I said it mostly as a joke because Kyurem is a Pokemon that I can't stand. Additionally, there may be another Kyurem suspect test in the coming weeks!
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem unbanned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I said it mostly as a joke because Kyurem is a Pokemon that I can't stand. Additionally, there may be another Kyurem suspect test in the coming weeks!
Ngl respect ur opinion but this is extremely untrue. Kyurem is insane, has been basically since it dodged being banned by 2% and has only gotten worse. Ur analysis of subtect is really bad considering that this is fundamentally a freezespam breaker and is mainly going to be using the fact that you need to scout for which kyurem set it is to get up a sub and give it opportunities to a) use its amazing base spa and its perfect coverage to break, and b) fish for freezes with freeze dry, which considering that its usually going to be clicking freeze dry into your switchin for it, means every freeze dry gives kyurem a 10% chance to win the game straight up because then your main switchin is basically instantly dead; this is also going to go up the more this set can click freeze dry, which it is built to do. 3 clicks gives it a ~28% chance of freezing something, which seems low until you realize that freeze is broken and if it gets it, you lose your switchin and potentially the game. Your list of mons that disrupt it is just really poor as well; ting lu is there despite being a ground type and used to soft-check half the tier for defensive teams, roar zama is going to risk freeze, same as moltres, who also isn't always going to run roar, especially now that gouging fire is gone considering that it really needs wisp to reliably hit burn and it really wants uturn to not be dead weight momentum wise; also listing physical kyu as a counter is lmao. stuff like faster encore mons, choice trick, and pult are all never going to be able to switchin to this thing bar hard-pivots by gking, who kyurem is never going to be switching in on, and so is only likely possible through hard-reads, which is insanely risky given the whole 'perfect coverage + freeze' thing kyurem has going on, and so are really not reliable at all. Also, 'good-amount of offensive mons can break sub and easily take a hit' -- maybe on offense lmao but the strain this puts on balance is insane.
Claiming specs is fine is whatever, its not considering that you need ice resists for it and it can smash through basically all of them with, again, perfect coverage and nuclear power AND freeze, but the problem is also that you need to scout for literally all of these sets and also need to scout for different tera types; this is especially seen to benefit subtect, which is arguably as good as it is because of kyurem's insane number of sets. You're forced to scout for it and it gets up a sub, or you go to your switchin expecting one set and get dumpstered by one of its many other sets. You go gking, turns out its dd and ruh roh, now you're on the backfoot really bad.
Also this sentence "Mixed variants are a pain for stall and fat balance but we aren't banning ursaluna, gliscor, samurott, or hoopa for being too good into them" is just so bad considering that gliscor give sup a ton of opportunity cost to not go regular spikestackign sets, hammurott actually has switchins and doesnt have perfect coverage/freeze, and luna and hoopa are like just so not on the same level as kyurem its kind of nuts that they're actually brought up alongside it.
Just want to point out that the mons you claim "outspeed it when it should outspeed" like tusk ghold and gouging only do this on HO or offense, which um is not the teamstyle kyurem is controversial into. Also again subtect being able to freeze stuff and having perfect coverage and taking advantage of its switchins is not mentioned once here. You also talk about how its weak to disruption like phazing i guess but the stuff thats phazing it actually needs to risk being frozen first or just hit with its perfect coverage, so thats not actually reliable if you're not playing against it with HO, in which case, good for you, kyurem won't be as much of a threat.
I agree with this post in general for sure and it's an amazing response but I've seen this sentiment about 'waiting for the meta to settle' and not going to lie we have waited over two months for the meta to settle since volcarona. I think we have done enough waiting considering kyurem has been controversial for literally months, and its not a crime to want action at a more rapid speed. I am not seeing what will change the meta with gouging gone beyond like roar molt and tickle mola becoming less popular, or grasses getting better, none of which will negatively effect kyurem. kyurem is not gonna get better with gouging fire gone at all, I'm not sure why it would considering gouging fire was like 19th in usage last i checked. We can have action at a fast pace if what we're acting on has been controversial forever, and I think its something that should be asked for.
Ah, fellow pro-TB Ban gentleman! Welcome! Care for some tea?
OK, but fr, I think you already know my stance on that and one other move in this meta, so I won't repeat myself. Kyurem I have largely no objections despite my indifference, and I'm willing to let that mon go to prove a point.
Although as well as this FreezeTect set I've been hearing about, DD is the mixup option it's always been, and couple that with the talk of broken moves, well...
(Inb4 'are you /srs or /j?' - A: both)
I getcha; mine was basically the same joke for the same reason. I’m in the position where on principle I always think it’s good to wait a couple weeks between suspects just in case, but I also don’t think there’s really any changes to the metagame that will happen as a result of Gouging’s ban that will cause Kyurem to stop being the number 1 priority for banning past this point.
Yes I agree
The meta just got a pretty sizable shake up with a major threat banned from the tier and it's going to lead to changes undoubtedly. While I'm very skeptical that it'll be any more tolerable (which I said ) that there will be more Kyurem counterplay, it's impatient and imo bad to rush to another suspect without giving the tier some time to adjust. If Kyurem has been as controversial as you say (and to be clear, I don't like this mon either), why was it not tested? The support simply wasn't there. It would be irresponsible to rush to a suspect on a mon like this when it doesn't have near the same level of support as Gouging did for action. What would happen if you did suspect it so soon, and it escaped a ban again? You'd be stuck with it for the rest of the gen (as far as I know, it's pretty unheard of to suspect something three times). Give people time to get used to the tier with Gouging gone. You never know. Maybe people WILL find more stuff for Kyurem. No one can know for sure.
I'm also not sure what at all bringing up Gouging's usage has anything to do with anything here. I understand you're very anti-kyurem, but you have to understand not everyone is, not to that level, and it's important to let the tier settle again before making anymore changes like that.
I like kyurem in the meta and hope it stays but saying the support isn't there is blatantly false. When kingambit and roaring moon were suspect tested they were in the mid 3s and typically a pokemon above 4 would be quickbanned. Obviously the bar to take immediate action goes up once the metagame has been active for a while hence gouging fire getting suspected rather than quickbanned but I would not be surprised if we get a suspect before the public tiering survey that's supposed to be out next month or so.
While you're right that we could get a Kyurem suspect soon, Finchinator did indicate that the survey could actually be this month as he said it'd be in September or October. IIRC, he also said at one time during the Gouging Fire suspect that the Council isn't planning its next suspect test before the current one is even over while also later indicating that they aren't married to any particular course of action, so I'd say Finch was tempering expectations so that the playerbase isn't surprised either way with what it does. Granted, I still lean towards no suspect for a a few weeks more given Finchinator's remarks, but we'll see I guess.
I never said it wouldn't? I'm saying why we shouldn't test it so quickly after Gouging's ban, which is what Venu was wanting. A month isn't quick. Just let the tier settle a bit before jumping at the mon.
Yeah as of right now I would vote ban on kyurem. While each set has its own set of individual checks, nothing really wants to consistently switch into kyurem, especially with the risk of it forcing a kill or potential sweep if you guess the set wrong. The sub-tect set isnt obscenely broken but just adds another potential thing to worry about with the mon and elevates it as a whole, as it became a threat that both forces and also severely punishes switches. It really adds nothing healthy to the meta, we dont need a bulky annoying wallbreaker like gouge with a million dangerous sets and tera types plus rng chances with freezes in the tier at all. I suspect if it is suspect tested, it would get banned. Most people are fed up with it, including myself. Some time probably has to pass because people are shaky on bans too soon after one another, but kyurem definitely needs a suspect within the next month. I'd say it is the next most broken and banworthy mon in the tier right now followed closely by wellspring and darkrai.
At this point, I'm pro ban on Kyurem. But the problem to me isn't sub/tect specifically. It's the already borderline wallbreaking ability combined with the set versatility that makes it really too unreasonable to ask players to check it. Before I get into some problems I have with this mon, let me say some things that don't bother me.
Sub/tect is uncompetitive cheese, but it's mostly manageable uncompetitive cheese. If half the set is dedicated to sub/tect, that leaves less available for other cheese. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't help that Kyurem can do this. It just adds to the set diversity headache. But this is probably the most overrated set right now. There is actually a lot of available counter play to it, and given time, I'm pretty sure the metagame could adapt. For example, it is shut down by Encore. There are also moves that can beat subs. Multi-hit moves like Dragon Darts and Tachyon Cutter both hit Kyurem super effectively and would likely only need one hit (barring Tera) to break the sub. Iron Crown can probably even take a Freeze Dry and outspeed it. Infiltrator can also bypass Subs, and a lot of special Pults run this. Then there are sound based moves. Psychic Noise is one of the most useful moves for its anti-healing properties. There are also Hyper Voice, Alluring Voice, and even Bug Buzz if you can viably find it. Although it has fallen off, Torch Song is also sound based if you can actually manage to find a decent Dirge team.
Now, about Freeze. There are certain moves like Scald that can unthaw you. Lum Berry isn't super common these days, but it can be run to avoid Burn or Paralyses. It also covers Freeze. You can also Tera Ice to take Kyurem's hits and avoid freezes. While Ice is normally a very bad defensive typing, it isn't into Kyurem. It wouldn't necesarrily be a bad situational Tera if you can combine it with some offense. Another thing you can do to stop Freeze fishing is Covert Cloak. I know, I know, sometimes you may need to carry a defensive item like AV just to take Kyurem's attacks in the first place. So it may not always apply here. But Covert Cloak is a good item that has its uses. Before certain folks go off on me claiming they can't fit any of this or whatever, just try to keep an open mind. Sure, not every solution fits on every team. However, you also aren't automatically as much of a sitting duck to the Freeze RNGesus as some would have us believe.
Ultimately, the move that pushes Kyurem over the edge for me is DD. But NOT in like the traditional sense. I find you have to assume a special attacking set because that's where the massive immediate damage tends to come in. If it turns out to be just a pure physical set, you just switch in a physical wall to deal with it. Phase it out with Roar Zama or something. Once you know what it is, the physical sets have a harder time popping off without the surprise factor. This is why I was apathetic during the last suspect. I felt like you check the special wallbreaker and there are various ways to deal with a surprise DD physical set.
However, the issue is DD isn't just used for physical sets. It can be used for mixed sets. This means something like Dozo or Alomomola can't be a counter because it might still carry Freeze Dry. And for various other reasons, it tends to be difficult to use Unaware walls and many other traditional would be answers into the mixed sets. Then there are PP stalling sets, which are so heinous that they use the speed boost from DD for this. And then, a sub 100 base speed mon can suddenly outrun all the Encore mons. The way to counter each one of the types of DD sets alone can be entirely different.
Another issue I think has flown under the radar is Life Orb Kyurem. This allows you to get most of the damage from Choice Specs Kyurem while being able to switch moves, which is cracked. I know a lot of people don't like the chip of LO. But the thing is, any mon that would RK is probably gonna be able to KO or force Kyurem out anyways. And if you were worried about hazards, just run a team with proper hazard control. Like nobody runs specs Kyurem without proper antihazard support. LO should be no different. It is my opinion that this is harder to deal with than specs.
In general, the sheer amounts of sets Kyurem can run is very problematic to me because Kyurem's threat as a special wallbreaker already requires you to assume that it is. If it does something else, you really don't know if your team has a built in plan for that set. Scouting this mon is super dangerous because of DD. Freeze Dry invalidates all the bulky Water types. It seems unreasonable to me to require players to build for every viable Kyurem set and the rest of the metagame.
Sub/tect is uncompetitive cheese, but it's mostly manageable uncompetitive cheese. If half the set is dedicated to sub/tect, that leaves less available for other cheese. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't help that Kyurem can do this. It just adds to the set diversity headache. But this is probably the most overrated set right now. There is actually a lot of available counter play to it, and given time, I'm pretty sure the metagame could adapt. For example, it is shut down by Encore. There are also moves that can beat subs. Multi-hit moves like Dragon Darts and Tachyon Cutter both hit Kyurem super effectively and would likely only need one hit (barring Tera) to break the sub. Iron Crown can probably even take a Freeze Dry and outspeed it. Infiltrator can also bypass Subs, and a lot of special Pults run this. Then there are sound based moves. Psychic Noise is one of the most useful moves for its anti-healing properties. There are also Hyper Voice, Alluring Voice, and even Bug Buzz if you can viably find it. Although it has fallen off, Torch Song is also sound based if you can actually manage to find a decent Dirge team.
Now, about Freeze. There are certain moves like Scald that can unthaw you. Lum Berry isn't super common these days, but it can be run to avoid Burn or Paralyses. It also covers Freeze. You can also Tera Ice to take Kyurem's hits and avoid freezes. While Ice is normally a very bad defensive typing, it isn't into Kyurem. It wouldn't necesarrily be a bad situational Tera if you can combine it with some offense. Another thing you can do to stop Freeze fishing is Covert Cloak. I know, I know, sometimes you may need to carry a defensive item like AV just to take Kyurem's attacks in the first place. So it may not always apply here. But Covert Cloak is a good item that has its uses. Before certain folks go off on me claiming they can't fit any of this or whatever, just try to keep an open mind. Sure, not every solution fits on every team. However, you also aren't automatically as much of a sitting duck to the Freeze RNGesus as some would have us believe.
Ultimately, the move that pushes Kyurem over the edge for me is DD. But NOT in like the traditional sense. I find you have to assume a special attacking set because that's where the massive immediate damage tends to come in. If it turns out to be just a pure physical set, you just switch in a physical wall to deal with it. Phase it out with Roar Zama or something. Once you know what it is, the physical sets have a harder time popping off without the surprise factor. This is why I was apathetic during the last suspect. I felt like you check the special wallbreaker and there are various ways to deal with a surprise DD physical set.
However, the issue is DD isn't just used for physical sets. It can be used for mixed sets. This means something like Dozo or Alomomola can't be a counter because it might still carry Freeze Dry. And for various other reasons, it tends to be difficult to use Unaware walls and many other traditional would be answers into the mixed sets. Then there are PP stalling sets, which are so heinous that they use the speed boost from DD for this. And then, a sub 100 base speed mon can suddenly outrun all the Encore mons. The way to counter each one of the types of DD sets alone can be entirely different.
Another issue I think has flown under the radar is Life Orb Kyurem. This allows you to get most of the damage from Choice Specs Kyurem while being able to switch moves, which is cracked. I know a lot of people don't like the chip of LO. But the thing is, any mon that would RK is probably gonna be able to KO or force Kyurem out anyways. And if you were worried about hazards, just run a team with proper hazard control. Like nobody runs specs Kyurem without proper antihazard support. LO should be no different. It is my opinion that this is harder to deal with than specs.
In general, the sheer amounts of sets Kyurem can run is very problematic to me because Kyurem's threat as a special wallbreaker already requires you to assume that it is. If it does something else, you really don't know if your team has a built in plan for that set. Scouting this mon is super dangerous because of DD. Freeze Dry invalidates all the bulky Water types. It seems unreasonable to me to require players to build for every viable Kyurem set and the rest of the metagame.
This is the main issue. I've played against Kyu 6 times this week and Every Single Set was different. I know some mons will have variance in sets and calculating based on that is a massive part of the game, but I legit did not fucking face one that was the same. One used EP/Freeze Dry. Then had Tera Blast with Sub.
One was mixed. With fucking Dragon Claw and Ice beam.
Another was Subtect full on, seemed to be a weird def invested one no less.
Each and every time I'd try to form some contingency plan only to unfortunately not have future sight and end up being hit by the sheer surprise factor of it. If it was Just a SPA attacker; or Just a mixed attacker; Or just anything that you could readily prepare for it'd be far easier to deal with. But every single match against Kyu results in a guessing game that feels worse than Gouging, sure with Gouging you'd have to guess Tera/Moves but with Kyu its guessing entire play styles. And oops! if you guess wrong its over! Better luck next time kiddo. Obnoxious mon.
and what's so fucked about it is that you can't even use context clues because every set synergizes well with like 3 or 4 different archetypes and half of them overlap. normally when you see a mon with high set diversity you can be like "hmm, what's that zama on that balance team gonna do? ok, the rest of the structure is weak to setup mons x y and z so zama is probably running roar to counteract that" and then plan accordingly. but with kyurem it's like "hmm, what's that kyurem on that balance team gonna do? well, let me see, subtect works really well with those particular partners, so it's probably going to be that. unless it's specs, which also works really well to break these specific things that threaten the rest of that team. oh, but this team structure is fairly known and its damage output on the physical side is kinda meh so i should also watch out for mixed boots or ddance. except what if they decided to-" and on and on until you find out that psych bitch it was actually tera blast of the exact type that beats your team, ggs, game over, sorry not sorry, insert coin and try again. fuck this mon! nobody likes it. if kyurem had a mom she'd probably disown it, but we all know this motherfucker grew up without strong parental figures
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Not to produce a one liner but I didn't originally mention the Tera Blast in question, but it was Tera Blast Flying. What are we even doing here man cuz I lost to a Terablast Flying Kyurem because of course it just happened to be the exact match to kill 3 mons without a single flying fuck. I nearly lost to a Tera Bug Subtect set a couple weeks back. I legit do not think this thing can run a Tera Type and fail with it sometimes.
Late to reply to this but I also remember people posting about DLC1 Gliscor vs a Pecha-Trick Gholdengo set (not sure if that was pure meme but look at some of the stuff on this list).
Ironically this consists of two mons that I have the same assessment of: They're not broken/banworthy but I would not lose sleep over them vanishing from the tier either
I’ll still be running Tickle Mola. It counters every DD user that isn’t mixed Kyurem or tb electric Kyurem. speaking of, Kyurem suspect pls
In the words of Death Battle Joker: 'okay... THAT'S funny'
Exactly my thoughts on GFire and the up and coming Kyurem boot. I mentioned Gambit being a Tera sink, and a lot of... oxymoronically what little I'd faced of GFire were, alongside Gambit, so disproportionately more likely to Tera than anything else on a team these days (see also Raging Bolt, whom I'd oppose a ban for). Tera's from where I'm sitting are also more likely to come up in the mid-late game from what I can tell, which is why I kinda have to call out the replay posted by 658Greninja (the one where a Tera Ground Kyurem lead into Volt Switch iCrown and basically won) and ask "wait, who the hell leads Kyurem? And is this the only set that can do so viably?". This is not to downplay the severity to which two turns of wrong plays were this severely punished, or any perspective arguments for or against it... ok, maybe slightly that last one, as the replay in question I'd argue is somewhat of an oversimplification of the facts of the case... look, what I'm laboriously trying to get at is the strength of arguments here. And yes, that means more 'waffle with Uncle Joycap' - let me deconstruct my thought process:
Ever since my first ban, and seeing the extent to which power creep has throttled metas like this, I have been of the belief that the 'muh one guaranteed kill' argument has itself been dead for a while - because so much can do it: Iron Valiant can do it, several setup sweepers can do it (Kyurem is up for discussion for this reason, GFire was basically yeeted for same, RBolt can do it to a lesser extent, Roaring Moon is in and out of discussion etc.), and I've even been dicking around with Banded Tera Steel Great Tusk doing abjectly hilarious damage to bulkier teams, taking or even facilitating kills all the while. Hell, if you'd all cast your minds back to Chi-Yu meta, a lot of what I heard was talk of 'muh Specs Overheat in Sun' doing 90+% to Blissey of all mons, and being a delete button at the same time, but that was only one context out of many, and if that was the only reason for it's ban, we wouldn't have waited as long as it did for said QB (we had Scarf, NP and more)... and that's while consciously omitting the fact that you were forcing a pink blob on every single team, even on playstyles were it really shouldn't be.
If you couldn't tell by now, how 'fun' (or not) a meta can be is the topic of the day here - and I think that directly overlaps with how those kills are easier than ever, specifically because power creep has shifted it's focus more towards 'how can we facilitate these kills?' (Glimmora, CE Samurott-Hisui etc. / lack or removal this gen), and less around 'who finds these kills just by existing?'. You might think this entire post is rich coming from a guy who has spent half his time bitching about Salt Cure, but what you have to keep in mind is how skewed towards that former question the move in question truly is: by leaving it so the defensive profile of two of the best types in the game fundamentally cannot do their job when the rubber hits the road (read: my post comparing Shed Shell to Covert Cloak), be it bulky-ish offensive mons like Walking Wake or Gholdengo, fat staples like Alomomola or Dondozo, and... actually, not much of either type listed in this tier is really what I'd call 'frail', but I believe you get my point by now.
Tl;dr: set variety is a stronger argument than 'dur mon hit good', depending on what it facilitates.
I’m ngl, I don’t think anyone can defend subtect kyurem as competitive, the entire point of the set is to fish for freezes
Its still a great option, but it doesn’t feel completely required now atleast lol
i'm still physically and mentally recovering from that battle
I really dislike Kyurem and believe it was a huge mistake that it was allowed in the tier in the first place, but I agree that the council should wait before the next suspect. Between voter fatigue and meta changes, I would rather voters have a chance to see Kyurem be the most broken Mon in the tier for a little bit rather than vote DNB because they haven’t seen enough evidence.
I think it is not fair to say this given that it got a fair suspect last time and ended up with 58% of the vote — anything that competitive, even if it ends up banned later, is worth giving a chance just by default.
Apologies in advance for the mockery, but...
Finch... my brother in Christ...
You are making this far too easy for me...
Finch... my brother in Christ...
You are making this far too easy for me...