Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

658Greninja

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Enjoyment: 8

Competitiveness: 7

This meta is certainly better than the Arch meta, but there is a lot of work to be done.

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5
Stupid triceratops with 2 broken sets that can beat Dozo. We could suspect it, but since most people here voted a 5, QB it to not waste time.

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4
Imo Wogre is the most oppressive mon in the tier atm behind G-Fire. Balance teams have no way to play around it besides Dragapult and Serperior, the latter is dropping in usage. Rillaboom takes too much from Horn Leech and Pwhip. Play Rough exterminates every Dragon including Hydrapple, a mon seemingly designed to counter this thing.

This is without mentioning other options like Substitute that completely shits on Clod/Gliscor.

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3
It went from a definitive 5 for me to a 4, to now a 3 or 3.5 imo. Moon is still kinda stupid, but it has clear counter-play options and flaws. It’s hard to get up a DD on anything besides Slowking-G. DD Taunt beats Toxic Gliscor but hard-loses to Gambit and Rbolt. It’s also not hard to put Moon in range of Weavile Shard or Dnite E-Speed in practice. BO and HO has RH Lando. Balance and Stall has Barb Clef. Even with Knock and Taunt, Dozo still checks it fine despite losing Boots. It often gets forced to burn Tera since Fairies and U-Turn will dent it badly. The checks found on HO/Balance/BO are not difficult to slot in. If you’re running Balance, you should be accounting for Taunt and DD 3atks anyways. Gliscor + Gambit for example covers that just fine.

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3
I like Volc’s presence here. It helps check Ghold and Kyurem on Balance/BO/HO. That being said, I do see the argument of banning it. With Tera it becomes a game of guessing if it’s Tera Ground, Water, or Dragon. It is called the matchup moth for a reason. Though I feel there is consistent enough counterplay to it. CM Prim, Dnite, Moon, T-Wave Pult, AV Gking, Balloon Tran, SpD Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Clod, etc. Even at +1, stuff like Lando can trade with it to put it in range of a KO.

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2
Imo not broken. reliant on Tera to not get blown up by Ground moves. The most common Ground types either outspeed it with investment or outright check it like Ting-Lu. Rain has fallen out of favor for obvious reasons. It can be punished by Encore or Dragons that live a +1 Thunderclap, which is to say alot of them. Pretty much its Gambit if Sucker Punch had an immunity.

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3
Gambit is similar to Volc. It offers teams with reliable speed control, a ghost resist, and is overall an anti-cheese mon. That being said, it can still be polarizing in the lategame with Tera and items like Balloon or Lum complicating things. Gambit can also run options like Tera Fairy Blast to immediately evicerate Tusk or Tera Fighting Low Kick for Dozo and Gambit. That being said, since Gambit is the no. 1 mon in the tier rn, you’re expected to have checks to it. If you see the Gambit is holding lefties or a balloon, burn it with Pult, and make sure to pop the balloon first. If its Lum, hit it. Despite the variance with Tera, I think accounting for it in the builder is doable. Stuff like RH Taunt Lando, Tusk, Zama, Encore Val, Samu, Dozo, Skarm, Tran, etc all work fine. You could also lure it with Low Kick from Weavile or Focus Miss Gking. Like CTC said, its a bitch at times, but it’s also a necessary evil.

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1
Apologies for resorting to this, but if you voted anywhere above a 3 in a meta with bulky Prim, Valiant, Clef, Gliscor, RH Lando, Ghold, Pult, Volc, Dozo, and Gking, then that’s a skill issue.

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2
Just off the fact Spike stacking Balances are less popular due to other meta trends and all common forms of hazard removal threatening it (minus Corv), I think Ghold is in a state where it’s healthy. Ghold’s middling 84 Speed is starting to show its ugliness, and common weaknesses to Dark, Fire, and Ground means it gets forced to Tera or forced to switch out.

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1
lol
 
Witnessed a upper ladder match of someone using woger with knock off/sub/seed/ivy and that stall team was helpless against it. I've got some free ELO off it since. One fat team had hydrapple and slowed it down. But it's an effective mon and I suspect the reason council is talking about it is due to this set- but also then you go expect that and it may swords dance play rough you.. its versatile for sure but offensive teams can handle it easily enough.

But I expect in the communities effort to balance this meta it will find itself banned too.
Many such cases! Worse still, this has been the case since the beginning of DLC1 yet nothing has been done, DLC1 even prioritized pointless bans like roaring moon and ones that actively made the game worse like Gliscor over dealing with the waterpon problem and that's part of why it was the very worst iteration of SV - waterpon has been a blight on this tier for nearly 6 months now. Those of you going "why are they coming so hard after waterpon," this is why, because it has been a problem for 6 months now and we finally have a chance to do something about it
 
When I first read the tera question, ontop of it being conditional, ontop of Ogerpon being on the survey, it read to me, as a filtering process to throw out bad data. Meaning, if I was reading the data, based on your responses to the Pokemon that are on the survey, if you responded "weird" yet had action on your tera responses, you'd be taken aback because your responses forms an opinion on the metagame that is solely to fit your needs, not a competitive one, if that makes sense, so you should be answering Action on tera, in my opinion, if you're not wanting to vote ban/suspect worthy on anything in the survey.
Please elaborate on this, in great detail
 
Worse still, this has been the case since the beginning of DLC1 yet nothing has been done, DLC1 even prioritized pointless bans like roaring moon and ones that actively made the game worse like Gliscor over dealing with the waterpon problem and that's part of why it was the very worst iteration of SV - waterpon has been a blight on this tier for nearly 6 months now. Those of you going "why are they coming so hard after waterpon," this is why, because it has been a problem for 6 months now and we finally have a chance to do something about it
I did think it was worse before. But the additional strength of dlc additions made it barable. Arch gone, it's stronger and will get better with each ban. Its matchup vs stall may get it prioritized sooner though idk
 
When I first read the tera question, ontop of it being conditional, ontop of Ogerpon being on the survey, it read to me, as a filtering process to throw out bad data. Meaning, if I was reading the data, based on your responses to the Pokemon that are on the survey, if you responded "weird" yet had action on your tera responses, you'd be taken aback because your responses forms an opinion on the metagame that is solely to fit your needs, not a competitive one, if that makes sense, so you should be answering Action on tera, in my opinion, if you're not wanting to vote ban/suspect worthy on anything in the survey.
What do you mean? Are you saying people's opinions that 'this is fine', even if not the best judgement, should be ignored? That's not how democracy works.
 
Voting tera ban and not correctly identifying the Pokemon that abuse tera should get your survey response thrown out or at least your tera vote.
No. What if you want tera to be kicked first before anything else? Then, you'd think Tera was the root cause of everything and you would look at the other things with a 'if tera was gone' worldview. How is that 'to fit your needs, not a competitive one'?

Also, WHAT DO YOU MEAN with that? If it doesn't fit your vision of 'competitive' it should be banned? Should we just ignore all the tera ban advocate votes due to your own personal bias? Is it illegal to have fun on a game?

Just going to state I don't believe in this, but... yeah. Could happen. Pretty sure, though not 100% certain, that RaikouLover said something like this (Can I have some clarification if this was what you meant before?).
 
Voting tera ban and not correctly identifying the Pokemon that abuse tera should get your survey response thrown out or at least your tera vote.
What are some examples of votes that have been cast that you think should be thrown out

No. What if you want tera to be kicked first before anything else? Then, you'd think Tera was the root cause of everything and you would look at the other things with a 'if tera was gone' worldview. How is that 'to fit your needs, not a competitive one'?

Also, WHAT DO YOU MEAN with that? If it doesn't fit your vision of 'competitive' it should be banned? Should we just ignore all the tera ban advocate votes due to your own personal bias? Is it illegal to have fun on a game?

Just going to state I don't believe in this, but... yeah. Could happen. Pretty sure, though not 100% certain, that RaikouLover said something like this (Can I have some clarification if this was what you meant before?).
Damn bro lives rent free in your head for being one of the only brave enough to criticize Tera, despite him being perfectly respectful to those he disagrees with and recognizing everyone is entitled to their own opinions
 
Damn bro lives rent free in your head for being one of the only brave enough to criticize Tera, despite him being perfectly respectful to those he disagrees with and recognizing everyone is entitled to their own opinions
naw, I meant that he had the same argument that tera should have been kicked, not that he is rude (except the, you know, self proclaimed salt posts after each survey)

You as a player, from my example, either think Volcorona is competitive now, with tera, or are stalling the tera ban and should be voting to kick out Gouging Fire.
Just going to state I don't believe in this, but... yeah. Could happen.
case closed.

(no, but I personally believe these things should be banned: :normal gem::gouging fire::ogerpon-wellspring::roaring moon:)
 
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(no, but I personally believe these things should be banned: :normal gem::gouging fire::ogerpon-wellspring::roaring moon:)
normal gem is DEMOLISHING the OU meta rn, must've been a write in for many people. Can't believe the ou council didn't give a survey slot for something that enables many speedy threats such as espeed dnite, unburden hawlucha, and acrobatics moon

jokes aside: gouging qb, ghold or bolt suspect, could take or leave the rest
 
Also, WHAT DO YOU MEAN with that? If it doesn't fit your vision of 'competitive' it should be banned? Should we just ignore all the tera ban advocate votes due to your own personal bias? Is it illegal to have fun on a game?

Just going to state I don't believe in this, but... yeah. Could happen. Pretty sure, though not 100% certain, that RaikouLover said something like this (Can I have some clarification if this was what you meant before?).
Not sure I understand the context so I will reiterate my position.

I think Tera is the biggest problem in Gen 9. I want it banned. Most of the problems in my opinion start there. However, I am NOT “Tera Ban or bust.” I am open to all of the following:

-Full Tera Ban
-Any and all Tera restrictions short of the full ban
-Banning Pokémon that are unhealthy due to Tera
-Banning Pokémon that are unhealthy irrespective of Tera

Hope that clarifies!
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
'It's physical bulk is mediocre'
Moon: 71 Def
Volc: 65 Def
volcarona commonly invests in physical bulk and has flame body to punish physical attackers and morning sun for reliable recovery. back in pre-HOME it even ran mono-attacking sets w/ will-o-wisp to set up on dragonite n the like. same can't really be said for roaring moon

Eventual tiering action in some form on Gouging Fire seems likely.
yet another dub for the ogerpon nation. we stay winning girlies
 
People comparing the bulk of Moon versus Volc should include all the bulk stats, not just base defense of 71 to 65. Moon has higher HP (105 to 85) and 4 less special defense (101 to 105). Moon actually has pretty decent natural bulk. And for as much as Dark/Dragon has weaknesses, there are also a lot of handy resistances in that natural typing. It's not a glass cannon, particularly when you factor in the Tera wild card.

Volc has to boost to be better at special defense because of the HP difference. Quiver Dance doesn't boost power or speed faster than Dragon Dance does. From a setup standpoint, both snowball similarly. But Moon's turnaround is often faster. And Volc is just as vulnerable to physical attackers and therefore most of the priority in the tier, but without as many resistances to priority as Moon. Flame Body requires a lucky proc, and even at this point, it's basically trading the priority mon for the mon that would have swept their team. Unless Tera. But then both mons can do that.
 
People comparing the bulk of Moon versus Volc should include all the bulk stats, not just base defense of 71 to 65. Moon has higher HP (105 to 85) and 4 less special defense (101 to 105). Moon actually has pretty decent natural bulk. And for as much as Dark/Dragon has weaknesses, there are also a lot of handy resistances in that natural typing. It's not a glass cannon, particularly when you factor in the Tera wild card.

Volc has to boost to be better at special defense because of the HP difference. Quiver Dance doesn't boost power or speed faster than Dragon Dance does. From a setup standpoint, both snowball similarly. But Moon's turnaround is often faster. And Volc is just as vulnerable to physical attackers and therefore most of the priority in the tier, but without as many resistances to priority as Moon. Flame Body requires a lucky proc, and even at this point, it's basically trading the priority mon for the mon that would have swept their team. Unless Tera. But then both mons can do that.
Neither are glass cannons but the fact remains Volcarona has more defensive utility and runs bulky sets often. Plus, it resists U-Turn and can cripple physical attackers with Flame Body.

Volcarona is not susceptible to our priority options at all:

Grassy Glide - 4X resist. Threatens Rilla back with death and burns

Extremespeed - threatens burn to Dragonite and doesn’t do much to bulky Volcs until Dragonite obtains boosts. Furthermore, Dragonite doesn’t want to Tera here as it loses its typing advantage.

Ice Shard - Resists and threatens burn. Bulky Volc is a soft Weavile check

Sucker Punch - Volc threatens burn or further set up and kills Kingambit unless it Teras

Thunderclap - set up fodder. Volc is at +2/+2/+2 and probably ran away with the game already

Bullet Punch - lol. Volc takes a dump on Scizor.

Aqua Jet - doesn’t really exist and users Sam-H / Azumarill / Crawdaunt / Barraskewda all lose to coverage and Tera options.

This is what we've been doing the whole generation, except 1. Number 2 is clunky if outright gimmicky and that ship has long passed anyways(banning specific teras on specific Pokemon would have been the dream)
“This is what we’ve been doing the whole generation, except 1 and 2.”

Bruh
 
RaikouLover This is the most relevant post regarding restrictions to tera. I think they are wrong with the expression tera allows as everything is pretty well figured by now. Tera Dragon Volcorona is probably the last good example what veti was referring to but every defensive tera is either Fairy, Poison, and Steel.
I agree that the restrictions aren’t great options. However, I am open to any and all action on Tera. I will take even a Tera Blast ban over nothing at all. I don’t buy that the only options shall be no action or outright ban as the only paths forward.
 
I agree that the restrictions aren’t great options. However, I am open to any and all action on Tera. I will take even a Tera Blast ban over nothing at all. I don’t buy that the only options shall be no action or outright ban as the only paths forward.
A Tera Blast ban is the only non-shitty Tera restriction. Tera Preview would lead to a lot of stomp matchups since you'd be telegraphing all your counterplay in the builder, which would reduce skill expression. I'm happy that the survey clarified action on Tera this time as implementing a restriction or a ban as I don't believe it did last time, so this is a positive step forward.
 
Neither are glass cannons but the fact remains Volcarona has more defensive utility and runs bulky sets often. Plus, it resists U-Turn and can cripple physical attackers with Flame Body.
The issue is that things with Moon's power and speed tier are typically supposed to be balanced by low defenses. This isn't exactly the case, so I don't know why so many folks seem to think it is balanced.

Volcorona's base 100 speed tier is not fast enough in gen 9 for a +1 to be nearly as immediately threatening. It has some defensive utility, but it isn't exactly bulky without investment.

Volcarona is not susceptible to our priority options at all:

Grassy Glide - 4X resist. Threatens Rilla back with death and burns

Extremespeed - threatens burn to Dragonite and doesn’t do much to bulky Volcs until Dragonite obtains boosts. Furthermore, Dragonite doesn’t want to Tera here as it loses its typing advantage.

Ice Shard - Resists and threatens burn. Bulky Volc is a soft Weavile check

Sucker Punch - Volc threatens burn or further set up and kills Kingambit unless it Teras

Thunderclap - set up fodder. Volc is at +2/+2/+2 and probably ran away with the game already

Bullet Punch - lol. Volc takes a dump on Scizor.

Aqua Jet - doesn’t really exist and users Sam-H / Azumarill / Crawdaunt / Barraskewda all lose to coverage and Tera options.
E-speed Dragonite is actually pretty good against Volc and can often use Volc as setup fodder itself. Sucker Punch also does a lot of damage except in the case of like Tera Fairy. You do play some Sucker Punch mind games, but Volc isn't exactly taking dark STAB from Gambit very easily.

Both Dragonite and Kingambit hate burn, but this is a roll, not a guarantee. Again, crippling one sweeper or revenge killer to avoid being swept seems reasonable. And the crippling is just a chance, far from a guarantee.

Aqua Jet primarily fell off due to the combination of Waterpon and all the Dragons in the tier. In prior iterations of the metagame, it was enough of a threat for Volc to often run Tera Grass. I could see Aqua Jet coming back if Waterpon gets banned.

Meanwhile, Roaring Moon's natural typing resists Grassy Glide, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch, Thunderclap, and Shadow Sneak. Only Ice, Fighting, Normal priority are really reliable to hit Moon neutrally or super effectively. I guess Bullet Punch, but Scizor isn't exactly the best these days. Tera Flying counters Fighting and the very rare First Impression while providing strong offense. Other Tera options could cover other things. Steel used to be common for E-speed, Ice Shard, and Bullet Punch, for example, and could be used to hit fairies.

I do think both of these pokemon are problematic in a Tera metagame because they can use it to get an extra turn to setup and snowball. Priority that you might bring to check one or the other won't necesarrily be reliable. But if you are asking me which one is more resistant to being revenge killed after only 1 turn of setup, it's clearly Roaring Moon. It has better stats for bulk, a far superior speed tier, and a greater number of important natural priority resistances, unless you want to count like First Impression as important. You can also often use a Choice Scarf or Energy Boost speed mon to outspeed a +1 Volc. This doesn't happen much at Moon's speed tier. It's often priority for Moon or nothing, and it resists too much priority.
 
I believe Volcarona is more broken than Moon for 3 main reasons:

1. QD boosting its special bulk and the option for bulky sets. The counterplay between the "offensive" and "bulky" sets varies somewhat. Defensive typing is very good.
2. Flame Body punishing... a lot.
3. Special walls tend to be a bit passive and exploitable by either Volc itself or a teammate. Non-Psyshock Glowking is almost setup fodder, for example.
3 again. Tera variety. With Moon, it's always Flying. With Volc, you need to consider Grass, Ground, Dragon, Fairy, Water, and other niche options like Poison and Steel.

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