Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Ting is going to be the knock absorber on the vast majority of Hazard stacks, the main archetype it's ran on, on these structures Ting's literal job is to get hazards up + neutralise a setup sweeper or two. It's in a way almost playing the role of a suicide lead, but typically later in the match, getting knocked is not the end of the world. Ting is entirely happy getting hazards up + trading with Moon.
i think one of the most underappreciated gags in all of pokemon is that the bulkiest thing we allow in the tier has one job and it's to die slowly
 
Ignoring the usage argument, Toxic is a very reliable way to get rid of non-taunt Moon. The combination of Protect stalling + a Dark resist can be very efficient in removing Moon, usually resulting in it not being able to get more than 1 kill, which should be the goal.
It should be noted that Toxic Gliscor is a complete chump into Taunt Moon. The standard EQ + Toxic cannot touch Taunt Tera Flying Moon, which affords multiple free DDances for Moon and will probably cause you to lose the game. As it is quite difficult to discern the Moon set on preview, I would not recommend switching Gliscor into Moon unless you are something like Physdef Poison Jab or U-turn with Bolt Thunderclap in the back.
 
regarding roaring moon, if the supposed countermeasures to a pokémon are the likes of:

  • being forced to trade
  • fishing for burns
  • running unsets/unmons
  • being forced to tera (which is still unreliable)
  • hoping it isn’t running a specific set that bypasses your counterplay
  • praying it doesn’t tera away its weaknesses to boost further
then it’s fair to say there are some issues afoot as the counterplay is unreliable at best, & a total liability at worst.

kinda pleased that this discussion has, seemingly, come from nowhere. maybe this is a sign that people are realising that the current power level is problematic? ah, one can but hope!!!

roaring moon, as a pokemon that breaks for itself, has perfect coverage, a billion attack & enough speed to outspeed everything relevant, good bulk, & easy-to-slot roundabouts to common answers, is emblematic of one of the most egregious issues with this generation.
 
roaring moon, as a pokemon that breaks for itself, has perfect coverage, a billion attack & enough speed to outspeed everything relevant, good bulk, & easy-to-slot roundabouts to common answers, is emblematic of one of the most egregious issues with this generation.
Well, you see, sometimes you can click a singular Ice move and pray to god you kill it. Better hope all those phasing abilities weren't wasted on other set upsweepers!!! :psycry:
 

Finchinator

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Roaring Moon is not broken, in my opinion. The metagame has an assortment of new counterplay to it, specifically things we didn’t see back during DLC1.

Sticky Barb Clefable is able to stop it at either no kills or one kill at the absolute most, and the latter is assuming it uses up Tera (which would make a standalone trade a net negative). This is easily the best Clefable set right now and it’s been only getting better on balance.

Avalanche Dondozo has been niche for the first year of SV OU, but has picked up a great deal recently, swinging that matchup and potentially wasting Tera as many people want to bolster Acro damage and resist Body Press.

BB Skarmory has been way better than prior and when combined with RH, it’s always beating non-Taunt sets and at the very worst it’s forcing a Tera to account for Body Press and putting it into Body Press range even if you get turns wrong (and there’s a likely chance you win outright).

Ice Shard Weavile, ESpeed Dragonite, and Scarf Meowscarada remain constants on the revenge killing front while Kingambit’s Sucker Punch and Raging Bolt’s Thunderclap do very well post-Tera, too. Every form of “fringe” offense like weather or Terrain has easy ways to RK Roaring Moon as well. The first few of these revenge killers aren’t “new” methods of checking Roaring Moon, but everything else is, which makes the dynamic surrounding it a lot cloudier than DLC1.

Overall, I find Roaring Moon to be very good at forcing progress and I can totally see why people would label it as broken, but I find it more balanced than it previously was. Wouldn’t ever stand in the way of a suspect if the community wanted one (and I am sure we will have a check-in during WCOP), so everyone should absolutely speak their mind. But imo things are still settling post-Volc, things like Wellspring pose a bigger threat to the tier’s balance, and there are some things the arguments across the last page miss.
 

658Greninja

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To add further into the discussion, I have a couple tour replays that demonstrate the difficulties Roaring Moon has with actually setting up. While scavenging through recent tournament replays, there’s been surprisingly few teams loading up with Roaring Moon, instead they opt Dragonite who imo is the best DD sweeper in the tier. Even when it does show up, it doesn’t make a notable impact, mostly winning games vs opponents whose teams are completely crippled beyond repair which says nothing about Roaring Moon’s alleged brokeness.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2115933352-sd15bu4lz486i6ry5axnmtytbea1bztpw
(Lando trades HP with Moon and U-Turns into Gambit to remove it)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-764807?p2
(Chaitanya is perfectly suited to checking Roaring Moon with Wisp Cinder, Whirlwind Skarm, and Mola)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-759306
(A seemingly free setup for Roaring Moon via Heatran is thwarted by the reveal of Will-O-Wisp)

To secret to dealing with Moon is good positioning. Even with Moon’s decent natural bulk, Moon is at risk of being burnt, para’d or put on a timer with Toxic. As shown in the first replay, what I said about Lando being able to U-Turn into a rkiller is valid, especially since Lando commonly pairs with Gambit/Raging Bolt. Even after taking chip, Lando is still able to Intimidate the Dragonite.

Like Finch said, Moon can force progress with Knock and raw attack power, with or without Dragon Dance, but it doesn’t have the potential to 6-0 well-built teams like Volc did with the correct Tera. Moon most of the time is running Tera Flying. While it can branch into other Teras (Ghost, Steel, Fairy), the reason you run Flying is to not lose to the bulky Ground types in the tier, especially Tusk who can potentially eat a +1 Acro.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 388-458 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
 
so anyways the tldr is roaring moon suspect not anytime soon, not confirmed either, just a BIG MAYBE, def ogerpon wellspring suspect coming 1st if anything, time to move on
 
To add further into the discussion, I have a couple tour replays that demonstrate the difficulties Roaring Moon has with actually setting up. While scavenging through recent tournament replays, there’s been surprisingly few teams loading up with Roaring Moon, instead they opt Dragonite who imo is the best DD sweeper in the tier. Even when it does show up, it doesn’t make a notable impact, mostly winning games vs opponents whose teams are completely crippled beyond repair which says nothing about Roaring Moon’s alleged brokeness.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2115933352-sd15bu4lz486i6ry5axnmtytbea1bztpw
(Lando trades HP with Moon and U-Turns into Gambit to remove it)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-764807?p2
(Chaitanya is perfectly suited to checking Roaring Moon with Wisp Cinder, Whirlwind Skarm, and Mola)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-759306
(A seemingly free setup for Roaring Moon via Heatran is thwarted by the reveal of Will-O-Wisp)

To secret to dealing with Moon is good positioning. Even with Moon’s decent natural bulk, Moon is at risk of being burnt, para’d or put on a timer with Toxic. As shown in the first replay, what I said about Lando being able to U-Turn into a rkiller is valid, especially since Lando commonly pairs with Gambit/Raging Bolt. Even after taking chip, Lando is still able to Intimidate the Dragonite.

Like Finch said, Moon can force progress with Knock and raw attack power, with or without Dragon Dance, but it doesn’t have the potential to 6-0 well-built teams like Volc did with the correct Tera. Moon most of the time is running Tera Flying. While it can branch into other Teras (Ghost, Steel, Fairy), the reason you run Flying is to not lose to the bulky Ground types in the tier, especially Tusk who can potentially eat a +1 Acro.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 388-458 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
u just acknowledged finchinator mentioning how moon is good at forcing progress, and i think it does it better than any other mon u can find on ho teams which is the only type of team moon is suitable. find another mon w booster energy atk, stab knock and taunt, none. it doesnt have to be 6-0ing teams to be broken. ur entitled to ur own opinion but just cos a mon cant 6-0 the enemy doesnt means its not broken harhar

btw those replays were nothing special to me esp the 3rd one the enemys team was so weak to moon i would have just lead roaring moon and used it to wallbreak
 
Not sure why TPP didn't DD up and maybe Tera in Lando-T's face. That seems like a misplay to me. This was discussed in my previous comment. The math says you should DD in Lando-T's face.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-764807?p2
(Chaitanya is perfectly suited to checking Roaring Moon with Wisp Cinder, Whirlwind Skarm, and Mola)
This game is like taking a team with Blissey and Clod and saying Volc isn't broken because it couldn't break through. Never mind the burn. Moon shouldn't be DDing up in the face of Fire types that might burn it. But it probably didn't matter because Skarm, which is one of the few actual forms of counterplay, can just phase it out anyways.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-759306
(A seemingly free setup for Roaring Moon via Heatran is thwarted by the reveal of Will-O-Wisp)
Seemingly free? I mean, most Fire types carry Wisp these days. Mada was behind in that game as they were outplayed at the start. They were likely trying to make something happen.

I don't want to give the impression that I think I'm a better player than these folks or anything. I don't. But you showed replays of a misplay, what is essentially a counterteam, and a player who was losing and took a gamble to make something happen. None of this seems like optimal Moon play to me.

And as much as I do think Roaring Moon is broken, I also think you could have maybe found better examples of replays to back up your point. Phasers like Ting-Lu tend to be good form of counterplay if they can live a hit, which Ting-Lu usually can. Etc.
 
I will make a friendly announcement: I don't think that Wellspring should be suspect tested because the DNB squad is very large (It will be a waste of 2 weeks) [Just being honest but go for it]
nah, we just need to be patient. the meta is somewhat bearable right now because we're still fresh off the volc ban and new developments are happening for the first time in a while. give it time and the meta will settle into its usual intolerable state, at which point we'll choose the next thing to kick out. if we repeat this enough times we might actually get to a point where going on ladder doesn't cause physical pain
 
Roaring Moon is not broken, in my opinion.
hang on, didn't you rate it as "broken" on your graph?
i think we might all just be playing really fast and loose with the definition of "broken". it'd probably be a good idea at some point to have a discussion on whether or not "broken" means "banworthy", and whether it should mean "banworthy", so we're all on the same page here because i don't think anyone has a consistent definition of the term right now
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
I dislike Roaring Moon on principal of stats. I know a lot of people feel that we should accept power creep, and to an extent I agree. It is natural. But I feel that we should still be keeping some sort of power level in mind when tiering for anything under than Ubers (even Ubers has one, just obscenely high standard of course), and to me Roaring Moon simply gets past it.

It's probably not banworthy in the current tier with how we are tiering it, but I wish that we got rid of mons like it a long time ago. To be clear I am not talking just about BST, but this sort of min-maxxing in conjunction with high BST. 139 Attack and 119 speed is really good in of itself, but then you have the 105 HP, 101 SpDef and second-worst stat being 71 in Defense. Ah jeez, Scarlet Violet, wow. A Physical Attacker with sub 60 spatk to min-max further, shocking.

From a tiering perspective, my opinion is that keeping these types of Pokemon around will almost always bring unhealthy elements to the tier, and will almost always lead to strategies being found in the future that break them. When you have such high unabilitated, min-maxxed BST, do not be surprised when people find a way to maximize the effect of it and find ways for it to strongarm every other Pokemon. We used to have a mechanic where Pokemon like Roaring Moon could exist, and it was called Mega Evolution, and you could only have one per team. It was the Queen piece of your team. Now you can run a bunch of Pokemon like this.

My biggest critique of Gen 9 OU (and yes this is subjective) isn't that X teamstyle is unviable, or variety, or whatever. It's that I simply do not think the new Pokemon (or new strategies for old Pokemon due to Tera: ie. Dragonite) are fun to play around at all. Be it Garganacl or Gholdengo being immune to status, or Kingambit having a bajillion attack with boosts + Sucker Punch, or Glimmora not being allowed to be attacked by half the tier unless I just want to accept hazards. Dondozo being a stat creep unaware Pokemon, Skeledirge also, all the mons getting +1 Speed with min-maxxed stats like Roaring Moon. There are a few pretty honest ones like Clodsire and Great Tusk, but even Clodsire can be really annoying.

SV OU is "cockblocking: the tier." Be it the bajillion priorities, several viable Unaware Pokemon, Pokemon that block all forms of status, or revenge killers that literally just have 500 speed, Encore being more prevalent than ever; there is no natural flow in this tier.
 
but finch where do the ou ranked mons fall in the drake kendrick beef i just know that drake is volcarona

i gave oras ou a try after some of u suggested it and it is hella fun!!

on the topic of sv, hows the lack of volc sitting with y'all?
 
hang on, didn't you rate it as "broken" on your graph?

i think we might all just be playing really fast and loose with the definition of "broken". it'd probably be a good idea at some point to have a discussion on whether or not "broken" means "banworthy", and whether it should mean "banworthy", so we're all on the same page here because i don't think anyone has a consistent definition of the term right now
It's so funny, Finch just wanted to see everybody's silly graphs instead people went on forever on a semantics discussion.
 
but finch where do the ou ranked mons fall in the drake kendrick beef i just know that drake is volcarona

i gave oras ou a try after some of u suggested it and it is hella fun!!

on the topic of sv, hows the lack of volc sitting with y'all?
It makes me feel so much better. Knowing that I don't have the run 3 mons just to check every variant makes team building much more fun in all honesty to build. Before when team building, the team would be able to counter one set, but then another would destroy it. This means it would take so much time to account for every tera type volcs has until you are destroyed by one you forgot about all of a sudden, like tera bug swarm.
 
I guess you missed the literal half dozen posts and disclaimers explaining this wasn’t an exercise to reflect tiering and didn’t hold weight in that context. Love when we push narratives and miss the actual content and arguments.
i never said it held any weight, did i? i specifically said "whether or not you want roaring moon banned" in my post about it being broken. i wasn't conflating "broken" with "banworthy", i was just making the observation that the mon is, outside of the context of the meta, absolutely bonkers. that's why you put it in on the "broken" side of the graph, isn't it? not because of its place in this particular meta, but because the mon in a vacuum is textbook broken. obviously that doesn't matter to tiering at all because other things exist, but nowhere in this conversation did i insinuate that it mattered. maybe i didn't make that entirely clear and i apologize for the misunderstanding
 

Finchinator

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was just making the observation that the mon is, outside of the context of the meta, absolutely bonkers.
Broken or uncompetitive or anything relevant in tiering context cannot be determined “outside of the context of the meta” because they’re all terms relative to any given tier. Things like BST or abilities are only good relative to their peers, same for overall viability and effectiveness.
 
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Broken or uncompetitive or anything relevant in tiering context cannot be determined “outside of the context of the meta” because they’re all terms relative to any given tier. Things like BST or abilities are only good relative to their peers, same for overall viability and effectiveness.
but doesn't that kinda just ultimately boil down to "if everything is broken, then nothing is"? i don't think that's an acceptable state of things

also, i'm still confused as to how suggesting "we should probably agree on a consistent, universal definition for this term and stick to it" was pushing a narrative. i was just saying that people are using "broken" to mean a dozen different things and it's starting to lead to confusion and the term losing meaning. what narrative is that pushing?
 
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Finchinator

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but doesn't that kinda just ultimately boil down to "if everything is broken, then nothing is"? i don't think that's an acceptable state of things
No, that has nothing to do with what I said.

My point is that you are only “broken” if you lack sufficient counterplay. Counterplay is determined by what’s usable within any metagame. Calling something “broken” when it’s “outside the context of the meta” means nothing. It’s a relative term that is a determinant of its surrounding context. You can’t just say “oooh big stats strong moves broken” — those may be symptoms, but tiering is about the actual interactions within the metagame.
 

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