Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Hopefully in Gen 10 the Ruin Legendaries get hidden abilities and Chi-yu gets Solar Power. I think it needs a buff and is lacking in power. Additionally revert it stats to the stats it had in version 1.0.0 and give it Blue Flare.
And for good measure buff Charcoal so that when specifically held by Chi-Yu is doubles SpA and gives all Fire moves a x1.333~ boost.
I think that’d be balanced and I’ll be expecting my offer letter at GameFreak or Blizzard some time tomorrow.
 
Hopefully in Gen 10 the Ruin Legendaries get hidden abilities and Chi-yu gets Solar Power. I think it needs a buff and is lacking in power. Additionally revert it stats to the stats it had in version 1.0.0 and give it Blue Flare.
And for good measure buff Charcoal so that when specifically held by Chi-Yu is doubles SpA and gives all Fire moves a x1.333~ boost.
I think that’d be balanced and I’ll be expecting my offer letter at GameFreak or Blizzard some time tomorrow.
A goldfish spitting blue fire would be dope. I’m pretty sure their abilities will get changed next gen that is if they are available in the first place
 
Hopefully in Gen 10 the Ruin Legendaries get hidden abilities and Chi-yu gets Solar Power. I think it needs a buff and is lacking in power. Additionally revert it stats to the stats it had in version 1.0.0 and give it Blue Flare.
And for good measure buff Charcoal so that when specifically held by Chi-Yu is doubles SpA and gives all Fire moves a x1.333~ boost.
I think that’d be balanced and I’ll be expecting my offer letter at GameFreak or Blizzard some time tomorrow.
A goldfish spitting blue fire would be dope. I’m pretty sure their abilities will get changed next gen that is if they are available in the first place
btw here’s newly buffed Chi-Yu which it rightfully deserves.
252+ SpA Charcoal Solar Power Chi-Yu Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Blissey in Sun: 590-696 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It doesn’t KO so obviously it’s pretty balanced.
 
Well, this could be a self fulfilling prophecy by the same logic. If we banned Tera and the same number of folks left for that, then the people left behind could be more anti-Tera crowd and so on. And so the point that not banning Tera left more pro-Tera people behind and generated a cycle of increasing pro-Tera majority would likely be getting at that. (...). Just maybe other folks would have stayed and claimed to be more invested/informed with different decisions. Does that make them worse? Not necesarrily.
I agree and I would hold the same stance had Tera been banned and someone suggested that we hear the lapsed pro-Tera players opinions. People who play the tier frequently for sure are more informed than the infrequent players, you didn't know there was a survey what else you don't know as jump in and jump out of the tier?

I will say that I have been in and out of the tier myself because gen 9 power creep with Tera is just frustrating sometimes.
Banning Tera may not solve SV OU powercreep so players that share your mindset may abandon the tier even with a Tera ban. Again, why should we prioritize non-players?
 
I agree and I would hold the same stance had Tera been banned and someone suggested that we hear the lapsed pro-Tera players opinions. People who play the tier frequently for sure are more informed than the infrequent players, you didn't know there was a survey what else you don't know as jump in and jump out of the tier?
This is an oversimplification. Players can be knowledgeable about the game, pokemon in general, and even game design. You can come back, play some games, read some discussions, and figure out the state of things within not too long. It's not like you have to play the whole way through to be an informed player. And my arguments for why I believe it is harmful haven't changed much.

As it is the changes to the tier through various tiering actions like bans or additions like DLCs often shake up the tier. The meta game one moment may be entirely different than one the next moment. But no, that's not an argument for only the people who were constant because the folks who come in and out can still figure out the new meta, just as the folks playing along the whole time literally have to do every time there is a shift. This insinuation that you just can't catch up is flat wrong.

As for the survey comment, that wasn't about a lack of knowledge. I just didn't play during that period. So what? But then I came back and increased my knowledge again. I read the discussions surrounding various issues. In no way am I saying we need a do over of the survey because I didn't participate. You snooze you lose would be fair enough. However, the point about surveys being misleading is often valid. This is not just the case for Smogon, but in general. If you ever look at political polling, for example, those things are generally nonsense compared to actual results.

The whole debate is closer than some on here would like us to believe. And if any group of folks is left out of the survey, as was the intial point of discussion, even closer. Now I still say Tera is probably more popular and wouldn't be banned based on that popularity contest. But if we are going to argue about it purely from the merits of the survey, much of this discussion is inherently flawed.

Banning Tera may not solve SV OU powercreep so players that share your mindset may abandon the tier even with a Tera ban. Again, why should we prioritize non-players?
This is the wrong question to ask. What Smogon should be prioritizing are not "non-players" any more than they should be prioritizing "player players" or whatever you want to call them. They should be prioritizing balance, which is the entire point of this system in the first place. Not populous opinions.

Furthermore, the idea that you call them non-players is fundamentally flawed. You are putting them into a box. It's a sort of us versus them division that doesn't need to be that way. They may not always play, but they may play sometimes and/or might like to play more. They could be players, too. That's the whole point of saying the survey could be missing potential players. It likely is.

I will admit that with gen 9, Smogon is in a no-win situation. The gen 9 powercreep would be insane even without Tera. You cannot please everybody. It does feel to me like maybe we are trying to please the majority too much sometimes.

Would players with my mindset abandon the tier with a Tera ban? Well, no. I can't speak for everybody, but my mindset isn't one of abandoning the tier in the first place. I just take breaks from it sometimes. If they are like me in mindset, it wouldn't be about abandoning the tier. That's not the point of what I said. Like why am I even here if I abandoned the tier with Tera even still active? That makes no sense.
 
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -6 Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras in Sun: 0-58680 (0 - 533454.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
I have outdone all of you.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -6 Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras in Sun: 0-58680 (0 - 489000%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -6 Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras in Rain: 504-63248 (4200 - 527066.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
USE CHI-YU IN RAIN! Free now for the price of 100 ELO!
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -6 Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras in Sun: 0-58680 (0 - 489000%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -6 Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras in Rain: 504-63248 (4200 - 527066.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
USE CHI-YU IN RAIN! Free now for the price of 100 ELO!
Can someone walk me through how, besides the whole hehe 0 damage, Chi-Yu does MORE damage in rain than in sun? 58580 max in sun vs fucking 63248 max in rain.
 
Can someone walk me through how, besides the whole hehe 0 damage, Chi-Yu does MORE damage in rain than in sun? 58580 max in sun vs fucking 63248 max in rain.
I think its the damage overflow glitch, because damage caps at 65,535 (this was from SS, but it probs works as well here). It will loop back around to count again. So really, the sun damage is way more, but the game can't process it so it just makes it zero and starts counting again. This is from the sun damage calcs:
Possible damage amounts: (57152, 0, 8384, 16768, 25144, 33528, 41912, 50296, 58680, 1528, 9904, 18288, 26672, 35056, 43440, 51824)
Shit is fucked up.
 
Can someone walk me through how, besides the whole hehe 0 damage, Chi-Yu does MORE damage in rain than in sun? 58580 max in sun vs fucking 63248 max in rain.
JUST LOOK AT THIS CALC
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -6 Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras with an ally's Aurora Veil: 508-63252 (4233.3 - 527100%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(it's in Veil and Light Screen, it cannot show it. It does more damage through Light Screen+Veil than through Rain, which does more damage than through Sun)
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
I think its the damage overflow glitch, because damage caps at 65,535 (this was from SS, but it probs works as well here). It will loop back around to count again. So really, the sun damage is way more, but the game can't process it so it just makes it zero and starts counting again. This is from the sun damage calcs:
Possible damage amounts: (57152, 0, 8384, 16768, 25144, 33528, 41912, 50296, 58680, 1528, 9904, 18288, 26672, 35056, 43440, 51824)
Shit is fucked up.
Damn, if only they used one more bit for damage. We coulda seen wrecked levels unlike anything else.
Reminds me of how Regieleki can get too fast for Trick Room, or how Gen 1 Mewtwo only amnesia twice to not get brutally kneecapped.

Also eternamax is that still a thing in Natdex AG? Max out everything and watch as it literally takes one or two damage from its essentially base 0 defenses.

Make better games Gamefreak
 
Damn, if only they used one more bit for damage. We coulda seen wrecked levels unlike anything else.
Reminds me of how Regieleki can get too fast for Trick Room, or how Gen 1 Mewtwo only amnesia twice to not get brutally kneecapped.

Also eternamax is that still a thing in Natdex AG? Max out everything and watch as it literally takes one or two damage from its essentially base 0 defenses.

Make better games Gamefreak
But then we remove the best parts of the games. If we don't have this funny stuff, then we are left to see how shitty it actually is. It's like Sonic Boom, it's glitches are the only thing holding it together because otherwise it would be way worse to play because the glitches are the only thing making it enjoyable. /j
 
then they shouldn't have left, should they? it's not our fault they were too weak to suck it up and play the game until the next opportunity for action. you don't see me taking my ball and going home because i don't like how the gambit suspect turned out or because the community has consistently failed to act on ghold
so is it "if you don't like the game, stop playing", or is it "if you don't like the game, keep playing and try to wait for another time for action (which never came)"

why would they spend all of their time waiting for something that clearly isn't going to happen when so many oldgens are amazing right now. I teambuilt a Gen 6 OU team in literally five minutes that is solid and doesn't have any major flaws, try doing that in SV OU without HO lol. Gen 3 OU is as great as ever, and is in one of its least controversial eras ever, and more. National Dex is better, especially NatDex UU, the lower tiers right now are better, there are so many good tiers to play right now, why blame people for not wanting to play SV OU?

maybe you will stubbornly wait for action on tera, gholdengo, or kingambit; not everyone will, because not everyone feels allegiance to a tier they don't like
 
so is it "if you don't like the game, stop playing", or is it "if you don't like the game, keep playing and try to wait for another time for action (which never came)"

why would they spend all of their time waiting for something that clearly isn't going to happen when so many oldgens are amazing right now. I teambuilt a Gen 6 OU team in literally five minutes that is solid and doesn't have any major flaws, try doing that in SV OU without HO lol. Gen 3 OU is as great as ever, and is in one of its least controversial eras ever, and more. National Dex is better, especially NatDex UU, the lower tiers right now are better, there are so many good tiers to play right now, why blame people for not wanting to play SV OU?

maybe you will stubbornly wait for action on tera, gholdengo, or kingambit; not everyone will, because not everyone feels allegiance to a tier they don't like
It's moreso if they want to participate in the tiering action of SV, or any tier, then they should be involved in it. If you don't like the tier, cool, that's fine if you don't like it, I don't like Gen 6 or 7 because I feel they are kinda bland in comparison to other generations (I could be extremely wrong about this as I thought this too about Gen 4, but I was proven wrong when I played it and it was fun), or Gen 2 that much because of the slower pace of games (though I do know they aren't the stall fests people make them out to be). But you shouldn't have a say in tiering if you leave a tier, you should have a say if you are participating at the time of surveys. If you still are not going to participate in the tier but want a say, then lol, sucks to suck. You didn't want to particpate, too bad. You don't get a say.
TLDR, particpate in a tier to get a say, otherwise, we shouldn't give a flying fuck what people say about a tier. (This isn't to you specifically ant4456, I know you particpate in discussions, so I do think you get a say, it's moreso what others who are outside the discussion think. You're cool :) )
 
so is it "if you don't like the game, stop playing", or is it "if you don't like the game, keep playing and try to wait for another time for action (which never came)"

why would they spend all of their time waiting for something that clearly isn't going to happen when so many oldgens are amazing right now. I teambuilt a Gen 6 OU team in literally five minutes that is solid and doesn't have any major flaws, try doing that in SV OU without HO lol. Gen 3 OU is as great as ever, and is in one of its least controversial eras ever, and more. National Dex is better, especially NatDex UU, the lower tiers right now are better, there are so many good tiers to play right now, why blame people for not wanting to play SV OU?

maybe you will stubbornly wait for action on tera, gholdengo, or kingambit; not everyone will, because not everyone feels allegiance to a tier they don't like
I don't think it's really about blaming people to not play SV OU, obviously everyone is within their right to do that, but I think extending an extra survey to people who stopped playing is unnecessary. If they didn't like the meta, they can make their opinions known through the channels that already exist.
 
Lets please stop with the Chi-Yu against Paras and similar absurd calcs please, no need to have multiple pages about this.

Have you found success with any formerly OU Pokemon recently? I tried Cornerstone a few days ago and really liked it

:ogerpon-cornerstone:
Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip
- Superpower

Its nice being able to threaten the Dragons for good damage without having to rely on Play Rough, unlike Wellspring. I was using Low Kick at first but I missed the OHKO against Archaludon several times even after rocks so just switched to Superpower

+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 316-372 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 316-372 (84.9 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

j0nathan

formerly trainer_j0nathan
Lets please stop with the Chi-Yu against Paras and similar absurd calcs please, no need to have multiple pages about this.

Have you found success with any formerly OU Pokemon recently? I tried Cornerstone a few days ago and really liked it

:ogerpon-cornerstone:
Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip
- Superpower

Its nice being able to threaten the Dragons for good damage without having to rely on Play Rough, unlike Wellspring. I was using Low Kick at first but I missed the OHKO against Archaludon several times even after rocks so just switched to Superpower

+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 316-372 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 316-372 (84.9 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Has sturdy been useful? And what are some good teammates?
 
Has sturdy been useful? And what are some good teammates?
From what I have played with cornerstone (I used charm on it, suprisingly decent), it has the ability to emergency check a lot of mons because sturdy is quite easy to maintain if you use horn leech, which I think is the best grass stab on cornerstone despite the reduced power.
As for partners, any rapid spinner is great support for cornerstone such as tusk or treads to allow for it to easily keep sturdy. Wish support from alomomola is great for it. Defensively, Volcarona, Toxapex, Skeledirge and Gholdengo all resist the super effective moves aimed towards cornerstone. It really struggles with Gholdengo and steel types (despite having superpower), so magnezone could be good support, or ground types such as tusk and gliscor, or dark mons such as gambit, weavile or darkrai.
Cornerstone is quite flexible and can fit on many teams, so it is best to just experiment with different mons.
 
Has sturdy been useful? And what are some good teammates?
Sturdy was pretty useful since I had good hazard control and there are several Pokemon that outspeed Cornerstone in OU these days like Valiant, Boulder, and a few Pokemon in Sun and Rain.

I liked Kingambit cause it helped vs non Low Kick Meowscarada and Weavile that can Triple Axel pass Sturdy. Particularly vs Meowscarada cause sometimes they just U-turn instead and if you Tera as they do that then you just wasted Tera and lost Sturdy, while Meowscarada can come in later to Flower Trick you. Kingambit also helped vs Gholdengo which resists all moves in this set. Though you would want something that can check Zamazenta alongside them.
 
Salty rant incoming, you have been warned.

I'm glad that, out of the last 2 pages of garbage shitpost, only my one-liner criticizing the lack of ever-so-slightly average seriousness level of discussion got deleted. Maybe if you guys don't want the people who try to get into the current gen OU to feel alienated but instead participate and get involved with the metagame, the first step would be to, for common users, stay on topic and follow the rules, and for whoever moderates this place, to actually try to moderate the #1 thread where you would expect a more serious discussion about the meta. Seriously, in the 7000+ posts in this thread, less than a thousand should have been kept. All 6000+ others posts are unrelated to the topic (it's SV OU, not "what if Arceus-Bug in OU"), private jokes, circlejerking, low quality memes and a logical fallacy shitfest. Either make a shitpost thread in this subforum or actually moderate that shit a little bit. Well, after all, my post being deleted and not the 3 chi-yu low effort entire-page-filling Chi-Yu pictures says a lot about the moderation of this thread. As a casual who tries to find a tier to play and get involved with its metagame after being gone since early SM, the discussion threads for other tiers are much less active than this one, but I'm 1000% more inclined to participate in those rather than this one right here.
 
Things are heating up in the OU thread, meesa betting on the sephiroth looking guy. /s

Anyways, one question about this suspect test, shouldn't the test be on Electro Shot? Because every problem it has is because of EShot, similar to Shed Tail. Or is it the that only Arch gets EShot is why Arch as a whole is sus'd?
 
Anyways, one question about this suspect test, shouldn't the test be on Electro Shot? Because every problem it has is because of EShot, similar to Shed Tail. Or is it the that only Arch gets EShot is why Arch as a whole is sus'd?
This has already been extensively discussed in previous posts, although, I do share the feeling that you have to dig through the trash to find any bits of it. For further information, I recommend searching through the Policy Review here https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/policy-review.63/ and read through the Suspect thread here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...und-10-london-bridge-is-falling-down.3736074/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Salty rant incoming, you have been warned.

I'm glad that, out of the last 2 pages of garbage shitpost, only my one-liner criticizing the lack of ever-so-slightly average seriousness level of discussion got deleted. Maybe if you guys don't want the people who try to get into the current gen OU to feel alienated but instead participate and get involved with the metagame, the first step would be to, for common users, stay on topic and follow the rules, and for whoever moderates this place, to actually try to moderate the #1 thread where you would expect a more serious discussion about the meta. Seriously, in the 7000+ posts in this thread, less than a thousand should have been kept. All 6000+ others posts are unrelated to the topic (it's SV OU, not "what if Arceus-Bug in OU"), private jokes, circlejerking, low quality memes and a logical fallacy shitfest. Either make a shitpost thread in this subforum or actually moderate that shit a little bit. Well, after all, my post being deleted and not the 3 chi-yu low effort entire-page-filling Chi-Yu pictures says a lot about the moderation of this thread. As a casual who tries to find a tier to play and get involved with its metagame after being gone since early SM, the discussion threads for other tiers are much less active than this one, but I'm 1000% more inclined to participate in those rather than this one right here.
those are all good points, but have you considered
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Your Opinion: 264-64400 (2200 - 536666.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Things are heating up in the OU thread, meesa betting on the sephiroth looking guy. /s

Anyways, one question about this suspect test, shouldn't the test be on Electro Shot? Because every problem it has is because of EShot, similar to Shed Tail. Or is it the that only Arch gets EShot is why Arch as a whole is sus'd?
Firstly: Things are 'heating up'? I thought the temperature was always a literal frying pan! Like, the rest of OU is fine and this room is always being burned like in the 'this is fine' meme.
Secondly: Even last respects wasn't banned until Basc got it. If it is one mon using it, it is that mon unless shown otherwise.
 

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