Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

just saw a pult set that was similar to this, were they cooking or were they cooking?View attachment 628659
They were cooking a masterful piece of work, making food so delectable that anyone from the seven seas would come to eat it and speak of how great it was. Everyone spoke of how it S tier viability material and how the chef made such an exquisite dish with it, until they actually finally tried it and realized they put a dam choice scarf on it for some reason. This was cooked so horribly even Caseoh would rather eat a salad than whatever this is.

(dear lord i hope people watch that twitch streamer)
 
Is Defog worse on Psychic Terrain? I mean, theoretically yes. But actually not so much in practice. I'm running double terrain because Rillaboom fixes the priority issue. This means that I often have shifting terrain conditions. The only mon I have that is truly reliant on Psychic Terrain besides the setter Indeedee is Polteageist. Something like D-speed can function in and out of it. The main problem with hazards is the Focus Sash on the teapot, T-spikes a little bit, and if hazards get stacked too much. Generally, I would only need one or maybe 2 Defogs in an entire match. This is not so disruptive.

As for Clef, I don't know yet. I'm going to test it. But generally, I want momentum. Momentum doesn't help if you get swept by Moon, though.

Here is the Indeedee set:

Indeedee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Tera Blast
- Trick
- Healing Wish

It must be said that Indeedee is not a real pokemon. It's not OU level. At least Choice Scarf makes it much better on several counts. Against stall or slow defensive mons, you can cripple them with a Trick. Expanding Force also hits pretty hard against mons that don't resist it. You can move before some offensive mons. It just help with speed control. Finally, a faster Healing Wish can make a really good transition into an attacker if you time it well.

The biggest danger with Choice Scarf here is Dark types. They switch in on the Expanding Force and you totally lose momentum. This is worse with Roaring Moon since they get a free DD. But it's bad in general. This also necessitates bringing it in to immediately switch it out far more than is ideal. It's a huge momentum sink, hence the need for pivoting.

The biggest tech I have for this is Tera Blast. In general, I feel like Tera Blast is underexplored as an option on Normal mons. Because it is Normal STAB, you don't necesarrily have to rely on Tera or Expanding Force to do damage. It's not a ton of damage, but it's usable in certain situations. If the Dark type switches in, you have a way to hit it. You can also switch coverage while being choice locked, which can be crucial. Generally, Indeedee isn't typically the mon you want to Tera. But sometimes it is necessary. I have beaten a triple Dark team this way.

I debated on going Tera Ghost or Dark in order to hit ghosts, but I decided it was better to get rid of the Dark types. Once they are out of the way, all the ghosts besides Ghold can lose to Psyspam.
I like the indeedee tech, I keep on forgetting you can use it like that (another thing is that it goes off your highest attacking stat, so for example if you run deo-s and run tera blast fire for example, and you drop your special attack stat, it will then use tera blast as a physical move. A cool niche, but one that doesn't really work that often).
Indeedee also has dazzling gleam if needed, though I don't think that is worth it because the other moves look more important.
I might also recommend going modest for more power, as there aren't too many benchmarks you miss out on (except if you really are concerned about +1 neutral iron jugulis).
The main speed benchmarks you miss out on (modest gets you to 433, while timid gets you to 475) are:
+1 jolly great tusk
+1 quaq
+1 ghold
In return, you have much more firepower, though I don't know any specific calcs that this would apply to.
just saw a pult set that was similar to this, were they cooking or were they cooking?View attachment 628659
Nope, they were burning. Scarf pult is a trap that I have unfortunetely fell victim to. It's just not good, especially scarf curse pult, that's just bad with a capital b.
 
I like the indeedee tech, I keep on forgetting you can use it like that (another thing is that it goes off your highest attacking stat, so for example if you run deo-s and run tera blast fire for example, and you drop your special attack stat, it will then use tera blast as a physical move. A cool niche, but one that doesn't really work that often).
Indeedee also has dazzling gleam if needed, though I don't think that is worth it because the other moves look more important.
I might also recommend going modest for more power, as there aren't too many benchmarks you miss out on (except if you really are concerned about +1 neutral iron jugulis).
The main speed benchmarks you miss out on (modest gets you to 433, while timid gets you to 475) are:
+1 jolly great tusk
+1 quaq
+1 ghold
In return, you have much more firepower, though I don't know any specific calcs that this would apply to.
I haven't felt the Expanding Force damage to be lacking. Beating +1 Tusk is occasionally useful. Out running +1 Gouging Fire, an occasional +1 Kyurem, and Choice Scarf Glimm is also useful. This also limits the BE speed mons I need to force out in other ways, which makes most of those cases much more manageable.

Before Tera Blast, I tried Dazzling Gleam. It didn't do much without the STAB boost. If you are going to need to Tera to get decent damage on it anyways, you might as well just run Fairy Tera Blast. The reason why I didn't is Tera Fighting was better at hitting some Dark Types like Gambit. In general, I don't even bother with Fairy coverage anymore because the Fighting coverage is just generally better for the team. Currently, I have like 5 mons with either Fighting Tera Blast or some Fighting move. If I did put a Fairy mon on the team again, I obviously would still look to use Fairy coverage. But it isn't as necessary as I once thought. I have come to a similar conclusion about Fire types not needing to be on the team.
 
Big volca has gone off to do big things in big ubers, thy legacy will be remembered and returned sooner rather than later

and his influence? Neverending and thus he will never “leave” OU, his agenda will continue to be pushed


oricorio @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dancer
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Revelation Dance
- Roost



Ribombee @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shield Dust
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Tera Blast
- Moonblast
- Stun Spore



Entei @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Scorching Sands
- Rest



Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Defog
- Quiver Dance



Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 124 Def / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Tera Blast
- Substitute
 
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Big volca has gone off to do big things in big ubers, thy legacy will be remembered and returned sooner rather than later

and his influence? Neverending and thus he will never “leave” OU


Oricorio @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dancer
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Revelation Dance
- Roost
1714288324933.png

Venomoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb
- Tera Blast
This is the true volcarona replacement.
 
hatterene has magic bounce for the current meta, making it the best utility volcarona wannabe
pink volcarona? (Hatterene) (F) @ Ganlon Berry
Ability: Healer
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Agility
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss


View attachment 628687
Venomoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb
- Tera Blast
This is the true volcarona replacement.
IMG_3161.jpeg
 
hatterene has magic bounce for the current meta, making it the best utility volcarona wannabe
pink volcarona? (Hatterene) (F) @ Ganlon Berry
Ability: Healer
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Agility
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss



View attachment 628688
Virgin Oricorio Damage:
+1 0 SpA Oricorio Revelation Dance vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Gliscor: 178-210 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0 SpA Tera Ground Oricorio Revelation Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 326-386 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 0 SpA Tera Ground Oricorio Revelation Dance vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 314-372 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Oricorio Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 212-252 (65.2 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Oricorio Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 59-70 (18.2 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
Chad Venomoth Damage:
+1 252+ SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Gliscor: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Venomoth Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 384-452 (112.6 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Tera Ground Venomoth Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 372-438 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 166-196 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 94-111 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 3HKO

Venomoth is so much stronger, and tinted lens means it doesn't have to worry about resists as much.
 

FFK

Phone + Night = prime GAMING
is a Tiering Contributor
Thank you OU community for banning something broken once again, I'm impressed.

Next ban Kyurem please lol, without Volc this mon is really overpowered (even if it was already) and suspect gambit cuz we didn't mention it once since its suspect before dlcs (might make a real post as to why we should ban then in this meta)

Waterpon needs to be seriously discussed asw, let's wait a bit for the meta to adapt, but we should ban smh in 1/2 weeks still with WCoP upcoming
 
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Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
It won’t be.
good.
Call it a hunch but I think Scizor will be good in this new meta. Volc is gone, the legendary birds are still weaker than ever, and dirge + tera fire mons will see less usage. In Volc's absence, we will see more fairy and Grass-types, which scizor profits off of. We'll probably see more Darkspam teams too, which scizor does well vs. It's defensive profile pairs well with many top tiers like Tusk and Dragapult & Bullet punch is more useful than ever to revenge kill the many fast mons like Deo-S, Valiant, Pult, and Roaring Moon. IMO that offensive SD set probably isn't gonna be viable because of how much recoil it's inflicting on itself + no longevity, but I think CB will find a place on more standard teams than in the previous meta, esp given how nice priority is in this meta.
scizor?
I have a bad feeling that it will not.

if the fairy and grass types start seing more play, then it would be more efficient for the meta game to start using more fire-types.

what grass types do you think would start seeing more play any way?
 
good.


scizor?
I have a bad feeling that it will not.

if the fairy and grass types start seing more play, then it would be more efficient for the meta game to start using more fire-types.

what grass types do you think would start seeing more play any way?
Well, that is kinda true, but it would still be better since there is less fire types that stop it. Plus, two fairy types (ribombee doesn't count), primarina and valiant, can beat said fire types. Its like two steps forward and one step back for scizor, it likes losing volc as a check and likes that fairy/grass types are going to be better, but doesn't like other fire types rising in popularity.
Waterpon doesn't benefit too much, serp is still trash and meow is not going to be much better since it destroyed volc with knock. Mainly rillaboom will be increasing in popularity (and to the one person who thinks rilla is broken, you know who you are, no rilla shouldn't be banned) and dealing with it will be more important than ever.

In related news, thinking of adding scizor to a HO team and specifically this set.
Scizor @ Mirror Herb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Knock Off
Kinda like the mirror seed set of zama that was used in SPL one time, this scizor set can benefit off people boosting against it, like dragonite dd'ing against it. Then it can use said boost to run through the opposing team.
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
No one is admitting that Tera as a whole is unhealthy, people believe that Quiver Dance + Flame Body / Swarm + Great Offensive Coverage + Recovery + Incredible offensive stats + An incredible set variety that modifies it's checks and counters at will is unhealthy with Tera.

It's been a year and a half with a Tera metagame, I think Tera Ban advocates kinda need to just bite the bullet here. A change / ban on Terastalisation is not happening, it is at the core of the identity of the Gen 9 Metagame and it's removal flips the entirety of the metagame on it's head, resulting in essentially ground zero, requiring a rebuild from the ground up.

Removing Pokemon to get a healthier metagame is a good thing, people often see bans as a net negative for tiers, with most people wondering how could bans result in anything else than less freedom? The teambuilder opens up greatly when these massive threats get removed, this allows room for multiple options to rise up and gain niches and strengths, usually with 3+ of these now being available.

Basically, bans are good sometimes, and Tera is here to stay
It's been a year and a half with a Tera metagame, I think Tera advocates kinda need to just bite the bullet here. A change / ban on Terastilization will be pushed until the end of this website, it is at the core of the problems with the Gen 9 Metagame and its removal flips the entirety of the metagame on its head, resulting in essentially ground zero, requiring a rebuild from the ground up.

The real battle for the identity of SV OU will not be now, it will be in the years of Policy Review attempting to fix this clusterfuck, see yall in 2032
 

Niko

Sun God
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
World Defender
There very clearly won’t be any chance of action on Tera after the Gen ends; such a substantial change would never, ever be allowed in post-Gen tiering. That’s not how it works or ever will work.
Lol and that's because...?
The tier sucks as it is; if people realizes that Tera ban is what we need a bit too late, why shouldn't it be allowed to ban Tera with enough support? MSableye ban in ORAS also changed deeply the structure of the metagame, such a big change that we are still seeing its consequences 7 years later. Why should it be any different for Tera?
 
i don’t see why post-gen action on tera should be off the cards, when other old gens have also had drastic changes made, and discussion regarding big changes in old gens abounds.

finch, i know you know that removing any combination of weather, spikes, keldeo, latios, reuni, etc from bw would cause a fundamental restructure of the meta, yet i’ve seen you discuss these options extensively many times.

why should tera be given special privileges in this regard? it is simply a game element, after all, and should be subject to the same standards as any others.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
I don’t know why you guys are talking like this is my decision or anything like that. I do not run OGC or own the site, and I am just providing information.

I have always said that whatever the community wants should happen. I have never stood in the way of that. I would bet my entire spot on this website that site ownership wouldn’t allow for that to happen post-generation. They barely let us suspect Tera to begin with during the generation. They weren’t even happy when Dynamax had to go.

As an aside, the comparisons to the components of BW are super misguided and action on them remains unlikely.
 
This suspect happened during the generation itself sir. What you said has nothing to do with what I said.
Sorry to play devil's advocate bc I'm with you on this one but wasn't MegaSableye banned on the last day of ORAS as CGOU? Bad example to nitpick on

I very much think that Tera has a place in our meta but it is true that sooner rather than later we should have a sus regarding it and reach a collective consensus
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Sorry to play devil's advocate bc I'm with you on this one but wasn't MegaSableye banned on the last day of ORAS as CGOU? Bad example to nitpick on
Yes, but the point is the same: suspects during a generation and after are so vastly different. You will never have 100+ people or super active ladders for old generations. Old generation suspects are a few dozen people and largely decided by arbitrary groups of tournament performers. It’s not a nitpick or a bad example so much as you missing the differentiator.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I do see Finch’s point.

Banning Tera to other meta altering changes from past gens (unbanning Latias, banning Arena Trap, banning Sleep) is not the direct comparison as some might think because Tera is much larger fundamentally to the tier. It is like banning Z-Moves in USUM or GSC Lax. It is part of the tier’s identity. More often than not, there is very little support to change major components to old gens, so the council usually doesn’t bother.
 

Clas

pixibursting
is a Tiering Contributor
Lol and that's because...?
The tier sucks as it is; if people realizes that Tera ban is what we need a bit too late, why shouldn't it be allowed to ban Tera with enough support? MSableye ban in ORAS also changed deeply the structure of the metagame, such a big change that we are still seeing its consequences 7 years later. Why should it be any different for Tera?
The tier sucks as is because the balance this gen is shit, not that Tera throws everything out of proportion. We've had 3 or 4 bans that were actually because of Tera, and the rest are just improved by Tera but are even stupider without Tera around because you can't just quickly improve the matchup with a Tera sac. I'll probably have a much longer post with my gripes about the tier, but that might not come before WCOP main stage and I'd really not expect nor suggest to go instantly with the admittedly brazen take I have about the tier on how to improve it because it involves such a drastic shake-up.

Your example of MSab is also not the best either, as it was during ORAS (even if it was effectively in SM time) and relevant steps have since been taken to limit this kind of tiering, not to mention OU has had two different leaders during this time gap. I don't see how this would ever apply to Finch here considering my previous statement.
 
i only raise the bw examples as a counter to the point that oldgen playerbases are staunchly committed against entertaining foundational changes to metas - not as a direct 1-1 (lol). i'd also contend that the drill debacle a few years ago was a tremendous shake up to bw, yet people gave it a go.

as it happens, bw will have been an oldgen for over a decade more than sv will have been by the time g10 comes around. this means that sv will have far more spots in official tours, and a far larger playerbase than bw does at this point. in the event that tera is banned in its entirety post-cg, i find it hard to believe that deducing a new metagame would lead to years of tumult. we know what the good pokemon are, we know their capabilities, we know how they interact with tera & how they would function without it in terms of checks/counters etc. how many times has oras ou completely changed its stripes over the last few years, for example, lol?

last word on the matter, and maybe i'm just a zealot, but i'd much rather address issues with any metagame at any time in the pursuit of competition, as opposed to cordoning off aspects.
 

Niko

Sun God
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
World Defender
I don’t know why you guys are talking like this is my decision or anything like that. I do not run OGC or own the site, and I am just providing information.

I have always said that whatever the community wants should happen. I have never stood in the way of that. I would bet my entire spot on this website that site ownership wouldn’t allow for that to happen post-generation. They barely let us suspect Tera to begin with during the generation. They weren’t even happy when Dynamax had to go.

As an aside, the comparisons to the components of BW are super misguided and action on them remains unlikely.
Please can you identify "they"?
I think the community should know who to refer to when there's someone compromising the normal evolution of the tiering system. So all the time we spend on discussions, suspect tests and policy review becomes totally useless if a couple people that holds the power decides otherwise? People that doesn't even play the game? It's hilarious how fast and ferocious y'all are at silencing regular users that push different views from the ones the council allows, yet how slow you are at opposing to those egoboosted dinosaurs that ruin the game WE play. And if there is some burocratic/legal/economic reason that makes them wish for a certain outcome to happen, I expect them to have the balls to show up and explain it to the community, not to fool us by pretending we have a saying on it.

Thanks for atleast saying the truth this time.
 

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