Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

You can’t just say “oooh big stats strong moves broken” — those may be symptoms, but tiering is about the actual interactions within the metagame.
but the reason box legendaries start out in ubers is because of their big stats and strong moves, isn't it? they're typically not allowed to have any actual interactions within the metagame, no matter how powercrept and unbalanced the meta starts out, and this is universally agreed upon as the correct way to go about things. even when they were mass-testing ubers for bw, they (correctly) decided that some were "broken beyond reasonable doubt" and didn't need testing at all. so there has to be some sort of cutoff point where something is broken in virtually any reasonable ou context by merit of its own self instead of its interactions with the meta. maybe i'm old and stodgy and my tolerance for the sort of minmaxing and hyperoptimization that's become commonplace in recent gens is just lower than average, or maybe the average power level of the whole tier has surpassed that cutoff all at once and it's no longer possible to properly clean up the mess. i won't fault anyone for going with the first option, it's certainly the more comforting one
 
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I wanted to share an underrated Gouging Fire set I cooked up during the Volcarona suspect. All of the GFires I've seen on the ladder for the last few months are either fast offensive DD or bulky DD breaking swipe, however, I haven't seen anyone else making use of GFires exceptional bulk (105/121/93), fantastic typing and unique utility movepool with Burning Bulwark and Dragon Tail. That said, GFire has a set of attributes that allow it to be an at times unkillable phaser for bulky and hazard stack teams.

Phasing Fire Set:
Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Atk / 104 Def / 44 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Morning Sun
- Burning Bulwark
- Flare Blitz

This set makes use of GFires unique typing and movepool to completely shut down some of the metas potent physical attackers. As almost every GFire variant currently is DD, Burning Bulwark has a surprise element that can ruin opponents game plan early in a match. Burning Bulwark is an incredible move that allows GFire to consistently burn threats that can otherwise avoid WoW such as Meowscarada, Weavile, Ogerpon (Teal), Sammurott, Zamzenta, Libero Cinderace and Rillaboom, along with non earthquake variants of Great Tusk.

GFire pairs well with Rillaboom who appreciates GFires ability to completely stop meow, cinderace, and weavile in their tracks. Under grassy terrain, GFires matchup against mons that pack eq coverage like Dragonite and Roaring Moon drastically improves, allowing GFire to eat an eq and phase with dragon tail or force contact to burn the opponent with BB. Rillaboom also helps with non-teal Ogerpons who otherwise avoid BB burns with Ivy Cudgel. Phasing with Dragon Tail allows GFire to help check setup sweepers and rack up valuable chip damage against counters like dondozo, garg, Lando-T, Tusk with EQ, and Gliscor. Dtail also helps dissuade opponents from switching in revenge killers like Dragapult, Kyurem, and Wake after pivoting.

The EV spread is based off the Bulky DD set, however some of the speed EVs are allocated to SpD to augments GFires tanking ability. 72 Attack EVs allow GFire to 2HKO Clodsire with Flare Blitz and 36 Spe allows it to outspeed an uninvested Gliscor in a pinch. The bulk investment with an Impish nature allows GFire to survive a +2 Tera Water Ogerpon-W's Ivy Cudgel from full HP while safely taking it off the field with dtail. While Phasing GFire shouldnt the primary tera user on teams, Tera Fairy is the preferred tera to blank common dragon attacks from revenge killers like Dragapult and Kyurem, while also conveniently dropping its weakness to ground.

Phasing GFire needs to be postioned carefully to maximize the effectiveness of BB while avoiding opponents status moves and untimely knock offs. This set really struggles against mons that sometimes pack earth power like Lando T, Treads, dirge, and flash fire heatran. Additionally, most Gliscor sets can hard wall this set so bringing a solid check is mandatory. Phasing GFire can contribute against most common archetypes, however it can struggle against teams packing multiple strong special attackers.

Overall, this is an extremely underrated GFire set that I think should see more use. It's not as potent as it's DD sets and the 90% accuracy on dragon tail can be infuriating at times but it certainly occupies a solid niche as a defensive phaser that can cover difficult matchups for hazard stacking like Cinderace, Weavile and Meow.

Phasing Fire in action:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2119825021-qc8dhx2m4b778l37l0wovqnpxy9sfa5pw
This matchup shows GFires defensive utility, getting the turn 1 burn on meow and later shutting down a dragonite setup under grassy terrain.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2119919885-x8ifywtb37gnwuemnflgb96cxp0aqtlpw
Here we see GFire being highly disruptive vs stall, leading the opponent to forfeit after wearing down Skarm.

I'd be curious to see if anyone else is leveraging unusual sets for other meta staple. It's been fun messing around with an offbeat GFire set.
 

Finchinator

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but the reason box legendaries start out in ubers is because of their big stats and strong moves, isn't it?
No, it’s because they’re obviously overpowered relative to those things in OU and just lack the actual checks or counters to exist in a competitive landscape. As I said before, those things like stats or moves can be symptoms of that, but we have seen Kyurem-B in BW OU and plenty of other crazy BST monsters around OU.
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
My point is that you are only “broken” if you lack sufficient counterplay. Counterplay is determined by what’s usable within any metagame. Calling something “broken” when it’s “outside the context of the meta” means nothing. It’s a relative term that is a determinant of its surrounding context. You can’t just say “oooh big stats strong moves broken” — those may be symptoms, but tiering is about the actual interactions within the metagame.
For the record, I don't really think Roaring Moon is banworthy, and I do not think big stat mons cannot be allowed into OU and have it work. I think it'd be better if we didn't have them because I feel like they are a risk factor to metagame health, but they aren't really banworthy in the metagame right now probably. I just want to say this because I did not realize this would be part of a back and forth on the topic of BST.

To be fair on Kyurem Black, it was always unable to use the full extent of its gigantic physical Attack and after it got a physical Ice move it was instantly Ubers. But it is true that it was able to work for several gens, and not like it didn't use that Attack stat; even on Special oriented sets the fact that its Fusion Bolt hit like a STAB Electric type still, uninvested, was a big part of the package.
 
No, it’s because they’re obviously overpowered relative to those things in OU and just lack the actual checks or counters to exist in a competitive landscape. As I said before, those things like stats or moves can be symptoms of that, but we have seen Kyurem-B in BW OU and plenty of other crazy BST monsters around OU.
kyub had stats but no moves, that's the whole reason it was kept around. once it got a real movepool it was kicked out of the tier instantly, twice. and it didn't even start out ou, it was initially uber but got tested down. i think regular kyurem is a better example, and even that is broken now, but that's besides the point

as for the actual point, fuck it, i give up. i can't convince you of anything if you're not interested in listening. you just interpret everything i say as evil or malicious or pushing a narrative even when i'm literally just asking a fucking question. all i said was "hey, so you called roaring moon broken here and then not broken here within the span of two weeks, did your opinion change or are there two different kinds of broken or what" and you went off like a stick of dynamite. me getting overly defensive and hostile is expected, why are you doing it?
 
People know my opinion on Roaring Moon. The only thing I will say is further on this is that I feel like the tier would be a lot healthier if the fastest BE mon was Iron Valiant as opposed to Roaring Moon.

Google sucker punch
Ok... Gambit with two KOs or does roughly 29-34.4% with Sucker Punch to Roaring Moon. Lando-T will do roughly 47.2 - 55.8% with U-turn. That's a total range of about 71.7 - 90.2%. If Moon goes Tera Flying, that Sucker Punch damage jumps to 58.4 - 69.2%. However, Lando-T is not doing 30% chip to a Tera Flying Moon with U-turn. It's doing more like 11.6 - 13.9%. This is a range of 70 - 83.1%.

Without Tera, Rocky Helmet chip would require a higher percentage within those rolls to KO. With Tera Flying, Moon will always survive this scenario with a Rocky Helmet chip unless there is a crit. What I initially missed on replay was that Moon took an extra helmet chip with Acrobatics. TPP would have needed to predict Lando-T and either DD or Knock Off in Iron Valiant's face, which is quite risky.

I still maintain that Lando-T isn't really the greatest check for it.

It's so funny, Finch just wanted to see everybody's silly graphs instead people went on forever on a semantics discussion.
This is why we can't have nice things. Or at least Finch can't. Poor Finch.
 
oh come off it this mon doesn't even exist

seriously, though, how did boulder end up falling off so hard? was there any specific factor making it so fraudulent or was it just generally not good? was there a specific meta development that killed it or was it like that the whole time and it took people a while to realize? it always felt mid to me personally but i never really could put my finger on why aside from the obvious weakness to basically every priority move
 
oh come off it this mon doesn't even exist

seriously, though, how did boulder end up falling off so hard? was there any specific factor making it so fraudulent or was it just generally not good? was there a specific meta development that killed it or was it like that the whole time and it took people a while to realize? it always felt mid to me personally but i never really could put my finger on why
I guess Rock/Psychic just isn't great for breaking through walls, and being naturally weak to Sucker Punch is pretty, uh, bad in a Gambit meta. Just guessing here.
 
oh come off it this mon doesn't even exist

seriously, though, how did boulder end up falling off so hard? was there any specific factor making it so fraudulent or was it just generally not good? was there a specific meta development that killed it or was it like that the whole time and it took people a while to realize? it always felt mid to me personally but i never really could put my finger on why aside from the obvious weakness to basically every priority move
Easy, its typing. That's the whole reason why it is so bad. It's weakness to priority? Yeah, rock/psychic is weak to both gg and sucker punch, two of the most common priority moves. Moveset limitations? Being forced into using psychic stab in order to do good damage to tusk, a really important mon in the meta, is due to boulder not having another good stab option, thus being forced into using cc and e-quake a lot more in order to hit the rest of the meta such as gambit and ghold. Inabilitity to hit the field until end game scenarios? Well, I mean booster energy being a one time boost is part of the reason, but we see valiant sometimes coming in and then switching out and it seems fine with that. The reason why boulder has to keep its booster intact much more than valiant is due to its typing not giving it many opportunties to actually get in, it has so many weaknesses it has to account for.
Yeah, boulder is like mega screwed by its typing. I called it so early on that iron boulder would not be good, and look how it turned out.
 
Final weekend of SV Smogon Tour just wrapped up, and it's the first one post-Volcarona. I wanted to highlight some of the mons and trends we saw this week.

:rillaboom: :hawlucha: :primarina:
We saw a couple instances of monke gaming to success. On Friday, Ferenia's first game vs Stareal features the typical partner of Hawlucha, but also includes Grassy Seed Primarina as a beneficiary. Between the healing and the +1 defense, it becomes a juggernaut that got 2.5 kills before going down. For the rematch of Stareal vs Clas, Stareal has a more defensively oriented Grassy Terrain + Hawlucha team, with the triple G core of Garg + Great Tusk + Grassy Seed Gholdengo all profiting. The healing is massive for Gholdengo, allowing it to trade well with Clas' Primarina, but the game's ultimately decided by a timely Headlong Rush crit.

:hoopa-unbound:
Hoopa-Unbound showed up on Friday, both times brought by winner Stareal. In semifinals, Stareal loads a mixed Knock Off/Psychic Noise/Thunderbolt into polt's balance and manages to punch a hole in polt's core before going down, eliminating Gliscor and bringing Alomomola to death's door. Stareal also features Hoopa in finals against Ferenia's substantially faster team: this one is Tera Flying Knock/Psychic Noise/Drain Punch, and it's entirely possible this was the same set because Hoopa is a weird mon. This time it provides chip on Rotom and ends up trading 1v1 with Iron Valiant's Destiny Bond.

:gholdengo: :ting-lu: :skarmory: :zamazenta:
Hazards were prominent on Saturday, with many of the teams having a clear focus around putting stuff on the floor. That said, the MVP of this day might have been Zamazenta - it turns out that a mon with a BST of 8000 is good. It's OU boss Finchinator vs Yves Stone in semifinals, and Yves Stone has a familiar, defensive structure, with Ting-Lu + Skarmory to put thousands of hazards on the floor and Cinderace + Hatterene for maximum control. The MVP for Finch ends up being Tera Steel ID/Press/Crunch/Rest Chesto Zamazenta, which proves that every mon has reliable recovery if you're willing to give up your item slot, and also only do it once. Rest allows it to shrug off a burn and finish off the endgame.
In semifinals between Santu and JojoOui, Santu has a fully offensive Stone Edge/CC/Crunch/Iron Head Zamazenta, which turns out to be very useful against Tera Fairy Raging Bolt. It's time for finals between Finch and Santu, and Finch has his trusty Zamazenta, but he also has his last opponent's Skarm/Lu hazard core, this time supported by Gholdengo to make sure the hazards stay up. There's also a raw Boots Walking Wake, which is helpful considering Santu brought webs. Wouldn't you believe it, Finch's Zamazenta clutches up the endgame as well, this time a Boots variant with more of an offensive lean.

:garganacl:
TOP OF MY BLOCK, GARGANACL: Everyone's favorite Minecraft mob was powerful this week, showing up in 6 out of 14 games and winning 5 of them. Sets ranged from Stealth Rock/Protect to Curse/EQ, and I don't think I caught any Covert Cloaks this week, which certainly helped it out. We can see some anti-Garganacl adaptation in other ways, with several Slowking-Galars running Grass Knot - notably, Ferenia used a Tera Grass Grass Knot one against Santu to hand Garg its only loss.

I'd love to do some World Cup coverage but barely anybody wants to play games until the deadline. LATAM is looking pretty strong, though, with three of their strongest members out of prison. (A 3-1 sample size is surely representative!)
 
oh come off it this mon doesn't even exist

seriously, though, how did boulder end up falling off so hard? was there any specific factor making it so fraudulent or was it just generally not good? was there a specific meta development that killed it or was it like that the whole time and it took people a while to realize? it always felt mid to me personally but i never really could put my finger on why aside from the obvious weakness to basically every priority move
IDK to me it was apparent from the start this mon was gonna have an uphill battle. Its stats are so good to offset the fact that it has one of the worst typings in the game. Rock Psychic just naturally loses to too much between Moon, Ghold, Gambit, Oger, etc. Furthermore, its attacking power wasn't even that good either. Mighty Cleave is a great move, but a 95 BP contact move off of 120 attack pales in comparison to most of the heavier hitters this gen. Furthermore, this gen has some of the most difficult to break walls like Ting-Lu and Dozo, which boulder's base typing doesn't help it in breaking.

Having said all that, I think this mon is still underrated. Its typing and speed are really good vs certain threats, namely Deo-S, boosted Tera Fly Moon, Gouging Fire, etc. Tera is also really good on this mon. SubSD Tera Flying Boulder can just completely trash certain offensive structures because its so fast & gets easy setup on Lando-T. I could see it making waves again in the future.
 
oh come off it this mon doesn't even exist

seriously, though, how did boulder end up falling off so hard? was there any specific factor making it so fraudulent or was it just generally not good? was there a specific meta development that killed it or was it like that the whole time and it took people a while to realize? it always felt mid to me personally but i never really could put my finger on why aside from the obvious weakness to basically every priority move
Roaring Moon and Val resist sucker punch while Boulder takes it to the face. I’m sure there’s a few more reasons, but it’s tough to be a frail offensive mon in this meta if you don’t resist sucker punch.

As much as I hate sucker punch 50/50s and the fact that you can mindlessly add gambit to most teams and it’ll work, my biggest issue with gambit is that it limits creativity by almost universally checking all frail offensive mons that don’t resist dark. Reminds me of gen 6 Aegislash in the sense that it’s stayed in OU past it’s welcome and thus appears incredibly centralizing opposed to broken cuz the meta has adapted to it’s brokenness.
 

Finchinator

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OU Leader
as for the actual point, fuck it, i give up. i can't convince you of anything if you're not interested in listening. you just interpret everything i say as evil or malicious or pushing a narrative even when i'm literally just asking a fucking question. all i said was "hey, so you called roaring moon broken here and then not broken here within the span of two weeks, did your opinion change or are there two different kinds of broken or what" and you went off like a stick of dynamite. me getting overly defensive and hostile is expected, why are you doing it?
Tbh I can see why it reads that way, so I apologize if I came off as harsh. Let me clear some things up now that I am no longer working and have a moment.

The chart a few weeks ago holds no weight and really is more of a representation of “haha x beats me a lot it’s broken” or “oh damn y is annoying to account for, it’s unhealthy” and so on. I tried to do this justice with my explanation, but honestly it seems my friend group got it while it confused the general public. It’s my fault for even sharing the exercise as it caused more confusion than it did good. I still think it’s a fun concept, but it needs better explanation than I could provide it.

Regarding Moon, I just don’t think it’s broken and explained why in my post pretty thoroughly. I also said I’m fine suspecting it if the community wants that when the time comes and I understand why others do. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with justified differences in opinion. In fact, I encourage it. It’s cool when debates change perspective and open up opinions. Gouging Fire staying and Volcarona ultimately going both had a lot of this.

I don’t think you’re malicious. In fact, I think it’s cool we have people passionate about the tier who aren’t afraid to disagree and are able to articulate themselves. Echo chambers are dumb and being in a position of power would be boring without a diversity of opinion. And I know your passion comes from a good place, not a bad one. Sometimes you go a bit edgelord in expressing it, but no harm, no foul. When you’ve crossed a line, I’ve let you know. This isn’t that. It’s just me explaining tiering concepts (mind you: while on mobile and at work, so it’s not like I have time to write a typical Finchinator essay).
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
I am probably the only person in the world who thought the moment I saw the leaks that Iron Boulder wasn't that good, almost entirely off the fact that I was there for Iron Leaves and I will never forget what half Psychic type does to a mfer.

Even at the power level of Calyrex Shadow, having that quad weakness to Dark and opposing Ghosts with the way worse Psychic type is its biggest flaw lmao
 
Having said all that, I think this mon is still underrated. Its typing and speed are really good vs certain threats, namely Deo-S, boosted Tera Fly Moon, Gouging Fire, etc. Tera is also really good on this mon. SubSD Tera Flying Boulder can just completely trash certain offensive structures because its so fast & gets easy setup on Lando-T. I could see it making waves again in the future.
I have tried Iron Boulder countless times, even trying stuff like quick guard in order to get around the priority issue, and no, it is not undderated, in fact I'd say its overrated. The only thing it has is speed, that's literally it. SubSD Tera Flying loses to most things in the meta, as it has to use two mostslots in order to try and get a win, thus it will always have really bad matchups. It's also under the assumption that lando-t will stay in which most won't. The set prays upon a few teams and loses to most other things.
 
Boulders better with AV anyways. like most things that are weak to like 80 different moves and it is arguably the funniest when it can tank SPA hits repeatedly. 9AM teambuild will always give you something eventually. :mehowth:
 

TPP

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Head TD
Not sure why TPP didn't DD up and maybe Tera in Lando-T's face. That seems like a misplay to me. This was discussed in my previous comment. The math says you should DD in Lando-T's face.
Main issue for me was that there was both a Dragonite and a Tera Gambit in the back, which meant that my Roaring Moon was never winning. A healthy Lando with Taunt + Helmet is extremely annoying for physical offenses, so it's best to use Roaring Moon to get it low for its teammates in case Roaring Moon itself doesn't outright win. Roaring Moon worked as an early-mid game breaker to chip something like Lando for my Dragonite/Treads, and so I just committed to doing that instead. My main error that game was not going for Encore vs Kingambit with Dragonite, as I was debating whether my opponent would risk staying in, or if they'd go hard Lando/Valiant. That and the early game not being played well were the main mistakes I made.

In general I think Lando is a good enough answer to Roaring Moon for the exact sequence that happened within that game. You either Intimidate + get a lot of chip with U-turn + Rocky Helmet, or you force a tera out of the opponent while most likely having your tera in back to help handle it if necessary.
 

Fusion Flare

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oh come off it this mon doesn't even exist

seriously, though, how did boulder end up falling off so hard? was there any specific factor making it so fraudulent or was it just generally not good? was there a specific meta development that killed it or was it like that the whole time and it took people a while to realize? it always felt mid to me personally but i never really could put my finger on why aside from the obvious weakness to basically every priority move
:sv/iron boulder:
if we’re still talking about this, then i’ll just say Sub + SD + Earthquake with Tera Flying is probably one of the better ways to run it. You can abuse the hell out of Lando-T and Gliscor, and you only need to get one 50/50 right against Kingambit and Raging Bolt, rather than several with the 3A sweeper set. Really though, the base typing holds this thing back a lot, and it really isn’t at its strongest against bulkier teams, which are much more prevalent than they were back when this was actually a decent option into the myriad of offensive squads.

But hey, if we’re here to talk about Paradox Swords, then…

:sv/iron crown:
This guy received pretty much 0 fanfare when it dropped since everyone and their morhers were enamored with the more flashier options in the tier. But after May stats revealed its would-be ascension into the OU tier, I decided to give it a spin and found out that it was extremely good on bulky offense teams.
To start, Its AV set turns it into a Kyurem check that, in contrast to Galarian Slowking, is more offensively-minded to keep up the pressure. It can Volt Switch quite easily since not many Grounds have the Special Defense to hold off its Tachyon Cutter too. And Dark-types better tread carefully as well. I’ve sniped too many Kingambits trying to soak up its STABs with a follow-up Focus Blast off its meaty special attack stat. Of course, unlike Glowking, it doesn’t last nearly as long thanks to no recovery and a Spikes vulnerability, but that’s alright because the idea is holding off Kyurem long enough for your offensive core to continue bashing through, and it meshes quite well with hazard removers such as Cinderace or Great Tusk. Overall, this thing has definitely deserved its glowup status, and I encourage others to give it a try.
 

awyp

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Main issue for me was that there was both a Dragonite and a Tera Gambit in the back, which meant that my Roaring Moon was never winning. A healthy Lando with Taunt + Helmet is extremely annoying for physical offenses, so it's best to use Roaring Moon to get it low for its teammates in case Roaring Moon itself doesn't outright win. Roaring Moon worked as an early-mid game breaker to chip something like Lando for my Dragonite/Treads, and so I just committed to doing that instead. My main error that game was not going for Encore vs Kingambit with Dragonite, as I was debating whether my opponent would risk staying in, or if they'd go hard Lando/Valiant. That and the early game not being played well were the main mistakes I made.

In general I think Lando is a good enough answer to Roaring Moon for the exact sequence that happened within that game. You either Intimidate + get a lot of chip with U-turn + Rocky Helmet, or you force a tera out of the opponent while most likely having your tera in back to help handle it if necessary.
The benefit of having TPP around as OU moderator, post game analysis from the view of the goat himself.
 

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