Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
No, council doesn’t regard this as a serious prospect. It would be all of the sleep moves.

For reference, I see this as similar to the council of a few generations ago pushing a Dugtrio suspect only for it to be forced to turn into Arena Trap when people had great success with Diglett.

I could use Dark Void with 10% less efficiency while still exploiting the same premise. Yes, it’s obviously less good, but you’re still encountering the same issue.
RIP Torkoal then, I guess. A fair sacrifice for the cause
 
Finch, do you view this as the most pressing issue in OU? I feel like while this is important it a sleep suspect/ban does not move the needle for the meta that much.
 
Roaring Moon probably. It’s the most straight forward of being suspect worthy Pokemon.
Gouging Fire Maybe. I see super strong calcs, but all of which require ton of support and for it to use CB instead of HDBs.
Roaring Moon and Kyurem gotta go

Gouging Fire isn't problematic due to being rocks weak and not impossible to check defensively unless it gets ample time to set up, in which case it can obliterate everything under sun, but because sun + ddance is a requirement for it to immediately doing funny numbers that kind of balances it out.
 
No, council doesn’t regard this as a serious prospect. It would be all of the sleep moves.

For reference, I see this as similar to the council of a few generations ago pushing a Dugtrio suspect only for it to be forced to turn into Arena Trap when people had great success with Diglett.

I could use Dark Void with 10% less efficiency while still exploiting the same premise. Yes, it’s obviously less good, but you’re still encountering the same issue.
I feel an argument can be made for keeping Yawn, since it works differently mechanically and avoids the uncompetitive elements of the other sleep moves because the counterplay is consistent. I mean, Perish Song is legal despite the OHKO moves being banned, and I feel like this is a similar situation.
 
Not remotely broken rn
This crazy in comparison to the first week or so of the metagame. Happy he's settled down and the other kids on the playground have learned to tolerate him throwing nuclear warheads ❤

Uh... anyone using Slither Wing? I am! It's fun to throw it onto sun even if Triceratops-Entei outclasses it. I just like leaving a... first impression.
 
Maybe we should start excising the problems from the format so it can be both balanced and fun to play!
Imo its quite fun. Lots of different viable strategies and mons are playable. Its true HO and balance seem to benefit from this meta but isnt this good? It likely needs some tweeks but its A LOT healthier and more diverse than before DLC2

HO and Balance means shorter games, which often means more fun. Unlike more bulky strategies and stall that often force longer game of constantly walling the opponent.

Also seems Tera is going to stay? I feel people like Tera now more than ever and most of the time you can play around it. It also adds some nice strategy flexibility and surprises which are imo healthy. Most people has already learnt how it works and how to play around it, and 90% of the time its somewhat predictable. Also gives mons that would have some struggles a bigger chances of making it into to the tier.
 
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An argument can be made that TOO much stuff is viable rn, making the metagame very matchup fishy. Answering all of Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Gouging, etc on the same team while not losing to other stuff like Gliscor, Arch Rain, or Deo-S is hard. But, I feel that has always been an issue and there is still room to play around these strategies, though perhaps less so against rain and sun.

Even dealing with hazard stack has room to be played around by exerting enough pressure to stop gliscor or whatever from setting up hazards in the first place.

Gen 9 I think is also highlighting the importance of "1 free turn" more than any other generation, which is exacerbated by Tera. Guessing incorrectly vs a threat like Valiant often can mean death even if you have it covered on paper. Tera lets Pokemon like these run far more viable sets in the past and makes it so there is a legit use case for niche options like Liquidation. That being said, Tera is also important in taking away that "1 free turn" by interrupting a mon in its sweep and the like + can pave the way for new defensive options in a match.

I'm not really making any sweeping statements here, just pointing out some observations lol.
 
An argument can be made that TOO much stuff is viable rn, making the metagame very matchup fishy. Answering all of Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Gouging, etc on the same team while not losing to other stuff like Gliscor, Arch Rain, or Deo-S is hard. But, I feel that has always been an issue and there is still room to play around these strategies, though perhaps less so against rain and sun.

Even dealing with hazard stack has room to be played around by exerting enough pressure to stop gliscor or whatever from setting up hazards in the first place.

Gen 9 I think is also highlighting the importance of "1 free turn" more than any other generation, which is exacerbated by Tera. Guessing incorrectly vs a threat like Valiant often can mean death even if you have it covered on paper. Tera lets Pokemon like these run far more viable sets in the past and makes it so there is a legit use case for niche options like Liquidation. That being said, Tera is also important in taking away that "1 free turn" by interrupting a mon in its sweep and the like + can pave the way for new defensive options in a match.

I'm not really making any sweeping statements here, just pointing out some observations lol.
While I do agree with the statement that when too much is viable it could be problematic, I don't think this is the case right now. Simply because the answers to mons are overlapping. Great tusk for example, can take on gholdengo, kingambit and raging bolt just off the top of my head. However, because these mons can overlap, they don't always appear on the same team, which reduces the strain the answers have to perform. Only stuff like kyurem and potentially moon for me is problematic because the answers are so out of the way that they don't do as well into the rest of the metagame, combined that their sets can change their answers easily.
TLDR, agree with the viable statement, but don't think it is applicable to this metagame.
 
Imo its quite fun. Lots of different viable strategies and mons are playable. Its true HO and balance seem to benefit from this meta but isnt this good? It likely needs some tweeks but its A LOT healthier and more diverse than before DLC2

HO and Balance means shorter games, which often means more fun. Unlike more bulky strategies and stall that often force longer game of constantly walling the opponent.

Also seems Tera is going to stay? I feel people like Tera now more than ever and most of the time you can play around it. It also adds some nice strategy flexibility and surprises which are imo healthy. Most people has already learnt how it works and how to play around it, and 90% of the time its somewhat predictable. Also gives mons that would have some struggles a bigger chances of making it into to the tier.
look all I'm saying is that if the metagame becomes awful and volatile because we remove roaring moon, we should remove roaring moon and then fix the metagame. roaring moon has to go either way so just rip the bandaid off and remove the other problems too
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
Banning sleep moves is hilarious to me, what are we exactly trying to do? Forcing the game to become as skillful as possible by removing and manipulating people’s experience with rng to jump on the banwave? Rng is a part of pokemon, it’s what makes it exciting to watch, it is the charm of competitive pokemon.

If you wanna ban sleep moves then go ahead and ban para moves as well then, i’d argue that’s way less skill and rng based than sleep in and of itself.

Also:

I swear these banwaves of items, moves and strategies has no end in sight, there’s always something new, it’s obsessive behaviour and at some point we’ll just kill singles 6v6. In the end it’s gonna end up becoming 100-200+ turn games with absolutely no x factor, and considering how ou has been the last 10 years it’s annoying enough with 100+ turn games with rng at play due to suspects and bans favoring balance teams in general.
Tell me what your opinion on Sleep would be when it can sleep your entire team in a row (which is how it should be working unless we make up some other clause, sleep mod clause is a bullshit addition by being a mod"
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
lando and pex weren't really power crept rather than actively nerfed. they used to be better than the very mons who are supplanting them now, but those mons got new options, and lando and pex only lost theirs. the real poster kid of power creep to me will always be poor garchomp and its "having specifically 102 speed makes it too much to deal with" to "102 speed? midddd" journey.
nah I think Gliscor would have kinda dunked on Lando T in gen 8

Lando T half the time with that spdef shit was basically being fake Gliscor anyways, imagine a SWSH Lando T that can heal, can't be statused, gains 12% a turn. Yeah Intimidate, but a lot of the mons it was pivoting on were mixed or special.

Like, in SWSH I literally click Scald as Lando T clicks EQ, live, burn it, and now any time it comes in even with rocks it's losing health. You can cope and say "yeah well it doesn't need to live the entire game" which is true, but like. Imagine if it just didn't die. I think Gliscor in Gen 8 would have dunked on Lando T easily no way about it.

I think Pex is much more a case of being nerfed. Scald let it pivot more or punish switch ins which it caused a lot of. In Gen 9 you switch into a mon, and then you can't really do anything. AV Pex kinda did something but that isn't nearly as consistent obviously, ESPECIALLY when hazard meta became even better. That set has fake ass Regen now.
 
So after my Darkrai review, I decided I really liked the team. I changed Darkrai to Tinkaton and I gotta say, Thunder Waving and Encoring Gholdengo makes me happy. It’s up there with Freezing an opponent with Ice Beam.
 
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Finchinator , sorry for tagging you but I just realized something. Will the survey cover in its options the possibility of removing Sleep Clause and then only banning some but not every sleeping-related move? I can see a case for banning Hypnosis, Spore etc due to their wide distribution and ease of afflicting the condition, but letting Yawn and Relic Song, Dire Claw etc to be kept around. Like, surely a Clauseless metagame could deal with Torkoal spamming Yawn, right?
IMG_6083.jpeg

this is how sleep moves clause was implemented in bw—direct sleep moves and yawn are banned, but stuff like effect spore and relic song are allowed to stay. i presume it's going to work the same way for this gen, since it's the same clause. as for yawn, i fully understand the sentiment behind keeping it, but i think it's highly likely to create far more problems than it solves in a meta with unclaused sleep, so i believe the best move is tossing it out with the rest of them
 

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