Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Kingambit: 2
Still not fond of Supreme Overlord, and can understand why people hate playing the Sucker Punch game with their life on the line, but I don't think he's even problematic anymore. Wouldn't be opposed to a suspect if it garners enough hatred, but I'd convincingly vote No Ban on it, which makes it a 2 for me.
As for King Gambit, could we ban Supreme Overlord if needed?
 
If that was true there would've been a Paralysis Clause set in place since Gen 5. Get your slippery slope arguments out of here.
bit of a correction, sleep moves clause was added to gen 5 fairly recently, in 2019 if i've got my dates right. before that it had sleep clause still. but all that being said, you're still right, this is a bad case of the slippery-slope fallacy and there's no evidence to suggest that we'll go any further than sleep moves clause in terms of status/rng bans in the foreseeable future. no other rng element is even remotely problematic enough to consider for tiering action
 
If that was true there would've been a Paralysis Clause set in place since Gen 5. Get your slippery slope arguments out of here.
Okay, Imma put my tinfoil hat on. If we ban sleep, then para will be banned. People will think "shit, status may be overpowered". Thus, burn will be banned. Which moves can causes status? Electric and fire type moves. Thus, we ban every one of those moves. We wouldn't stop there. We would ban every electric/fire type mon. To stop the water/ground/rock types from getting overpowered, we would ban those too. We would then have to ban the types that benefit from their removal, and so on until there are no mons left. Of course, gambit and ghold would be spared because they will never be banned because Smogon loves them.
 
bit of a correction, sleep moves clause was added to gen 5 fairly recently, in 2019 if i've got my dates right. before that it had sleep clause still. but all that being said, you're still right, this is a bad case of the slippery-slope fallacy and there's no evidence to suggest that we'll go any further than sleep moves clause in terms of status/rng bans in the foreseeable future. no other rng element is even remotely problematic enough to consider for tiering action
This implies that sleep is problematic enough to consider for tiering action, which I'm of the opinion it isn't. Which is my point. Banning Para would be stupid, so would banning sleep.
 
No, we would need multiple game-breaking Pokemon for supreme overlord to be on the table.
why is that though, we could talk about this elsewhere if needed. It’s not an “evidence” issue. It’s easy to understand what Supreme Overlord does. It’s not directly based on the properties of the ability either, simply having other broken Pokémon existing with the ability or not would decide a ban
 

CobsonYaoi

formerly Holesum420
bit of a correction, sleep moves clause was added to gen 5 fairly recently, in 2019 if i've got my dates right.
Oh sorry mb.
This implies that sleep is problematic enough to consider for tiering action, which I'm of the opinion it isn't. Which is my point. Banning Para would be stupid, so would banning sleep.
It is though. It's already being held back by a mod that goes against modern tiering policy.
 
why is that though, we could talk about this elsewhere if needed. It’s not an “evidence” issue. It’s easy to understand what Supreme Overlord does. It’s not directly based on the properties of the ability either, simply having other broken Pokémon existing with the ability or not would decide a ban
Because supreme overlord is a key part of gambit's design. If other mons got it, yes, we could ban it, but right now banning the ability would be taking away a key part of gambit's design, which isn't what we should do. The mon right now is connected to that ability, so we should ban the mon entirely if we wanted a ban.
 
I agree with everything here except with garg and Roaring Moon. Garg forced the tier to run Covert cloak on a variety of mons, and was difficult to deal with offensively. The only reason it fell off is because the options used to deal with it happen to also be effective vs Kingambit sucker punch games. Despite the adaptations it still is viable and able to win games due to its curse set, ability and general bulk. Roaring moon I'm not sure of because dd uses tera and cb hasn't seen much use recently. I could see it being problematic but I'm not sold.
Roaring Moon has knock off so even if you can't tera with it DD is still a fucking menace. Garg forced the tier to run covert cloak for the first 4 months of the format and then answers to garg appeared and it has not been banworthy since. Garg is a good pokemon, and while Salt Cure is one of the most annoying moves ever, it's not banworthy anymore. A setup special attacker (i.e. h-zoro with grass knot) is insane against a garg team because their donbozo doesn't wanna take that knot either
 
Hi everyone; I wanted to make a quick post with three sets I've been running on Showdown (which runs surprisingly well on my phone given my phone's propensity for flying off the handle the last year or two) as I haven't been able to post much for the last few days due to a string of really chaotic and unfortunate circumstances that I won't go further into detail on beyond "US insurance companies suck." For those wondering, my position on sleep is still "ban sleep" and my position on tera is still "don't ban tera."

:wo chien:
Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Giga Drain/Substitute/Taunt​

Wo Chien has been one of the most underutilized Pokemon throughout SV since day one - it's, in my opinion, the best Leech Seed user in OU right now. It blanks attacks from both sides of the spectrum thanks to 85/100/135 bulk in conjunction with its ability Tablets of Ruin which lowers the power of physical attackers, and it has stupendous defensive typing giving it fantastic resistances to Ground, Ghost, Water, Grass, Electric, and Dark-type attacks along with a handy Psychic immunity. I've been primarily using it on SemiStall builds partnered with Pecharunt, Archaludon (by the way, this Wo-Chien set can potentially handle Rain Archaludon), and Glowking.
252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 133-157 (35.6 - 42%) -- 88.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 198-234 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 123-145 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 8.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 110-130 (29.4 - 34.8%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 66-78 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

Speaking of Pecharunt...

:pecharunt:
Pecharunt @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Night Shade
- Recover
- Malignant Chain​

I love this Pokemon, and I've been using different variants on a variety of teams. This set is one I've been trying specifically to muscle through problematic boosting cores while still being able to outspeed threats such as Great Tusk. Night Shade's fixed damage in tandem with Malignant Chain + Poison Puppeteer's status-happy fun time allows Pecharunt to break through threats that could otherwise win against it over time such as Calm Mind Raging Bolt. Parting Shot and Recover are the continual bread and butter of this set, and aren't going to go out of style any time soon.

:archaludon:
Archaludon @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Dragon Tail
- Protect
- Light Screen

I've been using variants of this set since the first day of SV DLC2 OU, and I've settled on the Light Screen variant being my absolute favorite. I've continued to clean entire games with this set alone thanks to its continued unwavering longevity and newly self-sufficient special bulk without the pain of Assault Vest forcing you to only use offensive moves + forcing you to forgo passive recovery. I've worked with Electro Shot and other Arch variants, and none of them have put in work for me like this set has. This Archaludon set is my #1 favorite set in the OU meta as of right now, and that's unlikely to change.
 
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Roaring Moon has knock off so even if you can't tera with it DD is still a fucking menace. Garg forced the tier to run covert cloak for the first 4 months of the format and then answers to garg appeared and it has not been banworthy since. Garg is a good pokemon, and while Salt Cure is one of the most annoying moves ever, it's not banworthy anymore. A setup special attacker (i.e. h-zoro with grass knot) is insane against a garg team because their donbozo doesn't wanna take that knot either
Garg isn’t banworthy anymore????? Where did this news come from after a year of whining about it. Welcome home Garg!!!!
 
Gonna try to make this clear one more time. What I just bolded is entirely different from agreeing to not bringing certain mons/moves to the battle. Agreements to make specific plays and actions DURING THE BATTLE are bad, they go against the spirit of competitive play. If the objectively correct play for me is to Spore again while I am Encore'd into it, why in the world would I agree to not make the objectively correct play?

Rules to not bring xyz to the battle is completely different from rules to not make certain plays in battle. If you think the difference here doesn't matter, I'm not sure what else to say.


1) Weaker sleep abusers (Unova Lilligant) won't be a problem until the stronger ones are banned, and banning the stronger ones is the worse course of action to begin with.
2) Sleep abusers don't have to be overwhelmingly powerful for sleep to be worth banning.

I think 2) is really lost in the discussion sometimes. "Uuh I'm not winning every game with this, just accept the rng bros it's not even that good!" Is missing the entire point. Aislinn posted here about her experiences laddering and note that she broke even in elo! The important takeaway is that this mechanic just lets you bypass counterplay by rolling the dice, with very reasonable odds of success, not what it's overpowered or will win every game.



I think council using discretion at times is good! Even though ursaluna-BM got a low survey score, they were smart enough to get a suspect test going anyway, and they were completely justified in doing so. This can backfire at times (volcarona qb), but by and large what the track record shows is that surveys strongly guide council actions but don't bind them, and that's good. If we didn't value council discretion, there wouldn't be any need for a council at all, we would just have 1 guy putting up surveys and systematically deciding to qb or suspect accordingly. I'm sure that's appealing to some, but I don't love that idea, I think it would take too long at times to kick obviously unhealthy elements out of the tier. I think council has made way more good decisions than bad this gen, and I'd like to keep their discretion in the picture for the time.

With regards to tera, I will quote myself from the past

Tera ban aint gonna happen anytime soon, no matter how uncompetitive you or I think it is, so I'd rather wait it out to see if community support waxes or wanes depending on meta development. If you're on the ban tera team, then our best move is to wait and see how many pokemon make themselves banworthy thanks to tera. Only if we see a ton of bans happen will we have enough evidence to make the case again. There will not be a 3rd tera suspect test, make the 2nd one count.

Anyways I'm beggin yall to vote 5 on sleep go team go.
I lost a game to Hypnosis Bronzong... a shitmon with a sleep move being able to win a game for you through rng isn't competitive. I think sleep should go
 
I love how everyone is just running Water Absorb Clodsire just to counter Tera Water Volcarona...
no one runs tera water volcarona. people are running water absorb clodsire because it works well against rain teams, walking wake, and other stall teams—pex, mola, and dozo all get memed on by it because even though it can't do much to them they also can't do anything to it
 

:pecharunt:
Pecharunt @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Night Shade
- Recover
- Malignant Chain​

I love this Pokemon, and I've been using different variants on a variety of teams. This set is one I've been trying specifically to muscle through problematic boosting cores while still being able to outspeed threats such as Great Tusk. Night Shade's fixed damage in tandem with Malignant Chain + Poison Puppeteer's status-happy fun time allows Pecharunt to break through threats that could otherwise win against it over time such as Calm Mind Raging Bolt. Parting Shot and Recover are the continual bread and butter of this set, and aren't going to go out of style any time soon.
Night Shade as a response to special walls is an intriguing adaptation, as well as not needing any SpA investment. Might have to try that one. Does the Malignant Chain damage hold up with no SpA investment? If you're fishing for toxic procs, I feel like Toxic is just more reliable outside of Hatterene and Clefable. Also I might be worried that no Shadow Ball or Hex means Gholdengo is a completely free switch-in, but I guess that matchup was always going to be rough.

Also, what are your entry points for Pecharunt? I was running a fast set, and it feels so awkward to switch in without an Air Balloon or a death. Its weaknesses all being common attacking types and Psychic while having mostly uncommon resistances feels really bad even with some investment into bulk.

This is the set I used in my testing (except I gave it Boots instead of Balloon for that specific team).

Pecharunt @ Air Balloon
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 92 HP / 132 SpA / 32 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain
- Hex
- Parting Shot
- Recover
 
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Mr. Lokix, I believe you forgot the Choice Spec.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Bug Lokix: 357-420 (126.1 - 148.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

#HaHaHaHaHaDon’tMockAmpharos’SuperiorityInOU
Lokix outspeeds, guaranteeing death for the poor hairless sheep as the Lokix valiantly makes a First Impression!

But...

Must the two fight?
The two are not so different.
The Choice Items... on the correct side, incredibly powerful. On the incorrect side, near useless...
The Effort Values... both pokemon focusing intense effort into their might ... yet sheer force of will alone can only do so much...
Their Nature... the very essence of incredible potential, instilled into them... but all virtues are balanced by vices...
Alone, incomplete. But combined... What power we could hold! That mystical force, that unstoppable potency, that untamble beast: VoltTurn!
No wall is safe against the might of the sheer power of Ampharos, and no offense can hold against the speed and inevitability of Lokix!
With this power, one could become a god! We could take over the Smogon website! We could raze the OU tier to the ground! We could finally land a focus blast!
Thus I, blessed with this knowledge, have used the incredible skill possessed by me in the ancient art of teambuilding!
https://pokepast.es/6bb4d20ae48ee23b

(seriously though, building this team was the most fun with pokemon I've had in a very long time. Ampharos is surprisingly decent, if completely outclassed by raging bolt, and Lokix is a joy as always. I was thinking about building a UU team too, as Lokix is actually really good there, but I wanted to remain committed to the bit. If you have any improvements please share!)
 

Srn

The Monstrous Bird of New England
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Moderator
Folks...
Mimikyu Stardust's HO team (which is an OU room sample btw) (RMT) runs Tera Water Volcarona.
It's a great set, covering your water weakness and still hitting fire types that otherwise wall you like Heatran and Skeledirge.

If anything, I rarely see WA Clodsire anymore. It's got worse matchups into Serperior, Gholdengo, Hatterene, Darkrai, etc. Unaware Clodsire is better overall into Volcarona to begin with...
 
Water Absorb Clodsire was already being used before Volc came in, and who the FUCK is running Tera Water Volc? Clodsire should be worrying about Tera Ground more than anything.
I run Tera Water to counter Rain teams; I see Clod and think it's just Unaware and get reversed Uno'd into it being Water Absorb.

This has happened twice today.

ⓘ Readers added context: no one is doing this and there is zero reason to use Clod without unaware in DLC2
It's pretty good against rain teams actually.
 
Lokix outspeeds, guaranteeing death for the poor hairless sheep as the Lokix valiantly makes a First Impression!

But...

Must the two fight?
The two are not so different.
The Choice Items... on the correct side, incredibly powerful. On the incorrect side, near useless...
The Effort Values... both pokemon focusing intense effort into their might ... yet sheer force of will alone can only do so much...
Their Nature... the very essence of incredible potential, instilled into them... but all virtues are balanced by vices...
Alone, incomplete. But combined... What power we could hold! That mystical force, that unstoppable potency, that untamble beast: VoltTurn!
No wall is safe against the might of the sheer power of Ampharos, and no offense can hold against the speed and inevitability of Lokix!
With this power, one could become a god! We could take over the Smogon website! We could raze the OU tier to the ground! We could finally land a focus blast!
Thus I, blessed with this knowledge, have used the incredible skill possessed by me in the ancient art of teambuilding!
https://pokepast.es/6bb4d20ae48ee23b

(seriously though, building this team was the most fun with pokemon I've had in a very long time. Ampharos is surprisingly decent, if completely outclassed by raging bolt, and Lokix is a joy as always. I was thinking about building a UU team too, as Lokix is actually really good there, but I wanted to remain committed to the bit. If you have any improvements please share!)
Finally, I have turned one to the truth of Ampharos in OU. Majestic! Beautiful! Absolutely no one realizes how strong she is (my beloved Ampharos in HGSS is a Female) and the entirety of her coverage.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 374-442 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Raging Bolt outclasses Ampharos? Not to be?! Can Raging Bolt run coverage for Iron Treads like Ampharos! I say nay!


About that team, what is going on with those EVs?
 
Finally, I have turned one to the truth of Ampharos in OU. Majestic! Beautiful! Absolutely no one realizes how strong she is (my beloved Ampharos in HGSS is a Female) and the entirety of her coverage.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 374-442 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Raging Bolt outclasses Ampharos? Not to be?! Can Raging Bolt run coverage for Iron Treads like Ampharos! I say nay!


About that team, what is going on with those EVs?
He obviously needs the 2 attack on clefable and 1 hp + 1 defense on lokix. Otherwise the team wouldn't work.
 

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