Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

It takes 2 turns for these calcs... Also, these calcs actually undersell Espathra, 'cause the peacock will literally buff its Stored Power whilst you're taking chunks. The Heatran and Treads calcs are actually 2HKOs, due to the increase in Speed.

Can you list out some mons that tank Espathra's hits and do enough damage back? The only things that resist Psychic are Steel and Psychic. List some Psychics for me, 'cause all the OU Steels are in Heatranator's original calcs.
Yeahh, the biggest defensive loss from a tera ban imo is amnesia tera steel clod. Even Calm Mind Blissey will eventually get plowed through by Espathra. Psyspam in general gets better, I think.
 
It takes 2 turns for these calcs... Also, these calcs actually undersell Espathra, 'cause the peacock will literally buff its Stored Power whilst you're taking chunks. The Heatran and Treads calcs are actually 2HKOs, due to the increase in Speed.

Can you list out some mons that tank Espathra's hits and do enough damage back? The only things that resist Psychic are Steel and Psychic. List some Psychics for me, 'cause all the OU Steels are in Heatranator's original calcs.
That reminds me of a funny Ubers game I played. I was running agility last respects Basculegion webs HO (I’ll beg for forgiveness later) and on the first turn of the game I skill swapped off speed boost from my opponent’s espathra. Anyway, talking about waterpon, I don’t think it should be banned, since yes it’s hard to wall, but while base 110 speed is above average, it’s certainly not amazing. It’s easy enough to revenge. I feel like where the most complaints are coming from are people complaining about it against balance, which is true, it’s hard to check on balance, but at the same time, just switch your speed control option to deal with waterpon. I feel like it’s not even close to as broken as gouging, which is a five for me currently. I also see 17 other users ready to yell at me for my honest opinion, so before you type out a scathing paragraph, please chill. This isn’t supposed to be a toxic forum.
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
agility last respects Basculegion webs HO (I’ll beg for forgiveness later)
No its fine man its Ubers not OU if it was then we would all be demanding for you to delete your account
I feel like where the most complaints are coming from are people complaining about it against balance
NGL I'm pretty sure why Wogre has supporters warranting either a suspect/ban, because its really hard to counter on balance.
 

j0nathan

formerly trainer_j0nathan
I think we should ban Tera. It’s just too restrictive on the team builder. In past gens, if you had a revenge killer, it would revenge what you would expect it to. Now, your opponent just Teras and gets rid of your main speed control option. It’s too broken imo.
Tera has been here the whole generation. Its just part of SV now. You can a play a lot of metagames without Tera.
 
No its fine man its Ubers not OU if it was then we would all be demanding for you to delete your account

NGL I'm pretty sure why Wogre has supporters warranting either a suspect/ban, because its really hard to counter on balance.
lol people want to ban last respects in Ubers because of that funny fish. I do know that waterpon is hard to check for balance, but honestly if we want to make balance better we could be petitioning to ban the monster that 2HKOes Dondozo on a resist, which would help out balance much more.
 
Tera has been here the whole generation. Its just part of SV now. You can a play a lot of metagames without Tera.
We banned dynamax in Gen 8. I do acknowledge these are different cases though. I do think that dynamax was in Gen 8 for longer than Tera Gen 9, but correct me if I’m wrong.
 
lol people want to ban last respects in Ubers because of that funny fish. I do know that waterpon is hard to check for balance, but honestly if we want to make balance better we could be petitioning to ban the monster that 2HKOes Dondozo on a resist, which would help out balance much more.
“Funny Fish” is the most annoying thing to face in Ubers. I’ll take unwallable Miraidon, impossible to stop Scale Shot Koraidon, and whatever else. Just take away the Last Respects fish I beg!
 
Tera has been here the whole generation. Its just part of SV now. You can a play a lot of metagames without Tera.
Just because something has been apart of the gen for a while doesn’t mean it can’t be removed, sneasler is one example, been here since home but only got banned in dlc1, baxcalibur also got banned despite also being here for a while.

Saying Tera can’t be removed or restricted is just wrong on a fundamental level.
 

j0nathan

formerly trainer_j0nathan
Just because something has been apart of the gen for a while doesn’t mean it can’t be removed, sneasler is one example, been here since home but only got banned in dlc1, baxcalibur also got banned despite also being here for a while.

Saying Tera can’t be removed or restricted is just wrong on a fundamental level.
Thats different. You can't compare sneasler (a pokemon) and tera (a generational gimmick).
Why is that wrong?
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
We banned dynamax in Gen 8. I do acknowledge these are different cases though. I do think that dynamax was in Gen 8 for longer than Tera Gen 9, but correct me if I’m wrong.
Dynamax was on another level than Tera. Getting at least 3 boosts per Dynamax is way more broken than changing types, plus your HP was doubled and you get overpowered versions of your moves.You can't say that because Dynamax got banned Tera shoud be banned.
 
It may not beat gambit and heatran, but everything else gets destroyed by stored power+ dazzling gleam. Ghold which resists it's stab will eventually be defeated by enough boosts. Reminder that it gets more powerful each turn just by existing.
Some calcs:
(long list of calcs cut for brevity)
I think it's pretty telling that even at the worst case scenario where you've let Espathra set up 2 calm minds it STILL doesn't OHKO any of our steel types. And almost everything 2HKOs it back:
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Speed Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Espathra: 102-121 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage (to match your own 3HKO)
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Espathra: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espathra: 470-554 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (also this is with no allies fainted lmao)

plus you have emergency checks in skarm and ting-lu that can ww it out
+2 252+ SpA Espathra Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 282-333 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 202-238 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And I feel the need to reiterate, you have massively misplayed if you are in this situation. You let espathra get in and set up 2 calm minds for free without any damage on it, and you still have ways out of the situation, particularly in top metagame threat Gambit. And don't even talk to me about aurora veil or screens. Can you not see how the pokemon whose whole gimmick is gaining power by surviving more turns has negative synergy with limited screen turns? In your proposed scenario you've already used half of your screen turns simply setting up, which when you do inevitably fall leaves you needing to re-set up screens.

I really can't see espathra without tera being scary at all. If anything it's a worse version of several calm mind stored power sweepers we have now, like Lati@s or Iron Crown, since they actually have all of coverage, bulk, and power. If you let them get 2 calm minds up, chances are the game is over already, which is a far cry from espathra. Without tera, I'd even wager it wouldn't even be an OU pokemon.
 
A tera ban wouldn't require a total reset of the meta. Only about three mons were broken by tera. Those are regieleki, terapagos and esparthra (though I would say espathra was ban worthy without tera, but others disagree.) Every other mon was broken without tera, and maybe I'm missing one, but I don't think something like urshifu-rs was broken by tera.
i've already gone over multiple times why it wouldn't in fact warrant a total reset of the meta. in my opinion, only four mons are worth dropping without tera: espathra, regieleki, firepon, and terapagos. i think espathra and firepon would still be too much for the tier to handle and would be rebanned, but they're worth at least trying out in the unlikely event of a tera ban. every other banned mon does extremely stupid things independent of tera and shouldn't be considered for a drop
Both of these replies view Terastalize in an extremely small vacuum and both use a piece of rhetoric that's been bothering me lately - these are two semi separate topics but let's explore them

first off a Tera ban would 1000% completely reset the meta, and looking at this from the framework of "list of Pokémon banned" is absurdly short sighted, with it the amount of damage every single Pokémon can do with all coverage and STAB moves changes, defensive answers to every single offensive threat change, the amount of set options every single Pokémon has changes, the defensive presence of every single Pokémon changes. This affects the viability of every Pokémon and the matchups between every single Pokémon. When viability changes, the pool of splashable counterplay changes. The viability of every single Pokémon in SV OU is intrinsically linked with Tera and giving a paper thin list Pokémon that actively use Tera Blast or have Tera based forms and citing this as "the only Pokémon affected by a Tera ban" is an absolute joke - please analyze this tier outside of the framework of bans. Or, keep going, but understand that with defensive answers to EVERYTHING being more limited and offensive options of everything being more limited, more than 4 Pokémon will be affected and a hell of a lot more bans or lack thereof will have to be reconsidered.

Building off that there's this trend to say "only 3-4 Pokémon have been broken by Tera and Tera alone" which is a hilarious undercount because of every Pokémon that has been banned, for almost all, "it can Tera out of its counterplay" has been at least a factor, it's never "the reason a Pokémon is banned" which is where these very conservative lists created by pro Tera users come from, which does make sense as every Pokémon is able to do this, but this simply is a universal truth that makes stronger Pokémon much more threatening. Archaludon and Gouging Fire are excellent examples of this, obviously Tera is not the REASON these Pokémon have been problematic, but the ability for Arch to become a Fairy as a last ditch effort to take another kill was certainly a contributing factor, and Gouging has a very threatening toolkit alone between stats and moves, but is pushed further over the edge by the ability to handpick the Pokémon that beat it through choosing between Fairy, Poison, etc - while these certainly aren't Pokémon that "are broken because of Tera" their viability and options change without Tera and how they fit into the metagame, eg if they are banned, will need to be reconsidered. Another example of these considerations, you say Hearthflame is balanced without Tera, I say cap because wtf do you do vs it without the ability to become a dragon or fire dude

So in short, before making claims like these, please look a little closer about how Tera affects our game and the impact removing it would have because takes like these are common despite being very short sighted
 
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No its fine man its Ubers not OU if it was then we would all be demanding for you to delete your account

NGL I'm pretty sure why Wogre has supporters warranting either a suspect/ban, because its really hard to counter on balance.
I am fairly certain that would be the response of ubers player base aswell as Mon is broken as f
 
So there weren't huge shifts in the tier other than Deoxys dropping. Also Ogerpon is rising up in usage, won't be surprised if it returns to top 10 next month.

These 4 are knocking the gates of UU, especially Serp, its been lingering in the limits the past 2 months.

| 40 | Meowscarada | 5.398% |
| 41 | Heatran | 5.104% |
| 42 | Iron Boulder | 4.690% |
| 43 | Serperior | 4.686%
 
So there wasn't huge shifts in the tier other than Deoxys dropping. Also Ogerpon is rising up in usage, won't be surprised if it returns to top 10 next month.

These 4 are knocking the gates of UU, especially Serp, its been lingering in the limits the past 2 months.

| 40 | Meowscarada | 5.398% |
| 41 | Heatran | 5.104% |
| 42 | Iron Boulder | 4.690% |
| 43 | Serperior | 4.686%
Hopefully Heatran falls. Fuck that Mon, he must be either irrelevant and unused or broken and banned, no in-between. His crimes historial is too big. Weird to see Serperior and Boulder this low though, both are very good Mons and completely underexplored, no one has been using the broken Boulder sets yet.
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
today deo-S starts UU, tomorrow it gets sent to ubers. start labbing y'all, we gotta break this thing for the sake of tradition

Hopefully Heatran falls. Fuck that Mon, he must be either irrelevant and unused or broken and banned, no in-between. His crimes historial is too big.
volcarona rolls worst bait ever, asked to leave SV OU metagame discussion thread
 

j0nathan

formerly trainer_j0nathan
Hopefully Heatran falls. Fuck that Mon, he must be either irrelevant and unused or broken and banned, no in-between. His crimes historial is too big. Weird to see Serperior and Boulder this low though, both are very good Mons and completely underexplored, no one has been using the broken Boulder sets yet.
Heatranator
This will make you sad.
 

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