Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Gliscor suspect]

As much as I'd like to see Palafin test and would support giving it a shot now- I know it has a better shot in a tera blast ban meta with volc and eleki both back.

I do think enough conversation has been generated to warrant a new survey.. not 3 months later.. direction appears too unclear to proceed in any direction at the moment.
Having another survey less than two weeks after the last survey isn’t on the table.

Tera Blast clearly lacks support. Look at the prior surveys it was included in, look at the initial PR thread on it, and even look at the more recent PR thread touching on it: safe to say that it’s not going anywhere unless there’s a sizable shift
 
Having another survey less than two weeks after the last survey isn’t on the table.

Tera Blast clearly lacks support. Look at the prior surveys it was included in, look at the initial PR thread on it, and even look at the more recent PR thread touching on it: safe to say that it’s not going anywhere unless there’s a sizable shift
Most recent PR thread seemed kinda 50/50 to me.... Was it on a survey other than 2 years ago? Maybe I've missed it. I won't harp on the subject I know many do, every page.. But it does seem like there has been a shift.. Nothing further.
 
Most recent PR thread seemed kinda 50/50 to me.... Was it on a survey other than 2 years ago? Maybe I've missed it. I won't harp on the subject I know many do, every page.. But it does seem like there has been a shift.. Nothing further.
The Raptor thread clearly wasn’t 50/50 on Tera Blast and the first thread I made based on Vert’s proposal was clearly insufficient support of Tera Blast. Read through both threads if you’d like.
 
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Ban Air balloon or make all other items for type immunities day 3

Air Balloon showing up in this guy's house

Balloony.png


I think the only solution that could satisfy everyone is to give every mon with EQ access to Thousand Arrows, sounds fair to me

but srsly, what did Air Balloon do to you man? Like the only mon that runs it semiconsistently is Heatran and Tera Grass Heatran is like miles better. also Ghold but thats just if u dont know how to use Ghold
 
This isn't theorymoning in your book? The reason I thought we brought Darkrai down was because there were enough checks and counters in OU and now it's on the precipice of a suspect test. 1 ban in volc and all that theorymoning went out the window.
I know you said you were done with this, so apologies for dredging it up, but I did want to chime in on the topic itself, which your post does make a good entry point for.

There is a test done in this particular instance to alleviate whether the Meta with the dropped mon is a problematic one based just on theory alone. Technically the Darkrai comparison with Volcarona doesn't hold because we're supposed to tier for the Meta with the Suspect Candidate in it being good or bad, so if Volc was legal and the Meta with it was considered fair to play with Darkrai in it, that would be the criteria for a DNB verdict by policy (obviously subjective per voter).

The main difference between a Suspect-out and a Suspect-in is that Suspect-in by nature will lack for any data to go on besides theory, at least as far as whether or not it's worth a shot, while Suspect-out is based on a meta we've been playing and have more tangible/concrete data or experience to judge the Meta-with-the-suspect. Suspects to ban thus discourage future-meta considerations since we already have a game state with the mon in it to evaluate as healthy or not.

I consider the goal of a Suspect in either case to be ending up in a good Meta afterwards. Optimal or not, the main goal is to not be in a Bad Meta when it could be a Good one post-Suspect, so if the state of things is unacceptable before the test, then we should be removing the element regardless. If the Meta before is bad AND the Meta after is bad, then the suspect element wasn't the sole root of the problems regardless and thus shouldn't have stayed. For drops it's the same point: we test to see if the Meta with the former-Uber is acceptable, whether or not the Meta without it is already so.
 
I finished in the top 30 of the OU ladder this season (yippieee :boi:(Alolan Muk is the goat facts were made)) so after playing a looot this last week I can clearly say I don't think that Darkrai should be banned. If a suspect is demanded by the community I'd gladly participate and give my thoughts, and if the Pokémon gets banned in the end because most of the voters wanted it gone I won't complain since I can also understand de Ban side.

Darkrai has a lot healthy answers as I stated earlier. You can easily name 15 mons that can deal/ do serious damage to Darkrai and Darkrai really struggles to switch in. 7 out of the 10 Pokemon in top 10 usage can either RK once it’s chipped or just 1v1 it. So I don’t think it’a broken, it’s very good, imo.

However, I think that Garg and Gliscor atm are the two Pokémon that are the most problematic in OU. I also think that Ghold or Gambit could be looked as always but yeah Gliscor and Garg are like a 3,5-4/5 imo. Garg is a tera hog, but if it has the tera it needs it can easily 4v1 the opponent. Gliscor restricts the teambuilder a lot and has too much utility.

On uber stuff maybe Palafin and non TB Eleki & Volc could be tested, I don't think any other Uber has the potential to be even a possibility of being retesed for now. I know they're mostly theorised as a joke, and some of them on paper actually do not seem that strong…
But I think that in practice, things can get much more complicated than what can be anticipated due to tera.
 
Darkrai has a lot healthy answers as I stated earlier. You can easily name 15 mons that can deal/ do serious damage to Darkrai and Darkrai really struggles to switch in. 7 out of the 10 Pokemon in top 10 usage can either RK once it’s chipped or just 1v1 it. So I don’t think it’a broken, it’s very good, imo.

However, I think that Garg and Gliscor atm are the two Pokémon that are the most problematic in OU. I also think that Ghold or Gambit could be looked as always but yeah Gliscor and Garg are like a 3,5-4/5 imo. Garg is a tera hog, but if it has the tera it needs it can easily 4v1 the opponent. Gliscor restricts the teambuilder a lot and has too much utility.

You didn't even say which specific mons for answering Darkrai. Being able to damage and RK doesn't make something necessarily balanced. The pool of defensive answers isn't that big when you consider its wide range of options, and while offensive counterplay exists it still isn't as high as some might suggest, especially since it's able to disrupt these offensive options potentially with options like TWave/Wisp and enable its teammates.

Also really? Gliscor isn't even near its peak from DLC1 where it was contentiously broken. How are you going to argue it's a problem? Garg too, while undeniably top tier at this point, how are you going to argue it's problematic? If anything it's presence is a necessary one given it and Ting-Lu are pretty much carrying balance at this point and allowing them to be with consistency at all. Might be a hot take to a degree but that's how I've felt.
 
just sharing this b4 i go to sleep


also welcone iron crown to the tier!! what did y'all feel about the tier shiftrys?
I understand some of the drops. Serp is cool, but a bit Tera reliant, making it awkward to build around with, esp cause partners like Garg are also Tera Reliant. While I see a lot of Torkoal on the ladder, it is also one of the worst Pokemon in terms of "game feel" given how much it can feel like a liability in so many MUs. Sun is also quite interesting in how easy it is to lose with it. I lose with sun almost every time I use it. While I can find it tough to beat with fat teams, it also can be trivially easy to beat. Some games, I'm not able to exert any hazard pressure on Torkoal, yet I'm still able to win with Regen cores, Protecting with Gliscor / Garg, priority support from Dragonite / Gambit, Zama outspeeding everything, my own protosynthesis Tusk, Raging Bolt, or Gouging Fire, etc. It really impresses me whenever someone is able to take a Sun team high up on the ladder given all the teambuilding & usability restrictions it has.

I'm surprised by Rimbombee dropping. I see it so often still, and still find Webs to be extremely annoying to play against.

As for other potential drops, the main one I'm surprised by is Skarmory. I don't think this mon is amazing perse, but its performed fine every time I've run it. Its really nice how easily it can setup Spikes against key opponents like Great Tusk, Kingambit, certain Slowking-G variants, etc. Rocky Helmet support is also invaluable, though I've fiddled around with some other shitty items like Covert Cloak on a few builds (which worked well enough). I don't think its relegated to balance either - its pretty fun on bulky offense as well.

Moltres and Iron Crown rising is really cool. I think both have some really nice traits, though they each come with a meager trade off of some rough MUs with Gking, Ting-Lu, etc. Iron Crown is really neat though in that it can run a wide variety of viable sets that can help against offense teams relying on Glimmora, Ribombee, or Alolan Nintales. Moltres is similarly versitile in terms of move choice, with many different move set options & Teras + has a lot of great MUs against annoying mons like Tusk, Gambit, and Zamazenta. That being said, it is annoying how easily Moltres can be crippled by Knock Off.
 
Do you have any examples of this? I am pretty much 0tol with this and have been deleting posts on here and blocking people on Twitter who act this way. Even if people disagree with me or say something that’s a bit silly, there’s never room to harass people.
Apologies for the late reply. I'm not someone whos deeply effected by it on a personal level so i can look back there if you want some evidence but im not rushing off to do that myself.

I just enjoy playing pokemon and this forum is a great place to discuss the game, dogpiling is just another thing on this forum that steers it away from productive discussion.

This is no fault of you or any of the other "high profile" accounts. People who win tournaments or moderate rooms, anytime they speak theres usually a crowd who follow behind shouting "yeah thats right" and then arent afraid to toss around insults to people disagreeing with the OP, because those "qualifications" make their opinion undisputable fact.

Again, its not your fault at all, and im sure youre keeping a good eye on the room to stop it devolving into nonsense.
 
What did I witness today? The message at the end makes me laugh:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2153580441
That's what we call, a low ladder experience.
People using trash sets and getting mad either when they are called out for there trash sets or lose (this is especially the case when they play against stall, you could create a entire artwork made of salty quotes from low ladder facing stall).
Also those sets were horrendous. LO Blissey and Corv, Lefties protect glimmora, DD wisp Pult and Scale Shot Mola. My god, I don't even want to know what they were cooking with ghold :row:
 
Strangely, Meowscarada can learn Power Gem which it can surprise Moltres and OHKO it.

Special Meowscarada has better matchups against Dodonzo thanks to 120 BP Grass Knot against it, but it hurts quite more on the Blissey and Clodsire matchup.

Gliscor has Crabhammer, which it can be used in Swords Dance sets, it can even 2HKO a non physically defensive Great Tusk uninvested in Attack, if water tera is applied it has 25% chance to OHKO it.
 
You didn't even say which specific mons for answering Darkrai. Being able to damage and RK doesn't make something necessarily balanced. The pool of defensive answers isn't that big when you consider its wide range of options, and while offensive counterplay exists it still isn't as high as some might suggest, especially since it's able to disrupt these offensive options potentially with options like TWave/Wisp and enable its teammates.

Imma quote the post where I said which are, imo, all viable. I'll also add to the list tera water Glowking thunder waving/ Toxic and then pivoting to a mon that will more easily deal with the crippled Darkrai.

I think that the tier has answers to tame Darkrai most of the time.
Priority just fucks Darkrai, and there are some really easy to slap mons than can revenge kill. DNite + Gambit (which is not a bad combo by any means) stops Darkrai in its tracks if it's not wisp and gets a wisp on both either if teras or not. Did Darkrai tera? Ok now it's weak to Gambit and Gambit can tera out of Focus Blast weakness. Tera was wasted / Darkrai didn't use it? Cool Dnite wins 1v1.
Vacuum Wave from IValiant and Grassy Glide from Rilla if not tera, Zamazenta outspeeding, same with Pult, Banded Scizor, Speed Proto Boost Tusk/ IValiant... You can slap a lot of stuff that can revenge Darkrai and/or stop a sweep. Raging Bolt with Specs can kill after a bit of chip damage with Thunderclap for example. And I think that most of this mons can find a place in a balance team / BO team. I haven't mentioned Waterpon / Prim either that can exchange their tera to win the 1v1, or Speed Boost Iron Moth that if Darkrai gets chipped it can actually use it to start its sweep, etcetera.

Also, tera is a valuable resource both players have. If Darkrai wasted tera to get a kill / boost, now you have the tera advantage. I know it's a kinda weak argument, but exchanging teras is one of the points of keeping it in the tier tbh. If the argument for -almost- any broken mon is gonna be its tera options, then... We could seriously debate about tera? But because we're not going to take that path, we have to accept that exchanging tera vs Darkrai is a legitimate strategy.

As for the defensive answers, the thing is you can also make that argument about Waterpon, Kyurem, Roaring Moon (curiously the four of them are together on the usage stats), and unironically Raging Bolt. So while this is true for Darkrai, is also true for basically any breaker in the tier.
Darkrai can slap utility yeah and that means it has less coverage to hit all its checks. It can't hit everything it wants with 2 or even 3 damaging moves and I think that balances it. The fact that Darkrai can cripple its answers can, again, be said for Kyurem with freeze, Raging Bolt with para etctera.
Is it good? For sure, really good I'd say.
Do I find it broken? No, imo it's not broken.

Also really? Gliscor isn't even near its peak from DLC1 where it was contentiously broken. How are you going to argue it's a problem? Garg too, while undeniably top tier at this point, how are you going to argue it's problematic? If anything it's presence is a necessary one given it and Ting-Lu are pretty much carrying balance at this point and allowing them to be with consistency at all. Might be a hot take to a degree but that's how I've felt.

Gliscor is not as powerful as in DLC1, I agree. But that does not mean it's really hard to face and most of the arguments made for a lot of Pokémon (not a lot of answers for most all of its sets, a lot of utility inside its kit, contrains teambuilder...) can also be argued for Gliscor. You're a Toxic away from basically losing your breaker if it's defensive, and since SD sets usually also pack Protect, it can actually turn the tables and get a big hit on a defensive pivot thinking it can safely switch in. Gliscor (as Garg btw) can by using its strong residual move (Gliscor is toxic, Garg is Salt cure) cripple an offensive mon and most probably win it 1v1. I found their easy way to punish almost every mon in almost every team structure (asides from Clefable ig, which I actually found quite meh if not for this two matchups) not really healthy. This is just my point of view tbh.

For example, you mention Ting-Lu and I actually find it a really cool mon in the tier with its clear limitation in not any recovery aside from Leftovers for example, and not being able to "sweep" or easily clean games since it doesn't have a boosting move.

I may be too biased aganist Gliscor tho... But I tried to make a solid point ^^" but I could be wrong ofc, I always like to debate about this stuff:)
 
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Imma quote the post where I said which are, imo, all viable. I'll also add to the list tera water Glowking thunder waving/ Toxic and then pivoting to a mon that will more easily deal with the crippled Darkrai.

It's rather easy to exploit the forced use of Tera by the rest of Darkrai's team which is why i've never been a fan of this kind of argument, since it often puts the opponent in a lose of resources.

Before I touch on the next bit, I wanna address the offensive counterplay you listed before. Gambit/Dragonite is good, but it does struggle with Wisp variants as Darkrai being able to cripple both goes a long way to aiding its teammates to sweep later as they're threatened less by the burned prio users. Vacuum Wave Valiant... how many people are using that? Val already has crowded moveslots on every single set and I can't think of a reason you'd ever want it over the many better options. Rilla can only really revenge kill and Rilla actually does struggle a bit into certain Darkrai structures that tend to pack fat offensive resists to its grassy glide which makes it not as useful as you'd think. Banded Scizor is fine, if a bit hard to fit sometimes but it's a good answer I'll give you that. Specs Raging Bolt though... can't comment on how practical that actually is since I haven't seen it used in higher level play but I'm personally not a fan of it in concept because it's dependance on a priority move that fails if the opponen doesn't attack actually can be really exploitable, especially by protect users which are common on Balance.

For the record, I appreciate you bringing these examples. I think it's helpful and adds to discussion a lot. That said, I do have issues with some of them mainly because they're rather circumstantial answers. Obviously Kingambit may check Darkrai without Wisp/FB, or Dragonite/Gambit can help vs it without Wisp or FB+Ice Beam, but it's difficult to gleam what it's running from the outset of battle and potentially guessing wrong can give the Darkrai user a massive advantage. This goes for Zama and Tusk too which get ruined by wisp variants (and knock off cripples Zama). This is all disregarding the threat of Specs which has such immediate power that you'd want to respect its possibility quite highly. Switching in Zama expecting nasty plot only to eat a specs sludge bomb is nasty.

As for the defensive answers, the thing is you can also make that argument about Waterpon, Kyurem, Roaring Moon (curiously the four of them are together on the usage stats), and unironically Raging Bolt. So while this is true for Darkrai, is also true for basically any breaker in the tier.
Darkrai can slap utility yeah and that means it has less coverage to hit all its checks. It can't hit everything it wants with 2 or even 3 damaging moves and I think that balances it. The fact that Darkrai can cripple its answers can, again, be said for Kyurem with freeze, Raging Bolt with para etctera.
Is it good? For sure, really good I'd say.
Do I find it broken? No, imo it's not broken.

Now then, I don't disagree about Wellspring or Kyurem necessarily (Roaring Moon actually has fairly adequate counterplay right now between priority, chip and contact punishing, sticky barb clef and other strategies), the difference is that these pokemon aren't as volatile in their set possibilities which makes prepping for them more straightforward. I'd love to axe Kyurem too, and don't care for Wellspring, but I think But Darkrai's versatility and how punishing guessing the wrong set can be is, I believe, too much.

Not sure what Raging Bolt is listed for though. Undeniably great, but it's also honestly the most overhyped pokemon in terms of presence and impact. It rarely ever sweeps because it's something fairly straightforward to prep for and it's much more prone to chip due to its low speed and often being drawn in to defensively check things, which results in it being fairly easy to limit longterm. Again, great mon but I don't think it's anywhere remotely close to the big three balance breakers, let alone problematic.

Gliscor is not as powerful as in DLC1, I agree. But that does not mean it's really hard to face and most of the arguments made for a lot of Pokémon (not a lot of answers for most all of its sets, a lot of utility inside its kit, contrains teambuilder...) can also be argued for Gliscor. You're a Toxic away from basically losing your breaker if it's defensive, and since SD sets usually also pack Protect, it can actually turn the tables and get a big hit on a defensive pivot thinking it can safely switch in. Gliscor (as Garg btw) can by using its strong residual move (Gliscor is toxic, Garg is Salt cure) cripple an offensive mon and most probably win it 1v1. I found their easy way to punish almost every mon in almost every team structure (asides from Clefable ig, which I actually found quite meh if not for this two matchups) not really healthy. This is just my point of view tbh.

For example, you mention Ting-Lu and I actually find it a really cool mon in the tier with its clear limitation in not any recovery aside from Leftovers for example, and not being able to "sweep" or easily clean games since it doesn't have a boosting move.

I may be too biased aganist Gliscor tho... But I tried to make a solid point ^^" but I could be wrong ofc, I always like to debate about this stuff:)

Gliscor's great, no denying it, but there are match ups where the aggressive pace of some teams don't give it as many opportunities to be annoying and it especially dislikes the presence of Kyurem and Wellspring, the latter especially punishing SD sets pretty hard. Phys Def Glowking with Ice Beam can snipe Gliscor fairly safely as well, and Darkrai of course has that option as well. Gliscor also can't handle already boosted threats as easily, and without knock off it actually gives free turns to Balloon Gholdengo. it's important to identify what will give opposing Gliscor chances to come in so you can plan around these instances and sometimes, abuse them. Heck even Garg is annoying for non knock Gliscor since SR+Salt Cure means it's not geting any health back and boosting Garg can just beat Gliscor.

I totally get when a mon is frustrating though. No need to feel bad about a bias. I have my own. We all do! And debate like this is a lot more healthy and productive. So thanks for adding your input.
 
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