Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

I want to remind folks that Tera also helps teams react defensively to the threats in this meta.

For example, Tera Grass on Dozo or Tera Flying + Acrobatics on Mola gives slower teams a much-needed check to Waterpon and Rillaboom.

Tera Water on Glowking or Spdef Lando gives balance teams an emergency check to Walking Wake.

Tera Dark lets stall teams check deadly Psyshock users and avoid being torn apart by Future Sight.

And these are just a few examples. Tera isn't just an offense tool, it has immense value defensively. There are more threats to account for in the builder but also more options to check those threats. It's a nuanced mechanic that raises the skill ceiling of Gen 9 OU, IMO for the better.
 
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Nothing against the rest of the post, but unless you use Acrobatics, Mola is not checking Waterpon at all and is in fact a set-up fodder, regardless of Tera.
That's why you use Acrobatics.

But thanks, I edited my post to emphasize that.

As a side note, I've also used Body Slam Mola with decent success. You can bait Waterpon in for a free Body Slam. Then, if you need to, Tera Grass to continue fishing for Body Slam paras. Once Waterpon is paralyzed it's much easier for slower teammates like Tusk to revenge kill.
 
I hope the next ban vote will NOT be about tera as a whole.

Anything but that.
Not anytime soon, possibly never because playerbase is dumb sometimes...

I want to remind folks that Tera also helps teams react defensively to the threats in this meta.

For example, Tera Grass on Dozo or Tera Flying + Acrobatics on Mola gives slower teams a much-needed check to Waterpon and Rillaboom.

Tera Water on Glowking or Spdef Lando gives balance teams an emergency check to Walking Wake.

Tera Dark lets stall teams check deadly Psyshock users and avoid being torn apart by Future Sight.

And these are just a few examples. Tera isn't just an offense tool, it has immense value defensively. There are more threats to account for in the builder but also more options to check those threats. It's a nuanced mechanic that raises the skill ceiling of Gen 9 OU, IMO for the better.
That is true, but the combination of these offensive and defensive things enable too much and ultimately requires too many bans to maintain and makes teambuilding unfun. Not worth keeping at all

What I said is not specific to the Tera conversation, it is in its entirety.

Especially in regards to oldgens like BW. The idea that we must conserve is terrible.

Tera Free tournament isn't good for the same reason that the Gen 8 No Boots tournament isn't good (though it is far better imo, but ultimately most of the issues still apply)- because it isn't the actual metagame, it's not taken as seriously, and most people just reuse teams with minor variations. There was a Tera free tournament and it was ass because:

1. No Council to actively moderate the metagame throughout the weeks, ie. little change or discussion

2. Most people just reused teams

3. It wasn't that serious

Tournaments are best used to test things like a metagame with a Pokemon removed or not, which are most often used in lower tier oldgens. These also often lead to votes, which means that there is some seriousness to the experimentation.

The Gen 8 Boots tour is mostly valid imo still because it's just one element removed, but because a lot of people just reuse teams and don't take it that seriously it hasn't really shown much meta change. In fact I could show you two replays, one from regular Gen 8 OU and one from the tour, and you could probably fail to guess which is which at times.
At this point just test a no tera ladder for only few days that way it doesn't suck away players from SV OU, I think we have gotten to a boiling point with the tier if tera is seeming to be more controversial than the survey suggests because I do see a lot more complaints than the survey suggests.

If we do a temporary no tera ladder though, it should honestly not be up for very long since the problem with seperate ladders staying up is dividing the player base.

A temporary no tera ladder feels necessary at this point, since we already did the discussions from the tiering thread and its still controversial with it still popping up as it really does feel more people are upset with tera than the surveys suggest

If we do this though, it shouldn't last long that way we don't divide the playerbase

I think a temporary no tera ladder should happen at least temporarily just to see how it goes, because it could be eye opening for a lot of players and I think it would quell discussions a bit or restart them

A Temporary no tera ladder sounds like a fine idea honestly and as long as its temporary I don't see it upsetting the playerbase too much, and I think it is the only good way of showing what a no tera meta would be like
 
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People like SV wayyy more than they did generations like BW (and this says a lot coming from me because I loved that tier) or even ORAS during CG. This is just how discourse always goes. It is always going to be contentious and that is ok. It is best that people are highly opinionated anyway.
I think part of this has to do with how beginner friendly SV is in the fact that you can easily scrouge a good bit of dopamine by doing stuff like Gambit reverse sweep, even if you still lose it feels so funny and addicting that it keeps you playing more.

I also feel like Competitive Pokemon and Pokemon in general is getting a bit of a new wind with how much more attention has been coming from stuff like Z-A announcement and more great Competitive content creators.
 
once again people are raising the canard of "generational mechanic", as though it's anything but an unfounded, arbitrary privilege given to elements. such cases should be treated the same way we treat any other aspect of the game, as ultimately, anything introduced by every generation could be given this classification.

we don't apply this standard to hazards, or megas, or problematic fairy types, or any proto/quark mons, or new pokemon, or new unique confluences of previously existing elements eg. futureport - all of which are equally fit to be called "generational mechanics".
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think Tera should be untouched because it's a "generational mechanic" then you better be playing your Gen 5 matches with Wonder Launcher enabled
 
i feel like saying tera lets teams react defensively is similar to the argument that volc gives a defensive utility to teams

sure ur technically correct but its so overwhelmingly used for offense to sweep that it completely dwarfs the defensive usage

maybe tera should have required an item like zmoves.
110% agree. Tera does way more for offense than defense. This includes defensive Tera on setup sweepers giving them an extra turn to setup. The one turn swing in this gen can be so outrageous. There is a reason why like all teams need priority to RK and/or Unaware walls. Tera and Booster Energy caused that.

One of my biggest gripes about Tera is the lack of general restrictions. Megas and Z moves took an items slot so you couldn't just combine that power spike with other items. Dynamax and Z moves have turn limits. Z moves having the most restrictions was a good thing and part of what makes it my favorite generational mechanic. Dynamax ignoring most of what could have been potential counters to it was bad.

I feel like Tera would be a lot easier to balance if there was more opportunity cost than just not getting the most out of abusing the mechanic. Taking up an item slot would mean you couldn't just mindlessly combine it with items like BE, HDB, or Choice Items.

Dynamax had a similar problem with combining increased power and HP with stuff like Life Orb, Assault Vest, or Weakness policy. Taking up an item slot would also solve the choice lock break issue. Not to dwell too much on a past mechanic that also had other issues, such as Max Airstream.

Back to Tera, a lot of the issues the mechanic creates are more subtle and not necessarily as in your face obvious. The rock/paper/scissors esq. typing system is so fundamental to Pokemon that flipping this on its head really messes with a lot of in place systems.
 
People like SV wayyy more than they did generations like BW (and this says a lot coming from me because I loved that tier) or even ORAS during CG. This is just how discourse always goes. It is always going to be contentious and that is ok. It is best that people are highly opinionated anyway.
I speak for myself when I say I'll take dealing with Tera and the rest of the Gen 9 goobers over dealing with permanent rain + scald any day of the week (and to a lesser extent perma sand, but Tyranitar is the goat so I'll live with it). Plus as obnoxious Boots spam is, I rather have that then let the bulk of hazzard counterplay fall on Magic guard guys (Excadrill does put in the work against hazards, but it is its own brand of metagame villain)
 
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Finchinator I'm sorry to insist, but as you were intentionally vague previously, I need to insist. If there are people who are in control of pushing an agenda beyond of metagame and council discussion, what the fuck are their names? I feel it is extremely disappointing that we have been going all gen thinking that the council is at its most transparent (which you and the team have all done a great job to be so) and just now find out that a certain group of people hold the power to schew you in a certain direction. I don't give a single damn about ownership, because Showdown and Smogon is for and by the people. I don't even think a Tera sus at this point in time is the way to go, I'd be fine with there not being a Tera sus at all, but all the people vouching for it, although I may disagree with them, have the same right as you and I do to push for any discussion, and the only way to shut that discussion down should be by, well, actually discussing it, and not "because the ball is mine and I'm going to take the ball and you're not going to play anymore if you don't play how I say", and if that's not the case, I'd appreciate you were much more clear, thorough and specific about this pressure that you're describing.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think Tera should be untouched because it's a "generational mechanic" then you better be playing your Gen 5 matches with Wonder Launcher enabled
Lol, nobody is saying it should be untouched because it's a 'generational mechanic', they are just saying that there should be a higher bar for it getting banned if people want it (they don't btw 25% is not enough and there is no silent majority, also not because its worded "wrongly" also, because it is worded exactly correctly which is do you want to restrict tera or not and do you want to ban tera or not, its simple). Also, comparing tera to the fucking wonder launcher is honestly, just laughable.
I don't think tera should be banned, defensive tera is a godsend in this meta where covering all meta threats is difficult and bans are very difficult to acheive (I'm a bit shocked that volc was banned tbh). Sure, offensive tera, and tera in general, raises the power level, but not many mons are made broken by tera. Only Regieleki, Terapagos (who had its own fucking form), Volcarona and Espathra (who I think would be broken regardless, others think otherwise) are broken due to tera (most are due to tera blast, so a subset of tera at that).
I think RS25802580 put it perfectly, any mon that can offensively threaten you is answered by defensive tera. Waterpon beating your ass? Tera dragon starts beating her ass. Roaring moon acrobating all over your team? Tera steel your tusk and watch that mf die so quickly. Barra is liquidating your entire team, even resists? Tera water your moltres and then hurricane that bastard. Without these defensive options, these threats would be so much harder to deal with, I'd say we'd have to ban more things if tera was banned, now there isn't a button to click if a defensive mon wants to wall it. Every mon that has/might be banned is because it was banworthy even without tera (again, besides a few).
So it then becomes "why are we banning a whole mechanic just to bring back a few mons that we banned?" And I don't know, but that seems a litlle wrong.
 

Finchinator

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Finchinator I'm sorry to insist, but as you were intentionally vague previously, I need to insist.
First off, this is wrong -- I laid it all out in a post already. See below. However, you are not entitled to any information or access. I already spend hours of my time every week being transparent and communicating with you, which far surpasses that of any other leader before. You guys are lucky you get what you do.
Let me make it all as clear as can be:
  • Yes, there is some resistance towards banning generational mechanics that I encountered at the start of the generation.
  • No, it did not stop us from conducting a suspect on Dynamax or Tera.
  • No, there is no reason to believe that would stop us IF a Tera second suspect were to be needed.
  • There is not current support internally or community wise for a Tera suspect.
  • If this changes, I will happily include it in another survey or act on it in the best interest of our players.
  • Post-CG SV OU is a different animal that I think is silly to speculate about, but it would be very unprecedented to see Tera go after the generation and I doubt it would happen personally.
I feel it is extremely disappointing that we have been going all gen thinking that the council is at its most transparent (which you and the team have all done a great job to be so) and just now find out that a certain group of people hold the power to schew you in a certain direction.
This literally is not true and it is not my fault you lack the abiliy to read posts like the one I quoted above. Every suspect and decision has been made through the council. My point is that there is a higher bar for suspets on core mechanics and this is already known from this and last generation.

Site ownership (chaos) has commented on core mechanic suspects before internally, but the only two times it has come up, it has not interfered with our proceedings at all. And it is stupid to speculate motives like traffic or money -- chaos has been transparent about his running of the site, staying out of the way of tiering initiatives.

I think it would potentially be different in a post-CG Tera suspect, which already is unprecedented and hard to justify. This is not cause for you to go down a rabit hole or be rude.
 
there is a conspiracy to keep the thing i dislike. they are being paid off, they are gaining something--because i, personally, do not like it. this is what the pocket monster website gains from this.

big stall is paying off the heads because they keep thing i think is bad. they are making money and have ulterior motives. this is a true, natural, and logical facet. the heads are being intentionally vague and secretive in order to hide the real answers i know are there.

the vans outside my house are gangstalking me. yesterday, i saw garchomp in a park that wore a coat and had sunglasses. i know it was f*nch making sure he knew i know. big tera............. is real...........................
 
I still don't understand what's stopping someone from running a pet mod or alt-metagame that lets players see the otherside of the spectrum even if its briefly, surely we're not that dead of a tier where we can't spend a month to save 2 years of two sides of mental illness echo chambering the same issues, majority of one side will eventually fizzle out from the results.

Members lynched me for saying it before because 'its not the status quo' as if it wasn't in the past; but, how the fuck am I supposed to assume what a teraless metagame looks like when I can only see/ladder on the same tera metagame I've been playing on and despising for the whole generation? Its impossible to do without "being a slippery slope/theorymon" which are meant to be invalid arguments. At this point stop calling it a suspect 'test' cause we're not testing shit we're just smurfing to vote on whatever opinion we individually had months ago regardless of how we're supposed to vote (illusion of choice).

You could convince a lot more and make a stable, less controversial tier by actually visualizing what it looks like after action occurs, especially for a generational mechanic where removing/adding it can be a complete flip on other bans/playstyles that we just cannot see coming or have hard evidence to support claiming. Its clear tera is a controversial matter, and simply showing the alternative would help form a better opinion from anyone on the fence or unable to see the alternative, and if the few still not convinced with the result don't like it, then the generation just isn't for you it be like that play custom 6v6 with others that agree to your own ruleset... but I don't see why we're content with the gen not being for 50% of the playerbase when you have a way to lay to rest which is the definitive better version of the tier.
 
I still don't understand what's stopping someone from running a pet mod or alt-metagame that lets players see the otherside of the spectrum even if its briefly, surely we're not that dead of a tier where we can't spend a month to save 2 years of two sides of mental illness echo chambering the same issues, majority of one side will eventually fizzle out from the results.

Members lynched me for saying it before because 'its not the status quo' as if it wasn't in the past; but, how the fuck am I supposed to assume what a teraless metagame looks like when I can only see/ladder on the same tera metagame I've been playing on and despising for the whole generation? Its impossible to do without "being a slippery slope/theorymon" which are meant to be invalid arguments. At this point stop calling it a suspect 'test' cause we're not testing shit we're just smurfing to vote on whatever opinion we individually had months ago regardless of how we're supposed to vote (illusion of choice).

You could convince a lot more and make a stable, less controversial tier by actually visualizing what it looks like after action occurs, especially for a generational mechanic where removing/adding it can be a complete flip on other bans/playstyles that we just cannot see coming or have hard evidence to support claiming. Its clear tera is a controversial matter, and simply showing the alternative would help form a better opinion from anyone on the fence or unable to see the alternative, and if the few still not convinced with the result don't like it, then the generation just isn't for you it be like that play custom 6v6 with others that agree to your own ruleset... but I don't see why we're content with the gen not being for 50% of the playerbase when you have a way to lay to rest which is the definitive better version of the tier.
Alt-metagames aren't the best way to test things(look at gen6 no scald uu) because people don't really play them. Most people will end up playing the main tier anyways. I think its worth looking at tera, but a no tera ladder doesn't seem like the way to do it
 
>Vocal minority starts making a bigger racket than usual
"GuYs It SeEmS lIkE wE sHoUlD lOoK aT tErA nOw!1!1! LoOk At AlL tHe DiScUsSiOn!"

You can't just "no u" the "non tera people should mostly bite the bullet" post. The issue isn't even whether the mechanic is balanced or not but the fact there literally is not the support you imagine to be there from either the unqualified OR qualified player pool. It isn't happening because people have weighed their opinion survey. after survey. after survey. And despite it all, support for action only goes down over time. The deflection for this, to me, seems to be "uhhh they left the meta I'm SURE more people hate it!" but like, if so, get them to vote on surveys. They're accessible and the thread name changes for it.

Tera action simply does not look to be in the cards unless there is a drastic change in public sentiment from players whose voices actually matter (qualified).
 
>Vocal minority starts making a bigger racket than usual
"GuYs It SeEmS lIkE wE sHoUlD lOoK aT tErA nOw!1!1! LoOk At AlL tHe DiScUsSiOn!"

You can't just "no u" the "non tera people should mostly bite the bullet" post. The issue isn't even whether the mechanic is balanced or not but the fact there literally is not the support you imagine to be there from either the unqualified OR qualified player pool. It isn't happening because people have weighed their opinion survey. after survey. after survey. And despite it all, support for action only goes down over time. The deflection for this, to me, seems to be "uhhh they left the meta I'm SURE more people hate it!" but like, if so, get them to vote on surveys. They're accessible and the thread name changes for it.

Tera action simply does not look to be in the cards unless there is a drastic change in public sentiment from players whose voices actually matter (qualified).
In other words, if you want action get better at the game I guess? And yeah a lot of those people left probably. But you have a point.

I still don't understand what's stopping someone from running a pet mod or alt-metagame that lets players see the otherside of the spectrum even if its briefly, surely we're not that dead of a tier where we can't spend a month to save 2 years of two sides of mental illness echo chambering the same issues, majority of one side will eventually fizzle out from the results.

Members lynched me for saying it before because 'its not the status quo' as if it wasn't in the past; but, how the fuck am I supposed to assume what a teraless metagame looks like when I can only see/ladder on the same tera metagame I've been playing on and despising for the whole generation? Its impossible to do without "being a slippery slope/theorymon" which are meant to be invalid arguments. At this point stop calling it a suspect 'test' cause we're not testing shit we're just smurfing to vote on whatever opinion we individually had months ago regardless of how we're supposed to vote (illusion of choice).

You could convince a lot more and make a stable, less controversial tier by actually visualizing what it looks like after action occurs, especially for a generational mechanic where removing/adding it can be a complete flip on other bans/playstyles that we just cannot see coming or have hard evidence to support claiming. Its clear tera is a controversial matter, and simply showing the alternative would help form a better opinion from anyone on the fence or unable to see the alternative, and if the few still not convinced with the result don't like it, then the generation just isn't for you it be like that play custom 6v6 with others that agree to your own ruleset... but I don't see why we're content with the gen not being for 50% of the playerbase when you have a way to lay to rest which is the definitive better version of the tier.
Well there were attempts to make a temporary no tera ladder that fell through, so I mean we should try that. Technically it is not the best solution but I think if done right it could quell a lot of discussion or start it back up

Let the ladder be around for a couple weeks I guess to end this. I feel as if people cannot really visualize what a non tera OU would be like, so at least showing the playerbase what that would have looked or been like for a little bit seems like a good idea, but I reiterate it would have to be temporary so it doesn't syphon players from the main ladder for too long, that way we don't end up with the no scald ladder situation again

Alt-metagames aren't the best way to test things(look at gen6 no scald uu) because people don't really play them. Most people will end up playing the main tier anyways. I think its worth looking at tera, but a no tera ladder doesn't seem like the way to do it
Well an alt ladder is the most accessible way of allowing players to visualize a no tera meta, since closed and open tournaments aren't always available to everyone. I think a temporary no tera ladder that anyone can play would be the best way to go about it since a meta without would be mechanically altered.

No scald uu wasn't played because it didn't alter the entire metagame, it just a had a single move banned, not a mechanic
 
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Well an alt ladder is the most accessible way of allowing players to visualize a no tera meta, since closed and open tournaments aren't always available to everyone. I think a temporary no tera ladder that anyone can play would be the best way to go about it since a meta without would be mechanically altered.

No scald uu wasn't played because it didn't alter the entire metagame, it just a had a single move banned, not a mechanic
I mean, from what I remember scald was a pretty big component of the metagame, in fact empoleon's or other bulky waters would compete to see who could get a scald burn first. It was also a pretty big reason why seismitoad is pretty good in the meta (A+ rank), it can ignore that entire interaction while spreading burns itself. No scald UU did alter the entire metagame, it's just not to the absolute extreme that removing tera would.
Still though, the point still stands, any alt ladder does not work because normal OU is always the flagship tier of smogon, and a side tier would not be popular enough to get good results. Some people complain about how the normal OU ladder is dead at points, imagine a ladder where you have max 30% size of the OU ladder playing.
 
I still don't understand what's stopping someone from running a pet mod or alt-metagame that lets players see the otherside of the spectrum even if its briefly, surely we're not that dead of a tier where we can't spend a month to save 2 years of two sides of mental illness echo chambering the same issues, majority of one side will eventually fizzle out from the results.

Members lynched me for saying it before because 'its not the status quo' as if it wasn't in the past; but, how the fuck am I supposed to assume what a teraless metagame looks like when I can only see/ladder on the same tera metagame I've been playing on and despising for the whole generation? Its impossible to do without "being a slippery slope/theorymon" which are meant to be invalid arguments. At this point stop calling it a suspect 'test' cause we're not testing shit we're just smurfing to vote on whatever opinion we individually had months ago regardless of how we're supposed to vote (illusion of choice).

You could convince a lot more and make a stable, less controversial tier by actually visualizing what it looks like after action occurs, especially for a generational mechanic where removing/adding it can be a complete flip on other bans/playstyles that we just cannot see coming or have hard evidence to support claiming. Its clear tera is a controversial matter, and simply showing the alternative would help form a better opinion from anyone on the fence or unable to see the alternative, and if the few still not convinced with the result don't like it, then the generation just isn't for you it be like that play custom 6v6 with others that agree to your own ruleset... but I don't see why we're content with the gen not being for 50% of the playerbase when you have a way to lay to rest which is the definitive better version of the tier.
I was originally a fan of this idea too but realized it would have a few issues
  • As cactus and Heatranator said, the number of people playing the Tera-less ladder would be relatively small. It's hard to compare a small/underdeveloped ladder (Tera-less) to a large ladder (Tera).
  • It could take months for the Tera-less tier to stabilize, so this would require a separate council voting on bans or modding suspect reqs. Not sure if that kind of infrastructure is even available; remember, Smogon is run by unpaid volunteers.
  • You wouldn't be able to poll people's approval of one meta vs another due to sample selection bias. Because people who disliked tera from the get-go would flock to the Tera-less meta. Meanwhile, people who like Tera or don't give a shit would stick to the status quo. So, for example, if two months in the Teraless meta scored an 8/10, compared to a 6/10 for the standard meta, it wouldn't really mean anything. Because players are self-selecting into what meta they want, the two metas are not composed of comparable populations of players.
 
In other words, if you want action get better at the game I guess?
Unironically yes. I've only made it to high ladder like once and then plunged back down so I'm not even saying this as someone particularly good or anything, but it isn't really a secret that action is primarily decided on and carried out by the wills of the qualified playerbase. Suspect targets with high qualified scores are (usually) looked at first and the suspect test system is a competency check to see if you are good enough to have an opinion worth a vote.

This still ignores that even the non qualified playerbase in favor of a Tera ban is the minority, but yeah, if you want to make an impact on the tier, the best way to do that is to play well enough to get reqs and act on them. As was discussed in the Volcarona thread, you don't NEED to make your justification for your vote known. If you are good enough, you can, even if marginally, effect the outcome.
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
Not sure if that kind of infrastructure is even available; remember, Smogon is run by unpaid volunteers.
Any argument of "infrastructure" is ridiculous considering the fact that we literally run tiers with Suspect Test voter lists that range from a dozen to maybe two. That, and we have not even that long ago still, had SWSH OU, BDSP OU and NatDex OU (and lower tiers) running at the same time.

If there is a will there will be a way, it's that having an active competitor to OU in a very direct sense is not desirable to staff right now.
 

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