Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem banned]

Alternator said:
Then be the change you want to see and start one on Discord. It'll start out challenge-only, and if it gets popular it'll become supported on Showdown.

The only reason such a group doesn't exist is that none of the ban-tera advocates care enough to invest the time and effort to make it happen.
Click to expand...
This isn't true.

Love him or hate him, LosetoRu? did submit a formal application to create a Tera-free OU room on PS a while ago. I don't have the link to the application itself but he mentioned it here. You don't have to agree with the concept, and it got shot down by upper staff, but it's wrong to say that "none of the ban-tera advocates care enough to invest the time and effort to make it happen." I agreed to moderate that room. We did try.

Idt there's any precedent for a challenge-only format becoming popular enough to have a permanent ladder on showdown, it feels disingenuous to suggest this. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Realistically, all that ban-tera advocates can do is get good and wait, please join me one and all.
 
Srn said:
Idt there's any precedent for a challenge-only format becoming popular enough to have a permanent ladder on showdown, it feels disingenuous to suggest this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
didn't uubers start out as challenge-only? and by number of matches played, at one point it was like the fourth most popular tiering-based meta on the site or something

…come to think of it, didn't uubers start on r/stunfisk?
 
Last edited:
arnimacarni said:
No disrespect, but I don't think r/stunfisk is a good metric. For the little I've seen of them, they're a bit of an anti-tera echo chamber and not really that involved with Smogon itself.

Don't want to overstep myself but hey Finchinator can we get a teraless OM question in the next community survey, and if support is shown people can go start a thread in the OM forum and if no support is shown then we can blacklist discussion of it in this thread? because it is getting kind of annoying that every couple weeks we get two pages worth of discussion on whether a Teraless ladder/OM would be good or bad. I know people don't bring it up out of bad faith mostly, but the point has been beaten to death for months now.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly agree, it’s true that r/Stunfisk is not very generalizable to Smogon and as such any results from a Reddit poll will not carry very much weight.

Unfortunately, it is the only thing accessible to a random like me for assessing public opinion.

I agree that a teraless OM poll administered by a mod here would be the best way to go about it. Data never hurts. If support turns out to be low then that’ll shut up the discussion. If it turns out to be high then that’s worth knowing and could foster something in the future. Win win situation.
 
Okay, so I have had three games in a row which have resulted in the opponent not even starting the game and the timer running out. I mean, I'm not complaining since that is free elo, but why? Do people just hate my team?
 
Srn said:
This isn't true.

Love him or hate him, LosetoRu? did submit a formal application to create a Tera-free OU room on PS a while ago. I don't have the link to the application itself but he mentioned it here. You don't have to agree with the concept, and it got shot down by upper staff, but it's wrong to say that "none of the ban-tera advocates care enough to invest the time and effort to make it happen." I agreed to moderate that room. We did try.

Idt there's any precedent for a challenge-only format becoming popular enough to have a permanent ladder on showdown, it feels disingenuous to suggest this. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Realistically, all that ban-tera advocates can do is get good and wait, please join me one and all.
Click to expand...

Adding onto this, there was a discord made for the potential metagame. I, unfortunately, am not an expert shill and only posted the link once in the thread, in total 2 people joined - and in turn nothing has really happened with it since. I’d be willing to try and get things up and running again but ultimately I don’t think there’s enough overlap between forums, showdown, and discord for there to really be much exposure, and the outlets for advertising are rather limited as far as I can tell.

I think there could be enough interest in it for discussion to take place in a showdown room, between people dissatisfied with tera in ou and people who are curious, just not on discord.
 
Heatranator said:
Okay, so I have had three games in a row which have resulted in the opponent not even starting the game and the timer running out. I mean, I'm not complaining since that is free elo, but why? Do people just hate my team?
Click to expand...
maybe your team just makes people really hungry and they need to go eat dinner (or lunch or whatever, i don't know the timezone) before they can even bother to click a move
 
Ok after playing a bunch high ladder I think raging Bolt is broken. Unless you have Lu, Clod or SpD Lando.l, you’re going to lose to it. It can power through Glowking pretty easily. Creates a lot of 50/50s with thunderclap and is way bulkier than it has any right to be. I know everyone is super anti-ban right now but it’s extremely limiting in team builder unless you try to catch by surprise with Tera.
 
The fact of the matter is that there is legitimately an uptick in anti-ban sentiment that arose from people finding out that the Breaking Swipe set is far from broken.

At the time the suspect started, Gouging Fire was a guaranteed ban, but now it looks to be a closer suspect, probably more like Gliscor or Kyurem territory and could possibly go either way although I'd say a ban is more likely.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't believe people are broadly anti-ban, but I do believe there is nothing so obviously a problem that virtually everyone agrees it has to go, like Bloodmoon was, or that has a defining moment of dominance, like Archaludon did in Week 1 SPL. There's just a bunch of strong offensive threats that, in total, are making life very difficult on balance teams, but no one of them is without answers. You can easily make a case for a half-dozen mons to be broken, but you can likewise make a case for any of them to be garden-variety top-tier offensive threats, as well.

Look at Gouging Fire - how many pro-ban voters have said something like, "I faced a bunch of Gouging Fire teams and didn't lose to any of them, but I'm still voting ban because..." and then gone into team building concerns? That's not the description of an obviously broken mon, that's the description of one on the borderline.

The only broad consensus is that threat saturation is a problem and something needs to go, but it also means everyone is going to have a different place they want to start.
 
Alternator said:
I don't believe people are broadly anti-ban, but I do believe there is nothing so obviously a problem that virtually everyone agrees it has to go, like Bloodmoon was, or that has a defining moment of dominance, like Archaludon did in Week 1 SPL. There's just a bunch of strong offensive threats that, in total, are making life very difficult on balance teams, but no one of them is without answers. You can easily make a case for a half-dozen mons to be broken, but you can likewise make a case for any of them to be garden-variety top-tier offensive threats, as well.

Look at Gouging Fire - how many pro-ban voters have said something like, "I faced a bunch of Gouging Fire teams and didn't lose to any of them, but I'm still voting ban because..." and then gone into team building concerns? That's not the description of an obviously broken mon, that's the description of one on the borderline.

The only broad consensus is that threat saturation is a problem and something needs to go, but it also means everyone is going to have a different place they want to start.
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree it’s probably something closer to this. I do think very high level players are more e.g. Storm Zone, CTC are more positive about the state of the meta. Which I totally respect, and don’t necessarily disagree with but I think it’s prob 1-2 bans away.
 
Alternator said:
Look at Gouging Fire - how many pro-ban voters have said something like, "I faced a bunch of Gouging Fire teams and didn't lose to any of them, but I'm still voting ban because..." and then gone into team building concerns? That's not the description of an obviously broken mon, that's the description of one on the borderline.
Click to expand...
I can’t say I agree with this fully; teambuilding concerns and limitations are the cause for a lot of tiering action.

That’s not to say Gouging Fire is crazy — it itself is a more borderline case for sure. But I don’t think your logic here applies universally as we do need a varied metagame still.
 
Vaporwavvve said:
Yeah I agree it’s probably something closer to this. I do think very high level players are more e.g. Storm Zone, CTC are more positive about the state of the meta. Which I totally respect, and don’t necessarily disagree with but I think it’s prob 1-2 bans away.
Click to expand...
i think it's definitely possible to make this into a fantastic meta but it needs a little more than 1-2 bans to do that. gouging fire and raging bolt absolutely need to go, waterpon and roaring moon should likely follow, i'm not convinced kyurem is ok to have around, i still think gambit is a cheatermon that's far overstayed its welcome, and i still want ghold gone. if we can manage to get all of those mons out of the picture, i can see the future of this meta being a bright one. the problem is that we won't
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
i think it's definitely possible to make this into a fantastic meta but it needs a little more than 1-2 bans to do that. gouging fire and raging bolt absolutely need to go, waterpon and roaring moon should likely follow, i'm not convinced kyurem is ok to have around, i still think gambit is a cheatermon that's far overstayed its welcome, and i still want ghold gone. if we can manage to get all of those mons out of the picture, i can see the future of this meta being a bright one. the problem is that we won't
Click to expand...

I think you may not want to keep playing OU my man.
 
Vaporwavvve said:
I think you may not want to keep playing OU my man.
Click to expand...
i can't say you're wrong. i'll probably be stepping back from the tier until next gen if this gouging suspect fails. maybe i'll try to revive gen-next or see if there's any interest in those "gods among us" tours or something. i want to play something, but it isn't this
 
Bans are always going to struggle going forward because nearly every ban candidate has to contend with the the fact that Kingambit is obviously more broken than this, so why ban this?

I'm aware of Kingambits suspect. I don't think anyone has done anything wrong. It's just that his survival makes it way harder to ban anything else. Even if you believe Kingambit isn't broken, the sentiment is still there.
 
TurquoiseLink said:
Bans are always going to struggle going forward because nearly every ban candidate has to contend with the the fact that Kingambit is obviously more broken than this, so why ban this?

I'm aware of Kingambits suspect. I don't think anyone has done anything wrong. It's just that his survival makes it way harder to ban anything else. Even if you believe Kingambit isn't broken, the sentiment is still there.
Click to expand...
I don’t think many people feel this way
 
I concur with Finchinator that the meta is nowhere near as bad as some people think it is. Sure, it can use some work, but things could be a lot worse. Banning Archaludon, and soon also Gouging Fire, will free up building a decent degree although more would still need to be done.
 
I am just going to say that I feel really sad that GF is on that power level. I think it's design (stats, type and movepool-wise) is amazing, versatile and brings a lot to the table, but sadly it is its raw power that brings it down. Like, I am running an SpDef GF with Dragon Rush and Temper Flare, fishing for those DRush misses to boost Flare. Incredible stally set. However:

GBgvRxHXAAA5nnw.png


and that sucks tbh. I find myself enjoying metas with a mon that acts like the queen in chess. Something incredibly powerful, that the opponent will also surely bring, but that brings a lot of flexibility. Snorlax in GSC, TTar in ADV, Magearna in UUbers as a recent example... I feel that most questionable mons this gen only have like big numbers and go brrr and offer small flexibility. I think GF could have been that queen-like mon if not for

hehe-funny-fire-dinosaur-go-brrr-v0-joig37ocd8ac1.jpeg


and that's a shame. I would welcome it staying, but that opens the door to a significant increase of power level and volatility in the meta. It's cool if we wanna go for that, but I feel like we're super close to a VERY stable meta.
 
arnimacarni said:
I am just going to say that I feel really sad that GF is on that power level. I think it's design (stats, type and movepool-wise) is amazing, versatile and brings a lot to the table, but sadly it is its raw power that brings it down. Like, I am running an SpDef GF with Dragon Rush and Temper Flare, fishing for those DRush misses to boost Flare. Incredible stally set. However:

View attachment 614862

and that sucks tbh. I find myself enjoying metas with a mon that acts like the queen in chess. Something incredibly powerful, that the opponent will also surely bring, but that brings a lot of flexibility. Snorlax in GSC, TTar in ADV, Magearna in UUbers as a recent example... I feel that most questionable mons this gen only have like big numbers and go brrr and offer small flexibility. I think GF could have been that queen-like mon if not for

View attachment 614865

and that's a shame. I would welcome it staying, but that opens the door to a significant increase of power level and volatility in the meta. It's cool if we wanna go for that, but I feel like we're super close to a VERY stable meta.
Click to expand...
honestly if it got something that wasn't protosynthesis gouging fire could have been the new lando-t. not in terms of being the most used mon, but in terms of being super flexible, super splashable, and a fantastic option both offensively and defensively. but it's just too fucking strong and too matchup-fishy
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
honestly if it got something that wasn't protosynthesis gouging fire could have been the new lando-t. not in terms of being the most used mon, but in terms of being super flexible, super splashable, and a fantastic option both offensively and defensively. but it's just too fucking strong and too matchup-fishy
Click to expand...
Lots of mons get ruined by one aspect in their kit. Annihilape without rage first might have been alright, though it may have still been a bit problematic. Espathra without speed boost would have been fine, opportunist is such a cool ability but why would you ever run it over speed boost? Sneasler without unburden is very cool, and just a great offensive mon. Kingambit without supreme overlord could have been an alright mon, though I think if it didn't have sucker punch it would have definetely been fine.
Like, there are probably more that could be talked about, but game freak decides to make something "unique" about them that ultimately is not beneficial to there viability as they just end up in a place where they are unviable, besides gambit but that can be unviable for all I care.
 
Made a new Gliscor set:

Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Breaking Swipe
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Protect

It’s a Gouging Fire ripoff, basically. Lowers enemy attack and speed, which is cool. Good against non tera Volcarona because rock move. Maybe Taunt over Breaking Swipe? Or over Rock Tomb.
 
EpicGuy321 said:
Made a new Gliscor set:

Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Breaking Swipe
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Protect

It’s a Gouging Fire ripoff, basically. Lowers enemy attack and speed, which is cool. Good against non tera Volcarona because rock move. Maybe Taunt over Breaking Swipe? Or over Rock Tomb.
Click to expand...
How do you abuse Breaking Swipe if you don’t increase your attack?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top