Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Eyy, any shot Serperior can arise again as a free buff from Pecharunt?
Also...


This was 2 pages ago and I wrote this.
Switching Serperior hard into Pecharunt is a risky proposition since it absolutely smacks you with Malignant Chain. If anything rises as an answer to Parting Shot spam I think it will probably Competitive Empoleon, as it can't be poisoned and doesn't really care about taking an unboosted Hex, and there's basically no opportunity cost to running it. Defiant Kingambit could potentially be an option, but if we find ourselves in a situation where Kingambit is giving up Supreme Overlord to run Defiant, I think a hard look into whether or not Pecharunt is healthy for the metagame would be in order.
 
If anything rises as an answer to Parting Shot spam I think it will probably Competitive Empoleon, as it can't be poisoned and doesn't really care about taking an unboosted Hex, and there's basically no opportunity cost to running it.
what about ghold? good as gold straight-up blocks parting shot, which leaves pecharunt in a really bad spot if it doesn't predict the switch-in correctly, and sometimes (in the case of bulkier ghold and uninvested, unboosted hex pecharunt) even if it does. now, of course ghold won't "rise" as an answer to parting shot spam because it physically can't rise much more already, but it serving as such a widespread check means that it's possible we won't see any specific pecharunt counterplay develop on a significant scale because it can be adequately dealt with by normal, existing team structures
 
what about ghold? good as gold straight-up blocks parting shot, which leaves pecharunt in a really bad spot if it doesn't predict the switch-in correctly, and sometimes (in the case of bulkier ghold and uninvested, unboosted hex pecharunt) even if it does. now, of course ghold won't "rise" as an answer to parting shot spam because it physically can't rise much more already, but it serving as such a widespread check means that it's possible we won't see any specific pecharunt counterplay develop on a significant scale because it can be adequately dealt with by normal, existing team structures
I feel like Ghold falls into a similar situation to Serp, where if the Pecharunt user predicts correctly and just clicks Hex you're in a bad spot. That said, Ghold is already an insanely good Pokemon in general so it's not like it's hard to fit onto most teams, and it will no doubt serve as an answer to Pecharunt in a lot of circumstances in practice.

I'm personally still skeptical that Pecharunt is going to warp the metagame to any significant degree anyways. I think it has potential as a Parting Shot user, but I would be very surprised if it ended up being top tier or forcing Kingambit to run Defiant or any of that. It hasn't felt THAT impactful so far for me, anyways.
 
what about ghold? good as gold straight-up blocks parting shot, which leaves pecharunt in a really bad spot if it doesn't predict the switch-in correctly, and sometimes (in the case of bulkier ghold and uninvested, unboosted hex pecharunt) even if it does. now, of course ghold won't "rise" as an answer to parting shot spam because it physically can't rise much more already, but it serving as such a widespread check means that it's possible we won't see any specific pecharunt counterplay develop on a significant scale because it can be adequately dealt with by normal, existing team structures
Gholdengo is far from a Pecharunt answer as the offensive Pecharunt sets outspeed and 2HKO (or even OHKO if Nasty Plot), and even the defensive ones can hit it hard.

For Kingambit it can run Tera Blast fighting, but then you gotta give up some move like Parting Shot / Nasty Plot / Recover

252 SpA Tera Fighting Pecharunt Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 460-544 (115 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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The confidence some of you have in writing off a mon that’s been out for five minutes is insane. Give Peachy time, there’s so many ways you can build this thing given the unique stat distribution.

I think Foul Play in general is such an underrated move. Running that alone means physical attackers can’t really afford to set up on it unless they want to take major damage. You could even go Tera Dark and then you’re flipping a number of your weaknesses and making FP more threatening. Toxic + confusion is basically a form of phasing (staying in confused is very rarely something you want to do imo), and Parting Shot on something with this bulk is a great opportunity for more fragile sweepers to get in and do some major damage, and it means poison immunes don’t get to switch in for free.

This mon can’t do everything and it’s likely outclassed if it tries to copy what other mons do, but it’s got some great traits and you should experiment with it properly before writing it off after doing 2 damage calcs. It’s got potential, most likely on balance builds.
 
The confidence some of you have in writing off a mon that’s been out for five minutes is insane. Give Peachy time, there’s so many ways you can build this thing given the unique stat distribution.

I think Foul Play in general is such an underrated move. Running that alone means physical attackers can’t really afford to set up on it unless they want to take major damage. You could even go Tera Dark and then you’re flipping a number of your weaknesses and making FP more threatening. Toxic + confusion is basically a form of phasing (staying in confused is very rarely something you want to do imo), and Parting Shot on something with this bulk is a great opportunity for more fragile sweepers to get in and do some major damage, and it means poison immunes don’t get to switch in for free.

This mon can’t do everything and it’s likely outclassed if it tries to copy what other mons do, but it’s got some great traits and you should experiment with it properly before writing it off after doing 2 damage calcs. It’s got potential, most likely on balance builds.
I think two pages is enough to say at the very least we most likely now how pecharunt is going to be. Yes, it has unique traits and can be quite solid. However, struggling with one of the best mons in the game and struggling against most other steel types is not the best. It has to have something unique to offer to the table, which it does have in confusion and physical bulk but it's poor movepool is really hurting it. There's only so much you can experiment on with that movepool. Plus, you said it yourself, if it tries to copy what other mons do it will be outclassed. Furthermore, it has to choose between being offensive or defensive, which both have major drawbacks.

It isn't the best, but it does have a niche. It can be great, but from my experiences, it can also fall flat. We haven't figured everything out, but you can get a general idea. Two pages have been spent discussing this mon, so there has been a lot of discussion about its viability.
 
I think the term is being cautiously pessimistic
I can understand this position a lot more but that’s definitely not how some people have spoken about it (admittedly I am catching up from a couple of pages back). There’s reason to be sceptical about it being an OU usage mon for sure, but it’s a bit early for writing it off as some posters have. It’s had less than a day on ladder and we’ve seen how well people innovate after being given some time. People were immediately saying Ursaluna Bloodmoon is outclassed by its Hisui counterpart at release and look how that turned out.

ahem? View attachment 591195
4:14PM to 9:42AM (at my time) is MORE THAN 5 MINS
Flawless logic, I stand corrected.
 
However, struggling with one of the best mons in the game and struggling against most other steel types is not the best.
I don’t feel this part is particularly accurate for the offensive Pecharunt sets. Gambit excluded, most Steel-types don’t particularly like switching in on 252 SpA Shadow Ball more than once, or at all in Gholdengo’s case, and the few that don’t mind are usually extremely fringe viability like Empoleon and Goodra-H. Bulkier Pecharunt sets do probably struggle with most steels though, but Magnezone is always there as a really good potential partner, especially since it can pivot directly into it.
 
I can understand this position a lot more but that’s definitely not how some people have spoken about it (admittedly I am catching up from a couple of pages back). There’s reason to be sceptical about it being an OU usage mon for sure, but it’s a bit early for writing it off as some posters have. It’s had less than a day on ladder and we’ve seen how well people innovate after being given some time. People were immediately saying Ursaluna Bloodmoon is outclassed by its Hisui counterpart at release and look how that turned out.
I think I've seen a lot more people trying to make it work than people who dismissed it. I don't say that the latter don't exist but so far I've seen more inquisitive approach than dismissive
 
I think I've seen a lot more people trying to make it work than people who dismissed it. I don't say that the latter don't exist but so far I've seen more inquisitive approach than dismissive
Fair, there definitely seems to be more of that as the conversation has progressed. The community is at it's best when it's like that imo, testing and building on one another's ideas and innovating.
 
I think I've seen a lot more people trying to make it work than people who dismissed it. I don't say that the latter don't exist but so far I've seen more inquisitive approach than dismissive
I'd say it's better to be pessimistic of a mon than optomistic, because it shows the real viability of a mon. If you can find the negatives of a mon, the positives are more standout. Undervaluing something leads to more creative solutions to be found to try to make those negatives less extreme. You can see this in Lando-T, where people constantly were pessimistic of it's viability because it competed a lot with tusk and gliscor. Thus, people found what other attributes it had over the other grounds, mainly it's special movepool, or other things I'm simply forgetting. If people simply said "these are it's positives", they may have tried physical sets that try to replicate the two better grounds, thus not noticing it's special movepool because it isn't too standout. The negatives of a mon can be used to further extract the positives, stuff like foul play on pecharunt is coming from the negative that if it wants to go defensive, it becomes a bit passive. You found the negative, and found something unique to turn it to a positive.
Or maybe I'm just coping/yapping because Lando-T will fall one day and I don't want another OU titan to drop to UU.
 
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I'd say it's better to be pessimistic of a mon than optomistic, because it shows the real viability of a mon. If you can find the negatives of a mon, the positives are more standout. Undervaluing something leads to more creative solutions to be found to try to make those negatives less extreme. You can see this in Lando-I, where people constantly were pessimistic of it's viability because it competed a lot with tusk and gliscor. Thus, people found what other attributes it had over the other grounds, mainly it's special movepool, or other things I'm simply forgetting. If people simply said "these are it's positives", they may have tried physical sets that try to replicate the two better grounds, thus not noticing it's special movepool because it isn't too standout. The negatives of a mon can be used to further extract the positives, stuff like foul play on pecharunt is coming from the negative that if it wants to go defensive, it becomes a bit passive. You found the negative, and found something unique to turn it to a positive.
Or maybe I'm just coping/yapping because Lando-I will fall one day and I don't want another OU titan to drop to UU.
Do you mean Lando-T or Lando-I? Because Lando-I is a different conversation and I don't wanna bring back the dropping Uber to OU discussion right now.
 
I'd say give the Peach about a week before we know it's full potential. That's about the amount of time it takes for a new to show off that isn't immediately broken.

That said, I most certainly wouldn't write it off. Kingambit is a check and counter to it In theory, but in practice Runt is always gonna Parting out, which lets you get in your Kingambit answer/setup sweeper.

Hell, if you really wanna be funny, you can just Tera Blast fighting it.
 
Couldn't make it before the thread got closed, so I'll say it here:
DaddyBuzzwole said:
to my knowledge, no pokemon has ever been banned from ou without being in the tier by usage (except for weird edge cases like wynaut and other mons that could only carry banned abilities at the time) and frankly i'm not sure whether that's even allowed
Not sure if there's OU precedent, but I vaguely remember there being a multi-tier discussion about a mon at some point of the Sw/Sh meta where it got suspected in a tier while being on a lower tier by usage. Was trying to find the Suspect thread on the Policy Review subforum for confirmation, but couldn't find it. If memory serves me right, I think it was Gengar in UU while it was RU by usage, and it got banned, but could be misremembering.

What I did find, though, is multiple threads made during the last years discussing Sleep and the Sleep Clause. Even excluding the half a dozen threads about RBY and BW, where sleep is uncontroversially broken, the frequency in which this topic is brought up without reaching any conclusion is ridiculous. And is made worse by many of these threads having comments already referencing even more past iterations of the same discussion.
I also found out in this process that, similarly to how Singles has the Sleep Clause, Doubles has a Sleep+Gravity Clause. I actually didn't know that.
Have we really spent the last 15+ years finding ridiculous workarounds to make Sleep feasible without banning it, only to still have to periodically discuss about it? Reading these threads has made me prefer a full ban on all Sleep Moves (except Rest), if only to simplify and end the topic.
Anyway, just wanted to remind all of this to the people that still think that Darkrai is the whole reason why Sleep was brought up and that "it was fine" up until now. I can understand people supporting Sleep moves staying, specially for "non-luck" moves like Spore and Yawn, but I cannot comprehend people arguing that "Darkrai is the problem" with sleep.

[2019]https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sleep-clause-in-generation-8.3648649/
[Yet another thread opened to discuss this. Noteworthy comment by Colonel M with links to 3 more threads from 2010 that were the start of Sleep Clause altogether, for those that want to view history themselves]
[Late 2019]https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sleep-clause-in-generation-8.3656311/
[Discussion brought up by a miscommunication problem, but caused an interesting discussion on the topic, with some sour notes here and there]
[Late 2021/Early 2022]https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/on-sleep-clause.3695183/
[The more recent one. Probably the most straightforward iteration of this discussion. Also shows the differences of opinion by tier/generation. Only problem was how each Gen had a completely different take on it]


[2021]https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/changing-gravity-sleep-clause-to-be-a-gravity-ban.3689934/
[Not relevant, since this is about doubles and Gravity, but still there if anyone wants to read it. I think it shows how far we have to go to "balance" sleep without banning it altogether, but again, this one is a Doubles thread and should be taken as so]
 

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