Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Gouging Fire is banned]

[Baloor]

skipping all my numbers for everything else but just wanted to mention something I wrote in write in section.

- while not as outright powerful as and or controversial in terms of trolling games like and , I find meows to be one of the most restrictive pokemon in the tier team building wise and is really frustrating to account for if you are not running skarm or corv. I really think we need to monitor this a pokemon a ton. I find not over prepping for meows without being overly tera reliant really hard if you stray away from the common skarm ting/glisc balance core. again meows is not powerhouse like previous pokemon i mentioned but is a big factor of why building stuff that is not skarm cores or offense is pretty miserable and tossing it would only open up more diversity in the builder. I would seriously rank meows a four, which would be above 2/3s of my list and im sort of surprised its not in the survey. It's strong vs offense, Its strong vs BO, its strong vs balance (even with skarm bc of knock) and really forces bulky teams into a particular structure which is the making of a unhealthy mon that does not promote diversity.

and yes i know skarm balance is one of the better playstyles in the tier anyway and its not solely because of meows but meows is def a factor of this equation that locks us into the skarm glisc/ting nightmare.

 

[Heatranator]

I see so many people giving this meta high fun scores and saying that this meta is "the best this generation" that I am genuinely baffled. Are we playing the same meta? Have I just not figured out what's the most fun to use? To that end, I'm asking all of you to post some teams you've had the most fun with so far. I really want to enjoy this meta, especially since most of our current batch isn't going anywhere based on those survey scores.

https://pokepast.es/937effd607457006
Iron Crown and Araquanid team. Yeah, I used araquanid, and it was good. Fight me

https://pokepast.es/2ae4b925d5bcc70b
I think quaquaval is great with upper hand. It stops the two most common priority moves, grassy glide and thunderclap, from affecting it.

These sets should be subpar, but are decent in this meta. There may be a really high power level and lots of potentially broken threats, but you can run almost anything viably. That is why it is the best, the amount of variety is amazing. Also, nothing is so broken it needs a quickban. Even something like roaring moon is not so bad it needs to be banned instantly, it can be banned soon though. It's bad, but not egregiously bad.

 

[MilkyWay]

Overall I like the meta nothing seems too broken yet. I do think part of this is because we haven’t had quite enough time for everything to stabilize since DLC-2.

To keep it short: 1) I’m not a fan of koko tiering for reasons other have said many times, 2) I don’t think Kyurem is broken just yet, but I don’t see it sticking in the tier long because it’s way too hard to consistently switch into, and 3) Ik it’s not practical, but I really wish bax was initially dropped because it breaks up dumb Ting Lu cores and doesn’t immediately win after a DD (looking at you roaring moon) cuz plenty of booster energy users out speed it at +1. Don’t have time to elaborate on bax anymore but a few users made some good posts on what it adds to the meta game a while ago that I agree with.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

2) I don’t think Kyurem is broken just yet, but I don’t see it sticking in the tier long because it’s way too hard to consistently switch into, and 3) Ik it’s not practical, but I really wish bax was initially dropped

…wait what

 

[cyrtie]

This is a bit out of the blue and not fully relevant to OU but it does concern a mon that was in the tier and probably will be in future gens and that is Terapagos. Why is it so bad? Like compared to what it’s supposed counterparts are in Koraidon and Miraidon it’s like a PU pokemon. Like having its effective base form be 600 bst is appaling for a supposed ”box art” legendary and I had no expectations for it to even be somewhat considered for OU but here we are. Sure it has a form with 700bst but it needs tera to get it, which means this form will be only in SV most likely. It is essentially an Ultra Necrozma if its base form was base Necrozma. Now I know this may sound very petty but it is just odd that the same gen we got scale shot koraidon we get another apparent boxart that is complete dogwater in comparison, like make up your mind GF!! TLDR I at least hope the turtle gets a solid place in future OU tiers provided they dont do a big stat buff or give it recover, and I doubt the council will do a complex ban to disallow it to tera, but if tera got banned it’d be back but that’s hypothetical so ill move on. If you read this Dream tweet/Tolkien novel, you’re the goat! Also if you wish to discuss this more we either make it quick in here or move to ubers discussion/discord either way, cheers.

 

[Return to Zero]

I see so many people giving this meta high fun scores and saying that this meta is "the best this generation" that I am genuinely baffled. Are we playing the same meta? Have I just not figured out what's the most fun to use? To that end, I'm asking all of you to post some teams you've had the most fun with so far. I really want to enjoy this meta, especially since most of our current batch isn't going anywhere based on those survey scores.

Part of it might be that DLC 1's meta was easily the worst of Gen 9, but I genuinely really like where OU is at right now. It feels like there's multiple viable team styles and all of them have different options they can run. Defense as a whole got a lot better and balance teams are now really good for once.

My favorite teams to try out so far have been weather teams, like this sun team that singlehandedly made me bump up my score for Raging Bolt in the survey, or this rain team I made and stole someone's Volcarona idea for. Weather's awesome right now. If this meta isn't clicking for you, try a weather team.

 

[Avira]

This is a bit out of the blue and not fully relevant to OU but it does concern a mon that was in the tier and probably will be in future gens and that is Terapagos. Why is it so bad? Like compared to what it’s supposed counterparts are in Koraidon and Miraidon it’s like a PU pokemon. Like having its effective base form be 600 bst is appaling for a supposed ”box art” legendary and I had no expectations for it to even be somewhat considered for OU but here we are. Sure it has a form with 700bst but it needs tera to get it, which means this form will be only in SV most likely. It is essentially an Ultra Necrozma if its base form was base Necrozma. Now I know this may sound very petty but it is just odd that the same gen we got scale shot koraidon we get another apparent boxart that is complete dogwater in comparison, like make up your mind GF!! TLDR I at least hope the turtle gets a solid place in future OU tiers provided they dont do a big stat buff or give it recover, and I doubt the council will do a complex ban to disallow it to tera, but if tera got banned it’d be back but that’s hypothetical so ill move on. If you read this Dream tweet/Tolkien novel, you’re the goat! Also if you wish to discuss this more we either make it quick in here or move to ubers discussion/discord either way, cheers.

I'm not sorry to say this, but disallowing the Tera button for Terapagos only breaks established precedent in OU's tiering history. Z-Moves were a universal mechanic, and the mechanic was tiered appropriately with Blaziken being banned 'cause of Z-moves (although to be fair, it wasn't actually tested in OU but was clearly broken anyway) instead of denying Blaziken the ability to use Z-Moves. Dynamax was banned in its entirety instead of banning individual abusers since again it was a universal mechanic, so it makes no sense to treat Terapagos differently as we are 100% not making a Tera List of what Pokemon can and cannot Terastalize. And for the record, Terapagos would be a low-tier mon if it couldn't Terastalize, so no, it wouldn't even have a place in future editions of OU.

 

[cyrtie]

I'm not sorry to say this, but disallowing the Tera button for Terapagos only breaks established precedent in OU's tiering history. Z-Moves were a universal mechanic, and the mechanic was tiered appropriately with Blaziken being banned 'cause of Z-moves (although to be fair, it wasn't actually tested in OU but was clearly broken anyway) instead of denying Blaziken the ability to use Z-Moves. Dynamax was banned in its entirety instead of banning individual abusers since again it was a universal mechanic, so it makes no sense to treat Terapagos differently as we are 100% not making a Tera List of what Pokemon can and cannot Terastalize. And for the record, Terapagos would be a low-tier mon if it couldn't Terastalize, so no, it wouldn't even have a place in OU.

You are acting as if i suggested the complex ban which I do not, either way that was more just a side note, so it would not even be OU then?

 

[Avira]

You are acting as if i suggested the complex ban which I do not, either way that was more just a side note, so it would not even be OU then?

Yeah, I see Terapagos being a UU or RU mon in the future if it returns. Unless only the baby form is playable, and in that case, it'd be actually ZU.

 

[tommytt22]

hi everyone. Unfotunately you cant see it in screenshot but i found this interaction interesting and i wanted to see if it was known or not? Showdown Halves the damage of a move when you are burnt. in turn 9 of this battle, I tera ground with excadrill and get burnt by flare blitz. Usually earthquake would be 50bp but its raised to 60 with tera. does cartridge work this way or is this a quirk of showdowns damage multiplier with burns. thanks

 

[Dive Missile]

I'm not sorry to say this, but disallowing the Tera button for Terapagos only breaks established precedent in OU's tiering history. Z-Moves were a universal mechanic, and the mechanic was tiered appropriately with Blaziken being banned 'cause of Z-moves (although to be fair, it wasn't actually tested in OU but was clearly broken anyway) instead of denying Blaziken the ability to use Z-Moves. Dynamax was banned in its entirety instead of banning individual abusers since again it was a universal mechanic, so it makes no sense to treat Terapagos differently as we are 100% not making a Tera List of what Pokemon can and cannot Terastalize. And for the record, Terapagos would be a low-tier mon if it couldn't Terastalize, so no, it wouldn't even have a place in future editions of OU.

ik this is a tired discussion but acting like restricting terapagos from tera'ing is the same as banning blaziken from using z moves is so disingenuous. terapagos literally becomes a new mon with different stats and ability, it's not the same as saying eleki can't tera. not even trying to say that we need to make a terapagos clause, i just think this argument sucks

 

[Heatranator]

hi everyone. Unfotunately you cant see it in screenshot but i found this interaction interesting and i wanted to see if it was known or not? Showdown Halves the damage of a move when you are burnt. in turn 9 of this battle, I tera ground with excadrill and get burnt by flare blitz. Usually earthquake would be 50bp but its raised to 60 with tera. does cartridge work this way or is this a quirk of showdowns damage multiplier with burns. thanksView attachment 584955

I know that with tera, any move that is below 60 bp is raised to 60. I.e. if you tera flying and use peck, peck will be raised to 60 bp, but quick attack won't unless you tera normal. It's most likely an error for the burn damage reduction, but it is interesting as it means that if you use a 60 bp move, are burned, then tera into that move type, you basically have the same bp.

 

[TPP]

hi everyone. Unfotunately you cant see it in screenshot but i found this interaction interesting and i wanted to see if it was known or not? Showdown Halves the damage of a move when you are burnt. in turn 9 of this battle, I tera ground with excadrill and get burnt by flare blitz. Usually earthquake would be 50bp but its raised to 60 with tera. does cartridge work this way or is this a quirk of showdowns damage multiplier with burns. thanksView attachment 584955

You can go ahead and post in either the SV Mechanics Research thread, or the Bug Reports thread. Good luck

 

[Alfa Lags]

skipping all my numbers for everything else but just wanted to mention something I wrote in write in section.

- while not as outright powerful as and or controversial in terms of trolling games like and , I find meows to be one of the most restrictive pokemon in the tier team building wise and is really frustrating to account for if you are not running skarm or corv. I really think we need to monitor this a pokemon a ton. I find not over prepping for meows without being overly tera reliant really hard if you stray away from the common skarm ting/glisc balance core. again meows is not powerhouse like previous pokemon i mentioned but is a big factor of why building stuff that is not skarm cores or offense is pretty miserable and tossing it would only open up more diversity in the builder. I would seriously rank meows a four, which would be above 2/3s of my list and im sort of surprised its not in the survey. It's strong vs offense, Its strong vs BO, its strong vs balance (even with skarm bc of knock) and really forces bulky teams into a particular structure which is the making of a unhealthy mon that does not promote diversity.

and yes i know skarm balance is one of the better playstyles in the tier anyway and its not solely because of meows but meows is def a factor of this equation that locks us into the skarm glisc/ting nightmare.

Considering Meow is my favorite mon to come out this gen, even I have to agree that, yeah, Meow is terrifying in the builder, doing a similar thing to Greninja in gens past. Definitely flying under rn due to all the high power and flashy stuff running around. Weavile does a similar thing but has a worse defensive typing and struggles against bulky waters, so Meow is easily the superior option, not to mention the variety in items it can run that can change what counterplay you need against it. HDB is the standard because this is Gen 9, but Protective Pads are also really annoying if you rely on helmet/flame body/static to punish meow.

 

[pika pal]

I see so many people giving this meta high fun scores and saying that this meta is "the best this generation" that I am genuinely baffled. Are we playing the same meta? Have I just not figured out what's the most fun to use? To that end, I'm asking all of you to post some teams you've had the most fun with so far. I really want to enjoy this meta, especially since most of our current batch isn't going anywhere based on those survey scores.

Have you considered that a rise in Roaring Moon, Meowscarada, and Weavile is Lokix time?

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 270-318 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Poison Weavile: 290-342 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lokix: 216-256 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[FayaWizard]

Have you considered that a rise in Roaring Moon, Meowscarada, and Weavile is Lokix time?

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 270-318 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Poison Weavile: 290-342 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lokix: 216-256 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It still runs into the same problems

Any chip means it falls into ko range, can't switch in, very weak to hazards and without a band set it can't pull nearly as much weight. Gliscor also switches in for free against first impression.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Btw you people who want to ban Deoxys Speed, if we had to live through a year of the moronic no skill teapot on psyspam then surely there is nothing wrong at all with Deoxys being in the tier

 

[Heatranator]

Btw you people who want to ban Deoxys Speed, if we had to live through a year of the moronic no skill teapot on psyspam then surely there is nothing wrong at all with Deoxys being in the tier

Ah yes, the mon that can outspeed everything, can get up at least one layer of hazards uncontested or be a potent late game cleaner is the same as a mon which is restricted to one teamstyle which has to use indeedee and can be very weak to any multi hit moves and looses its priority immunity if ice spinner is used or is destroyed if a mon tera's unexpectedly.

I hate polteageist, but they are not anywhere close to the same power level, there is a reason why the teacup is RUBL. It is not the best.
I'm guessing you lost to a poltegeist?

 

[heileone]

Ah yes, the mon that can outspeed everything, can get up at least one layer of hazards uncontested or be a potent late game cleaner is the same as a mon which is restricted to one teamstyle which has to use indeedee and can be very weak to any multi hit moves and looses its priority immunity if ice spinner is used or is destroyed if a mon tera's unexpectedly.

I hate polteageist, but they are not anywhere close to the same power level, there is a reason why the teacup is RUBL. It is not the best.
I'm guessing you lost to a poltegeist?

Deoxys speed is also a bad pokemon when it isnt on terrain. Its not a better late game sweeper compared to mons like boulder and valiant and it isnt a better hazard setter for offensive teams than glimm or hamurott. Its ok with specs on terrain but aside from that its whatever. Unless you make a team of only frail slow mons it can ohko lol.

 

[Return to Zero]

Btw you people who want to ban Deoxys Speed, if we had to live through a year of the moronic no skill teapot on psyspam then surely there is nothing wrong at all with Deoxys being in the tier

Let's put aside that Polteageist and Deoxys-Speed have nothing in common. Polteageist is literally not in the tier. It's RUBL. How the fuck are we supposed to ban it from OU when it's not even in UU?

 

[Divine Retribution]

Let's put aside that Polteageist and Deoxys-Speed have nothing in common. Polteageist is literally not in the tier. It's RUBL. How the fuck are we supposed to ban it from OU when it's not even in UU?

I mean technically there's nothing saying that something has to be OU by usage to be suspected or quickbanned from OU, but it's not realistic that a Pokemon would ever be problematic enough to be suspected/banned but not used enough to remain in OU.

Also are people really out here tilting to Polteageist psyspam enough to compare it to Deoxys-Speed?

 

[Ctann]

If Meowscarada had protean work in a similar way to Libero, where grass and dark attacks don’t trigger protean, then it would probably be a top pokemon.

being able to knock off the switch in, and retain STAB of flower trick, triple axel, u turn or low kick is a pretty big deal.

-


I’m surprised people haven’t been voting Roaring Moon too high. It seems very OP. Generally the meta power level is quite high tho, so maybe it’s threat level is being masked with people’s attention all over the place.


kingambit also continues to be a stain on OU despite being more “manageable”, let’s see how long before the meta settles a bit and it gets back to its usual dominance. This has caused the most mental gymnastics ever for people to justify it staying OU.


loving the new dragon additions, they’re surprisingly adding a lot of value. It’s a shame that Apple boi got the short end of the stick. What is it with GF and giving the grass/dragon type such horrible stat and movepool distributions compared to the other dragons! We basically have a slightly better alolan exeggutor. Critically it’s missing flamethrower. Fickle beam is a major letdown for an exclusive. It’s equivalent to a 102 power move if you average it out over many attacks, doesn’t seem worth using much to me, since you can’t really fish for the 30% proc too easily with 8 PP. if it was 30% chance to double and 10% to triple then it would at least be a more fun gambling move.

-

really fun, can be utility or hard hitting tank. It has a great move for rain teams and loves grassy terrain. Also has potential to bust through teams with its colorful movepool and phasing to try and force out untimely booster energies and give it some healing potential (a dragon tail in grassy terrain often means 25% healing at a minimum if the dragon tail is favourable).

 

[JunkoAJ]

Forgot to type in here before submitting so I'm doing my best to remember my scores lmao

Enjoyment: 8
Balance: 7

SV OU is the best it's ever been, I think everyone agrees, if you don't ur just wrong

3, strong, has varied sets, potentially can be problematic due to overwhelming options on the builder
3, Baxcalibur but can be specs nuke which is very strong, definitely need to be wary of it
2, nah mon is fine, struggles with it's 4th moveslot as it need to run Psychic/Giga Drain/Bug Buzz on offensive sets or Giga Drain/Morning Sun/Tera Blast on defensive sets
3, doing the same things as before to less effectiveness not an immediate issue
4, very very strong, can run a bulky set, fully offensive, booster, deceptively hard to KO due to its bulk
4, fucking silly mon lmfao doing the exact same shit where it left off in USUM and is still just as annoying to deal with
2, good mon, bulky, slow, can't rly complain
3, rly good despite its dogshit typing, hard to stop w/o priority but is very weak to such if you have it
4, also fucking dumb good speed, dummy strong, great with Tera Stellar
4, as much as I now almost completely understand the point people have made with it not necessarily being the sole reason the hazard problem we have, it's still the main component of it and I would like it removed pls
4, probably the worst it's been but still needs to go

If Meowscarada had protean work in a similar way to Libero, where grass and dark attacks don’t trigger protean, then it would probably be a top pokemon.

I think Libero only works like that because Cinderace is already monotype and if it had a dual type, it would function the exact same.

It’s a shame that Apple boi got the short end of the stick. What is it with GF and giving the grass/dragon type such horrible stat and movepool distributions compared to the other dragons!

To be fair, it's notably 4x weak to one of the most common coverage types ever

 

[Moyashi]

Deoxys speed is also a bad pokemon when it isnt on terrain. Its not a better late game sweeper compared to mons like boulder and valiant and it isnt a better hazard setter for offensive teams than glimm or hamurott. Its ok with specs on terrain but aside from that its whatever. Unless you make a team of only frail slow mons it can ohko lol.

there are bad takes and then there is this. Oof.

mon is incredibly common and dominant. Terrain has nothing to do with it. And lol its far far better than glimmora.

 

[Eeveeto]

Deo-S: 5
Volcarona: 5
Roaring Moon: 5
Gouging Fire: 5
Enamorus: 5
Gholdengo: 5
Iron Boulder: 4
Kingambit: 3 (how does he always have something even more broken than him?)
Raging Bolt: 2
Kyurem: 2
Serperior: 1

Won't elaborate.