Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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If you want the best way to handle the hazard situation, ban Ghold before banning Gliscor.

Corv is a fantastic defogger that is immune to Toxic and EQ. The problem is it exists in a meta where Ghold exists.

If we had the same Defog distribution as Gen 7-8, people would not complain about Ghold, but as it stands, we don’t have a whole lot of defoggers/spinners.

Gliscor is the best glue in the tier. Checks much of the tier while fulfilling multiple roles. The ironic thing about Gliscor is this.

It helps against hazard stacking because its immune to spikes, absorbs Knock, and Poison Heal shrugs off rocks dmg, and at the same time its the best hazard setter we’ve ever seen in SV OU. Fucking oof.
 
If you want the best way to handle the hazard situation, ban Ghold before banning Gliscor.

Corv is a fantastic defogger that is immune to Toxic and EQ. The problem is it exists in a meta where Ghold exists.

If we had the same Defog distribution as Gen 7-8, people would not complain about Ghold, but as it stands, we don’t have a whole lot of defoggers/spinners.

Gliscor is the best glue in the tier. Checks much of the tier while fulfilling multiple roles. The ironic thing about Gliscor is this.

It helps against hazard stacking because its immune to spikes, absorbs Knock, and Poison Heal shrugs off rocks dmg, and at the same time its the best hazard setter we’ve ever seen in SV OU. Fucking oof.
I never thought I'd say this, but maybe we need to ban dengo. The hazards (specifically Spikes) game is off the charts this gen. And I do believe we need a Knock absorber. Funny how Gholdengo used the be team glue, but now it's a hazard warper like never seen before.

Although TECHNICALLY Neutralizing Gas Weezing and its Galarian form can Defog on dengo, as can Hawlucha. But that's it. Unless you got Scrappy Rapid Spin (or the examples above), you can't get rid of hazards with Gholdengo on the field. But imo, Gholdengo had so much ban potency back when it was released. I'm on the edge for what to do here. We could ban Gliscor, Gholdengo, or both of them. But does that fix the hazard meta?
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
If you want the best way to handle the hazard situation, ban Ghold before banning Gliscor.

Corv is a fantastic defogger that is immune to Toxic and EQ. The problem is it exists in a meta where Ghold exists.

If we had the same Defog distribution as Gen 7-8, people would not complain about Ghold, but as it stands, we don’t have a whole lot of defoggers/spinners.

Gliscor is the best glue in the tier. Checks much of the tier while fulfilling multiple roles. The ironic thing about Gliscor is this.

It helps against hazard stacking because its immune to spikes, absorbs Knock, and Poison Heal shrugs off rocks dmg, and at the same time its the best hazard setter we’ve ever seen in SV OU. Fucking oof.
bloody wall they are backc.jpg
I think it's better with gliscor off as his access to toxic , hazards and knock off make the possibility to pivot on gliscor very difficult while gliscor is very easy to bring on the field especially with a lot of pivot in the metagame. It's a real pain to bring something on gliscor and it's a situation that happen a lot during a game. Even if gliscor is a pokemon that check/counter a lot of stuff in the meta easily, options like ting-lu , clodsire or clefable for longevity can do the trick after a gliscor ban
 
No, Tera does that. Offensive set-up mons are surviving hits and statuses that they have no business setting up on. Gholdengo does not have a cot darn thing to do with it.
the fact that the only good defogger can't really touch ghold is a problem. all of the other defoggers suck shit because ghold sits on them. I have no opinion on a ghold ban but it is extremely hazardous to the anti-hazard game
 
How Ghold warps the meta is the ONLY reason for this. The mon itself isn't broken but it's existence shifts the entire meta way too drastically towards offense. The dynamic between hazards, boots and knock would be far more balanced if Ghold wasn't around.

Mandibuzz+Corv+Tusk+Treads+G-Weezing...etc are more than enough on the defensive side to keep hazards way more in check. It's not about the setters.
Mandibuzz and Tusk don't want to take a Toxic from Gliscor, Treads and Gweez don't want to take an EQ. Going from 0 Pokémon that can remove hazards to Corviknight required on every team is not a solution, and even if it was, I cannot understand from a tiering policy perspective how the response to "We have a spikes setter that threatens every hazard remover with stab or toxic and is bulky enough to get 3 spikes up with zero effort" is "clearly the problem is that the one single remover that's not as threatened by this monster can't defog while a completely different Pokémon is out" - can anyone make this make sense for me? Is the fact that none of the otherwise-excellent hazard removers we have can do anything about the spiker with no weaknesses not the problem? Why is buffing one otherwise extremely passive Pokémon by banning a relatively unrelated Pokémon the solution? Really comes off as cope & insane troll logic to me

another way to think of this: our other grounds are fine vs gholdengo and historically have been. Suddenly we have a hazard setter that beats the grounds, and GHOLD is the problem?
 
fuck it, let's just mod in defog's old distribution and be done with this discussion. if game freak isn't going to make the right decisions, it's up to us
This is a joke, but at this point I legitimately am left wondering if it wouldn't be worth abandoning the reliance on Gamefreak and turning Smogon into a collective pet mod, when they're quite clearly horrible at properly balancing the game in any way, and it's pretty clearly from where I sit that the meta has left the majority of the playerbase frustrated.
 
This is a joke, but at this point I legitimately am left wondering if it wouldn't be worth abandoning the reliance on Gamefreak and turning Smogon into a collective pet mod, when they're quite clearly horrible at properly balancing the game in any way, and it's pretty clearly from where I sit that the meta has left the majority of the playerbase frustrated.
exactly. why are we beholden to the whims of a creator who despises our kind in particular? why do we cower behind walls built from archaic policy and meaningless precedent instead of casting off the shackles that we've placed ourselves in and improving the game on our own? why are we letting tradition stand in the way of progress? are we really so afraid of the meta being good? what more do we have to lose but our chains? this speech is definitely not a metaphor
 
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This is a joke, but at this point I legitimately am left wondering if it wouldn't be worth abandoning the reliance on Gamefreak and turning Smogon into a collective pet mod, when they're quite clearly horrible at properly balancing the game in any way, and it's pretty clearly from where I sit that the meta has left the majority of the playerbase frustrated.
Idk if this is a joke but if people wanted to play a pet mod or a balance patch then they'd just play those. This isn't some pokemon exclusive phenomenon: people want to play things that are based on official/conforming sources. Its the same argument that goes "at that point you're not playing a, you're just playing b"

Its also just kinda not worth a discussion when its not on topic or something that will be considered innit
 
exactly. why are we beholden to the whims of a creator who despises our kind in particular? why do we cower behind walls built from archaic policy and meaningless precedent instead of casting off the shackles that we've placed ourselves in and improving the game on our own? why are we letting tradition stand in the way of progress? are we really so afraid of the meta being good? what more do we have to lose but our chains? this speech is definitely not a metaphor
Fucking THANK YOU. The way we chose to implement Sleep Clause alone goes against the game as a whole. Literally! I don't want it gone personally, but Dire Claw and Effect Spore needs to be banned if we really want to keep consistently. But that would be silly, we have no real issues with those.

I'm not even disparaging Game Freak. They have a different idea of the game. That's cool. It may not be our vision. I consider hazard play to be a perfect example. It's only been harder and harder to deal with, and now this! I didn't even know that their focus was doubles until this gen slammed it in my face.

This is our game. They don't do OU, I can't describe Smogon play to the average pokefan, I like the idea of basing it around cartridge play, but it should really be a guide.
 
Mandibuzz and Tusk don't want to take a Toxic from Gliscor, Treads and Gweez don't want to take an EQ. Going from 0 Pokémon that can remove hazards to Corviknight required on every team is not a solution, and even if it was, I cannot understand from a tiering policy perspective how the response to "We have a spikes setter that threatens every hazard remover with stab or toxic and is bulky enough to get 3 spikes up with zero effort" is "clearly the problem is that the one single remover that's not as threatened by this monster can't defog while a completely different Pokémon is out" - can anyone make this make sense for me? Is the fact that none of the otherwise-excellent hazard removers we have can do anything about the spiker with no weaknesses not the problem? Why is buffing one otherwise extremely passive Pokémon by banning a relatively unrelated Pokémon the solution? Really comes off as cope & insane troll logic to me

another way to think of this: our other grounds are fine vs gholdengo and historically have been. Suddenly we have a hazard setter that beats the grounds, and GHOLD is the problem?
I'm going to disagree with the sentiment this last part is implying, because the Grounds (of which we have... 1 that is a Remover in OU and like 2 lower tier ones) being fine into Gholdengo itself doesn't mean Gholdengo isn't constricting the Hazard state as long as it's alive

And as I will bring up EVERY time the bolded argument is made as a strawman or a misunderstanding, THE FEWER REMOVERS WE HAVE THE MORE SIGNIFICANT A SINGLE ONE IMPROVING IS. Going from 0 Hazard removers to 1 WOULD be a marked step up in this hyperbolic scenario, this does not help as an argument that Gholdengo is not radar worthy and would be better ignored when arguing said point (I have made the argument in multiple preceding posts that improving 1-2 Removers like Corviknight is a marked influence on the Meta even with a small quantity of Pokemon improved). One of the reasons Gliscor is such a massive problem is because it runs Circles around the Hazard remover options. Having viable options that Gliscor doesn't exploit totally free would make it less oppressive (even if not becoming balanced), and the grievances expressed with Gholdengo existed before Gliscor's introduction even if they were exacerbated, so it's not like Gliscor being OP immediately shoots down the consideration that Gholdengo is an unhealthy influence as well
 
Fucking THANK YOU. The way we chose to implement Sleep Clause alone goes against the game as a whole. Literally! I don't want it gone personally, but Dire Claw and Effect Spore needs to be banned if we really want to keep consistently. But that would be silly, we have no real issues with those.

I'm not even disparaging Game Freak. They have a different idea of the game. That's cool. It may not be our vision. I consider hazard play to be a perfect example. It's only been harder and harder to deal with, and now this! I didn't even know that their focus was doubles until this gen slammed it in my face.

This is our game. They don't do OU, I can't describe Smogon play to the average pokefan, I like the idea of basing it around cartridge play, but it should really be a guide.
The idea that Gamefreak only balances around doubles because VGC is a myth. The main JP competitive format is BSS, and plenty of balance changes have been specifically with singles in mind. The nerf to Mimikyu for example - while it wasn't a dramatic issue in VGC, it was everywhere in BSS because of how Disguise + Sash gave it two free turns to do anything. This JP site is a pretty good way of understanding what the comp GF actually pays attention to is like.
 
The idea that Gamefreak only balances around doubles because VGC is a myth. The main JP competitive format is BSS, and plenty of balance changes have been specifically with singles in mind. The nerf to Mimikyu for example - while it wasn't a dramatic issue in VGC, it was everywhere in BSS because of how Disguise + Sash gave it two free turns to do anything. This JP site is a pretty good way of understanding what the comp GF actually pays attention to is like.
Oh my bad on that, I thought it was actually a focus in particular.
 
I’m honestly a bit bored right now, so I’ll take a moment to unveil a new Morkal-inspired metagame secret…


IMG_3897.gif

Chimecho! (Chimecho) @ Eviolite / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Calm Nature
- Psychic
- Knock Off
- Heal Bell
- Recover​

Now you may have a few questions, so I’ll try to answer some of them.

1. What exactly does Chimecho do?

Well, Chimecho has the unique benefit of being one of the only Pokémon currently in the game to learn Heal Bell while also having access to Knock Off, Recover AND Levitate as its ability. Knock Off allows it to actually make progress in some way before dying, Heal Bell gives it pretty good leverage against Gliscor by undoing the results of its Toxic spam, STAB Psychic allows it to nail Great Tusk / Iron Valiant and Recover is still Recover. Levitate also helps against Gliscor by making what is usually its only attack useless and checks Great Tusk decently too. Leftovers helps give it some more recovery to keep it alive for longer.

2. Why is Eviolite listed as an item for this set when Chimecho doesn’t even have an evolution (or at least one we don’t know about) yet?

Shhhh…

3. Clefable already exists as a durable Tusk and Gliscor resistant status absorber and Blissey already has Heal Bell. Why wouldn’t I use those instead?

Because gimping your opponent with Chimecho is funny lmao unlike Clefable and Blissey, Chimecho has access to both Knock Off and Heal Bell on the same set, along with Recover not being nerfed under Weather.

this thing is getting an evo anyways so it will probably be better to use that anyways lol
 
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I’m honestly a bit bored right now, so I’ll take a moment to unveil a new Morkal-inspired metagame secret…

Chimecho! (Chimecho) @ Eviolite / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Calm Nature
- Psychic
- Knock Off
- Heal Bell
- Recover​

Now you may have a few questions, so I’ll try to answer some of them.

1. What exactly does Chimecho do?

Well, Chimecho has the unique benefit of being one of the only Pokémon currently in the game to learn Heal Bell while also having access to Knock Off, Recover AND Levitate as its ability. Knock Off allows it to actually make progress in some way before dying, Heal Bell gives it pretty good leverage against Gliscor by undoing the results of its Toxic spam, STAB Psychic allows it to nail Great Tusk / Iron Valiant and Recover is still Recover. Levitate also helps against Gliscor by making what is usually its only attack useless and checks Great Tusk decently too. Leftovers helps give it some more recovery to keep it alive for longer.

2. Why is Eviolite listed as an item for this set when Chimecho doesn’t even have an evolution (or at least one we don’t know about) yet?

Shhhh…

3. Clefable already exists as a durable Tusk and Gliscor resistant status absorber and Blissey already has Heal Bell. Why wouldn’t I use those instead?

Because gimping your opponent with Chimecho is funny lmao unlike Clefable and Blissey, Chimecho has access to both Knock Off and Heal Bell on the same set, along with Recover not being nerfed under Weather.

this thing is getting an evo anyways so it will probably be better to use that anyways lol
this is actually a pretty killer role-compression option on paper, but good lord its stats are fucking garbage. this set would be solid if chimecho had literally any bulk at all (and can you imagine, this is after gen 7 buffed all its defensive stats by 10) or was just really fast

also, where are you getting this info on it evolving?
 
I'm going to disagree with the sentiment this last part is implying, because the Grounds (of which we have... 1 that is a Remover in OU and like 2 lower tier ones) being fine into Gholdengo itself doesn't mean Gholdengo isn't constricting the Hazard state as long as it's alive

And as I will bring up EVERY time the bolded argument is made as a strawman or a misunderstanding, THE FEWER REMOVERS WE HAVE THE MORE SIGNIFICANT A SINGLE ONE IMPROVING IS. Going from 0 Hazard removers to 1 WOULD be a marked step up in this hyperbolic scenario, this does not help as an argument that Gholdengo is not radar worthy and would be better ignored when arguing said point (I have made the argument in multiple preceding posts that improving 1-2 Removers like Corviknight is a marked influence on the Meta even with a small quantity of Pokemon improved). One of the reasons Gliscor is such a massive problem is because it runs Circles around the Hazard remover options. Having viable options that Gliscor doesn't exploit totally free would make it less oppressive (even if not becoming balanced), and the grievances expressed with Gholdengo existed before Gliscor's introduction even if they were exacerbated, so it's not like Gliscor being OP immediately shoots down the consideration that Gholdengo is an unhealthy influence as well
i dont doubt that the game would improve at least a little without Ghold*** but we also have the option to remove the spike setters that actually CAUSE the hazard problem, Gliscor Ting-Lu and probably Samurott, and watch the so-called "Gholdengo Problem" magically disappear on its own as hazards have more of an opportunity cost to set and more healthy removal dynamics can be explored.

***At least a little - defensive Gholdengo is a gift to this tier. When Baxcalibur was ripping OU a new one who rose to the occasion? When annoying Stored Power spammers rise in prominence, who rises to shut them down? Gholdengo's defensive presence and ability to gain offensive momentum with that presence are really nice for this tier and throwing them away because we want to keep 2-3 Ubers in the tier and make corviknight slightly better seems awfully ridiculous to me

also iron treads is a perfectly fine OU Pokémon, it's just outclassed and threatened by tusk, and the two ground type Ubers in the tier


If you want the best way to handle the hazard situation, ban Ghold before banning Gliscor.

Corv is a fantastic defogger that is immune to Toxic and EQ. The problem is it exists in a meta where Ghold exists.

If we had the same Defog distribution as Gen 7-8, people would not complain about Ghold, but as it stands, we don’t have a whole lot of defoggers/spinners.

Gliscor is the best glue in the tier. Checks much of the tier while fulfilling multiple roles. The ironic thing about Gliscor is this.

It helps against hazard stacking because its immune to spikes, absorbs Knock, and Poison Heal shrugs off rocks dmg, and at the same time its the best hazard setter we’ve ever seen in SV OU. Fucking oof.
"Gliscor is the best glue in the tier, it's immune to 7 different types of counterplay and can set spikes better than anything" yeah that's called being broken, great tusk is learning Chinese right now bc of Gliscor, there's a reason that slapping Gliscor on your team is almost always a good choice. Please explain to me how

Gliscor denies Cinderace, Great Tusk, Treads, etc hazard removal + sets spikes + has several immunities including ground, status, knock, hazards, etc + can sweep + can't be worn down + is weak to nothing in the tier's stab = not broken

Gholdengo denies Corviknight hazard removal and sometimes can sweep = broken???
 
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i dont doubt that the game would improve at least a little without Ghold*** but we also have the option to remove the spike setters that actually CAUSE the hazard problem, Gliscor Ting-Lu and probably Samurott, and watch the so-called "Gholdengo Problem" magically disappear on its own as hazards have more of an opportunity cost to set and more healthy removal dynamics can be explored.

***At least a little - defensive Gholdengo is a gift to this tier. When Baxcalibur was ripping OU a new one who rose to the occasion? When annoying Stored Power spammers rise in prominence, who rises to shut them down? Gholdengo's defensive presence and ability to gain offensive momentum with that presence are really nice for this tier and throwing them away because we want to keep 2-3 Ubers in the tier and make corviknight slightly better seems awfully ridiculous to me

also iron treads is a perfectly fine OU Pokémon, it's just outclassed and threatened by tusk, and the two ground type Ubers in the tier




"Gliscor is the best glue in the tier, it's immune to 7 different types of counterplay and can set spikes better than anything" yeah that's called being broken, great tusk is learning Chinese right now bc of Gliscor, there's a reason that slapping Gliscor on your team is almost always a good choice. Please explain to me how

Gliscor denies Cinderace, Great Tusk, Treads, etc hazard removal + sets spikes + has several immunities including ground, status, knock, hazards, etc + can sweep + can't be worn down + is weak to nothing in the tier's stab = not broken

Gholdengo denies Corviknight hazard removal and sometimes can sweep = broken???
so you'd rather ban the spikes setters than the move? isn't this a complete reversal of your opinions on tera? because i'm pretty sure we danced this dance already and last time you were saying that tera blast should go because three mons abused it
 
so you'd rather ban the spikes setters than the move? isn't this a complete reversal of your opinions on tera? because i'm pretty sure we danced this dance already and last time you were saying that tera blast should go because three mons abused it
Why would a move be banned if it's only broken on 3 out of 25+ users

Tera Blast ban (which I don't think is very relevant post DLC btw) was never about Regieleki, Volcarona, and Espathra, as I said at length in the former Tera thread, it was about ANY offensive Pokémon being able to reverse its counterplay and use the turn where it does that + the setup turn it gets from Tera to get a win - Tera blast as a luring tool that any Pokémon could use was my issue with it, not the 3 Pokémon that were banned for using it - you can go visit the now locked Tera thread and see me say the exact same thing

Edit: or just look right here at this screenshot of what I said in that thread on July 18 2023:

A85313DB-4FE1-4F59-9EA6-A714AD197C8C.jpeg
 
Why would a move be banned if it's only broken on 3 out of 25+ users
because the rest of those 25+ users will just replace the 3. sure, it takes more brainpower to get the spikes up with most of those mons, but not that much more. besides, the chances of gliscor, hamurott and ting-lu getting suspected and banned before the end of the gen are far slimmer than the chances of spikes getting suspected and banned. i personally don't think any action should be taken until we see what's up with dlc2 (because they might re-tm defog), but if i were to advocate for a ban on something to solve the hazard issue, it'd be spikes—the solution is extreme but anything else feels inadequate
 
because the rest of those 25+ users will just replace the 3. sure, it takes more brainpower to get the spikes up with most of those mons, but not that much more. besides, the chances of gliscor, hamurott and ting-lu getting suspected and banned before the end of the gen are far slimmer than the chances of spikes getting suspected and banned. i personally don't think any action should be taken until we see what's up with dlc2 (because they might re-tm defog), but if i were to advocate for a ban on something to solve the hazard issue, it'd be spikes—the solution is extreme but anything else feels inadequate
1/3 of those Spikes setters were "replaced" in not existing yet before home, and spikes was a lot more reasonable to go up against and a lot less prevalent. Gliscor specifically I cannot even comprehend you comparing to any other spikes setter, very few Pokémon even beat it let alone ones that can get rid of its spikes, this Mon specifically is leagues above both both Tinglu and Samurott. But let's look at a few examples of the new Pokémon that will replace these if they were removed:

-Clodsire: bulkiest setter without the 2 Uber grounds. Probably pretty good now, also can use Toxic, but the ground weakness really changes the tusk matchup and is very exploitable in general, as is its relative passivity

-Meowscarada: frail and now cannot realistically use a choiced set. Nice offensive spiker

-Greninja: frail and now cannot realistically use a battle bond set. Probably will be pretty good

-Garchomp: chain chomp w, Garchomp continues to be a good Mon and now that it has more of a niche with spikes it gets better. In general this tier is now very lacking in ice type offense without Bax, and Garchomp likes this. However the problems it has now do not change

-Toedscruel: goes back to being the only spiker that goes through hatterene, which is now better due to no samurott

Note that none of these are anywhere near as difficult to break as Tinglu and Gliscor, nor can use their great offenses and set spikes on the same turn. I don't think banning these 3 Pokémon will make spikes fall into obscurity but it will make it less dominating and take more effort and be less reliable to set up. If they're still an oppressive archetype then maybe we can talk about further action but I think these 3 Pokémon are unique, Gliscor significantly more suffocating than the other two
 
1/3 of those Spikes setters were "replaced" in not existing yet before home, and spikes was a lot more reasonable to go up against and a lot less prevalent. Gliscor specifically I cannot even comprehend you comparing to any other spikes setter, very few Pokémon even beat it let alone ones that can get rid of its spikes, this Mon specifically is leagues above both both Tinglu and Samurott. But let's look at a few examples of the new Pokémon that will replace these if they were removed:

-Clodsire: bulkiest setter without the 2 Uber grounds. Probably pretty good now, also can use Toxic, but the ground weakness really changes the tusk matchup and is very exploitable in general, as is its relative passivity

-Meowscarada: frail and now cannot realistically use a choiced set. Nice offensive spiker

-Greninja: frail and now cannot realistically use a battle bond set. Probably will be pretty good

-Garchomp: chain chomp w, Garchomp continues to be a good Mon and now that it has more of a niche with spikes it gets better. In general this tier is now very lacking in ice type offense without Bax, and Garchomp likes this. However the problems it has now do not change

-Toedscruel: goes back to being the only spiker that goes through hatterene, which is now better due to no samurott

Note that none of these are anywhere near as difficult to break as Tinglu and Gliscor, nor can use their great offenses and set spikes on the same turn. I don't think banning these 3 Pokémon will make spikes fall into obscurity but it will make it less dominating and take more effort and be less reliable to set up. If they're still an oppressive archetype then maybe we can talk about further action but I think these 3 Pokémon are unique, Gliscor significantly more suffocating than the other two
sure, you wrote words there, but you haven't addressed the fact that bans of those 3 pokemon will not happen. if we couldn't band together and kick out something as nakedly broken as kingambit, what makes you think that suspects for all three of those mons, all more ambiguous than gambit, would be successful? i think that, instead of arguing amongst ourselves over whether it's gholdengo or gliscor or hamurott or spikes or low defog distribution that's causing the problem, all the anti-hazardstack camps should rally behind a single tiering option. i believe that targeting spikes is the most likely option to succeed because it only requires one suspect test instead of three or more, and it's a much more conclusive and concrete solution to the hazard problem than banning gholdengo
 
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