Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Chat, what are your thoughts on Synthesis Waterpon? I find it helps to alleviate the pressure that hazards put on it, and dropping SD isn't so bad considering your natural offensive power. Waterpon can force a switch, threatening Ivy Cudgel or whatever, and Synthesis, healing up for free. I had been running Superpower to hit Arch and guaranteed OHKO Moon, but after Arch's ban I do think Play Rough is better.

Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Synthesis

:ogerpon-wellspring::ogerpon-wellspring::ogerpon-wellspring:
I have considered this type of set before, but not these moves in specific. I was thinking more of an Ivy Cudgel + Knock + Synthesis as your standard moves, and then anything ranging from taunt to spikes to encore to another attacking move like play rough or horn leech (I hate power whip). Taunt is what I wanted to test because it could be really annoying against defensive teams, especially with knock off. I think it's very underexplored though, and maybe could be really strong or broken, even. Sort of reminds me of utility Kartana with synthesis defog or something alone those lines.

Dozo needs to run physdef to perform well in OU for a lot reasons, SpDef Dozo is barely real, and they all run curse now to deal with several of the potent breakers in the tier.
I would say that yeah, physically defensive Dondozo is best, but spdef Dozo is actually really underrated at the moment. It beats non-giga drain Volcarona, psyshock Gholdengo if you can avoid some spdef drops (this is the big reason why I have been using spdef Dozo lately), and some Iron Valiant sets lacking thunderbolt, although it does get sketchy and I only do it in a pinch. Aside from that, it's still pretty good at beating some physicals, such as Dragonite lacking encore, select Gouging Fire sets, bulk up Tusk, Iron "Fraud" Boulder, Weavile if you can eat the knock off, and Zamazenta. It can also 1v1 Kingambit if you can get the sequencing right, but you'd need a backup answer.

Personally, I think an underrated path, especially for stall, is to use Dondozo with spdef and use a flame body wisp mon like Talonflame, Moltres, or Volcarona. Even if Kingambit teras into a fire type, it becomes weak to hazards and you can toxic it with Gliscor, as well as the fact that Dondozo can 1v1 in a pinch. Basically, this approach tries to compress as much as possible to try and justify dropping Clodsire, so you get one whole slot to do whatever patching you want. You can add another knock absorber, a copium answer to Waterpon, or even a really funny progress forcer like knock synthesis Serperior. I like trying to justify this approach by slotting in Amoonguss and using it as the main regenerator for the team, then supporting the Roaring Moon matchup with sticky barb Clefable.

Not as popular, yes, but I still think it's quite underrated and has some really cool options going this path in terms of compression that it offers.

But yeah I agree, the Gouging Fire vs Dondozo in sun calc is sorta a meme at this point, it doesn't happen that much and it still has counterplay to it on stall even if it trucks Dondozo (it literally kills itself to hazards and recoil if it clicks flare blitz, gets stalled by wish tect Mola a little, 1v1'd by phys def curse Dondozo, you will lose to sun anyways as stall if you don't make the right plays to actually force progress and opt to play as a passive sitting duck instead). Not to say that I think it's balanced, rather that the problematic set isn't the band set in my opinion, but the dragon dance ones.
 
I have considered this type of set before, but not these moves in specific. I was thinking more of an Ivy Cudgel + Knock + Synthesis as your standard moves, and then anything ranging from taunt to spikes to encore to another attacking move like play rough or horn leech (I hate power whip). Taunt is what I wanted to test because it could be really annoying against defensive teams, especially with knock off. I think it's very underexplored though, and maybe could be really strong or broken, even. Sort of reminds me of utility Kartana with synthesis defog or something alone those lines.



I would say that yeah, physically defensive Dondozo is best, but spdef Dozo is actually really underrated at the moment. It beats non-giga drain Volcarona, psyshock Gholdengo if you can avoid some spdef drops (this is the big reason why I have been using spdef Dozo lately), and some Iron Valiant sets lacking thunderbolt, although it does get sketchy and I only do it in a pinch. Aside from that, it's still pretty good at beating some physicals, such as Dragonite lacking encore, select Gouging Fire sets, bulk up Tusk, Iron "Fraud" Boulder, Weavile if you can eat the knock off, and Zamazenta. It can also 1v1 Kingambit if you can get the sequencing right, but you'd need a backup answer.

Personally, I think an underrated path, especially for stall, is to use Dondozo with spdef and use a flame body wisp mon like Talonflame, Moltres, or Volcarona. Even if Kingambit teras into a fire type, it becomes weak to hazards and you can toxic it with Gliscor, as well as the fact that Dondozo can 1v1 in a pinch. Basically, this approach tries to compress as much as possible to try and justify dropping Clodsire, so you get one whole slot to do whatever patching you want. You can add another knock absorber, a copium answer to Waterpon, or even a really funny progress forcer like knock synthesis Serperior. I like trying to justify this approach by slotting in Amoonguss and using it as the main regenerator for the team, then supporting the Roaring Moon matchup with sticky barb Clefable.

Not as popular, yes, but I still think it's quite underrated and has some really cool options going this path in terms of compression that it offers.

But yeah I agree, the Gouging Fire vs Dondozo in sun calc is sorta a meme at this point, it doesn't happen that much and it still has counterplay to it on stall even if it trucks Dondozo (it literally kills itself to hazards and recoil if it clicks flare blitz, gets stalled by wish tect Mola a little, 1v1'd by phys def curse Dondozo, you will lose to sun anyways as stall if you don't make the right plays to actually force progress and opt to play as a passive sitting duck instead). Not to say that I think it's balanced, rather that the problematic set isn't the band set in my opinion, but the dragon dance ones.
i almost threw a "unless you're Quacc" before the SpDef Dozo point lmao. That Ghold matchup definitely sounds helpful as does trying to cut Clodsire! Amoong actually seems very desirable on stall right now if you manage to fit it - the team you're describing sounds pretty sweet too. I remember you used SpDef Dozo on your suicune team which was pretty cool (I found it harder than most stall to pick up and play but I've been stalling less lately so may just be me)
 
We have all seen this meme calc. Dozo needs to run physdef to perform well in OU for a lot reasons, SpDef Dozo is barely real, and they all run curse now to deal with several of the potent breakers in the tier. Gouging is a pretty fucked up mon for a lot of reasons but honestly this set specifically is not very well optimized for non-Dondozo matchups and is also at the end of the day pretty comparable to tusk and roaring moon running similar sets

overall this calc has been seen by literally everyone and is not particularly relevant to metagame discussion
I think the overall point is fair, but I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss this as a meme calc. Yes physically defensive Dondozo is the optimal set in this meta, but a huge part of the reason why it is is due to the possibility of sun breaker Gouging being able to run over it otherwise. A water type with 150/115 physical bulk having to run more than just max HP to avoid a 2HKO from a fire move with no setup turns bar a sun setter switchin is inherently ridiculous, and is something that a) not everyone does in fact know, and b) bears repeating as we are about to head into the suspect of Gouging Fire. Yes it’s not close to the optimal Gouging Fire set, but it’s a set that exists, and it means that this incredible bulky setup sweeper also doubles as a breaker with essentially no counters and barely any good checks if it chooses to. Let’s not get complacent about this.
 
I'm yet to ever get reqs, but I am approaching that level. i really dont feel strongly about gouging fire so IF i were to get reqs this time i have no idea which way id go. I'm leaning towards this being the incorrect thing to ban but we'll see. I'm eager to hear everyone elses opinions beyond "RaGiNg FuRy ToO StRoNg In sUn"
 
Rain teams go brrrr.
Still amazing in the meta, using a rain team right now to get reqs, will probably vote Ban on gouging, its one less thing that we have to take account for in the builder that can dominate teams that don't ultra prepare for it.
 
Or maybe you know. the qualified playerbase that regularly plays on the high ladder or tours and can consistently get reqs have a better understanding of the metagame than a 1300s player who thinks Rillaboom is broken.

Even though some have controversial takes, their takes come from experience and have convincing evidence to support them, rather than pulling shit out of their ass.

Gambit is 50/50 for me in terms of brokeness, but for Ghold, it clear why the qualified playerbase is less adamant about it. They are just much better at dealing with hazards and they also don’t mind the few options for hazard removal as long as they’re good. Team structures with multiple Spike immune pokes like Lando or Dnite and offensive powerhouses backed up by Tusk ruins Superman Balances that rely on hazard stacking to win. They simply aren’t that good rn in the current landscape, and the qualified playerbase was willing to adapt. Ghold itself gets pressured by several Fire, Dark, and Ground types in the tier. There is a reason why it is now 7th in usage instead of 3rd or 4th.

I made a guide on Spikes a few days ago if you haven’t checked it out.
I'm not the guy who thinks Rillaboom is broken??? You're trying to shit on me for my opinions but you somehow chose one that I don't even have. You could have gone with my bloodmoon take, my old gouging fire take, my archaludon take, basically anything. But regardless of that, Gambit has completely warped the metagame around it to the detriment of us all, and Gholdengo means that hazard removal isn't actually real. There isn't a single hazard remover bar talonflame that can also beat gholdengo. (No Patrick, Mold Breaker Hawlucha isn't real)

Ban for Gouging Fire. Doesn’t feel overwhelming to me but is still a general pain the arse in a meta full of pains in the arses.

Btw, I’m already seeing more Garganacl on the ladder. I told y’all this piece of shit is broken and will make a comeback.
mfw good pokemon isn't completely dominated by 1 pokemon in the best teamstyle anymore
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I'm not the guy who thinks Rillaboom is broken??? You're trying to shit on me for my opinions but you somehow chose one that I don't even have.
I wasn’t referring to you when I talked about the guy who said Rilla was broken. It was just a hypothetical example based off someone voting for action on Rilla in the survey. I do apologize if the sentence structure was confusing.

The main point was that even for some of their disagreeable takes, top players have a better understanding of the metagame than someone playing on the ladder for the first time.

That doesn’t mean everyone below the 1600s should have their opinions muted, but there is a reason the reqs system exists for voters.

As for the Ghold debacle, we’ve seen a notable drop of usage this month from number 3 to number 7. We could take an educated guess as to why.

Several strong Dark, Fire, and Ground types that threaten Ghold. Hazard stacking teams ditching Ghold for Dragapult or no spinblocker at all. As well as more players realizing the limited hazard removal we do have is still really good. Cinderace hard punishes Gliscor Balances with Tera Ice Blast. Tusk 2HKOs Gliscor on the switch with Spinner, and Skarm is an easy mon to exploit. Ting-Lu is very bulky, but wants all that HP to keep checking Tusk’s teammates and hates losing Lefties. Hatterene shits on most hazard setters minus Samurott.

The Ghold/Tusk dynamic reminds me of Gengar/Claydol in ADV. Gengar can technically keep it from getting spikes off, but doesn’t want to switch into Psychic.
 
Ban for Gouging Fire. Doesn’t feel overwhelming to me but is still a general pain the arse in a meta full of pains in the arses.

Btw, I’m already seeing more Garganacl on the ladder. I told y’all this piece of shit is broken and will make a comeback.
Garg is solid into a lot of common shit rn, namely Gouging Fire, which gets destroyed by Tera Water Curse. Tera Fairy is really nice as a secondary check for Kyurem and Roaring Moon as well. Tera Grass is also one of the best Waterpon answers out there. Imo we will continue seeing an explosion in garg results, at least as long as gliscor & Spikes usage stocks stay down.
 
I wasn’t referring to you when I talked about the guy who said Rilla was broken. It was just a hypothetical example based off someone voting for action on Rilla in the survey. I do apologize if the sentence structure was confusing.

The main point was that even for some of their disagreeable takes, top players have a better understanding of the metagame than someone playing on the ladder for the first time.

That doesn’t mean everyone below the 1600s should have their opinions muted, but there is a reason the reqs system exists for voters.

As for the Ghold debacle, we’ve seen a notable drop of usage this month from number 3 to number 7. We could take an educated guess as to why.

Several strong Dark, Fire, and Ground types that threaten Ghold. Hazard stacking teams ditching Ghold for Dragapult or no spinblocker at all. As well as more players realizing the limited hazard removal we do have is still really good. Cinderace hard punishes Gliscor Balances with Tera Ice Blast. Tusk 2HKOs Gliscor on the switch with Spinner, and Skarm is an easy mon to exploit. Ting-Lu is very bulky, but wants all that HP to keep checking Tusk’s teammates and hates losing Lefties. Hatterene shits on most hazard setters minus Samurott.

The Ghold/Tusk dynamic reminds me of Gengar/Claydol in ADV. Gengar can technically keep it from getting spikes off, but doesn’t want to switch into Psychic.
Yeah fair enough. I do think that Ghold leaving would be an objective boon to the metagame but I will agree that the hazard removal thing is more nuanced than I'm saying. Man I just miss gen 7 defog distro...
 
Ban for Gouging Fire. Doesn’t feel overwhelming to me but is still a general pain the arse in a meta full of pains in the arses.

Btw, I’m already seeing more Garganacl on the ladder. I told y’all this piece of shit is broken and will make a comeback.
bruv they put garg on the survey almost specifically only for you and it came back showing that nobody gives two shits about salty kong. do u get off on being a contrarian?

on an unrelated note, hats to the wind for ht entei, im gonna miss it but it has to go like yesterday
 

FayaWizard

Amnesia
is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I think that Gouging Fire is clearly going to go (I mean when Storm Zone is calling for its ban you know its long gone), so let's talk about the second-highest rated mon on the survey, Ogerpon-Wellspring.

With the freedom to run Play Rough for any dragon that wants to switch in, or slotting on the old Encore sets, Ogerpon has become a terrifying mon that can run rampant over teams if given the chance. However, it cannot outspeed the faster threats like Roaring Moon or Iron Valiant, which holds it back greatly (if it had base Ogerpon's speed boosting ability it would 100% be too much for the tier). I believe it should still be suspected, but what do y'all think?
 
I think that Gouging Fire is clearly going to go (I mean when Storm Zone is calling for its ban you know its long gone), so let's talk about the second-highest rated mon on the survey, Ogerpon-Wellspring.

With the freedom to run Play Rough for any dragon that wants to switch in, or slotting on the old Encore sets, Ogerpon has become a terrifying mon that can run rampant over teams if given the chance. However, it cannot outspeed the faster threats like Roaring Moon or Iron Valiant, which holds it back greatly (if it had base Ogerpon's speed boosting ability it would 100% be too much for the tier). I believe it should still be suspected, but what do y'all think?
agreed. Gouging Fire is going to be a very "ok so what changed exactly" ban while wellspring's extremely oppressive presence is most felt on ladder
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I think it would be insanely funny if for the single day Koraidon was in OU it was actually stupidly easy to handle. It objectively won't happen but there's a non-zero chance and it would be funny
Koraifraud gets owned by Dachsbun, easy unban for me same with Gouging Fraud. OU community really needs to experiment and think outside the box more, Dachsbun nation rise up :blobpex:
 
bruv they put garg on the survey almost specifically only for you and it came back showing that nobody gives two shits about salty kong. do u get off on being a contrarian?
Thank you for the compliment. I’m flattered that the council decided to put Garganacl on the survey just for an unqualified user such as myself.

Bookmark this post. Y’all will be crying for mercy once Garg creeps back into consistent usage and we’re stuck using Covert Cloak Amonguss to deal with that toxic piece of shit. Once we ban Oger-W, Garg stocks will skyrocket and the pain will be widespread.
 
It's crazy how the meta evolves in ways that pokemon that were called "bad" or "mid" by some people like Wogerpon become a bit problematic. I remember when the DLC2 was released Wogerpon usage fell out to the point that she was in danger to drop to UU, people said she's bad, too many dragons, etc and now 2-3 months later, she's in talks for being a bit too much.

In other news Dragonite is happy that Archaludon left and GG is being suspect tested.
 
Just a small point: I don't know if many of you have realized this, but defensive Pecharunt tends to beat Speed-Boosting Gouging. The numbers are in Pecha's favor.
 

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