Ty (I'm still losing hella braincells)
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
My friends, Ampharos is the greatest Tera abuser of all OU.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2152229826
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2152231954
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2152229826
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2152231954
Hi, this is my new team for OU: https://pokepast.es/b2d5708a135d50be
All of you are completely blinded. The argument that the Air Balloon is the most broken item in the Gen 9 OU metagame hinges on its unparalleled ability to provide Ground-type immunity, a significant strategic advantage not matched by any other item. The lack of equivalent items for other typings, combined with the critical role Ground-type moves play in the current meta, underscores the disproportionate impact of the Air Balloon. By offering immunity to one of the most influential types in Pokémon battles, Air Balloon skews the balance of power, necessitating a reevaluation of its place in competitive play.
Im also in favor of banning tera. Horrific mechanic and whoever created did not play Pokémon or does not care about the competitive aspect of Pokemon.
Im also in favor of banning tera. Horrific mechanic and whoever created did not play Pokémon or does not care about the competitive aspect of Pokemon.
I'm fully convinced this is AI
In the competitive Pokémon environment of Scarlet and Violet's OverUsed (SV OU) tier, the combination of Air Balloon and Terastalization contributes to a balanced metagame by introducing strategic depth and counterplay options. Air Balloon provides immunity to Ground-type moves, which are otherwise highly effective against many popular threats, thus offering temporary protection and enabling tactical maneuvering. Terastalization, on the other hand, allows Pokémon to change their type mid-battle, adapting to opponents' strategies and turning the tide in critical moments. This mechanic introduces unpredictability and requires players to think several steps ahead, fostering a dynamic and skillful metagame. Together, these elements encourage diverse team compositions and prevent any single strategy from dominating, maintaining a healthy competitive balance.
Terastalization in the Pokémon Scarlet & Violet Overused metagame is seen as a constricting mechanic because it facilitates and rewards cheesy play-styles, undermining the strategic depth typically favored in competitive play. This mechanic allows Pokémon to change their type mid-battle, effectively nullifying their weaknesses and enabling unexpected reverse sweeps. As a result, players often resort to "matchup fishing," seeking favorable scenarios where their opponents are ill-prepared for an unpredictable Terastalization rather than constructing well-rounded, balanced teams designed to counter the metagame. This emphasis on unpredictability and opportunistic plays diminishes the viability of niche strategies, as the constant threat of a sudden type change from major threats imposes significant constraints on teambuilding, pushing the metagame towards a narrower, more volatile state.
Look the SV OU ai copypasta spamming is silly but OU discussion forums is probably not the place for that since discussion is meant to be serious after all, as much as I hate to ruin the fun here because this is frankly amusing
Bringing down Ubers to the OU tier in an attempt to improve the metagame is always a delicate balance, as Ubers are generally banned for being too powerful. However, here are five Ubers that could potentially be brought down to OU without completely disrupting the balance, provided they are carefully monitored and potentially adjusted:
- Zamazenta-Crowned - While incredibly bulky and strong, its lack of reliable recovery and relatively low offensive presence could allow it to fit into OU as a bulky pivot or defensive wall, depending on the meta's needs.
- Urshifu-Single Strike - Urshifu-Single Strike is powerful with its Unseen Fist ability and STAB moves, but its speed tier and defenses make it manageable in the OU environment. It would provide a strong physical attacker that can pressure defensive cores.
- Zacian-Crowned - With its great speed and Attack stats, Zacian-Crowned could dominate the tier, but with careful nerfing (such as removing Intrepid Sword or tweaking its stats slightly), it could offer a high-speed offensive threat that could help keep balance.
- Kyurem-White - As a special attacker, Kyurem-White has incredible power and coverage but is hindered by its speed and susceptibility to priority moves and common weaknesses. It could bring a new dimension to OU's offensive threats.
- Palkia - Palkia's typing and stats make it a strong mixed attacker, but its viability in OU could be balanced by the prevalence of Fairy-types and its reliance on Hydro Pump for maximum damage output.
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On a serious note though
No Ubers should be dropping any time soon get me out
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One thing about Palafin retest: I’m actually in favor of it and have been for a while, but I think it should wait until after we decide whether Ogerpon-W is going to continue to stay on the radar or just stay in the tier. As of right now, it’s a very contentious Pokémon, and there’s no denying it’s a significant tool offensive would be able to have to prevent lategame Palafin Jet Punch sweeps. Not saying that Palafin’s presence or absence in the tier should be decided solely on the basis of a single Pokémon, but I could realistically see a world where Palafin proves juuuuust manageable enough up until an Ogerpon-W ban which tips the scale in favor of it being broken, in which case, it would have just been better to evaluate it after a Woger ban and skip the hassle.
Hey man, nice to see u engage with the community, but we rarely share teams in here. This thread is a deeper metagame discussion about various aspects of the tier and whenever people share teams they frame it as "i have been running this xxxxx team and i have been having success, i struggle with this and that, anyone using a similar team?". I recommend you check out the Rate My Team subforum or the Battling 101 if you want more beginner help.
Responding to your actual team, it's a good start! I can't speak much on Tinkaton, but I can tell you it's a dubious mon. It has its merits, but it counters very specific things, mainly Darkrai, and you shouldn't face too much issues with Darkrai as Hilligant outspeeds under Sun and can kill it with CC. Kilowattrel on the other hand I can tell you that it's a very unsound mon to use. If you're adding it for Tailwind, you don't really need it, as Hilli and WW both have tremendous speed under Sun.
If you're going down this route, I encourage you to search some Triple Dino Sun teams as those are very fun HO teams to use. GFire hits like a truck under sun (only fire mon with proto) and RBolt has amazing bulk and spatk. As a sixth mon, you could go Tusk, which synergizes well with sun and provides you with electric immunity. If you don't wanna go the Triple Dino route, maybe just two Dinos is enough, and you can add Gambit or Pult or Ghold or Kyurem or whomever. The main thing is that whenever you're building in a particular archetype, eg sun, you want to make sure theres good synergy and that the plan involves all or most of your mons. rn only three mons are going in on the sun strat, either drop sun or add more sun abusers. same goes with rain and psyterrain. grassy terrain teams are more flexible but also have synergies with the field status. hope this helps you!
Yeah if waterpon goes I think it might still be worth a second look even if waterpon goes because rillaboom would see more usage and can wear palafin down before it can get a chance to set up and raging bolt kinda dunks on palafin to a degree anyway. Amazingly rillaboom can okho the ubers bulk up set for palafin hilariously enough with a banded grassy glide. So yeah I think palafin is a good enough retest mon for sure even without waterpon since we do have rillaboom and raging bolt who are capable of giving it a rough time.
I don't play rain teams, nor have I ever tried to build one, but I saw a concern raised about the power of Palafin's Wave Crash when stacked up with Choice Band, Tera Water, and rain.
My question is: would that actually be a problem with rain teams? You'd either need to lead Palafin and give the opponent a free turn to set hazards/chunk the Pelipper switch in/get off a free boost, or sacrifice momentum mid-match to get Palafin transformed. In either case, you're handing a (mostly) free turn to the opponent while playing a team style that routinely lacks a defensive backbone, which seems to balance out the ability to OHKO even the bulkiest of neutral mons.
I'm not questioning whether Palafin would be used at all, but it seems very high-risk, high-reward rather than an obvious balance problem.
My question is: would that actually be a problem with rain teams? You'd either need to lead Palafin and give the opponent a free turn to set hazards/chunk the Pelipper switch in/get off a free boost, or sacrifice momentum mid-match to get Palafin transformed. In either case, you're handing a (mostly) free turn to the opponent while playing a team style that routinely lacks a defensive backbone, which seems to balance out the ability to OHKO even the bulkiest of neutral mons.
I'm not questioning whether Palafin would be used at all, but it seems very high-risk, high-reward rather than an obvious balance problem.
great tusk himself wrote this post
Well, palafin could easily slot in flip turn into its arsenal (using 3 water moves is the standard for Barra and Basc, so it's not that far fetched) which even in the non-hero form, would still do a nice bit of damage to anything switching in and allow you to get the hero form activated. And besides, the one turn momentum lose (though very small momentum lose cause you still are damaging opponents and switching out) would be worth it in order to get such a strong mon.
Idk if rain teams would become problematic if palafin was dropped (please don't drop it, it will decimate the tier with different sets that sit on each specific style, sometimes multiple if people optimise it enough), but it would most certainly not high risk. Getting Barra in is already sometimes difficult, but rain teams make it work because it is such a high reward. Palafin has actual bulk, which makes it much easier to get in.
Pokemon Violet and Scarlett have had many OU metagame bans. After some time, users with more clout than peepeepoopoo72 have vocalized concerns about the anti-"broken checks-broken" conspiracy. It has been proposed that we should actually consider species more closely concerning contribution to the ecosystem rather than "what is most bad now?".
A few reputable users have floated the idea of some unbans and in past week Palafin has been discussed. This proposal often includes suggesting that Volcarona should return, as it was vital to the ecosystem and has resulted in the continued cascade if bans.
Banning signature moves to keep other Species in OU has been a theme at all.
Note: Finch commented prior to the Volcarona test that if it resulted in a DNB there would be a "philisophical" discussion. This was around the time a council member tweeted about potential unbans the council discussed.
I do suggest CTC, Storm, Vert be consulted in a tournament under what OU could look like with 3-5 changes, to potentially include unbans, tera blast ban, sig move bans.
A darkrai unban in a tournament resulted in it's unban, to my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong. Worth a try given increased concersation..
I'd like to see where the +volc +eleki +palafin with or without tera blast route takes us.
Would another survey now that so much conversation be out of the question? To include tera blast? Or palafin? Since suspect for darkrai doesn't seem to be nearly as in demand as gouging fire or blood moon?
Just my thoughts
I think I'm siding with no re-test gang in regards to Palafin. The most Wellspring would do is make the Choice set less mindless to pilot, but people keep forgetting about how it takes severe damage from Close Combat which makes switching in inherently risky. Not to mention Palafin can survive a Power Whip after a Bulk Up and either kill it with CC or juke it with Tera and 2HKO it with Drain Punch/Ice Punch. If Wellspring is supposed to be the difference maker, then Palafin might as well stay in Ubers as Wogre isn't a solid enough check to this thing outside 0IQ unga bunga piloting. On paper, Sinistcha could also be a solid check, but Tera Fire Taunt+ Bulk Up turns Sini into setup fooder.
Tbh, the closest thing a 'safe' retest would be Zama-Crowned given how it loses it residual recovery vanilla Zam gets from leftovers to safely snowball as well as losing a fair bit of speed. Though its new typing, significantly higher bulk and STAB Heavy Slam (off a MUCH heavier 'mon) could lead to some unwelcome effects, especially given how people are already sick of normie Zam.
Tbh, the closest thing a 'safe' retest would be Zama-Crowned given how it loses it residual recovery vanilla Zam gets from leftovers to safely snowball as well as losing a fair bit of speed. Though its new typing, significantly higher bulk and STAB Heavy Slam (off a MUCH heavier 'mon) could lead to some unwelcome effects, especially given how people are already sick of normie Zam.
1. Koraidon - Everyone complains about Kingambit. I think dropping Koraidon would provide us an excellent check and also fix the small issues sun teams have in the metagame (Tork and Ninetales aren't the greatest at setting sun)
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 274-323 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2. Miraidon - Aren't you tired of Zamazenta 6-0ing every team with IDBP? Adding some good special attackers to the tier would certainly help out there.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Electric Terrain: 387-456 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Additionally, there's been a lot of debate recently about sleep moves. Having a good electric terrain setter with high usage would be a great benefit because we could just remove the clause altogether and avoid all these debates.
3. Necrozma-DM - Pretty sure Kingambit's high usage means this thing won't be a huge issue. Unlike Solgaleo, it doesn't get teleport so we don't have to worry about it being a bulky pivot. Plus it gives us a good Waterpon switch-in
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Tera Fire Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 339-400 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
4. Zacian-C - You know how everyone's been talking about suspecting Darkrai lately? Maybe with this drop we won't have to.
+2 252+ SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 130-153 (40 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 98-115 (30.1 - 35.3%) -- 29% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. Zacian-Crowned: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
5. Ho-oh - Everyone talks about dropping Lugia but nobody ever talks about dropping Ho-oh.
I can't see any possible way these could go wrong.
I feel this is a bit of a misquote/misunderstanding. There was going to be discussions of potential retests regardless of the Volcarona suspect's verdict and the direction of SV OU is always up for discussion, not just contingent upon a single suspect's result
1. flutter mane. outspeeds and kills darkrai. and like half the tier but i'm specifically looking at darkrai. that and she's also adorable. she should be free
2 & 3. koraidon and miraidon. i think they're both really adorable and they also blow everything the fuck up and the tier clearly needs more of that. plus the fact that they're naturally bulky dragon types means ogerpon gets nerfed considerably. couldn't choose between one or the other so why not release them both?
4. kyurem-white. because we obviously need a stronger kyurem in this metagame. does the same old kyurem things except now your air balloon steels don't work anymore. like yeah it almost one-shots slowking-G with draco meteor but it's kinda slow so it'd actually be quite balanced
5. urshifu. the dark type one. saw some guys on discord try arguing that darkshifu could be retested a few months back and i think it'd be very funny if it actually happened
My 5 Ubers:
1. Zamazenta Crowned. No item Mon, so will collapse to hazards. Gambit check and physical Mons check in general, but loses to bulky teams.
2. Lugia. Horrendous base typing, Recover only has 8 PPs. It hardly will sweep and won't wall forever.
3. Giratina-A. Defogger that beats Gholdengo. Offensive sets should lose to Tera Fairy Garg. Typing gives a lot of weaknesses, though bulk compensates those and has better resistances than Lugia.
4. Archaludon. I disagreed with this Ban and still do. Provides a check to Waterpon and Gambit, increases Ground usage so that Raging Bolt and Gouging Fire kinda become worse too.
After these 4, everything else is so broken (some due to Tera Blast alone, but still), so I wouldn't test anything. Palafin or Watershifu would increase the number of broken Water Mons (each having different checks), we already have enough with Waterpon, Wake and the few Rain teams that remain after Archaludon departure, they would be extremely hard to handle and create the broken (Waterpon) checks broken situation. I disagreed with Sneasler Ban too, but nowadays it would saturate us with another big threat that is hard to RK. Iron Bundle is fun has Dewgong as check now, but creates the same Water centralization as Palafin or Watershifu, but to even greater degree. Darkshifu is just no, not another Dark type who you can't even Protect against to scout (though the meta does deal with frail and slow Hoopa). Zacian could probably be handled by Unaware Mons or even Volcarona if we drop that too (though I don't want Volca again), maybe even Galarian Weezing, but rest will stand no chance, it has perfect coverage and unlike Zamazenta a very good defensive typing. So, no more Mons have a solid case for me to be tested. Still, so since the question was about 5 banned things not 4, I will bring up a last one.
5. Last Respects. Yes, this has been banned to AG. However, I think there is enough counterplay compared to other Ubers:
-Dark types are everywhere. Most of them bulky enough to take one hit and hit back. Gambit is literally the best Mon in the meta and has Sucker Punch. Some Dark Mons can be Scarfers and outspeed both Houndstone and Basculegion, see Darkrai and Meowscarada. Lokix deserves a special mention due to having both Sucker Punch and Tinted Lens First Impression in case the Last Respects Mons Tera.
-Priority is also everywhere. I mentioned Gambit and Lokix, but Meowscarada gets Sucker Punch too. Cinderace can become a Dark type too. Tera Ghost Attack boosting Valiant has been appearing on ladder a lot. Raging Bolt can smash Basculegion and hit Houndstone hard too. Rillaboom has Grassy Glide for the fish. Grimmsmarl has a different type of priority, with Screens, TW and Parting Shot (also has Sucker Punch).
-Fast non Dark Scarfers, such as Pult can get the job done.
-Unless they run Boots (therefore hitting less hard), Sticky Web makes Last Respects Mons slow.
-Garganacl with Iron Defense. Won't stop Basculegion without Tera, but will stop Houndstone.
-Some Booster Energy users should be able to outspeed (Valiant, Boulder and Moon).
-Dragonite is a common Tera Normal Mon that should be able to withstand the assaults of Last Respects.
-Tera Dark Mons such as Tusk are a thing.
-Normal types exist in this meta. Pdef Blissey or Chansey should be able to take Body Press from Houndstone. Basculegion will break, but get a lot of recoil in the process. Ursaluna should also beat Houndstone one on one and with Tera, should kill Basculegion too. Maushold is very frail, but still prevents spamming the move. Indeedee is also frail, but is notable for not being weak to Fight and also enabling Hawlucha to outspeed (and maybe use Encore too) both Basculegion and Houndstone.
-Tera Normal something like Alomomola should be enough. Just one dedicated Tera slot for the situation, it's not that much commitment.
-Winning the weather Mon. For Last Respects to reach broken mode, at least 2 kills are needed. If one of those is the weather setter and you have another one alive + weather abusser, you won't lose to Last Respects.
-Using the same weather but with a faster abuser. Excadrill is faster than Houndstone and Barraskewda is faster than Basculegion, also having Crunch.
-Alola Raichu + Pincurchin is very niche, but a real answer. You can fit Hawlucha and Quark Drive Mons (hi, Boulder and Jugulis) there too.
-Avoid hazards (Hatterene, Cinderace, Tusk, etc.) and have some Focus Sash Mon.
Just to clarify, I don't want anything retested at the moment, at all, we should go in the Ban direction with Darkrai or preferably Waterpon. However, any of the 5 things I mentioned (including Last Respects) has a far better case to be tested than Palafin, Urshifu or Volcarona.
1. Zamazenta Crowned. No item Mon, so will collapse to hazards. Gambit check and physical Mons check in general, but loses to bulky teams.
2. Lugia. Horrendous base typing, Recover only has 8 PPs. It hardly will sweep and won't wall forever.
3. Giratina-A. Defogger that beats Gholdengo. Offensive sets should lose to Tera Fairy Garg. Typing gives a lot of weaknesses, though bulk compensates those and has better resistances than Lugia.
4. Archaludon. I disagreed with this Ban and still do. Provides a check to Waterpon and Gambit, increases Ground usage so that Raging Bolt and Gouging Fire kinda become worse too.
After these 4, everything else is so broken (some due to Tera Blast alone, but still), so I wouldn't test anything. Palafin or Watershifu would increase the number of broken Water Mons (each having different checks), we already have enough with Waterpon, Wake and the few Rain teams that remain after Archaludon departure, they would be extremely hard to handle and create the broken (Waterpon) checks broken situation. I disagreed with Sneasler Ban too, but nowadays it would saturate us with another big threat that is hard to RK. Iron Bundle is fun has Dewgong as check now, but creates the same Water centralization as Palafin or Watershifu, but to even greater degree. Darkshifu is just no, not another Dark type who you can't even Protect against to scout (though the meta does deal with frail and slow Hoopa). Zacian could probably be handled by Unaware Mons or even Volcarona if we drop that too (though I don't want Volca again), maybe even Galarian Weezing, but rest will stand no chance, it has perfect coverage and unlike Zamazenta a very good defensive typing. So, no more Mons have a solid case for me to be tested. Still, so since the question was about 5 banned things not 4, I will bring up a last one.
5. Last Respects. Yes, this has been banned to AG. However, I think there is enough counterplay compared to other Ubers:
-Dark types are everywhere. Most of them bulky enough to take one hit and hit back. Gambit is literally the best Mon in the meta and has Sucker Punch. Some Dark Mons can be Scarfers and outspeed both Houndstone and Basculegion, see Darkrai and Meowscarada. Lokix deserves a special mention due to having both Sucker Punch and Tinted Lens First Impression in case the Last Respects Mons Tera.
-Priority is also everywhere. I mentioned Gambit and Lokix, but Meowscarada gets Sucker Punch too. Cinderace can become a Dark type too. Tera Ghost Attack boosting Valiant has been appearing on ladder a lot. Raging Bolt can smash Basculegion and hit Houndstone hard too. Rillaboom has Grassy Glide for the fish. Grimmsmarl has a different type of priority, with Screens, TW and Parting Shot (also has Sucker Punch).
-Fast non Dark Scarfers, such as Pult can get the job done.
-Unless they run Boots (therefore hitting less hard), Sticky Web makes Last Respects Mons slow.
-Garganacl with Iron Defense. Won't stop Basculegion without Tera, but will stop Houndstone.
-Some Booster Energy users should be able to outspeed (Valiant, Boulder and Moon).
-Dragonite is a common Tera Normal Mon that should be able to withstand the assaults of Last Respects.
-Tera Dark Mons such as Tusk are a thing.
-Normal types exist in this meta. Pdef Blissey or Chansey should be able to take Body Press from Houndstone. Basculegion will break, but get a lot of recoil in the process. Ursaluna should also beat Houndstone one on one and with Tera, should kill Basculegion too. Maushold is very frail, but still prevents spamming the move. Indeedee is also frail, but is notable for not being weak to Fight and also enabling Hawlucha to outspeed (and maybe use Encore too) both Basculegion and Houndstone.
-Tera Normal something like Alomomola should be enough. Just one dedicated Tera slot for the situation, it's not that much commitment.
-Winning the weather Mon. For Last Respects to reach broken mode, at least 2 kills are needed. If one of those is the weather setter and you have another one alive + weather abusser, you won't lose to Last Respects.
-Using the same weather but with a faster abuser. Excadrill is faster than Houndstone and Barraskewda is faster than Basculegion, also having Crunch.
-Alola Raichu + Pincurchin is very niche, but a real answer. You can fit Hawlucha and Quark Drive Mons (hi, Boulder and Jugulis) there too.
-Avoid hazards (Hatterene, Cinderace, Tusk, etc.) and have some Focus Sash Mon.
Just to clarify, I don't want anything retested at the moment, at all, we should go in the Ban direction with Darkrai or preferably Waterpon. However, any of the 5 things I mentioned (including Last Respects) has a far better case to be tested than Palafin, Urshifu or Volcarona.
This is some Mossad tier psy-op to make anti-Tera crowd look silly I stg lol
Legit lmao at this; you're like alright funny joke but let's have some semblance of a legitimate forum and then get snipped by the most unserious post ever lol. Even wilder is how multiple ppl responded to the question and listed 5 Ubers
Uh, I was being kinda serious. Considering there is both a retest Palafin movement, and a "unban Volc banning it was a mistake" movement I think it's clear that there is some thought that for balancing SV OU we should be accepting power creep and unbanning Pokemon instead of keep banning threat of the week. I thought it could've been a fun little thought experiment, but people took it as a joke :\This is some Mossad tier psy-op to make anti-Tera crowd look silly I stg lol
Legit lmao at this; you're like alright funny joke but let's have some semblance of a legitimate forum and then get snipped by the most unserious post ever lol. Even wilder is how multiple ppl responded to the question and listed 5 Ubers
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I wonder how the guy who first uttered Midrai is feeling right now. Probably suffering from some Bad Dreams.