I wonder how the guy who first uttered Midrai is feeling right now. Probably suffering from some Bad Dreams.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Gouging Fire is banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I'm gonna post my 5 if I get there but mainly there's one:
I do believe that the tier would improve massively if we re-allowed Magearna, I won't go into detail bc we discussed it last week or the other and I get why it wouldn't be balanced, but hey I'm willing to jump on the ban stored power bandwagon if it reallows Magearna in the tier.
I'd be interested in seeing Arch or Hogerpon again. Annihilape or Zama-C would also be interesting to retest. Bundle is a pipe dream but it'd be a cool addition if it didnt have them stats
Also I'm not really behind a Palafin retest as I'd think it'd schew the meta too much (very limited lead metaplay to deny Palafin) but Lily knows her shit so I'm behind her
I mean no disrespect but dropping Ubers isn't serious. There isn't a Palafin "movement" and anyone who wants Volc unbanned doesn't understand the meta.
Thanks to Tera, any Uber that might barely fit into OU is pushed out by the mechanic. For example, Lugia might have been able to be OU, it has poor MU with a lot of good mons in the tier, no Taunt or Encore, and would be forced to run HDB. Tera fixes it's poor MUs and gives it coverage and defensive utility the mon quite literally was never designed to have.
There are a handful of mons that might be able to drop but we would need some prerequisites met beforehand.
Tera Blast would need to be banned to drop Leki, for example. A Stored Power ban might give us Mage and Espa. Rage First ban and Ape might be fine. Volc will still be too much even with TB ban. Spectrier has trash coverage so a TB ban might make it okay but I doubt it.
Either way, as things are now with no banned moves and Tera, literally no Uber has any business in SV OU. Lily is great, and even had me convinced for a few mins lol, but Fin is the last thing this meta needs right now.
Palafin-Hero is just a better Dracovish... reminder that Dondozo is our premier physical wall and a Water resist.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 247-291 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tera Water Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 232-274 (46 - 54.3%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
Last Gen it certainly was trash and I think that Ban was a mistake. This Gen however it has:
-Mud Shot (this also was available last Gen)
-Psychic (this is the first new move, the least revelant)
-And most importantly Draining Kiss.
So, even with Tera Blast banned, this guy just uses Nasty Plot, kills something with Shadow Ball (getting +3) and then kills your Gambit while healing with Tera Fairy Draining Kiss (btw, not everyone knows this yet, but as the Tera type is Fairy, Draining Kiss power goes up from 50 to 60 before STAB).
I doubt Spectrier has a place even in a No Tera meta with Draining Kiss in its arsenal (Arceus Bug in a No Tera Meta for example would be fine in my opinion, just to compare another bad Uber with Spectrier). In Tera one its a hard no, its too fast, too strong and with a snowballing ability.
I'm personally on board with a Palafin suspect, concerns over it's power in rain are fairly overblown. You're getting what is essentially Gouging Fire in Sun type of power but requires a momentum sink to pull off. I really think people are underestimating just how much investment getting Palafin in + setting rain up is on a Hyper Offensive style, you're investing 2 turns just to get Palafin set up while your opponent does whatever they want.
I definitely think the meta has evolved and given us a ton of new counterplay, Rillaboom, Ogerpon-W, Walking Wake, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta, Dragapult are all extremely viable options that all match up extremely well into Palafin.
The counterplay is there, I think this Mon warrants a retest
I definitely think the meta has evolved and given us a ton of new counterplay, Rillaboom, Ogerpon-W, Walking Wake, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta, Dragapult are all extremely viable options that all match up extremely well into Palafin.
The counterplay is there, I think this Mon warrants a retest
If you add Blizzard to Kyurem, it can even hit harder, but it requires snow support:
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 270-318 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 360-424 (105.2 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
.
In other hand, Waterpon's Cudgel when teralized in Rain is quite dangerous:
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 372-438 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I wouldn’t call Top Players like CTC or Vert as people that don’t understand the meta. There is defiantly a part of the tournament player base that do believe the Volc ban was a mistake, and in fact do want to retest Palafin. They also don’t want to continue this banning treadmill that be currently are on, and would rather look at unbanning/banning Signature Moves to free certain Pokemon.
Rain was up in those calcs to show its max potential, it's not needed to blow things up.
T-Water Band Wave Crash is a OHKO on Pult. Band CC after SR is a OHKO on Rilla, Wake- no SR needed for a OHKO on Ogerpon-W. Bolt takes up to 75% and OHKO if Tera Fighting. Zama a 2HKO w Band WC at +1 defense. After a BU you're at CB levels of power, with the option to Tera, and a 60BP +1 STAB. Zen Headbutt blows away Pex. Ice Punch smashes Nite. Taunt easily handles Dozo. Let's not forget Drain Punch. I could go on.
It's this lack of foresight that has caused us a ton of problems for over a year now.
Uh.. no comment on that first line lol
I believe there is an underlying feeling that the meta needs to be shaken up and I agree with that sentiment, but disagree on wildly misguided opinions that unbanning Ubers is the answer.
This ban treadmill was described in detail during the literal first few months of SV by certain players, myself included. When you have a mechanic that essentially acts like a mega-evolution then a lot of top tier mons will need to be banned. You can find posts from myself that essentially say, "If we keep Tera, we'll need to ban a lot of mons. Do we want more mons or is the gimmick more important?" The playerbase wanted less mons when playing mons.
The Tera debate is long dead, but at one point there was a lot conversation that Tera hasn't actually pushed out that many mons; that mons like Flutter and Pao were already busted and that's true. You don't hear that rhetoric anymore after Bax, Sneasler, Volc, and w/e else is next.
More mons most likely need to go. The only tricky part is finding out what mons are on the borderline. Again, I said over a year ago that Tera will make certain mons broken sometimes. Zama is a great mon and somewhat honest, unless Tera Fire/Steel. We're at a point where these borderline mons are basically identified, but since they aren't always broken it's really hard to figure out what to ban. It's a puzzle to figure out what to do with this meta. It didn't have to be this difficult but that's how it went down and here we are. Anyone who is serious about trying to fix this meta is more concerned with what other mons need to be banned, since that's the only logical route we've boxed ourselves into. Increasing the power level is not the answer. The ban treadmill is already turned on and running and it will continue to run for the rest of SV.
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all right, here are my 5:
- archaludon
- urshifu-rapid-strike
- just kidding
- none of them
- you don't put out a fire with gasoline
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I fully disagree but I see skynet hasn't taken you over permanently
Glad to have you back as a human
Man you're right, maybe there isn't enough counterplay to Tera Water Banded Tera Fighting Wave Crash, Close Combat, Bulk Up, Jet Punch, Taunt, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Drain Punch, Flip Turn Palafin in rain.
Paladin does not have nearly enough freedom of moveslots as you're implying here, the Tera factor is applicable to pretty much any Pokemon in the game.
You're also assuming Adamant, which is a large opportunity cost when Jolly would be able to outspeed the likes of Kyurem, Gouging Fire and Great Tusk.
Palafin was not primarily banned for the Band set while it was in the meta, but the Taunt+Bulk Up set, which has gained a ton of counterplay. Additionally, an unban of Paladin does not reinforce the strongest playstyle in HO, but gives a solid counterplay option to both it and stall, which would ultimately improve meta diversity.
palafin has some properties and matchups that look healthy on paper, but in practice it's going to end up doing stupid shit and enabling even stupider shit. to continue the metaphor from my last post, this is like saying "gasoline is a liquid, just like water, therefore i should pour it on this fire and that will improve things"
You're assuming there's a fire in the first place, which is in itself up for debate.
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You can't just say that it looks like it's healthy on paper, but in practice it doesn't. We've seen what Palafin does in practice, what's it was banned for would not be good in the current meta.
That's ultimately what the point of an unban suspect would for, to actually see it in practice, then make a decision based off of that.
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Due to Urshifu learning Swords Dance in Gen 9, plus the water teralization made it a wallbreaker, like Corviknight can't even tank a Choice Band Tera Water Surging Strikes in rain even at max Defense, neither Skarmory as well.
Shell Armor Hisuian Goodra can stop Surging Strikes crits, but it gets clapped by Close Combat, even if H-Goodra teralizes into Ghost to get the Close Combat immunity, it will be still 2HKOed by Surging Strikes (Useless if it manages to get at least one Shelter, and yes this is max HP and Defense).
Tera Ghost Clodsire with Water Absorb makes it fully immune to Rapid Strike Urshifu STAB moves, useless if it decides to go for the rare Big Nugget Fling, which it deals 65.9 - 78% to a physically defensive Tera Ghost Clod, otherwise it will just switch out to a teammate that can deal with it. Also if Rapid strike Urshifu has Tera Ghost and Tera Blast in its Choice Band set, it has 50% Chance to OHKO a Tera Ghost Clodsire, if isn't physically defensive, it OHKOes it.
Shell Armor Hisuian Goodra can stop Surging Strikes crits, but it gets clapped by Close Combat, even if H-Goodra teralizes into Ghost to get the Close Combat immunity, it will be still 2HKOed by Surging Strikes (Useless if it manages to get at least one Shelter, and yes this is max HP and Defense).
Tera Ghost Clodsire with Water Absorb makes it fully immune to Rapid Strike Urshifu STAB moves, useless if it decides to go for the rare Big Nugget Fling, which it deals 65.9 - 78% to a physically defensive Tera Ghost Clod, otherwise it will just switch out to a teammate that can deal with it. Also if Rapid strike Urshifu has Tera Ghost and Tera Blast in its Choice Band set, it has 50% Chance to OHKO a Tera Ghost Clodsire, if isn't physically defensive, it OHKOes it.
you shouldn't pour gasoline over a house that isn't obviously on fire either. sure, there's a miniscule chance that it might solve some sort of bizarre problem, but a much higher chance that it will end up causing problems
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If there isn't a fire then why are you wanting to drop Fin? If the meta is in a great state then why advocate for dropping a 650BST, 160 Attack mon with great speed and bulk and a toolkit to pick and choose its counters? Doesn't that imply you think the meta could be better?
I'm not gonna touch your last response for obvious reasons, and I don't want to argue with people for their subjective opinions. That said, don't pretend that a significant portion of players feel like this meta could improve. Almost everyone has a mon or two (or more) they would like to see banned (or unbanned lol) or moves/items tested/banned, etc.
I'm in a minority when I say I'm relatively fine with the meta as is. I do care about actively making the meta worse, which is what dropping Fin or any other Uber would do.
OU not being on fire =/ OU is perfect and nothing about it should change
I personally don't believe that OU is in an absolute state of disrepair and can only be fixed with bans.
This is by far one of the most stable metas we've had in the past 2 years, which opens up the opportunity to test the waters.
I do think the path forward towards improvement is uncertain, but I do think it is close minded to only look at Darkrai, Ogerpon-W or Kyurem suspects.
It is pretty well-known that Gen 9 was marked by absurd power creep, which of course led to those bans. And those bans are in good part what has led us to this meta that, finally, has a semblance of stability. Some of those bans aren't even entirely removal from the tier as much as they are sending unbans back to Ubers.
I just cannot conceptualize in my monkey brain how reintroducing mons that have been historically problematic and often quickbanned will help a meta that has been messy for a while to actually get things in order. It just does not add up.
I just cannot conceptualize in my monkey brain how reintroducing mons that have been historically problematic and often quickbanned will help a meta that has been messy for a while to actually get things in order. It just does not add up.
I respect your open-minded philosophy but we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest. There are major shifts in team-building atm. The moment the meta adapts to a certain threat it feels like another mon gets a resurgence and becomes the new threat, ad nauseum. I don't think we'll ever have stability like we're used to seeing with past gens. I will say this is the most stable it's been in awhile, but that's a low bar if we're being honest.
You're in the majority that feels like "something should change" and there will of course be different perspectives on what that "something" should be. Dropping an Uber like Fin feels like desperation to me, with all due respect. As far as novel approaches to that "something" I could see a BE suspect or TB suspect being fun. Both would take down the power level of the meta, which to me seems like the obvious approach.
While I am answering your question in good faith, I have to preface this by saying I don't think any of the 5 I listed would improve the meta.
1. Lugia (terrible typing. Tera hog. Hits like a wet noodle. Easily beaten by fat balance/stall. Adds a match-up fishy mon to the tier)
2. Solgaleo (Okay defensive typing, but its set variety would be broken as it's too difficult to cover for Choice Band, mixed attacker, CM special attacking, and Pivot Teleport sets)
3. Zamazenta-Crowned (handled easily by fat balance/stall. Would be a nightmare for offense with its ridiculous stats + Tera)
4. Regieleki (was tested pre-nerf Transistor. Deserves a test on principle since what we faced wasn't the real Regieleki)
5. Ogerpon-Hearthflame (walled by defensive Gouging Fire. There's 1 new check, so you could kind of justify testing it even though it'd be insane against fat in general.
I am really against dropping Giratina-Altered, and that's why I didn't list it. Its just slightly less bulky than Ting-Lu on both sides, but this thing can spread burns and really be a nightmare to play against.
For reference:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 126-148 (25 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 136-162 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Good luck spinning against this monstrosity. It would massively centralize the meta. Sure, it's a defogger that threatens Gholdengo, but the downside to having it in the tier would be too great.
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i do think that eleki argument has some merit behind it since we never did have actual regieleki in the tier, we had a way stronger version of it. unfortunately, there's a massive obstacle in the way of testing regieleki and its name is flutter mane. flutter mane is in a similar situation—it was banned before we figured out that protosynthesis was only a 1.5x boost to speed and 1.3x to everything else, so technically we never faced the actual flutter mane either. if we test eleki without testing flutter mane, we'd be arbitrarily picking and choosing what to give a fair chance to, as nonsensical as that sounds. even though every rational person here knows that flutter mane is very much not worth giving a fair chance to because it's still one of the dumbest fucking things ever designed and even going near the idea of testing it would be a waste of time, some might say the same about regieleki with ice coverage. so as much as i'd like to have some sort of test on eleki to give it a fair shake, it simply can't be done without either being obviously biased or testing the least testworthy thing in history. now, i'm personally fine with being arbitrary in a case like this, i think it makes perfect sense to be biased against flutter mane of all things, but i don't think it really gels well with policy, and since there's a very real risk of eleki just ending up broken anyway i don't think the test would be worth having to deal with this dilemma
…Maybe because we’re reaching a state of stability that gives us a platform to re-evaluate certain Ubers? If Ubers can’t be re-tested when the meta is unstable because there are more important priorities and it risks making the current issues worse, but they also can’t be tested when the metagame is stable because it risks pushing it towards unstable territory, when CAN we retest them?
Darkrai is controversial at the moment but is still here, has been here since it has dropped, and hasn’t even reached enough support to be sure we’re even going to suspect the damn thing. Zam-H has even less support than Darkrai. Kyurem, as much as I personally think it should get banned again, did not get the support to warrant a ban in its suspect and still struggles to find that support. Deoxys-S hasn’t been controversial since like week 1 of its drop, and Deo-D isn’t even OU. Staring that almost every Uber drop has been a “fucking disaster” is revisionist history at best and outright disingenuous at worst. We should always be open to considering unbans.
"not banned" and "fucking disaster" are not mutually exclusive. darkrai shouldn't be here. kyurem shouldn't be here. roaring moon shouldn't be here. some might argue that gliscor and zamazenta shouldn't be here. the only unequivocally not-bullshit mons that have dropped from ubers this entire gen are cinderace and the two deoxyses (deoxes?) and this is from a sample size of something like a dozen at this point. there is absolutely no need to grow that sample size any further, especially when it's constantly and consistently been distracting from actual productive discussion the whole gen. if we can't change the policy, can we at least make a separate thread for ubers and theorymonning? this is supposed to be a thread for ou metagame discussion. as in, discussion of the metagame and the pokemon that are actually in it
also, please don't falsely accuse people of revisionism while simultaneously saying controversy about deo-s died down after a week. it took at least a month
FUCKING NEVER.
if it's a bad idea half the time for one reason and a bad idea the other half of the time for a different reason, then it's just a bad idea the whole time. you're talking like it's something that's necessary or desirable in any way for the meta when that couldn't be more wrong. i don't know why this is so difficult for people to grasp. (well, i have some theories)
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I'm just going to say we'd do more good with 'fixing' the tier by removing some select things vs dropping down more nukes. I didn't play while Palafin was around, but a lot of the talk and replays I've seen don't inspire a lot of confidence in its ability to do anything than be "multi set sweeper that can set up or click one big button #7". At that point I'd rather fucking bring Groudon down since at least its a cool dinosaur