Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

FFK

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Not 8, 10, including Arch. The title of the Suspect thread has the number 10. Wake, Zamazenta, Gambit and now Kyurem were the only ones that avoided the Ban. So, we have 5 Bans and 4 No Bans, time to equilibrate things by voting Do Not Ban on Archaludon :blobthumbsup:
So it’s all good for u if the meta is : HO / Stall / Rain / Sun ? With rain being the most used playstyle and Clodsire being 20% usage ? (Idr if it’s SPL or current ladder) Even if Archa wasn’t that broken, the meta is not fun at all and it’s all good for u ? No names defeating good players only cuz of Rain or MU fish being broken ? Then :/
 
So it’s all good for u if the meta is : HO / Stall / Rain / Sun ? With rain being the most used playstyle and Clodsire being 20% usage ? (Idr if it’s SPL or current ladder) Even if Archa wasn’t that broken, the meta is not fun at all and it’s all good for u ? No names defeating good players only cuz of Rain or MU fish being broken ? Then :/
Meta is not good for me, I want as much as 12 Pokemon banned, just don,t have Arch as one of them. I haven,t seen Rain dominant enough to be nerfed, unless its Raging Bolt the Mon banned, but for its power in Sun, not in Rain.
"No names defeating good players" isn,t really an argument. Someone who is no name today, can be dominant tomorrow.
 
Meta is not good for me, I want as much as 12 Pokemon banned, just don,t have Arch as one of them. I haven,t seen Rain dominant enough to be nerfed, unless its Raging Bolt the Mon banned, but for its power in Sun, not in Rain.
"No names defeating good players" isn,t really an argument. Someone who is no name today, can be dominant tomorrow.
I think Raging Bolt should be tested as well. Clod usage imo is not just Arch. Certainly Bolt plays a role. Between Long Neck and Kingcheap I’m finding team building to be miserable.
 

Finchinator

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Pokemon that have been and will continue to garner discussion for potential tiering action:
  • :Roaring Moon: — Roaring Moon is one of the scariest sweepers in the tier. You tend to see Taunt for Skarmory, Corviknight, Dondozo, and Gliscor while Earthquake hits Kingambit, Raging Bolt, and Heatran (or Brick Break, which even covers Air Balloon Kingambit). On the one hand, you can argue it is able to handpick most counterplay with its moveset, but on the other hand, you can argue it cannot cover everything and priority is universally strong into it. Ice Shard, ESpeed, and Sucker Punch if it uses Tera all can take it out often. I think Moon strains teambuilding a fair amount and deserves to be discussed, but there’s a lot to be said on both ends
  • :Raging Bolt: — Raging Bolt is a menace. The metagame gets by on it thanks to two things: immunities to both STABs and the uptick in bulky teams with Clodsire or Blissey. You can “play around” it better than most seemingly broken things, which goes a long way, because of Ground types being very common and Tera Fairy existing on many Pokemon, too. However, there’s a lot of risk tied to traditional Raging Bolt counterplay. I think it toes the line between overly restrictive and just extremely strong, but I am curious to see what the next developments are.
  • :Gouging Fire: — Various DD sets and CB speed boost Tera Fire on Sun are all superb. Bulkier exploits with Breaking Swipe and a defensive Tera have been on trend of late, but this set lacks some of the immediacy conventional offensive sets have. I do think, similar to Roaring Moon, it has some sway when it comes to picking its own counters. I don’t think that’s the most healthy dynamic, but I also find lower base speed to be somewhat of a limiting factor. Definitely worthy of being included in discussions
 

Finchinator

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Pokemon that probably deserve some discussion:
  • :Ogerpon-Wellspring: — Very hard to switch into, especially now as the set mix diversified to fit Play Rough and Superpower more. It isn’t quite on par with those mentioned above as it is very vulnerable to hazards and tends to be a more stationary, one-off killer as opposed to being immediately threatening of the game. However, switching in is hard and it makes slower teams really struggle right now. Curious to see if more Hydrapple, Sinistcha, Raging Bolt, etc. pop up if an Arch ban occurs
  • :Volcarona: — Every set has a few checks or counters, but the overlap is very limited across the entire set mix. And it has so many applications. 2A Sub or Morning Sun, 3A with various Tera options, mono-attack with Wisp, even Sunny Day. I am curious to see what the next big innovation on the matchup moth is.
  • :Walking Wake: — On the fence about including this one as I don’t really see it as broken, but it does limit options teambuilding wise. The right reactive Tera or core can make locking in really hard for Sun teams, but the upside is massive. Definitely not a pressing one here though.
 

viivian

flying through space
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:flutter mane:still has 135 spa, 135 speed, and one of the best offensive typings in the game. sun, the playstyle where flutter mane fits best, is even stronger now than it was at launch thanks to the addition of the dinosaur trio, so specs protospeed flutter mane would be even harder to deal with. imagine it paired up with gouging fire, for example
what are you talking about? this all sounds perfectly balanced, not sure why you're framing it like it's some overtly broken pokemon with no counters. there's a reason why nobody uses this shit in OU

Pokemon that probably deserve some discussion:
  • :Walking Wake: — On the fence about including this one as I don’t really see it as broken, but it does limit options teambuilding wise. The right reactive Tera or core can make locking in really hard for Sun teams, but the upside is massive. Definitely not a pressing one here though.
real talk though besides primarina (and the occasional water absorb clodsire), i don't think walking wake has much consistent counters. water/dragon has always been an absurdly broken STAB combo with very few resists and giving it to a pokemon with actually good offensive stats was an awful balancing decision from game freak imo, since shit can just brainlessly click its STABs with very little risk or fear of anything safely switching in. while i don't think any immediate action should be taken (extremely reliant on sun and becomes way less impactful without it), i think it's a good idea to keep walking wake in mind going forward given its limited pool switch-ins. could just be stupid and wrong about everything but that's how i see this mon rn
 
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252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 142-168 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Baxcalibur with an ally's Aurora Veil: 105-125 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

you left out Aurora Veil in that last calc
The point of the calc was to show how strong Snow + Veil was. I left it out to show how much a regular attack would have done without both.
 
Pokemon that probably deserve some discussion:
  • :Ogerpon-Wellspring: — Very hard to switch into, especially now as the set mix diversified to fit Play Rough and Superpower more. It isn’t quite on par with those mentioned above as it is very vulnerable to hazards and tends to be a more stationary, one-off killer as opposed to being immediately threatening of the game. However, switching in is hard and it makes slower teams really struggle right now. Curious to see if more Hydrapple, Sinistcha, Raging Bolt, etc. pop up if an Arch ban occurs
Curiously, I think Ogerpon-W's viability ties in very heavily to the meta itself. Considering it almost was UU in January and jumped up in usage this month probably related to the uptick in Rain teams. I think, like you said, it's worth monitoring post Arch ban (if that happens) and when rain is worse as a result.

Pokemon that probably deserve some discussion:
  • :Walking Wake: — On the fence about including this one as I don’t really see it as broken, but it does limit options teambuilding wise. The right reactive Tera or core can make locking in really hard for Sun teams, but the upside is massive. Definitely not a pressing one here though.
This mon I'm actually rather unsure on since I was initially DNB back when the suspect happened, it's really strong AND fast, but I think the problem is that Sun isn't that good right now so it's not super common.

Pokemon that have been and will continue to garner discussion for potential tiering action:
  • :Roaring Moon: — Roaring Moon is one of the scariest sweepers in the tier. You tend to see Taunt for Skarmory, Corviknight, Dondozo, and Gliscor while Earthquake hits Kingambit, Raging Bolt, and Heatran (or Brick Break, which even covers Air Balloon Kingambit). On the one hand, you can argue it is able to handpick most counterplay with its moveset, but on the other hand, you can argue it cannot cover everything and priority is universally strong into it. Ice Shard, ESpeed, and Sucker Punch if it uses Tera all can take it out often. I think Moon strains teambuilding a fair amount and deserves to be discussed, but there’s a lot to be said on both ends
  • :Raging Bolt: — Raging Bolt is a menace. The metagame gets by on it thanks to two things: immunities to both STABs and the uptick in bulky teams with Clodsire or Blissey. You can “play around” it better than most seemingly broken things, which goes a long way, because of Ground types being very common and Tera Fairy existing on many Pokemon, too. However, there’s a lot of risk tied to traditional Raging Bolt counterplay. I think it toes the line between overly restrictive and just extremely strong, but I am curious to see what the next developments are.
  • :Gouging Fire: — Various DD sets and CB speed boost Tera Fire on Sun are all superb. Bulkier exploits with Breaking Swipe and a defensive Tera have been on trend of late, but this set lacks some of the immediacy conventional offensive sets have. I do think, similar to Roaring Moon, it has some sway when it comes to picking its own counters. I don’t think that’s the most healthy dynamic, but I also find lower base speed to be somewhat of a limiting factor. Definitely worthy of being included in discussions
These mons are all fucking stupid, they can be banned.
 
Pineapoar (Gouging Fire) @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Raging Fury
- Thunder Fang
- Outrage
- Earthquake

My Anti-Rain Sun Team Gouging Fire. Since Banded Raging Fury in Sun destroys everything, so Gouging doesn’t need too much coverage, which is why I chose Thunder Fang. Usually this snipes the Pelipper swap in and it’s over by that point.
 
No living Population bomb from 15% is the funniest shit ever we really need to send that fucking bridge to quadruple Ubers
I checked, and in order to live all 10 hits, you need more than 57 HP and all 10 hits need to be min rolls. Also Archaludon is a unique case because of Stamina and Steel typing. It’s not like it has Eternamax Eternatus bulk. Plus Aggron can survive PB easily.
252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aggron: 50-60 (14.5 - 17.4%) -- approx. possible 6HKO
 
I checked, and in order to live all 10 hits, you need more than 57 HP and all 10 hits need to be min rolls. Also Archaludon is a unique case because of Stamina and Steel typing. It’s not like it has Eternamax Eternatus bulk. Plus Aggron can survive PB easily.
252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aggron: 50-60 (14.5 - 17.4%) -- approx. possible 6HKO
It was already +2
 
Pokemon that have been and will continue to garner discussion for potential tiering action:
  • :Roaring Moon: — Roaring Moon is one of the scariest sweepers in the tier. You tend to see Taunt for Skarmory, Corviknight, Dondozo, and Gliscor while Earthquake hits Kingambit, Raging Bolt, and Heatran (or Brick Break, which even covers Air Balloon Kingambit). On the one hand, you can argue it is able to handpick most counterplay with its moveset, but on the other hand, you can argue it cannot cover everything and priority is universally strong into it. Ice Shard, ESpeed, and Sucker Punch if it uses Tera all can take it out often. I think Moon strains teambuilding a fair amount and deserves to be discussed, but there’s a lot to be said on both ends
  • :Raging Bolt: — Raging Bolt is a menace. The metagame gets by on it thanks to two things: immunities to both STABs and the uptick in bulky teams with Clodsire or Blissey. You can “play around” it better than most seemingly broken things, which goes a long way, because of Ground types being very common and Tera Fairy existing on many Pokemon, too. However, there’s a lot of risk tied to traditional Raging Bolt counterplay. I think it toes the line between overly restrictive and just extremely strong, but I am curious to see what the next developments are.
  • :Gouging Fire: — Various DD sets and CB speed boost Tera Fire on Sun are all superb. Bulkier exploits with Breaking Swipe and a defensive Tera have been on trend of late, but this set lacks some of the immediacy conventional offensive sets have. I do think, similar to Roaring Moon, it has some sway when it comes to picking its own counters. I don’t think that’s the most healthy dynamic, but I also find lower base speed to be somewhat of a limiting factor. Definitely worthy of being included in discussions
Would be OK with banning any of the 6 mons you mentioned, except Wake.

Raging bolt pretty much mandates Ting-Lu or Clod on every team not to lose and even those get fucked by weather ball. It has some 4MSS, but like, it's still pretty bullshit. Just compare it to our suspect last time, kyurem, and it'll come put on top in many areas.

Gouging Fire would be a healthy addition outside of sun, as it encourages Lando-T usage over Gliscor (imo a good thing) but raging Fury under sun has no answers outside of changing the weather, Dozo, and Heatran.

Roaring Moon is mainly relegated to HO teams, but it's too good of an enabler for Gambit by knocking off Corv and Lando-T's helmets. It's also way too fast.

Waterpon isn't op quite yet, but will be once all these Dragons are banned. Now that it's teching coverage over Encore, it's become more difficult to respond to.

Volcarona could stay, but ideally Tera Blast should be banned. The move let's it run too much and basically get away with running any BS combinations of 3 moves (I've had success with QD / Hurricane / Tera Blast Fighting / Psychic Volc in a few games LMAO).

Wake I think is just strong rn due to weather wars in the current meta. Maybe it could get looked at again if it continues to dominate after the other mons are banned.
 
Pokemon that probably deserve some discussion:
  • :Ogerpon-Wellspring: — Very hard to switch into, especially now as the set mix diversified to fit Play Rough and Superpower more. It isn’t quite on par with those mentioned above as it is very vulnerable to hazards and tends to be a more stationary, one-off killer as opposed to being immediately threatening of the game. However, switching in is hard and it makes slower teams really struggle right now. Curious to see if more Hydrapple, Sinistcha, Raging Bolt, etc. pop up if an Arch ban occurs
Is it just me or is waterpon just kinda... meh? I mean, we have 8 good dragon types and 3 good grass types. Most of them can either take a hit or outspeed and oneshot. And even outside of those resists, I find my teams usually always have at least one thing to take a hit and revenge, whether its zama, skarm, tera'd lu or tusk. Plus, even if it was more difficult to switch into, 110 just isn't enough naturally without a (good) way of boosting it, meaning you get revenge killed by quite a few things like moon, meow, mixed ival, and CB pult. Overall it's like the 8th most threatening setup sweeper in their tier imo. It's certainly not bad, it does put up some good work against rain with WA and tera'd ivy cudgels, but not banworthy
 
Out of the 6 Mons Finch listed, Waterpon is the only one not on my list. Relies on not having hazards on its side and checked well by both Grasses and Dragons. Yes, can OHKO some of the dragons with Play Rough or Superpower, but others like Dragonite will still check it. Serperior is a common Mon that outspeeds and uses Glare. Might die if +2 Waterpon goes Tera, but then it's a good trade, Serperior for opposing Tera Mon that won't sweep anymore. Sun teams give Waterpon problems too, although it has the distinct niche of forcing Wake to predict instead of just spamming Hydro Steam. Overall, despite being a strong offensive threat, I don't think action should be taken on Waterpon currently, which might change with more Bans.

Regarding Wake, it's as strong as the first day. Wake, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Band Moon, Volcarona and the lesser abusers (Chloro Venu/Lilli/Shiftry, the other 2 Volcarona forms, Tusk, Heatran, Cinderace, Typhlosion, Ceruledge, Charizard, Moltres, etc. ) make Sun the strongest weather at the moment in my opinion and that is despite having an objectively worse setters than Rain has (at least both better than Politoed, but that's irrelevant). It's very hard to prepare for all of them. For Wake specifically you have these options:
Strong Water resistance + Fairy (for example Waterpon + Clefable), forcing Wake to predict.
Blissey. Will crumble to Wake partners though and Wake learns Flip Turn.
Tera Water Glowking or Johto Slowking.
AV Pex.
Other weather (however, Wake will still hurt Rain hard with Specs DM and boosted Hydro, while Sand isn't optimal either)
Tera Fairy Water Absorb Clodsire. This is actually amazing vs Rain too.

And that's pretty much it. Yes, it's possible to outplay, but remember it's not only Wake you have to deal, but also an army of other dragons, Chloro users, a Tusk with boosted attack and some Fire. Maybe Wake isn't the most broken Sun Mon, but it's definitely close to the podium and the only Water in the list. It's actually similar to what pro-ban people talk about Archaludon, it's very different from the rest of his weather abussers improving the style a lot, but unlike Arch, I do believe Wake (and several more) is ban-worthy.
 
Its crazy how far I've come as a Player. Back in launch, I'd thought Hreat Tusk and Treads were going to be most annoying, unevolving, parts of the meta that other players will keep in the meta no matter the cost. Now, those two things look like Trash bulking up to still do garbage damage. Why are they OU?
Rapid Spin while killing some relevant OU Mons, such as Gambit and Gholdengo. Also, if you think Great Tusk does garbage damage, you have been using defensive spreads, which is indeed terrible outside of Stall. Defensive Treads has some potential, but Tusk its all about hitting hard and spinning.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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I will say if we do look at Volc as a community (down the line), lets please look at Tera first, because ideally I think the community (for the most part) is content with restricting tera by banning Tera Blast because I don't think Volc is problematic if it loses Tera Blast, for example it will always lose to Heatran.
 
Rapid Spin while killing some relevant OU Mons, such as Gambit and Gholdengo. Also, if you think Great Tusk does garbage damage, you have been using defensive spreads, which is indeed terrible outside of Stall. Defensive Treads has some potential, but Tusk its all about hitting hard and spinning.
Yeah, I also use max Attack on Great Tusk. 0 Attack Great Tusk is so weak. It needs Attack investment to not hit like a wet noodle.

I will say if we do look at Volc as a community (down the line), lets please look at Tera first, because ideally I think the community (for the most part) is content with restricting tera by banning Tera Blast because I don't think Volc is problematic if it loses Tera Blast, for example it will always lose to Heatran.
Unfortunately, I think the time period when we could have acted on Tera is long gone. Support for action on Tera is at an all-time low and will probably get lower still. We will not get a Tera Blast ban when under 50% of qualified players even want action on Tera.
 
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So it’s all good for u if the meta is : HO / Stall / Rain / Sun ? With rain being the most used playstyle and Clodsire being 20% usage ? (Idr if it’s SPL or current ladder) Even if Archa wasn’t that broken, the meta is not fun at all and it’s all good for u ? No names defeating good players only cuz of Rain or MU fish being broken ? Then :/
Don't worry. I have growing evidence that D-Speed may also invalidate Stall.

Pokemon that probably deserve some discussion:
  • :Ogerpon-Wellspring: — Very hard to switch into, especially now as the set mix diversified to fit Play Rough and Superpower more. It isn’t quite on par with those mentioned above as it is very vulnerable to hazards and tends to be a more stationary, one-off killer as opposed to being immediately threatening of the game. However, switching in is hard and it makes slower teams really struggle right now. Curious to see if more Hydrapple, Sinistcha, Raging Bolt, etc. pop up if an Arch ban occurs
  • :Volcarona: — Every set has a few checks or counters, but the overlap is very limited across the entire set mix. And it has so many applications. 2A Sub or Morning Sun, 3A with various Tera options, mono-attack with Wisp, even Sunny Day. I am curious to see what the next big innovation on the matchup moth is.
  • :Walking Wake: — On the fence about including this one as I don’t really see it as broken, but it does limit options teambuilding wise. The right reactive Tera or core can make locking in really hard for Sun teams, but the upside is massive. Definitely not a pressing one here though.
So D-Speed is currently not even on anyone's radar?

Unfortunately, I think the time period when we could have acted on Tera is long gone. Support for action on Tera is at an all-time low and will probably get lower still. We will not get a Tera Blast ban when under 50% of qualified players even want action on Tera.
It's never too late. We've had tiering action take place in metagames long after they were no longer current gen. I really don't like when people act like it is too late. When these discussions first started, many people kept giving reasons to wait for Tera. Wait until Home. Wait until the next DLC. Wait until the next, next DLC. Etc. I don't know if it is all the same folks, but I find it way too convenient that it was consistently called too early and then pretty much was considered too late.

The real reason why Tera wouldn't be banned is because of community support, or lack thereof. It's simply a much more popular mechanic. But it has absolutely nothing to do with timing. Timing is just an excuse from folks who don't want to get rid of it. If we could gather community will, we could do it tomorrow. But we can't. And this has been an issue all generation.
 
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I will say if we do look at Volc as a community (down the line), lets please look at Tera first, because ideally I think the community (for the most part) is content with restricting tera by banning Tera Blast because I don't think Volc is problematic if it loses Tera Blast, for example it will always lose to Heatran.
Does it? With Tera Dragon / Water it just sets up in Heatrans face..?

Raging bolt pretty much mandates Ting-Lu or Clod on every team not to lose and even those get fucked by weather ball. It has some 4MSS, but like, it's still pretty bullshit. Just compare it to our suspect last time, kyurem, and it'll come put on top in many areas.
I apologize in advance if Clodsire is anyone’s favorite Pokémon. Clod usage skyrocketing is a giant red flag on the state of meta. The mon has no business being a top tier OU mon. This gives me flashbacks of Dracovish and Seismitoad, when Toad peaked at #4 usage, then fell back to RU as soon as Vish got banned.
 
I do think we will act on tera, but not until at least Archaludon and a few other broken threats are looked at and or banned. Because from what I have heard from most people, they don't want action on tera until more stuff goes since there are a good amount of suspect worthy things in the tier since clearly certain pokemon need to be looked at
 

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