon fairy thing. Like autolosing to Sun or Tyranitar's existence.


On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ursaluna Blood Moon? - 2

1 week ago me said it best, I just don't see him as a problem. I get that I'm an outlier, though, and I hear what's going on more than what I'm seeing. I heard he breaks Balance more than HO, which would explain it.



On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Gliscor? - 4
1695256908665.png

Fuck this mon. Like, I'm happy he's back, but he just gets so much reward out of so many interactions that shouldn't be favorable to it. One of my teams had to get completely scrapped because Toxic Spikes Gliscor just happened to walk all over it, and the one time I teched Ice Spinner it was a SD Facade Tera Normal Gliscor and I got my shit kicked in. I love Gliscor, but this is not the Gliscor I know and love, this is an impostor pretending to be the cool guy. Srn really said everything, I hate needing to have several ways to stop Glisc from doing something a match, all of which feel challenging as hell. Once I'm forced to run Waterpon in the inevitable Firepon exodus, I only pray that Tera doesn't stay to give Gliscor even more staying power.

People that think Glisc is washed up are high on something, and I WANT IT, because it must be strong as hell. The minute I have to fight a Toxic Spikes + Gliscor team I'm going to just start crying.
 
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