Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Hey there. There's a difference between discussing sleep and other aspects of the meta, and just spend several pages discussing about who got the post with the most likes in this discussion. Lets try to stop with the latter.

Another topic in the survey is Deoxys-Speed. How have you been feeling about it? Have you seen 4 Atks, NP, or double hazards sets recently? I personally like this set from vk's Darkrai HO the most

:sv/deoxys-speed:
Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt​
I don't really like the mon, feels a bit frail and all it ever really does in my opinion is set up hazards, but there is a set I would like to try:


Deoxys-Speed @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Stealth Rock/Spikes
- Superpower
- Psycho Boost
- Taunt

It's experimental, but the idea is that you can tech out against Samurott-Hisui. Here's some relevant calcs:
252+ Atk Deoxys-Speed Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 280-330 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Kill confirmed with rocky helmet)
252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 218-260 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Free spike after)
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 306-360 (117.2 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Rip)
252+ Atk Deoxys-Speed Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 192-226 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Chip)
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 127-151 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO (Catch the rocks on the taunt, predict they won't get them up, or if you get the roll, you can get a free superpower off)
0 SpA Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glimmora: 344-408 (112 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Good)
252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 80 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Speed: 160-189 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Taunt into psycho boost is a trade)
252+ Atk Deoxys-Speed Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 252-298 (89.6 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Could be good to revenge kill or lead to get your damage and sleep sack)

This set would theoretically allow you to at least be neutral against most hazard leads. You lose to opposing Deoxys-Speeds, but that matchup is honestly kinda wack anyways (speed tie reliant). If you have something to beat Deoxys leads, the only lead you really have to worry about then is booster Treads (which you lose to anyways tbh, this one even does better anyways by chipping it down), but you beat some of the most common hazard leads in the game this way. Close combat could be nice for chipping down Ting-Lu as well after you taunt and get up your hazards. Psycho boost is the obvious move of choice, hits Glimmora pretty hard, like if you taunt and then psycho boost, you can deny hazards. Also, you can revenge kill Darkrai or you can chip it down and then go into an answer to it to kill it.

The EVs also provide a specific purpose. 80 HP means that you live a Samurott-Hisui sucker punch and always go 1 for 1 (or they miss and you get free spike or rocks). 252 Atk with a naughty nature (+Atk, -Spd) means that you can get Samurott-Hisui in range of rocky helmet (really sad I know, regular old 252 atk only has a 69% chance of succeeding because superpower is a roll to get within 16% for helmet). 176 Spe allows you to outspeed everything unboosted (except for a Deoxys-Speed of their own) up to a scarf Gholdengo (in theory, I'm pretty sure it has 439 speed because it rounds down the speed, could be wrong though, this one hits 440).

Ideally, I think you could use this mon on a fast-paced offense team that enjoys having hazards off. You could pair it with something like a speed booster utility/bulk up Great Tusk (can even kill the aforementioned lead Darkrai) and your 4 mons of choice. Maybe you could use some life orb mons like a scale shot 3 attack Kyurem with a life orb. Could be some cool ideas using this mon.
 
This is the first time this gen where a ban announcement by Finch hasn't been immediately obvious as to what it's going to be. Its def not Gambit or Ghold because both are too contentious to get anything but a suspect, while Deo-S is generally seen as healthy and Archaludon hasn't been on the radar for long enough to warrant a QB. Imo it's most likely Sleep or Kyurem, but Moon or Gfire wouldn't be overly surprising.
 
If it’s sleep being banned that would really be a shame.

Slightly reducing viability of pokemon that use spore, yawn and sleep powder, in an effort to preserve darkrai in OU.


and we all know plenty of things are inherently uncompetitive, such as stone miss, focus miss, paralysis, sleep, double iron flinch, etc.

the argument was always that it needed to make multiple pokemon uncompetitive. This is why moody and minimise are unconditionally banned.

so it’s a shame that banning sleep is on the cards because sleep clause isn’t enough, apparently.

This is different to kings rock. Kings rock was the last time a ban violated smogon principles. The reason no one cared because kings rock was otherwise useless on non-skill link.

Just thoughts…
 
You know, I wonder, if sleep is banned this gen, would it carry on to the next gen or would we have to revert it and then review it again at some point later in the gen? Sort of like how in Gen 8, arena trap was unbanned but then ultimately banned again.
 
You know, I wonder, if sleep is banned this gen, would it carry on to the next gen or would we have to revert it and then review it again at some point later in the gen? Sort of like how in Gen 8, arena trap was unbanned but then ultimately banned again.
I imagine it depends on what logic the council uses for the ban, should this be sleep.
For example, if the council bans it due to finding sleep even with clause uncompetitive, it could be re-reviewed. but if the council finds the clause incompatible with current policy, I'd suspect it won't get undone without some change to the status' mechanic
 
so what is the reason for gholdengo being even remotely considered for a ban? i get that its because it invalidates hazard removal and makes stall a worse playstyle, but why does that matter? as far as i know, smogon's basic ideology is "uncompetitive means the better player doesnt mostly win", and i just dont see how that has anything to do with certain playstyles being good or bad in the meta.

why is there an expectation that certain strategies must be viable and all playstyles must be viable? when generations change, certain things just get better or worse, and i dont see the problem with that. yestergeneration's premier playstyle could be this generation's niche, thats how it has been for things like weather (from gen 5 to following gens), for spikes+phazing spam (from gen 3 to following gens), and now with hazard removal (from gen 8 to current gen). different strategies and playstyles being viable doesnt necessarily mean one meta is less competitive than the other, they can be just as skill-based.

i do get why so many people of the general public want gholdengo banned, its not for the sake of competitiveness but for the sake of fun, people want to enjoy their favourite playstyles in the current gen and dont like certain strategies being invalidated, they want a varied meta, but variety is not necessarily what smogon considers when tailoring a format, and fun even less so, due to how subjective it is. i mean, if you ask me, hazard removal is not fun to play with or against and gholdengo therefore makes the game more fun, but thats beside the point.

so... are gholdengo and its enabling of hazard stacking actually uncompetitive in some form that im missing? is there an actual necessity for every major playstyle to be equally as viable, for competitiveness's sake? or does smogon have something more that they consider important besides just competitiveness? if the answers to all of these questions are "no", then i cant see a reason to seriously consider a gholdengo ban.
Tbh, I think Gholdengo's enabling of hazard stacking is overrated as hell. The issue is that Gliscor / Ting-lu / Skarm / Samurott just have way too easy of a time setting up hazards and winning the long game vs our removal with Knock Off Support + general spinblockers. I've been using Helmet Pecharunt and spinners have a hard time spinning against this mon too!. There is a reason that most hazard stacks don't even need Ghold and that's cause other ghost can do a similar job vs our removal.

Corviknight is a good remover vs non Ghold teams, but even it gets chipped too easily by rocks + can struggle to get that "free turn" to launch off a Defog in the face of strong offensive threats. Mandibuzz admitting can be annoying with Defog, but that mon just loses to Gliscor's clown ass, giving it free poison healing + getting destroyed by Knock / Toxic.

Gholdengo's offensive profile in general is kinda cracked and like Gliscor, it is very good at winning the long game. However, unlike Gliscor, it's put into losing positions a bit to easily and forced to Tera in order to meaningfully threaten certain mons. The more passive a structure, the stronger dengo is, but it will struggle against more offensive builds imo.

As long as people blame gholdengo for hazard issues, I think it will always be on surveys, unfortunately. Thankfully, us Gholdengo enjoyers can keep up the good fight against big stall and continue voting 1! If not that, thrn pushing for a closer look at Gliscor and HSam, which imo are the two most cancerous spikers.
 
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