Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Zamazenta is balanced in OU tho...

Bro picked the worst mon to try make this point with
It should really be the “Reshiram Theorem”. The thing has been unviable in Ubers ever since Primal Groudon became a thing (even that takes up the niche of a Fire-type Special attacker better than Reshiram over in Ubers), but it’s still gonna be a pain in the ass for OU to handle. Nevermind Dragon Dance being a viable (and potentially overwhelming) option for it to run in OU with 120 Atk, a Mold Breaker clone, 120 BP Fire STAB in Flare Blitz and better bulk than what Mega Charizard X had. Sure, no Earthquake, but considering Firepon was just banned a week ago with Mold Breaker + Swords Dance and effectively 120 BP Fire STAB, Reshiram is still gonna burn up the meta in the exact same way with its 150 SpA and 130 BP Special Fire STAB making it even more of a threat.
 
I think they mean gen 8 zamazenta, a mon that was dogshit in ubers so it was tested but turned out to be extremely unhealthy in ou. Also crowned form in this gen of ou. Bad uber performance doesn't correlate to a balanced mon, just showcases the extreme power of some legendaries.

Don't know if it fits the darkrai/shaymin convo, since I think people aren't arguing from them being bad ubers but being powercrept (please don't argue with me I have no opinions about it and I think you're all wasting your time)
Yeah. You can't really call Zama "balanced" when the only way to make it workable was to gimp its entire gimmick. Never mind that, once Tera's suspect happens, the HO in the meta will drop, and Zamazenta will likely, again, be just too powerful for the tier to be healthy.
 
Yeah. You can't really call Zama "balanced" when the only way to make it workable was to gimp its entire gimmick. Never mind that, once Tera's suspect happens, the HO in the meta will drop, and Zamazenta will likely, again, be just too powerful for the tier to be healthy.
Slower-paced teams feast on Zamazenta. If anything Zama will get worse if Tera gets banned since it won't be able to take advantage of as many frail HO mons.
 
tera preview is the only "modification" that's on the table at the moment, and i believe it's the only surviving middle-ground option—stab-only tera was a joke, tera captain was in my opinion the most interesting premise but didn't get any traction, and i haven't heard much from any of the tera blast ban people since the dlc dropped
I personally wanna ban tera blast but tera preview is still a good option, as it stands i wanna have some kind of tera action
 
Yeah. You can't really call Zama "balanced" when the only way to make it workable was to gimp its entire gimmick. Never mind that, once Tera's suspect happens, the HO in the meta will drop, and Zamazenta will likely, again, be just too powerful for the tier to be healthy.
Once the meta slows, Zama gets easier to handle because bulkier playstyles have multiple outs and checks vs it that are very good.

No tera is bad for Zama which could no longer abuse various types to easily reverse match ups and gain huge momentum.
 
The Darkrai conversation is always so weird to me because it seems to be in between Hypnosis and Nasty Plot, and ignoring the rather practical movepool it has. Forget Hypnosis, it has Taunt, Will O Wisp, Trick, and Thunder Wave, which seem like wild card tools to cripple would be checks or walls. It attack options is alright, with options to deal with dark, fighting and fairies who would otherwise resist its STAB, oh and Ice Beam if you just want a good coverage move. Its basically faster than the entire unboosted meta other than Dragapult and Jolly Zamazenta (Timid Darkrai beats Neutral Speed nature on Zamazenta!). And 90 attack makes me wonder if a few mixed sets could beat Dragapult with sucker punch. Specs, Stallbreaker, Wallbreaker, Scarf, Nasty Plot, AoA, and I wouldn't be surprised if a Calm Mind set sneaks in. Darkrai can't do this stuff in Ubers cause of the power levels, but in OU, it's much less one dimensional.

Add in Tera to the mix and it's going to be just another unwallable wallbreaker who can sweep and clean any teams without a +1 speed options left (Or Dragapult or Zamazenta) with a lot of options to do it, and people are still dwelling on Hypnosis being the crux it's viability. There might be an OU meta that can deal with a Darkrai in it, but it's not this one yet.
 
Darkrai suffers having "only" 3 slots, u are forced to choose

1 thunder for the 2kho on dozo
2 sludge bomb for the 2kho on max def clefable at +0 and miss the 2kho on full sdef clefable
3 focus blast for ting lu/dark/blissey
4 psyshock can be a gimmick but can hit blissey harder than fblast without miss
5 ice beam which is probably the easiest way to hit tusk (76.9 - 90.7%) against max hp max def tusk

but i think is pretty easy against a stall/balanced have the "right set" and 6-0 easily, or maybe even drop something and go for taunt.

+2 252 SpA Tera Fighting Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 470-554 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tera Fighting Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 504-594 (98 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

it require tera but be close to okho on blissey only after a nasty plot is insane; manaphy at +6 has 10.9% chance to 2HKO blissey with surf

against ho, it can hit almost like lorb greninja without life orb

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Abomasnow: 165-195 (43 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Abomasnow: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

while having 125 speed and (ideally) hbd as item without recoil, so isn't totally a dead slot against an offensive team. Still too strong for ou.
 
Darkrai suffers having "only" 3 slots, u are forced to choose

1 thunder for the 2kho on dozo
2 sludge bomb for the 2kho on max def clefable at +0 and miss the 2kho on full sdef clefable
3 focus blast for ting lu/dark/blissey
4 psyshock can be a gimmick but can hit blissey harder than fblast without miss
5 ice beam which is probably the easiest way to hit tusk (76.9 - 90.7%) against max hp max def tusk

but i think is pretty easy against a stall/balanced have the "right set" and 6-0 easily, or maybe even drop something and go for taunt.

+2 252 SpA Tera Fighting Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 470-554 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tera Fighting Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 504-594 (98 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

it require tera but be close to okho on blissey only after a nasty plot is insane; manaphy at +6 has 10.9% chance to 2HKO blissey with surf

against ho, it can hit almost like lorb greninja without life orb

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Abomasnow: 165-195 (43 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Abomasnow: 153-181 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

while having 125 speed and (ideally) hbd as item without recoil, so isn't totally a dead slot against an offensive team. Still too strong for ou.
And with tera none of these calcs matter since well it can just blow through stuff anyway by clicking a defensive tera for a free nasty plot and sweeping a team like Kingambit does right now.

Point being if we got rid of tera this meta would likely be in a better spot honestly, and then Darkrai would be potentially a reasonable test in a non-tera meta.

Also Darkrai is reliant on focus blast to hit gambit, not a move anyone would wanna run on a darkrai, so there is that too.
 
Darkrai only needs tera blast fairy and dark pulse to break through most of OU at +2. Add in nasty plot and taunt to shutdown haze pex, blissey, and fat in general. Seems most threatening on screens. Dragapult can’t revenge kill with dragon stab for fear of tera fairy. Keep this out of OU please.
 
Seeing the Darkrai debate honestly reminds me of people’s reactions to Zamazenta-H and Ursaluna.
Darkrai is all these scary traits. It’s fast, strong, can sweep, has good coverage, etc. However that’s literally the entire meta currently and will likely still be the meta in the future. And frankly compared to other current OU Pokemon it’s kind of mid.
 
Seeing the Darkrai debate honestly reminds me of people’s reactions to Zamazenta-H and Ursaluna.
Darkrai is all these scary traits. It’s fast, strong, can sweep, has good coverage, etc. However that’s literally the entire meta currently and will likely still be the meta in the future. And frankly compared to other current OU Pokemon it’s kind of mid.
counterpoint: it's been nearly a year and we still haven't cleaned up all the fallout from launch, let alone home and the dlc. darkrai would be an annoyance at the absolute least, but most likely yet another broken thing we'll have to debate about, then survey, then have the council vote on. the meta is already unbalanced and, within the timeframe we've been given before dlc2, likely unbalanceable. why would we introduce yet another element with even the potential to still be broken at this stage? it's like introducing an invasive species to a superfund site and expecting everything to somehow work out
 
Seeing the Darkrai debate honestly reminds me of people’s reactions to Zamazenta-H and Ursaluna.
Darkrai is all these scary traits. It’s fast, strong, can sweep, has good coverage, etc. However that’s literally the entire meta currently and will likely still be the meta in the future. And frankly compared to other current OU Pokemon it’s kind of mid.
See, I feel like it’s easy to point out “people overhyped Zama-H and Ursaluna and Walking Wake!!” But this point, while parroted to death, is relatively meaningless. Of course people’s first impressions are not always accurate. Hindsight bias will always emphasize those cases. But what about the times where “fast, strong” sweepers were kept out of OU for good cause and after a good amount of anticipation? Chien-Pao? Zama-C? Not as provocative to bring those up. As far as Darkrai being mid, I don’t agree but I’m sure this has been debated to death already too.
 

veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Contributor to Smogon
Walking Wake
I wouldn't even say Walking Wake was overhyped, probably would've been banned if people actually used the special attack boosting set back in pre home instead of the speed boost set that actually had defensive counterplay
 
One thing that people advocating for a Darkrai drop don't understand is that Darkrai hasn't even been nerfed like Zamazenta was this gen. In fact, Darkrai was buffed by gaining Psyshock to its movepool unlike many old gen Pokemon who got nerfed by losing access to core moves from their movepools in the past. Darkrai at +2 with a Life Orb OHKOes Enamorus and deals huge damage to Clefable if it invests in Special Defense rather than Defense, meaning it can beat Fairy-type Pokemon without Sludge Bomb while also improving its match-up against sturdy special walls such as Blissey and Clodsire. And for whoever suggested that Dondozo is a switch-in, Dark Pulse 2HKOes the standard Dondozo set.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 312-368 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 302-355 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 348-411 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 247-292 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

You know what has been nerfed though if it returns through DLC? Genesect, which a datamine revealed that it lost Extreme Speed, Shift Gear, and Rock Polish, meaning it lost a lot of its ability to clean offensive teams in the lategame, and its Choice Band set wouldn't be able to revenge weakened faster targets anymore. If there is a previous Uber worth testing if it returns this gen, it'd be Genesect. I always thought it was a mistake to test Genesect in Gen 7 when hardly anything had changed aside from Toxapex's release, which admittedly, checked some of its sets well while also not getting wrecked by chip 'cause of Regenerator.
 
You know what has been nerfed though if it returns through DLC? Genesect, which a datamine revealed that it lost Extreme Speed, Shift Gear, and Rock Polish, meaning it lost a lot of its ability to clean offensive teams in the lategame, and its Choice Band set wouldn't be able to revenge weakened faster targets anymore.
I'd be willing to wager we're going to get all the Unova Legendaries. Khu recently dropped a clue on his Twitter which forms an idiom meaning "extremely faithful", which if you know anything about the memes surrounding BDSP means we're probably getting an equivalent game for BW1.
 
I'd be willing to wager we're going to get all the Unova Legendaries. Khu recently dropped a clue on his Twitter which forms an idiom meaning "extremely faithful", which if you know anything about the memes surrounding BDSP means we're probably getting an equivalent game for BW1.
How far away is the release of that game though? I would think that game is coming out during the 3-year cycle for the Gen 10 games rather than Scarlet/Violet.
 
If there is a previous Uber worth testing if it returns this gen, it'd be Genesect.
why are people like this. why can't we just focus on what we have instead of introducing new bullshit, especially bullshit that's been introduced into ou and immediately banned for four generations in a row? can we as a community please stop having this abusive relationship with genesect? every time we let its armor-plated ass back into the house it swears up and down that "no, baby, i've changed this time, trust me" and it's just like old times for like two seconds before it starts running the scarf sets again and ou starts showing up to work with a black eye all "oh yeah whoops i fell down the stairs, how clumsy of me" but we all know what's actually happening, it's that fucking bug again, every time, and of course the neighbors all start gossiping like "i don't know why they keep letting that genesect come back, what do they see in it anyway", and then come the shouting matches and the broken dinner plates and the court orders and the disappointed voicemails from the parents because they have to be voicemails since genesect won't even let you talk on the fucking phone without its permission and before you know it you're as divorced as this metaphor is from the actual point i was trying to make
 
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why are people like this. why can't we just focus on what we have instead of introducing new bullshit, especially bullshit that's been introduced into ou and immediately banned for four generations in a row? can we as a community please stop having this abusive relationship with genesect?
Genesect got bum-rushed by Gamefreak though, losing the move that allowed it to clean teams and losing much of its revenge-killing capability. I'd say this is a nerf on par or maybe slightly less impactful than Zamazenta losing 10 Base Attack with Dauntless Shield only activating once per game. It boggles my mind that some people are screaming for Darkrai to be unbanned when it literally got buffed this gen. Granted, Gamefreak can still change its mind and give Genesect its moves back since it's still unreleased, so maybe it can still be as good as it used to be.
 
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Genesect got bum-rushed by Gamefreak though, losing the move that allowed it to clean teams and losing much of its revenge-killing capability. I'd say this is a nerf on par or maybe slightly less impactful than Zamazenta losing 10 Base Attack with Dauntless Shield only activating once per game. It boggles my mind that some people are screaming for Darkrai to be unbanned when it literally got buffed this gen. Granted, Gamefreak can still change its mind and give Genesect its moves back since it's still unreleased, so maybe it can still be as good as it used to be.
Darkrai wasn't nerfed this gen, but was in Gen VII and to my knowledge wasn't tested then. That's where most of the "free Darkrai" movement comes from
 
Darkrai wasn't nerfed this gen, but was in Gen VII and to my knowledge wasn't tested then. That's where most of the "free Darkrai" movement comes from
i reckon that if gen 7's council was the one we have now, darkrai might have started out ou because of that nerf (and then been banned because it was and is still broken), but of course gen 7 took place in hawaii so the council decided to go on vacation all gen
 
I was wondering if Cyclizar is good in OU? It seems like a decent utility Pokémon with knock, u-turn, taunt and most importantly, rapid spin. It’s very fast so it can act as speed control, and it’s hazard removal that can threaten ghold (With overheat or knock off). Basically I’m asking what’s holding it back from being OU?
 

Karxrida

Eventide (art by @kzhjp)
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
why are people like this. why can't we just focus on what we have instead of introducing new bullshit, especially bullshit that's been introduced into ou and immediately banned for four generations in a row? can we as a community please stop having this abusive relationship with genesect? every time we let its armor-plated ass back into the house it swears up and down that "no, baby, i've changed this time, trust me" and it's just like old times for like two seconds before it starts running the scarf sets again and ou starts showing up to work with a black eye all "oh yeah whoops i fell down the stairs, how clumsy of me" but we all know what's actually happening, it's that fucking bug again, every time, and of course the neighbors all start gossiping like "i don't know why they keep letting that genesect come back, what do they see in it anyway", and then come the shouting matches and the broken dinner plates and the court orders and the disappointed voicemails from the parents because they have to be voicemails since genesect won't even let you talk on the fucking phone without its permission and before you know it you're as divorced as this metaphor is from the actual point i was trying to make
The view from your Shaymin-shaped glass house must be amazing.
 
I was wondering if Cyclizar is good in OU? It seems like a decent utility Pokémon with knock, u-turn, taunt and most importantly, rapid spin. It’s very fast so it can act as speed control, and it’s hazard removal that can threaten ghold (With overheat or knock off). Basically I’m asking what’s holding it back from being OU?
it has 70/65/65 bulk. It can't threaten gholdengo because it only has 95 attack, 85 spA , after its air balloon has popped, you're only doing:
252 Atk Cyclizar Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 120-142 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You can go special but remember it halves in damage every turn, and this is to a gholdengo with zero bulk.
252 SpA Cyclizar Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 230-272 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cyclizar wants to rapid spin but it struggles to switch in on anything unless it runs max bulk, in which case its not doing anywhere near the damage in those calcs. If it doesnt run boots thats extra damage it take every switch in. If it doesnt run assault vest then:
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cyclizar: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you run max bulk and just rapid spin and knock off to annoy the opposing team its passable, actually annoying for stall teams thanks to regen, but check out the top 10 in OU, there isnt one pokemon in there you matchup well against.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
I remember before the dlc came out some leaks were saying that scorching sand would return.
it is dissapointing that it didn't.

it wouldn't be enough to save moltress from dropping from OU but it would still make it a stronger pokemon since that move is a ground-type version of scald.

I wonder if this move will return on the second dlc.

anyway, can someone explain to me why galarian weezing is running 176 speed EVS?
does it really need to outrun adamant kingambit?
its not like it can get a 2HKO with strange steam.

also what teamates does weezing galar need in order to function in OU?
I have tried multyple times putting it in teams with barely any success.
 
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