Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

I think thats what a Check means, if i'm correct?
they are technically checks, yes, but they’re shaky at best. a sturdier example of a check, would be dragapult switching in one time vs. urshifu-r in g8. bar, say, random cb ice punch, which people didn’t really run, you could 100% switch in once and threaten it out.

you can pivot around kyurem with the likes of slowking-g, but if you take an earth power/tera ice ice beam, you are instead the one forced out. the next time you switch in, you will be 2hkod by ice beam, for example.
 
View attachment 630267
Filling In The Icy Gap
With Volcarona’s ban, concerns about Kyurem have risen. It is worth noting that Volcarona was never a consistent check. Specs Draco 2HKOs Bulkrona while Boots variants tech Scale Shot or Rock Slide to hit the moth. Today I want to bring attention to some pre-existing checks to Kyurem, as well as some possible routes we could explore in the post-Volc ban meta, especially with this year’s WCOP around the corner.

View attachment 630269
Poison In The Mind
Slowking-G is often cited as a Kyurem check. It avoids a 2HKO from Specs Kyurem Ice Beam and could either status it or Chilly Reception out, while it eats Boots Kyurem’s hits more comfortably. The main counterplay to Specs Kyurem is to limit the switch-ins it gets with rocks and careful manuevering, Glowking is one of the best mons on Balance or BO to achieve that. Glowking will remain a staple on bulkier teams regardless of meta changes.


View attachment 630270
Gazing Upon The Wishing Star
If you’ve played early Gen 8 OU, you remember that SpD Clef was the most common check to Kyurem. In this metagame, SpD Clef does the same and it could be argued it has some merit in Gen 9. It can pivot into Darkrai, and check mixed Valiant, Dragapult, and Deoxys Speed. It also lets it avoid a 2HKO from Glowking Sludge Bomb, so Clef could get up Rocks, a Knock, or a T-Wave. Its Kyurem checking capabilities are still prominent, even if it Teras, a quick Tera Fire or Steel can patch that. Clefable is a mon that benefits from the controlled pace the meta has been taking lately.


View attachment 630271
A Rising Crown
On multiple occasions I’ve discussed Iron Crown. This Pokemon has recently received enough usage to be OU if tier shifts were still done each month. There’s a popular sample team that uses Crown and another factor for its higher usage is cause its quite good rn. Iron Crown is what I would describe as a more offensive version of Glowking. With Volcarona out of the tier, 98 Speed appears more impressive. Outpacing every relevant base 90 and 80 speed mon. Assault Vest checks CM Prima, Glimmora, CM Val, and more importantly, Kyurem. All while providing useful utility with Volt Switch and Future Sight. Specs can 2HKO most of the tier with Tera Steel Tachyon, and even incredibly bulky mons like Ting-Lu or Skeledirge are 3HKOd. Plus in the chance you don’t Tera, Psychic Noise/Future Sight/Psyshock and Volt Switch are still good at breaking holes. Being a Steel type also gives it ample switch-in opportunities, taking minimal chip from SR and switching into Moonblasts, Toxics, and Dracos. It fits a specific mold that Glowking and Ghold cannot, the main reason being that speed tier. Another cool thing about Crown is it anti-leads Glimmora which is incredible as it’s been receiving higher usage. I am interested to see if slower, but bulkier Iron Crown spreads develop that can tank more hits and also generate slow Volt Switches. Crown will most likely continue to rise with the absence of Volc and a projected increase in Kyurems.


View attachment 630272
Ice-Breaking Bullets
Scizor’s viability in OU is an interesting case. It has promising traits such as being neutral to Ground, boasting strong priority in Bullet Punch, and utility with Knock and U-Turn, but they were not enough to propel Scizor into OU stardom. Though we shouldn’t dismiss what it offers to teams that can fit it. It has solid matchups into mons like Valiant, Fire Punch-less Dragonite, Rillaboom, Deoxys-Speed, Grasspon, Weavile, etc. CB Tera Steel Bullet Punch is strong enough to send Roaring Moon and other offensive sweepers to the ER after some chip. Even vs bulkier teams, U-Turn and Knock can chunk through bulky targets. CB Close Combat is even strong enough to 2HKO something as bulky as physically defensive Corviknight after rocks + a single Knock Off. A couple trends have been favorable to this set in particular. Volcarona is banned, and Gliscor running more specially bulky spreads for Dragapult. As a Kyurem check, it is rather odd. Even with some bulk investment, Specs Ice Beam 2HKOs Scizor after rocks, though you do OHKO with Bullet Punch after some chip. I think the approach Scizor should go is to run more bulk so it can more reliably check Kyurem. The loss of attack investment isn’t terrible as Bullet Punch off 130 Attack is still strong vs offense. Scizor has the makings of an OU underdog, functioning vs both offense and defensive styles, but there is an argument that the lack of Roost and poor special bulk may hold it back, but we’ll see as we start May and WCOP.


View attachment 630273
Lifting The Hammer
Tinkaton has a ton of valuable traits in the metagame. Fairy/Steel is by far the best defensive typing in the game with decent special bulk to back it up. Tinkaton has found itself on different archetypes and sees decent usage in tours. Its most notable standing is on Vert’s Molt/Ting-Lu/Darkrai team. The utility she provides on builds is incredible. Encore is the most notable, being one of the more, speedy users of the move in the tier, and that compliments Tinkaton’s useful defensive typing. For example, you can bait Raging Bolt to click Dragon Pulse/Draco on your Ground type and switch into Tinkaton to Encore it. There is also Knock Off, Rocks, and T-Wave which it uses to good effect. For Gliscor, Tinkaton can run Ice Hammer to threaten decent damage against it and also Lando. Pickpocket Tinkaton also functions as a semi-Knock absorber, stealing items from Boots mons like Weavile, Dragonite, and Dragapult. You can even read a U-Turn from Cinderace and take its Boots away which is funny as shit. Mold Breaker is also another option that lets you T-Wave Garg/Ghold and Encore the latter. However everything ties to that sweet typing. Being able to switch into Kyurem, Deoxys-S and Darkrai is pivotal for many team styles that traditionally have awkward matchups into these threats. The most common Tinkatons go full-out with the speed EVs, but I’d say going bulkier with enough EVs to outrun R-Bolt could be a route we can take with Tinkaton. Here’s the spread for reference.

Tinkaton (F) @ Air Balloon/Leftovers/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pickpocket/Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Water/Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 152 SpD / 104 Spe
Careful Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off/Thunder Wave
- Encore
- Stealth Rock/Knock Off/Ice Hammer

View attachment 630274
Penguin Spottings
Empoleon is interesting. If you look at this month’s 1825+ ladder usage statistics, Empoleon is seeing a surprisingly high amount of usage, sitting at 60th place and being used more than Pokemon like Serperior, Volcanion, and Rockpon. Why is that? Empoleon exhibits unique traits. Being a bulky Steel type with reliable recovery, and several good support options such as Knock Off, Flip Turn, Stealth Rocks, Haze, and Roar. It checks/soft checks Kyurem, Primarina, Walking Wake, Manaphy, Glimmora, Gholdengo, and AV Glowking. You can also tech Ice Beam over Surf to threaten an OHKO on Gliscor and also hit Grasses. Empoleon is also a Knock user that threatens most Knock absorbers with big damage, even Clefable loses due to the eventual Moonblast SpA drops causing Competitive to give it SpA boosts. Being able to check Primarina is huge because it’s one of the hardest matchups for Balance. It synergizes with Pokemon like SD Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Grasspon, and Darkrai, either complementing them defensively or Flip Turning into them safely. Empoleon isn’t amazing though. It has difficulties fitting all the utility it wants, it’s a Water type without a Fire resistance, and you 100% need to pair it with something that checks Wogre because its a free switch-in for it.


View attachment 630276
An Old Gen Fable
Jirachi was a pillar of old gen OU, functioning as a bulky and annoying asf Steel type. Even with power creep hitting the later gens, Rachi still found viability in its SpD utility and Scarf sets, checking Pokemon like the Lati twins, Tapu Lele, and Magearna. Unfortunately it would find no niche as power creep finally caught up to it in Gen 8. In SV OU, Rachi may find a small niche as a check to threatening mons like Kyurem, CM Primarina, and Raging Bolt due to great special bulk + Encore to shut down setup. It also has some utility with U-Turn, Rocks, Wish, and Healing Wish. Not to mention Iron Head flinches will never not be annoying as shit, so Rachi can find something to do in this metagame. The big selling factor is being a Kyurem check. However Rachi is not fond of a meta dominated by Darks, Ghosts, and competition from other Steels. It also can’t fit all these utility moves at once. Though there is an interesting route to explore with it.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 204 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Wish/U-Turn/Psychic Noise/Body Slam
- Protect/Stealth Rock/Healing Wish
- Encore

View attachment 630277View attachment 630278View attachment 630279
Don’t use these
These are just meme picks I included for fun. The problem with these are that they check Kyurem, but don’t do anything else of note. Yes, Bronzong hard checks Kyurem and BU Tusk, but you’re also using a mon that’s vulnerable and easy switch ins for a ton of OU threats like Wogre. Copperajah is an NU role compressor with Rocks, Knock Off and Whirlwind, but doesn’t check anything besides Kyurem. There’s also the fact you’re using Copperajah. Registeel has incredible stats and potential with the Crit-Me-Not sets, but it lost some of its good moves like Toxic and Seismic Toss but sure Game Freak, buff Urshifu cause it 100% needed Swords Dance. The Crit-Me-Not sets are extremely matchup reliant. Walled by Ghosts, beaten by Encore, phazing, Taunt, or Unaware walls.

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Future Sight/Psychic Noise
- Earthquake

Copperajah @ Leftovers
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Whirlwind

Registeel @ Mental Herb/Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Flying/Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Body Press
- Rest

Bonus Entry


View attachment 630283
Old Dogs Learn New Tricks

Zamazenta @ Leftovers
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dark/Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Def / 176 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Crunch/Heavy Slam
- Rest/Roar/Substitute

Behold, the jankiest looking Zama spread ever. That’s right, Specially Defensive Zamazenta. In a nutshell, this is ev’d to live 2 Specs Ice Beams from Kyurem after spikes and scare it out while speed creeping it. In return, you are also better at switching into Darkrai and your matchups vs Ghold, Pult, and specially offensive Fairies improve. However you become much worse into Wogre who outspeeds and OHKOs you at +2. If it worth losing to Wogre just to not get 2HKOd by Specs Kyurem? Maybe. After all, these are just possible options we have to directly check Kyurem. What are your thoughts?
I'm glad you mentioned registeel.
I'm just wondering, but what set is empoleon using? I'm guessing it's a set of knock, roost, surf and utility/coverage, but idk about the Ev's.
 
I think boots utility might be better. Scare some mons with Illusion, get some cheeky knocks and u-turns, maybe surprise Gambit with tera blast fighting.

Maybe like Shadow Ball/Tera Blast/Knock/U-turn, but mind you this doesn't sound amazing. Especially with almost 0 actual defensive utility.
Well, the original point was being able to switch coverage while choice locked. Tera Fighting would also not hit Ghosts, which is an issue if you are choice locked. It's an issue I live with on my Indeedee set, but that's mostly because Dark and Steel types are a problem for Psyspam.

Of course, you could just run a non-choice item like HDB. My biggest issue is I don't know if it has quite enough speed or power. Tera Ghost choice locked would hit harder neutrally. That said, I have not compared the calcs.

Tera Fighting would probably work at least decently since Ghost/Fighting coverage is really, really good. But again, I don't know the specifics of the calcs for it on Fighting TB. Normally, it would run Focus Blast. I'm not sure if the tradeoff of better accuracy is worth the opportunity cost of Tera potentially being used on something else. It might be, though.

H-Zoro really seems like a fun mon, especially with that Tera Blast tech. I could see either Nasty Plot 3 attacks or all coverage being decent but you'd basically need boots to stay hidden or removal to use an item like expert belt or a choice item. I've been wanting to experiment with it for a while and wonder what teammates could go well with it to try and lure normal/ghost/fighting moves.

Only thing is I feel it's kinda strictly outclassed by Darkrai at doing almost exactly the same thing just without the memes, so maybe it would needed some pre dlc2 magic.
For faster attackers who share a STAB, you probably would be mostly limited to faking as Dragapult. Generally whenever I tried Zoroark, I would try to pair it with at least 2 slower Steel, Normal, and/or Dark types that appreciated the Ghost immunity, while also having another Ghost type to try and make it more confusing. I suppose Garg and Kyurem could work for this also. Gambit doesn't work the best, though, because the primary ability it has can't be copied. Booster Energy is another limitation if I remember correctly. So you need to be careful who you copy and with their sets.

Ting-Lu, Hamurott, and Weavile are probably decent things to use as bait. Ursaluna Trick Room might be fun since you have one fast threat and one slow threat. But then you have to run Trick Room. Ghold, Pult, Skekedirge, Pecharunt, or maybe Ceruledge could make decent Ghost types. A surprising amount of Steel types this gen aren't weak to Fighting. Gambit doesn't work. Only Heatran and Treads are rated OU, and Treads doesn't work as well because of BE. You could maybe run more niche stuff like Empoleon, Registeel, Hoodra, or Magnezone. But I wouldn't force it.

It is maybe possible to run crazy sets to try and bait the opponent into thinking it is Zoroark when it isn't. This is Draft League, which is obviously very different, but I remember a game where KyleAye fooled his opponent by using an Overgrow mixed attacking Rillaboom with Boom Burst. His opponent just assumed it had to be H-Zoroark because Grassy Terrain didn't go off. Stuff like Defiant Gambit or not running BE on Roaring Moon come to my mind as a Tricks you could maybe try for the mind games. While I don't know how much mileage you could get out of something like that, it doesn't hurt to at least bring up the possibility.
 
they are technically checks, yes, but they’re shaky at best. a sturdier example of a check, would be dragapult switching in one time vs. urshifu-r in g8. bar, say, random cb ice punch, which people didn’t really run, you could 100% switch in once and threaten it out.

you can pivot around kyurem with the likes of slowking-g, but if you take an earth power/tera ice ice beam, you are instead the one forced out. the next time you switch in, you will be 2hkod by ice beam, for example.
I’ve been using AV Glowking and it fares better. The added bulk turns it into a much sturdier check. Add on Tera Fairy to beat the mixed sets running Scale Shot. Requires adequate hazard support of course.
 
Couple questions.

:iron hands:
Firstly, the Iron hands discussion a few pages ago inspired me try to try and make a team with the AV set and Rilla giving Hands Grassy Terrain recovery, but I would like to know if there any other good partners for it. I thought of Air Balloon Ghold as it handles the Fairy types that threaten it as well as troll Great Tusk as long as the balloon is in intact as well Alomomola who also handles the scarier Grounds and can provide Wish support, but I'd like to know if there's any other good options.


:slowking:
Secondly, is there niche for Kantonian Slowking? It has identical defenses to Glowking, access to Chilly Reception as well and Scald which can let it fish for burns in tandem with throwing out Thunder Waves.
 

FayaWizard

Amnesia
is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:slowking:
Secondly, is there niche for Kantonian Slowking? It has identical defenses to Glowking, access to Chilly Reception as well and Scald which can let it fish for burns in tandem with throwing out Thunder Waves.
...not really? You're outclassed as a bulky physical water that throws out Scalds by Alomomola, and while the opportunity to toss out Future Sights is nice, you're outclassed by, well, Slowking-Galar. You are a poorer check to Kyurem due to a weakness to Freeze-Dry, and while you matchup better into the Grounds Landorus-Therian and Great Tusk, once again you are outclassed by Alomomola. Ogerpon-Wellspring is your worst nightmare as the only thing you can do is Thunder Wave it, while Slowking-Galar could at least threaten it pre-Tera with Sludge Bomb. Ironically, in this case, Poison is the better defensive type for Slowking over Water.
 
Bro, how does somebody mess that up? Like, wtf about skeledirge looks like a ridge?
it's probably because "dirge" is kind of obscure-ish as far as words go (especially if english isn't your first language) and "ridge" isn't, so people kind of automatically mentally "correct" it to the word they know. i don't think i've heard "dirge" used in normal conversation… well, ever, and i almost never hear it on tv or in movies. instances i can think of are pretty much limited to books, news articles, and a couple songs (most notably "american pie"). it's an easy word to miss
 
Couple questions.

:iron hands:
Firstly, the Iron hands discussion a few pages ago inspired me try to try and make a team with the AV set and Rilla giving Hands Grassy Terrain recovery, but I would like to know if there any other good partners for it. I thought of Air Balloon Ghold as it handles the Fairy types that threaten it as well as troll Great Tusk as long as the balloon is in intact as well Alomomola who also handles the scarier Grounds and can provide Wish support, but I'd like to know if there's any other good options.


:slowking:
Secondly, is there niche for Kantonian Slowking? It has identical defenses to Glowking, access to Chilly Reception as well and Scald which can let it fish for burns in tandem with throwing out Thunder Waves.
The only thing i can really imagine Slowking having over Glowking is the better sun match up. Glowking often has to tera to check walking wake if it goes for a water stab while slowking doesn't. It also could be better into Iron Moth hypothetically since Iron moth fire stab is a resist and most iron moth run tera ground to to destroy glowking, but some iron moths run tera grass which just destroys that idea.
 
Anyone else noticing an uptick in Iron Valiant? Forgot how annoying this thing is. Maybe banning Volc was a mistake
Losing a check will make a strong mon more common. This isn't really surprising, but banning Volc was good for the longterm health of the tier. It's not like Volc was the only check to Valiant. Glowking, Skeledirge, Moltres, Iron Crown, Gliscor (depends on set but can help play around it), Gholdengo. Also its dependance on Booster makes it easier to manage longterm as it's nowhere near as immediatey threatening once it's used it up (outspeeding it is much easier post booster). It's strong, but it also is a nice presence that offers unique options for teambuilding.
 
I mean... who doesn't like them Heavy Booty Dudes?

Sorry guys have a great saturday
Magic Guard Clef in the corner
Anyone else noticing an uptick in Iron Valiant? Forgot how annoying this thing is. Maybe banning Volc was a mistake
Banning Volc was necessary for the health of the metagame. It needed to happen no matter what. It wasn't a mistake. Valiant will ofc get stronger with it special sets but it's still managable
 
I am noticing higher usage of Zapdos(?) and Raging Bolt after Volc's ban.

Zapdos's increased usage is a bit strange since it didn't really benefit from Volcarona's ban. That being said, I think its return to stardom is likely influenced by Zamazenta's increased usage. I think Zama is frankly necessary in the metagame to contain most of the bullshit, but ID + BP Zama has a very straightforward and easy wincon - defeat Ghost and sweep. I've been able to break through mons as sturdy as Gking and Gliscor with it, which is crazy. Thankfully, Zapdos acts as another stopgap by crippling these ID + BP sets + trolling in general with para. Its good into a number of mons like Tusk, Teal Mask, Lando-T, etc. so it "arguably" fits into the metagame just as well as home / DLC1, though it works best it the opponent elects not to run Gliscor, Ting-Lu, or Raging Bolt. I've been trying to use Ghold Hstack more lately (without Air Balloon might I add) and something I find really annoying is how easy it is for Tusk to Spin against Ghold since its faster, so it can afford to mispredict by going for Ice Spinner or Knock. Zapdos is still nice on these teams as a way to disuade Tusk from Spinning so freely, while spreading Para easily to make it so that Ghold's Hex becomes more dangerous. That being said, you effectively have two mons with are useless vs Sun, Garganacl, and Raging Bolt if running TWave Ghold + Zap, so be careful. I think part of the reason Zapdos fell off (aside from Gliscor + Raging Bolt + Kyurem being added in DLC2) is how dependent it is on Hax. If it gets those Static / Discharge procs, its a god, otherwise, its just mid, arguably bad even. Hurricane is also a terrible move to rely on vs various threats like Lando-T.

I've been seeing a lot more Raging Bolt post-volc ban too. On some level, this makes sense since Volcarona was arguably one of the better Pokemon at 1v1ing Raging Bolt with QD + Tera Ground. Nonetheless, I find this development very unfortunate. It is absolutely a skill issue (bolt isn't nearly as effective in my hands compared to the opponent's), but I just HATE fighting this mon. Raging Bolt players need to make the simplest read ever by clicking Draco on a Ground-type switch-in (specifically Tusk or Lando-T) and there will be very little stopping it from claiming 2-3 kills later on when it inevitably Calm Mind's -> Tera's on its "check" -> Calm Mind's again. I've been trying to build more teams around shitmons and I find this mon to be by far the biggest gatekeeper - even bigger than Gambit - since its very easy for it to setup and spiral out of control. Tera on a mon this bulky just isn't fair. There was an instance where I was staving off an opposing Bolt with my Iron Treads and Bolt was doing more to Treads with +1 Booster SpA Dragon Pulse than I was doing back with Ice Spinner (Raging Bolt was Tera Flying). And I had a significant amount of Spdef investment too! At the very least, this is a mon you can use too. Compared to Ghold, I find Bolt to be a lot more consistently useful, since its defensive utility is more applicable against offensive styles (specifically Sun and Woger) and if the opponent doesn't have Clodsire, its fairly good at weakening defensive cores.

Another mon I've been seeing more of is Iron Crown. I think this Pokemon's potential is only going to go up as more bans happen (though a Woger ban might not neccisarily be good for it), which I think is good! It can be a bit linear in how its played, but it does a really good job at filling in a Lando-T-esque role with its FutureSwitch Combo, deleting opposing leads with Tachyon Cutter, punishing Tera Fairy on mons like Bolt, etc.
 
it's probably because "dirge" is kind of obscure-ish as far as words go (especially if english isn't your first language) and "ridge" isn't, so people kind of automatically mentally "correct" it to the word they know. i don't think i've heard "dirge" used in normal conversation… well, ever, and i almost never hear it on tv or in movies. instances i can think of are pretty much limited to books, news articles, and a couple songs (most notably "american pie"). it's an easy word to miss
Pokerouge
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 16, Guests: 26)

Top