Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Yeah let's just focus on Kyruem, Lugia has never been tested in an OU metagame so it's all fearmongering and speculation at the end of the day.

Now is probably not the time to test it anyway.
 
Let's calc some sets which are solely made to kill Ting-Lu.
+1 252+ SpA Tera Ice Lugia Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 236-278 (45.9 - 54%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
+1 252+ SpA Tera Water Lugia Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 236-278 (45.9 - 54%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Boom. It switches in, it tanks one, it whirlwinds Lugia, it is low. Very.
Or...
+1 252+ SpA Tera Water Lugia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 288-338 (56 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
well ting lu is not gonna be able to do that a lot of times, and lugias bulk will just allow it to switch in again, recover, calm mind up and ham away with stored power when the time is right. lugia is too op for ou, 154 spdef with 130 defense and 105 hp is not balanced with reliable recovery lmao.
 
I've played a lot of games, and yea it feels like HO is just the dominant playstyle.

And it's not just because of one specific mon either, the whole meta is fucked with how powerful shit is now.
 
well ting lu is not gonna be able to do that a lot of times, and lugias bulk will just allow it to switch in again, recover, calm mind up and ham away with stored power when the time is right. lugia is too op for ou, 154 spdef with 130 defense and 105 hp is not balanced with reliable recovery lmao.
that was my whole point... read the quote chain
Can we not drop any Ubers please, and just do metagame discussion? That's literally the name of this thread, cmon.
 

Finchinator

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"Limited support" seems misleading. If the lowest score is 1, then the average is 3, not 2.5. Archaludon is literally below average (and getting failing grades in the general vote), unless there's an upwards trend in the latest surveys then it seems pretty ok for a top-tier mon. Unless you noticed a higher rate of 5s compared to the other mons?
For context, it has the same score Ursaluna Bloodmoon did during DLC1. We then suspected it and within 2 weeks it was banned via >95%. The vibe is not this extreme around Archaludon of course, but even during the weekend Arch was close to a 2 for the first day and over a 3 for the second day. Look at the wave of Arch Rain right now and it is telling. We will continue to monitor it.
 
glad to see the OU forums up to it's old tricks (derogatory)
Anyways, meaningless discussion about dropping ubers aside, how do you all feel about the meta now since sleep has been banned? What sticks out to you as particularly good or unhealthy in this new caffeinated metagame?
 
SV OU Tiering Survey results ar now live: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-9947296

Enjoy discussion of these results and the larger metagame while adhering to the parameters mentioned in TPP's post above. Thanks
Now that the demonic presence of sleep is gone (I've wanted it gone since before the DLCs, I'm glad it was finally removed), we can start looking at the metagame's potent aspects. I'm gonna talk a bit about everything mentioned in the Tiering Survey.

:dragon gem: Terastallization

As the survey indicated, I think the majority of us can agree that outright banning Tera would be a huge mistake. However, and as much as I hate saying this (because it tanks :kricketune:'s OU viability), I think if anything should be looked at it should be Tera Blast. Otherwise, leave Tera be - no Tera Preview, no Tera Ban, maybe look at Tera Blast.

:kyurem: Kyurem

Although I haven't felt Kyurem to be an issue personally due to its propensity to be worn down by hazards alongside its middling defensive typing, I acknowledge that it's indeed a matchup-heavy Pokemon that can flip games on their head if proper preparations are not made for it. I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect, but I think there are much bigger fish to fry right now.

:gouging fire: Gouging Fire

Basically repeat everything I said about Kyurem here - nuclear power, middling defensive typing, matchup-heavy Pokemon, wouldn't be opposed to a suspect but not a high priority for me personally.

:roaring moon: Roaring Moon

To me, this is still the most busted Pokemon in the tier right now. In addition, non-Taunt variants just lost a way to handle it (sleep), so now it has additional leeway to crush the tier. Its combination of immediate power, bulk, Tera Flying Acrobatics with Booster Energy, boosting capabilities, phenomenal offensive typing, and coverage is too much for the tier and I heavily support a suspect test.

:archaludon: Archaludon

Man, we came a long way from saying "Morkal, this thing is mid" to "Suspect it now I can't beat it in rain" haven't we? Comedic sense of satisfaction about my favorite OU Pokemon aside, I think Archaludon has plenty of answers - Rain Archa requires that you run rain which arguably isn't even the best weather in OU (that being Sun), and I personally still like the PhysDef PressTailLightScreenProc variant the most. I'd be generally opposed to a suspect, Archaludon is an A/A+ Pokemon in OU, not broken.

:gholdengo: Gholdengo

My opinion on this mon flips back and forth quite frequently but is generally in the range of "eh, either way" and it still feels that way to me. I don't think that it's overwhelming or anything, but I do acknowledge the metagame could potentially feel a lot better with it being gone. I wouldn't be opposed to either a suspect test or it staying.

:kingambit: Kingambit

Heavily opposed to a suspect - Kingambit isn't even in the top three Dark-types in OU right now in my opinion, and hasn't been since its peak near the end of DLC1. It has a myriad of great answers, exploitable speed + an exploitable defensive typing. Please do not suspect Kingambit, I'm vehemently opposed to suspecting it.

:deoxys speed: Deoxys-Speed

Feels great in OU and isn't overwhelming at all in my opinion, he's starting to feel a bit underwhelming. Sure the speed control is nice, but the supposed "lead metagame stranglehold" is just "Deo-S user playing 5v6 after setting Rocks." Deoxys-S is a solid OU Pokemon, nothing overwhelming.

:raging bolt: Raging Bolt

See Kingambit above - great OU mon, not broken.

:barraskewda: Barraskewda

Extremely strong and fast, but weather-reliant and very frail. Not broken imo, just a great staple for Rain offense.

:Volcarona: Volcarona

I still think that :serperior: is the better MU-fish-mon of the two, but generally at this point I don't see either of them as a problem. Volcarona needs time to snowball and it doesn't have that as much in this meta. Wouldn't be opposed to a suspect for either of them, but not a high priority.

:booster energy: Booster Energy

It's fine, just get rid of Roaring Moon and Booster Energy will feel a lot more balanced.

:gliscor: Gliscor

I like how Gliscor fits in the meta now. It might be worth looking at if Kyurem gets the proverbial yeet - but I like the functionality that it adds to the tier, especially now that the focus of the tier's offense has shifted to SpA rather than Phys, which Gliscor does not appreciate. Great mon both in OU and Ubers, not suspect worthy as of right now imo (remember, just because something has a good niche in Ubers doesn't mean it's banworthy in OU - Gen 4 Ariados and Parasect both had notable Ubers niches because of Darkrai/Kyogre respectively).

:zamazenta: Zamazenta

Do not ban under any circumstances. Zamazenta is not overwhelming in any capacity and is arguably this generation's Landorus-T in terms of being the glue that helps hold OU together. Fantastic speed, great bulk, and usable offenses. It would be a serious mistake in my opinion to ban Zamazenta.

:iron boulder: Iron Boulder

Iron Boulder does one thing and does one thing well - it's fast, and can boost. Its power before said boosts is nothing to write home about, it has middling defensive typing and often can't reliably use both of its STABs. It's strong, but it's fine in the tier.

:lugia: Lugia

Whew... looks like we actually have to talk about OU Lugia a little bit. Look, I get where people are coming from with Lugia, I really do, but let me tell you a tale of GSC OU Celebi - it didn't die, the end. Lugia doesn't die either. Sure its power isn't anything to write home about, and maybe if Lugia didn't get Multiscale it might be balanced, but Multiscale is, imo, the straw that breaks the Camerupt's back for OU Lugia. To be more specific though, look at Lugia's defensive profile - 106/130/154 with Multiscale, access to Calm Mind for boosting, Recover for reliable recovery, and a wide offensive/utility movepool. Lugia may have been nerfed this gen movepool/surroundings-wise, but it also got several potent new tools in its ability to terastallize along with STAB Psychic Noise to shut down stall completely. Couple that with 110 Speed and the ability to go both physical and special along with phasing, and you have a mon that, while being underwhelming in Ubers, is not meant for OU in my opinion. If we truly need to suspect Lugia to see whether it's broken or not, so be it, but I think it'll be too much for OU.

:psychic gem: Stored Power

Cheese move - I dislike it, but I don't think it's overwhelming. I'm fine with it going or staying.
 
well ting lu is not gonna be able to do that a lot of times, and lugias bulk will just allow it to switch in again, recover, calm mind up and ham away with stored power when the time is right. lugia is too op for ou, 154 spdef with 130 defense and 105 hp is not balanced with reliable recovery lmao.
Lugia still doesn’t have Stored Power.
 
Guys STOP discussing the metagame if we were to unban an Uber! I can't take it! Can't we just shit out lazy memes every other post that would be MUCH more productive!!!!!

Que another joke about how we should unban rayquaza under the condition it holds a bad item. LE FUNNY

There is a legitimate discussion to be had about some current ubers- though I do doubt we see any more in this generation so I am over it. If we're on the verge of banning 1-5 mons, none of the current ubers are beneath those 5. Just aim a little higher at the start of gen 10 IMO.

Urshifu-R is the best retest candidate.
 
Man, thread just opens up, and we're right back to talking about dropping more UBERS. Some things never change I guess.

Honestly I'm kinda surprised Roaring Moon gets so much support. I feel like any defensive core that preps for this tier is able to handle Roaring Moon. Idk, I could just be facing bad players, but compared to Kyurem and Gouging Fire; Roaring Moon has not been a problem for me.
 
I do agree that Lugia would be too much for the tier, but it does seem like we were kind of immediately blessed with two amazing Triple Axel users who aren't hard to slot into a variety of teams and additionally carry the super effective Knock Off. I am scared to calc and see that neither Meow or Weav come close to one-shotting without a crit.
 
I do agree that Lugia would be too much for the tier, but it does seem like we were kind of immediately blessed with two amazing Triple Axel users who aren't hard to slot into a variety of teams and additionally carry the super effective Knock Off. I am scared to calc and see that neither Meow or Weav come close to one-shotting without a crit.
I did the calcs earlier in PS chat:

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 305-365 (73.3 - 87.7%) -- approx. 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 290-345 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- approx. 2HKO

Now, obviously if it calcs the way its stated this isn't 100% representative, but still scary nonetheless.
 
I do agree that Lugia would be too much for the tier, but it does seem like we were kind of immediately blessed with two amazing Triple Axel users who aren't hard to slot into a variety of teams and additionally carry the super effective Knock Off. I am scared to calc and see that neither Meow or Weav come close to one-shotting without a crit.
252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 185-225 (44.4 - 54%) -- approx. 24.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 180-215 (43.2 - 51.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to 2HKO

Lugia is far too much for OU in my opinion. I think we should focus on solving problematic Pokemon in OU like Kyurem and Roaring Moon rather than dropping a longstanding Uber like Lugia into the tier since, realistically, Lugia still has most of what makes it a great mon. Being bad in Ubers does not mean it's balanced for OU. Darkrai and Zamazenta were lowered to OU because they both had qualities that benefited the OU tier. Zamazenta is a great OU glue (especially with Dark-offense being so powerful right now), while Darkrai is a great offensive Dark-type that provides necessary speed control for multiple archetypes. Lugia would warp the metagame around it in a way that's unhealthy and restrictive on teambuilding.
 
252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 185-225 (44.4 - 54%) -- approx. 24.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 180-215 (43.2 - 51.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to 2HKO

Lugia is far too much for OU in my opinion. I think we should focus on solving problematic Pokemon in OU like Kyurem and Roaring Moon rather than dropping a longstanding Uber like Lugia into the tier that realistically still has most of what makes it a great mon. Being bad in Ubers does not mean it's balanced for OU. Darkrai and Zamazenta were lowered to OU because they both had qualities that benefited the OU tier. Zamazenta is a great OU glue, while Darkrai is a great offensive Dark-type that provides necessary speed control for multiple archetypes. Lugia would warp the metagame around it in a way that's unhealthy and restrictive on teambuilding.
I do wonder how often Lugia would want to run full HP PhysDef over any mixed bulk, SpA, or Speed investment, but those calcs are insane. Even Choice Band not one-shotting is ridiculous. While not a huge part of the discussion, one does have to ask what a Pokemon adds, and I feel like we have enough fat things that can boost and recover that suggesting a Lugia drop seems more for the novelty than trying to tackle any problem.
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
So now that the sleep chatting is over (thankfully although I don't agree with the results), we're back to where we were before... wanting more Ubers pokemon in OU?
Yes.
Lets get kyurem out of here. I think the points already been made somewhere but yeah, lets get it out.
Yeah I didn't agree with the results either
tbh i was getting a blunder policy sing skeledirge team up and was about to spam it when sleep was banned. I still don't get the purpose of it all though.
Urshifu-R is the best retest candidate.
wut.

ok so, any sand gamers having luck with excadrill? It seems like a relatively potent combo but the metagame is full of pokemon that don't rely on a second, worse pokemon to do things
Yes how is Sand Excadrill doing in OU
 
I do wonder how often Lugia would want to run full HP PhysDef over any mixed bulk, SpA, or Speed investment, but those calcs are insane. Even Choice Band not one-shotting is ridiculous. While not a huge part of the discussion, one does have to ask what a Pokemon adds, and I feel like we have enough fat things that can boost and recover that suggesting a Lugia drop seems more for the novelty than trying to tackle any problem.
Calm Mind variants would run Max HP/Max Def because Lugia's one semi-exploitable spot is its weaker defense stat (along with status). Lugia would propagate the furthering of Dark-type offense in OU and would put even more pressure on Zamazenta (who is, in my opinion, the new Landorus-T-esque glue of OU). Lugia's speed stat is 257 with 4 speed and a neutral nature - that alone outpaces almost every 0 spe bulky threat in the meta. Lugia in all honesty wouldn't even need to run Calm Mind on some sets - Substitute Recover with Aeroblast and Psychic Noise would obliterate almost the entire Stall Archetype. Lugia also has Trick, with 110 speed, and its bulk, it really is not a good fit for the tier.
 
anyway very happy for the sleep ban and would love to hear some more kyurem discussion, since it feels like it hasn't really had extended discussion, just a general mostly quiet acceptance of "yeah it's kind of a problem"
 
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I do agree that Lugia would be too much for the tier, but it does seem like we were kind of immediately blessed with two amazing Triple Axel users who aren't hard to slot into a variety of teams and additionally carry the super effective Knock Off. I am scared to calc and see that neither Meow or Weav come close to one-shotting without a crit.
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 380-450 (91.3 - 108.1%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 260-315 (62.5 - 75.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
Yeah... stop talking about unbanning Ubers, we ain't having this. These aren't Adamant, but... no.
 

j0nathan

formerly trainer_j0nathan
So, what do you all think about Darkrais Future? I mean it lost its best Move. Specs is still strong though.
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
it really is not a good fit for the tier.
Why did Lugia come up in this discussion? Even if it doesn't have stored power (which also appeared on the tiering survey for some reason) "its not fit for OU".
Like it's not my fault that anchor is an asshole
please chillout
So, what do you all think about Darkrais Future? I mean it lost its best Move. Specs is still strong though.
Its going to do everything it used to do without hypnosis. Nasty Plot sets without sleep. Scarf sets. Specs sets. Maybe the Focus Sash set, though hypnosis was usually on it but it could still work with hypnosis.
 
So, what do you all think about Darkrais Future? I mean it lost its best Move. Specs is still strong though.
I'm going to die on the hill that the hypnosis set was high roll garbage and Darkrai was always better choiced or nasty plot + 3 attacks. Like the games hypnosis rai won by itself were won because the opponent had the audacity to not prepare for high roll sets with their darkrai answers.
 
Why did Lugia come up in this discussion? Even if it doesn't have stored power (which also appeared on the tiering survey for some reason) "its not fit for OU".
It was a write-in on enough survey results to at least warrant a mention, alongside some other things like Rain Barraskewda, Iron Boulder, and a few others. Kinda surprised though, given Lugia itself was mostly shelved a bit before the Sleep discussion even happened. I'm more in agreement that there are bigger fish to fry than unbanning Ubers for the funsies.
 
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