Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem banned]

Metagrossite is Banned
There is no Terapagosite to be banned
For megas, all you needed to do was ban the item in question, and thats it
with terapagos, you have to ban the ability for terapagos to click the tera button entirely, which is more complex then just banning an item
Screenshot_20231216-144015.png
This is a team meant for gen 6 ou. It is a gengarite, which megas gengar into the banned mega gengar. The gengarite is not banned. Mega gengar, a battle exclusive form, is. Terapagos stellar is a battle exclusive form, and could be banned just like mega gengar.
 
View attachment 580689This is a team meant for gen 6 ou. It is a gengarite, which megas gengar into the banned mega gengar. The gengarite is not banned. Mega gengar, a battle exclusive form, is. Terapagos stellar is a battle exclusive form, and could be banned just like mega gengar.
Well would you look at that
It is interesting how decisions were made based on the desire of the community (strictly sticking to the survey results), but I wonder if that same standard will be held here. If a large amount of the community want Terapagos' forms tiered separately, will that desire be ignored because of the traditional tiering process?
 
I'm really starting to doubt Darkrai as broken threat. I know the meta is insane right now, but this guy's not impressing me right now. Dark Pulse is truly too weak of a move to take advantage of its STAB, it's always missing key OHKO's even after NP... that or I'm getting insanely low rolls. Anyone else feel like this guy's not that good?

I agree wholeheartedly - Darkrai's got some issues, he's a great offensive mon but comes up short in a lot of situations and is very setup reliant (and even with setup still falls short in a lot of areas). 4MSS sucks, and his 70/90/90 bulk feels like wet paper right now.
 
Remember the Arceus-Steel/Flying incident?
Since the new mons don't have images, you can rename them to another new pokemon and trick your opponents
https://pokepast.es/7c93d093a71dbcc5 a team with 6 renamed mons; even when your opponent finds out you switched their names, they will still sometimes switch in the wrong pokemon because they forgor
Why give Iron Boulder Booster Energy if you’re gonna name it Archaludon? Kind of obvious if you use Booster Energy on a Pokemon without booster energy ability.
 
Gonna give my opinion on darkrai after a few games. I think with lifeorb 4 attacks this guy is really strong in the current ho fest meta. It functions as an amazing revenge killer much like boots/lo 4 zama, and a lot of offensive mons can’t take life orb darkrai attacks. It’s usually always good for 1 plus massive chip on something else, which is all that a lot of ho builds need it to do. Once balance comes back though and people start using stuff like tingothy again I think boots nasty plot will become a lot stronger, but atm it doesn’t get really any opportunities to set up on account of all the offensive threats and it’s frailty
 
To me, there are a few cool Pokemon to talk about.

Terapagos: it has a power level that's too consistently strong for something of its bulk and movepool to remain in the tier. It sweeps a higher portion of games than anything else we see due to this. I expect it to be voted on at some point in the near future.

Deoxys-Speed: PsySpam or just stright NP can be potent, lead sets with hazards or screens are good but not broken. Potential radar and council discussion candidate without a doubt, but I do not see anything besides Terapagos going first.

Volcarona and Roaring Moon: Up to the same tricks as before at similar degrees of efficiency, but both mandate a bit more support team wise due to the higher power level and lack of set-up opportunities. Not too worried yet, but perhaps someday soon.

Raging Bolt: Unreasonable to certain offenses, but it can be prepared for and limited. Still quite strong, but not seen as a major priority to me yet.

Iron Boulder: Arguably broken to some. Very strong in my eyes and I am curious how people adapt offense to stop it given the combination of speed and coverage.

Gouging Fire: My favorite so far. Not broken, but very strong.

Wait for the meta to settle before doing any action. Quick banning it would seems hypocritical without letting some time to cook.
 
Complex ban for Terapagos would be ridiculous, and I'm surprised to see people are even bothering to argue for it.

To keep this pokemon OU legal, we would need to ban its ability to tera. It would be the only mon that is banned from using tera. Terapagos is the legendary mascot of terastallization. It has exclusive abilities and moves built around the tera mechanic. Making the tera pokemon the only pokemon in OU that can't use terastallization would be ironic and silly.

Is it really worthwhile to introduce complex tera bans in order to keep one bulky spinner legal?

Additionally, if this complex ban happens it sets a precedent and opens up a whole new can of worms. The immediate example, which has been brought in this thread, is Ogerpon-Heathstone. If you banned tera on Ogerpon-Hearthstone it would be OU legal. The stat boost from tera is the element that pushes it over the edge into Ubers. If we remove the tera option from Terapagos, why not remove the option from Ogerpon-H and let it be legal? There are other mons that could be OU legal without tera, like Regieleki or Annihilape (or Volc), so why not ban their ability to tera and free them from ubers? Obviously these scenarios aren't all excatly the same, but they follow the same line of logic, and I just don't see why a complex ban here is beneficial to the tier.

This isn't like Urshifu, Deoxys, or Rotom where the forms are locked in and can be tiered seperately. Terapagos is a transforming pokemon, with changing forms, and removing that ability would be altering its core mechanic. Terapagos is Terapagos, plain and simple.

Hopefully this thing gets quickbanned soon and we can stop debating complex bans. OU just got a ton of new threats, some of which will likely require action, which are more worthy of debate than Terapagos.
 
Complex ban for Terapagos would be ridiculous, and I'm surprised to see people are even bothering to argue for it.

This isn't like Urshifu, Deoxys, or Rotom where the forms are locked in and can be tiered seperately. Terapagos is a transforming pokemon, with changing forms, and removing that ability would be altering its core mechanic. Terapagos is Terapagos, plain and simple.
Genuinely curious, how is this more complex than banning a Mega Evolution? As was pointed out earlier on this page, the item Gengarite is not banned on Pokemon Showdown, only Gengar transforming into Mega-Gengar. Therefore, to argue there is no precedent is false.
 
Genuinely curious, how is this more complex than banning a Mega Evolution? As was pointed out earlier on this page, the item Gengarite is not banned on Pokemon Showdown, only Gengar transforming into Mega-Gengar. Therefore, to argue there is no precedent is false.

The difference is that in Gengar's case, it's a teambuilder restriction. This isn't applicable to Terapagos since there are no equivalent restrictions that can be put on it in the teambuilder.
 
Remember the Arceus-Steel/Flying incident?
Since the new mons don't have images, you can rename them to another new pokemon and trick your opponents
https://pokepast.es/7c93d093a71dbcc5 a team with 6 renamed mons; even when your opponent finds out you switched their names, they will still sometimes switch in the wrong pokemon because they forgor
oh that is delectably evil, i love it
>Grr! Too many quickbans!!!! Look at how many have become the quickest quickban in history!!!!
*two minutes later*
>This turtle should have been banned second one, basically a dereliction of duty by the Council!

This meta has existed for less than 24 hours. let them do their work.
funnily enough, i can see merit in both sides of the argument:

on the one hand, yes, it would be prudent to wait until everyone is finished the "slapping 4-6 new mons on a team and going to town" phase of the meta to do any tiering action, since counterplay could crop up in the form of mons nobody is using right now due to new-toy syndrome. it's also important to note that we're not nearly as limited by time as previous metas—pre-home was around six months, post-home was only two and a half, dlc1 was almost exactly three months, but this meta will be around for nearly two years. and it's christmastime, so maybe we should relax and let people live their lives instead of demanding they immediately balance the meta according to the whims of a community that constantly screams at them to do better even though they've been doing better than they ever have before by leaps and bounds.

on the other hand, fucking look at the thing
 
The difference is that in Gengar's case, it's a teambuilder restriction. This isn't applicable to Terapagos since there are no equivalent restrictions that can be put on it in the teambuilder.
Would the same not have been true at the time with regards to how Megas were handled? It is likely I just don't know how exactly Showdown functions, but that seems like a teambuilder restriction which would have not existed before whichever Mega was the first to necessitate it.
 
Would the same not have been true at the time with regards to how Megas were handled? It is likely I just don't know how exactly Showdown functions, but that seems like a teambuilder restriction which would have not existed before whichever Mega was the first to necessitate it.

This is because The Ogerpon forms are Out of Battle Form Changes, meaning you can bring them in as is into Team Preview. In Battle forms are typically a lot harder to tier, because Smogon's ban format aims to have most if not all of it's bans in the teambuilder, and have the least restrictions possible once in the actual battle.

Now there's some popular in battle transformations that have been restricted before, the main one being Mega Evolution, the main approach to banning those are to still give the user the most freedom possible once in battle.

For megas, we had a situation where:

If held item -> In Battle Button -> Broken Pokemon

This was solved by removing the first step, their held item. However in practice this was essentially just a ban of the Pokemon itself, this ban was fairly simple because it had no effect the game once in battle.

Now we're stuck with a situation with Terapagos, where the following is true:

In Battle Button -> Broken Pokemon

There's no way to stop the "Broken Button" from existing, meaning you'd have to either Ban the Pokemon as a whole, or make a Clause, effectively restricting players options once in battle.

TLDR:
Ogerpon-Hearthflame can be brought in immediately, because it's an out of battle form change, while Terapagos-Stellar isn't as easily tierable because it's an In-Battle Form Change, with no applicable teambuilder restrictions.

This kind of explains functionally what the difference is.
 
This is my current SV OU team::grimmsnarl: :ting lu: :skeledirge: :great tusk: :iron valiant: (6th slot currently is Raging Bolt. Will experiment with other options)

I have been playing some SV OU, and by some, I mean 11 games. I kinda reset my win loss record and decided to ladder for a lil bit, see what the meta is like. I went 9-2 in the process only losing to a rain team, and a serperior sweep. By the looks of it, it seems as though my call was correct. But here's what I think about this meta:


#1: :enamorus: :serperior: The Stellar Snakes. The Stellar Tera Contrary duo of Enamorus and Serperior can snowball games way too quickly. These 2 FORCE YOU into using something that outspeeds them, because Tera Stellar Blast is neutral against... well, everything actually. I will adapt and adjust to this, but something tells me that this isn't going to end well for either of them. The speed and power is just... too much to handle effectively.

#2: :deoxys Speed: :gliscor: :deoxys defense: The Lego Kids. Ok jokes aside, we all know the pain of stepping on a Lego piece barefoot (it REALLY hurts if you didn't step on one). And the fact that these guys get Stealth Rock, but more importantly Spikes, means that maneuvering around hazards feel just like that pain. I'm glad I got Taunt to stop it... a little bit anyway. But Deoxys opens up the possibility for Skill Swap to beat Magic Bounce, tera dark to beat Prankster Taunt (which is what I'm using) or Mental Herb. This is mid 1300s ladder however, so there's always the possibility of higher level gameplay being a lot more challenging (not to say it isn't already a challenge even down here). For THE SAKE OF THE TIER and not my personal opinion, we probably need to get rid of Deoxys Speed ASAP. Deoxys Defense and Gliscor are fine, but Deoxys Speed is too tedious to face.

#3: :darkrai: :roaring moon: :volcarona: The Sweepers. Hazards make the threat of these guys extremely scary to face. You have GOT to be able to maneuver around these dudes or else you will lose the game. No one really likes the hazard game, and no one likes any of these extremely threatening sweepers either. Deoxys Speed's departure is one step towards handling this hazard metagame.


Though my team looks bad, it's not actually that bad. Screens with my super bulky team is most likely enough to dish our pretty powerful counter damage to the standardized stuff going around, but this is going to change very fast and very soon. I probably might swap Great Tusk for a Rapid Spin Terapagos (maybe with Rest) and Raging Bolt for something to handle my teams currently bad matchups. No team paste yet -- I wanna make sure I have the skills to match what my team can do before sharing it. But you could pretty easily deduce what I'm using with the given Pokemon. Hopefully I can give my personal future insight on the likes of Terapagos and the sweeper pokes and a better take on Deoxys Speed's effect on the metagame. I'm sticking to my word. I will actually try to play OU competitively this time.
 
Gonna give a big WHO CARES to all the "banning a Mon from Teraing is different this time because the stats change," the council already said what's going to happen, they probably can't even really do anything about it given they're subservient to site admins, and we've had this Mon for less than a day, it's really not like essential that we keep it around. Let's please discuss other new Pokémon instead of hemming and hawing about a relatively unimportant decision that's already been made
 
Gonna give a big WHO CARES to all the "banning a Mon from Teraing is different this time because the stats change," the council already said what's going to happen, they probably can't even really do anything about it given they're subservient to site admins, and we've had this Mon for less than a day, it's really not like essential that we keep it around. Let's please discuss other new Pokémon instead of hemming and hawing about a relatively unimportant decision that's already been made

Should have made Terapagos Ubers first lol. I wonder how they didn't think 160/110/110 bulk with a 120bp omni tera would be legal in ou
 
Genuinely curious, how is this more complex than banning a Mega Evolution? As was pointed out earlier on this page, the item Gengarite is not banned on Pokemon Showdown, only Gengar transforming into Mega-Gengar. Therefore, to argue there is no precedent is false.

This is poor argument to me. Yes, in a previous gen, they implemented Gengar's ability to mega by banning the mega and not the item. However, in effect this didn't make any difference. No other pokemon can use Gengarite, so it doesn't change anything. If you put Gengarite on a Pikachu, you are just wasting the item slot.

Tera, in this case, is not the same. If you ban tera on Terapagos, it is the only pokemon in the game that can't use the mechanic. It would be the single exception out of hundreds of pokemon.

If you ban Gengar's ability to use Gengarite and mega, you still have Gengar, a pokemon that exists in the game. If you ban Terapagos' ability to tera, you now have a new pokemon, the tera-less Terapagos, that does not exist in the game. Typically, the council does not want to create a pokemon that you can't actually have in the video games.

I think a more apt comparison would be if the solution to Mega-Gengar was to ban Gengar from using its item slot at all.
 
I think a more apt comparison would be if the solution to Mega-Gengar was to ban Gengar from using its item slot at all.
see, that comparison doesn't really work either, because gengar can hold other items. the only thing terapagos can do with its tera is change into the form, there's no other option. so it's like banning gengar from using its item slot if it was hard-coded to only be able to hold gengarite
 
This kind of explains functionally what the difference is.
Appreciate the explanation, though I'll agree to disagree while shelving the matter, since, as said, without such weirdly massive support for a bulky spinner that it recreates Volcarona drama, nothing will happen. For me, I'm more interested in the nitty gritty like this and the interpretation of policy when the status quo is challenged. That said, from reading it, it seems like twisting things a few degrees to fit not being called a Clause when it functionally acts as one. This case is basically as admitted, functionally the same as the above, only with the necessity to be called a Clause. By sheer technicality, Sleep Clause is not a cart mechanic, and we (rightfully) did what was needed to be done.

Then one thinks on the matter for about as much time as it takes to write this post, that it probably isn't worth making a Clause that will be received, at best, divisively, to save Teralesspagos, which really doesn't add that terribly much on its own to remedy any of the problems in the tier. I kneel.
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2012742720-qazkwkeial36hq2toxze7ndmdz7azawpw

Worthless 1400elo game but it showcases 2 interesting concepts :
View attachment 580566
Vs :gholdengo:, blocked rapid spin --> temper flare is an OHKO. Might render balloon dengo worthless.
(I encourage all dengo haters to try it out at least once, it's better than therapy)

View attachment 580568
Alluring Voice is absolute bonkers on him. He shuts down fighting types, and Tera fairy completely turns the table around VS dragons types and especially dark types. Even Darkrai has to respect him.

Managed to get top 20 with the same team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2012984041-r7voqouixkyndrrsj9reetr7u6y0h44pw

:primarina: + :skeledirge: + :rillaboom:(Singer squad) is the ultimate anti-cheese combo, case in point in that game.
 
This is poor argument to me. Yes, in a previous gen, they implemented Gengar's ability to mega by banning the mega and not the item. However, in effect this didn't make any difference. No other pokemon can use Gengarite, so it doesn't change anything. If you put Gengarite on a Pikachu, you are just wasting the item slot.

Tera, in this case, is not the same. If you ban tera on Terapagos, it is the only pokemon in the game that can't use the mechanic. It would be the single exception out of hundreds of pokemon.

If you ban Gengar's ability to use Gengarite and mega, you still have Gengar, a pokemon that exists in the game. If you ban Terapagos' ability to tera, you now have a new pokemon, the tera-less Terapagos, that does not exist in the game. Typically, the council does not want to create a pokemon that you can't actually have in the video games.

I think a more apt comparison would be if the solution to Mega-Gengar was to ban Gengar from using its item slot at all.
Personally, I think an even more apt comparison to banning T-Stellar would be how in lower tiers of generations past, some pokemon would be de facto banned due to all of their abilities being banned. Im almost certain it happened with sand veil and/or snow cloak mons, but i wish I could find a proper example so im not talking out of my ass. Nothing says on paper that the mon is banned, but it isnt usable because all of its abilities are banned. The same would be said if only T-stellar was banned, because while it wouldnt ever say that it cannot tera, it would in practice be unable to, just as in practice the banned ability mon wouldnt be able to be used.

This is grasping at straws but ive felt this for a good bit
 
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