Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Sure.... Whatever you say.
But speaking of iron leaves is there any use for it in OU? Like, it might be good...
Yeah, I said it aloud and even I don't believe myself.
The mon can be kinda shiest on E-terrain. With Electric Seed + Quark Drive, you get +1 Speed and Defense, giving it more opportunities to setup SD and maybe sweep. It gets good oppurtunties on some mons like some variants of Ogerpon-Wellspring, Great Tusk, etc. The issue though is that you are too reliant on Pincurchin + Terrain + Tera, and opposing Teras destroy the mon. Also, unlike something else like Hawlucha, Iron Leaves is reliant on the terrain being set up at all times. If the terrain ends, its completely exposed. The biggest issue is that it has big 4MSS + has a bunch of Tera types it wants, which makes it difficult to select the proper moveset difficult. It can sweep some teams, but the oppurtunity cost is a bit high I think for a mostly unreliable sweeper.
 
Sure.... Whatever you say.
But speaking of iron leaves is there any use for it in OU? Like, it might be good...
Yeah, I said it aloud and even I don't believe myself.
On a more serious note, I'm genuinely struggling to find a niche. It could fit a niche on HO teams as a way to force progress on dondozo/ alo with sd, but this calc, 252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 246-290 (46 - 54.3%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO, means it still can't do it reliably. especially with the burn chance. Maybe banded right?!?1 Nope. It stabs suck offensively and get walled easily unless your a god and predict correctly with secret sword on the incoming kambit. Only other team style that could work would be e terrain, you could get the speed boost while holding something like life orb for power. Sounds great in theory actually but it's typing and other faster booster mons are still a big issue
 
On a more serious note, I'm genuinely struggling to find a niche. It could fit a niche on HO teams as a way to force progress on dondozo/ alo with sd, but this calc, 252 Atk Iron Leaves Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 246-290 (46 - 54.3%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO, means it still can't do it reliably. especially with the burn chance. Maybe banded right?!?1 Nope. It stabs suck offensively and get walled easily unless your a god and predict correctly with secret sword on the incoming kambit. Only other team style that could work would be e terrain, you could get the speed boost while holding something like life orb for power. Sounds great in theory actually but it's typing and other faster booster mons are still a big issue
Yeah there's pretty much no reason to use it in OU when there's a multitude of really good offensive Grasses and fast(er) booster sweepers you could use instead.
 
How tricky are hoopa-u with focus sash mixatacker set with minus defenses and speed with trick room

And how good are spidos with aqua berry first impression, silk trap spikes and sticky web in bazares/gholdengo teams?
 
And how good are spidos with aqua berry first impression, silk trap spikes and sticky web in bazares/gholdengo teams?
hey man for next time it's better to avoid double posting, you can just edit your first post :)

and spidops is not that valuable afaik. silk trap is just objectively worse than both sticky web AND protect, and you could run those moves on mons that are better than spidops

hoopa-u does see some success but it requires a lot of support, and that 4x u-turn weakness is not very helpful. plus, trick room is very hard to justify in a meta plagued with taunt and priority
 

Duck Chris

replay watcher
is a Forum Moderator
:Roaring Moon:
Regarding Roaring Moon and the idea of some pokemon being just too strong for OU out of principle like box legends:
I think there is a discussion to be had at some point regarding what OU should be in terms of its main goal, because of course they are very nebulous.

:Great Tusk:
Currently the OU tiering framework emphasizes making the most skilled player win most of the time, creating a metagame that is free of broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy elements. Definitions for these terms can be found in the tiering policy framework.

Unspoken (as far as I'm aware) agreements is that this should be done with the fewest amount of bans necessary, it is ok to ban something even if it causes further bans after it, and unbans should have a reason to be considered testing besides just "why not".

:Koraidon:
I think OU manages this quite well tbh right now since even within those narrow definitions we have some metrics to look at.
Through the most recent major tournament statistics (SPL) the top pokemon is at 33% usage and the 10th spot is at 17%, with about 40 pokemon in OU range total. Compare this to ubers where the top pokemon has 79% usage in UWC, 10th spot is at 23%, and there are only 28 pokemon in the tier by usage and it's clear that OU is using a different standard of centralization that Ubers doesn't adhere to. This is an example of how OU differentiates itself from Ubers in more than just raw base stats and power.

:Gholdengo:
It can be easy to feel like due to the existence of certain pokemon like Kingambit and Gholdengo, the entire tier revolves around their existence in some ways due to controlling speed tiers and hazard game which is a big part of the meta. And similarly Roaring Moon can be considered to control things in that if you don't have a hard stop to it's DD set you can easilly just lose. But this has always been the case with top pokemon, for example Ferrothorn in BW is not something considered broken but it is something the metagame really revolves around between spikes and leech seed, making teams pack hidden power fire, strong fighting/ground moves, or magic guard.

:Zamazenta:
Minimum number of bans is kind of a misleading idea because there is no real way to know whether less bans would be more healthy without testing. Overall I think it is safe to say that assuming box legendaries to be too strong for OU is usually correct, and bringing them down without good reason would most likely result in the metagame warping heavily around their presence. It's just a rule of thumb but considering many of those pokemon have purposefully overpowered signature moves, abilities, bulk, speed, and recovery, I would think that any pokemon considered for an unban would have to have a notable lack of multiple of those categories. Zamazenta is a good example, sporting strong speed and bulk but having a lackluster ability (compared to other ubers), useless signature move, no recovery outside of rest, and a mediocre typing. Hoopa-Unbound is another example, with a strong Signature Move and power, but lackluster ability, bulk + defensive typing, speed, and no recovery. Kyurem also kind of fits with a useless signature move, no recovery, only medium bulk + typing and speed, and a relatively harmless ability.

:Chi-Yu:
In a way we have met in the middle between OU level pokemon that have been designed to be stronger than they look on first glance and Uber level pokemon with a design that works against them. But I think it's pretty clear when something is warping the whole metagame around it and/or has no counters, as we've seen in the past with things like Chi-Yu and Ursaluna-Bloodmoon. Roaring Moon is not that. Add that to the list of decently viable checks and counters others have brought up and I think it's clear that it's not a suspect worthy pokemon right now.
 
Sure.... Whatever you say.
But speaking of iron leaves is there any use for it in OU? Like, it might be good...
Yeah, I said it aloud and even I don't believe myself.
The biggest issue I think with Iron Leaves is more than any of the "Legendary" Paradoxes, it loses WAY too much from not having reliable Terrain to play with. Besides subbing for BE as the item slot, its Signature move only benefits from Terrain, and lacks Synergy with those to particularly encourage it (Psychic being a much worse typing than WW's Water while having two weathers to play with). It also just doesn't really have a distinct role: it's on the slow side for a Set-up Sweeper alongside mediocre Coverage, while lacking utility options to use its not-too-shabby Bulk either. Iron Crown works as a Bulky Offensive Pivot with Tachyon Cutter threatening stuff that interferes or tries to use Substitute to exploit it, while Boulder at least has a speed Glass-Cannon idea with Mighty Cleave having a notable niche (Protect breaking on stuff like Gliscor or defensive Scouts is useful even besides Rock Accuracy Memes).

This is the thing for me: Iron Leaves isn't simply bad at its job (as one might compare to Iron Boulder), it barely has one in the first place.
 
The biggest issue I think with Iron Leaves is more than any of the "Legendary" Paradoxes, it loses WAY too much from not having reliable Terrain to play with.
This is the biggest issue it has honestly. It actually can be pretty threatening when supported consistently by terrain, and SD+stabs+wildcharge is pretty wide reaching in terms of coverage (the latter boosted by Terrain). It's a shame that it's not an option because it has some cool on paper traits that just aren't easy to realize in practice because the tools it needs aren't there. (Though I remember fucking around with a Sub+3 Attacks leftovers set when it first released alongside WW and that was fun if not amazing).
 
Way back before the first dlc, I tried out a funky double terrain team with Eject Button Aboliva and Indeedee for the sole purpose of playing with Iron Leaves.

I still can't believe in that jumbled mess of a team, Leaves was the one who truly under preformed. It was fun swapping terrains back and forth, not even remotely doable now, but a blast. YoBut damn, Leaves! No matter what the STAB, no matter the terrain, it did nothing. It's typing makes it unable to power up, and then you'll have to Tera, all for lackluster results.
 
While I wouldn't say Roaring Moon is outright broken (I've defended it in the past), I do think there's something to be said about Pokémon that can make unmitigable progress, and how much progress we should allow. I think the main Pokémon who fit this designation are Booster Roaring Moon, Booster Raging Bolt, and lead Sash NP Darkrai, probably in that order. These are Pokémon who, even without set-up, can force damage on crucial targets with tempo, and they create a metagame where players are incentivized to out-offense the opponent at every stage of the battle.

The tempo designation here is important because if these mons are not dealt with immediately, they can spiral out of control. This means that even if their targets have recovery (Corviknight, Slowking-G, Blissey), and not all do (Lando-T, Tusk, Ting-Lu), taking a turn to do anything but damage, inflict status, pivot, or phase means you're risking a sweep on the spot. This is particularly devastating with cores like Roaring Moon+Zamazenta, or Raging Bolt+Darkrai, because slower-paced teams are not given the chance to shore up their defenses for whatever threat is next.

What makes these mons more questionably healthy than traditional breakers is their latent sweeping potential. This is no Rampardos theorem. They have opportunities to switch in and set-up, and they possess enough set diversity to circumvent traditional responses. Sure, they might not outright sweep every game, but they can consistently lay the groundwork for a threat in the wings to clean up shop.

Here's a team I've used up to the 1800s that puts this principle to work with both Bolt and Moon. I'm not saying they're outright broken, but I did want to shine a light on the way these mons function in the tier.
 
Way back before the first dlc, I tried out a funky double terrain team with Eject Button Aboliva and Indeedee for the sole purpose of playing with Iron Leaves.

I still can't believe in that jumbled mess of a team, Leaves was the one who truly under preformed. It was fun swapping terrains back and forth, not even remotely doable now, but a blast. YoBut damn, Leaves! No matter what the STAB, no matter the terrain, it did nothing. It's typing makes it unable to power up, and then you'll have to Tera, all for lackluster results.
You can still swap terrains back and forth. I used Rillaboom to fix the no priority issue on my Psychic Terrain teams. It's much better than Arboliva, which saddens me a little since I really love Arboliva's design.
 
You can still swap terrains back and forth. I used Rillaboom to fix the no priority issue on my Psychic Terrain teams. It's much better than Arboliva, which saddens me a little since I really love Arboliva's design.
Please, don't give up on Arbiva! I'm not saying it has OU viability, but it's at least good enough to have some fun with!

Strength Sap + Leech Seed + Tera flexibility + wide move pool and the stats to use it. Then it has two abilities that are very usable, and it can put in work.
 
Please, don't give up on Arbiva! I'm not saying it has OU viability, but it's at least good enough to have some fun with!

Strength Sap + Leech Seed + Tera flexibility + wide move pool and the stats to use it. Then it has two abilities that are very usable, and it can put in work.
So you are saying Arboliva is an S+ tier threat to the OU meta game?
 
Ive been thinking whether i want to post some replays about roaring moon cos people just think im a troll unfortunately most of the time but decided i will do it
View attachment 631017
Moon is a hot topic currently and I want to throw my hat in the ringer.

I’ve already made a post about it here months ago but most of what I said is still relevant to my current thoughts.

Roaring Moon isn’t an issue imo. It’s relatively one-dimensional about what it sets out to do. There’s DD 3atks and DD Taunt, along with the occasional CB Moon Sun. Exotic posted a really cool Moon spread that aims to hit harder and tank more hits, but it seems to have its own issues such as needing Webs and being outpaced by max Speed Lando, Kyurem, and Wogre. Still, kudos to Exotic for his innovations.

Without Volc, Moon has less setup opportunities, with most of the tier threatening to kill or cripple. Even its best setup opportunities like Glowking or Ghold can threaten with status.

While Moon has few hard checks, it can be handled with different team compositions like Lando + Raging Bolt, Corv + Weav, Gliscor + Gambit, Ting-Lu + Tinkaton, etc. Unlike with Volc, you only had to guess two sets and they reveal themselves quickly.

Just to list the Moon counterplay for a sec.

View attachment 631033Lando always lives a DD-boosted hit. It chips Moon with U-Turn and Helmet to put it in range of priority like Sucker, Clap, E-Speed, etc. Lando also can tech Rock Tomb/Stone Edge to check it on its own.

View attachment 631020Gliscor gets off a Toxic vs non-Taunt variants. Like Lando, it can U-Turn into something like Weavile.

View attachment 631022R-Bolt can Tera Fairy into an incoming EQ. It checks Taunt DD very nicely. It also punishes Tera Flying with Thunderclap. Even Adamant Knock doesn’t scratch this.

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 250-295 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

View attachment 631023Zama can Tera Steel and Roar the Roaring Moon out. Defensive Tera is not usually an argument, but with something that only fits on HO, I think its fair. Specially since it doesn’t hinder Zama much. Mirror Herb Zama also completely destroys this.

View attachment 631024Mola can fish for burns or pivot into R-Bolt, Weavile, Lando, Dnite, or Gambit. Not actually that reliable.

View attachment 631025One player used Dtail Dnite as a Moon check and it worked well. Even outside that, Dnite 2HKOs with Ice Spinner + E-Speed, or two Tera Normal E-Speeds. Depending on the matchup, trading Multiscale away to handle Moon should be fine. Just be mindful about the rare Tera Ghost.

View attachment 631026PhysD Garg can trade with Moon or 1v1 with Tera Fairy. Pre-Tera Garg also lives a +1 EQ after rocks.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Garganacl: 282-334 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

It also does well into DD Taunt.

View attachment 631027Ting-Lu can Whirlwind non-Taunt variants out or chip it in range of priority with Ruination.

View attachment 631028Weavile doesn’t eat a +1 hit, but it can rkill it after Moon gets chipped into range which isn’t hard to do in a game-to-game basis.

View attachment 631029Perhaps the closest to being a hard check. Living a hit at full and either threatening to cripple with T-Wave or Sticky Barb.

View attachment 631030Corv can live a hit and chip with RH + U-Turn for its teammates.

View attachment 631031Mid mon. Skarm beats non-Taunt variants.

View attachment 631032It doesn’t live a +1 Knock, nor does it like to switch in, but it can rkill with Bullet Punch. CB Tera Steel BP also outright kills this after a bit of chip.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 286-338 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

View attachment 631034View attachment 631035Ditch the old Zapdos spread. Go full-out with physical bulk since you avoid a 2HKO from Tusk Ice Spinner anyways and it has far more benefits like avoiding an OHKO from +2 Tera Dark Val and more importantly, living a +1 Knock from Moon.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 261-307 (67.9 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Though you lose Boots, Zapdos can trade with Moon to get off a T-Wave or lucky Static proc. For Taunt Moon you can always run Discharge which can still land consistent paralysis.

Moltres is the same except burns are much more damaging to Moon.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 285-336 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

View attachment 631038Vs non-Taunt variants, G-Weez does well into it if you opt to run Levitate. It eats any +1 hit and threatens with Wisp.

View attachment 631039Tankchomp is pretty unexplored in the meta. RH + Rough Skin punishes physical attackers or U-Turn spam all while providing Spikes and a phazer to the team. Basically a faster more physically-oriented Ting-Lu with a free Helmet. Chomp also outright checks Moon, always tanking a +1 hit and Dtailing it out.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Garchomp: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

I am actually curious about Adamant Moon though. What does it OHKO or 2HKO that Jolly doesn’t?
Im going to address this
 
Just so you guys know, im no gen9 ou expert but i got to 1950+ elo, running the same team so much with the most basic bitch standard sets to boot pretty sure multiple people on the ladder knew my team... but some of them still couldnt beat it lol and my team is a roaring moon based team. If that mon isnt banned i will continue to abuse it and i encourage yall to do the same giga stronk mon, u just farm peoples elo w it.

Now here are some of the replays i can find vs fat stuff w my roaring moon team idk why so much stuff was written so much checks roaring moon... like finchinator said its so good at forcing progress, it so good on ho teams for what it does (only ho teams are suitable for using moon)

Replay 1 my moon weakened the skarm off and i ran the guys team over:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102089389?p2
Replay 234 guy with balance knows my team but he still cant beat it lol:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102063470
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2102107252
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2115332745

Extra replays of me brute forcing my way through with roaring moon lead cos enemy so weak to it, i just had to do it, i duno why 658greninja showed us tour replays of ppl being scared to lead moon when enemy team is destroyed, just do it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2114949942
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2117511076
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2082355053?p2

Heres 1 more of me using moon to hole smash the enemys team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2114980194

Still think the mon isnt broken? Harhar

roaring gooner (Roaring Moon) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Taunt

this is the set eq is matchup fishy and sux imo taunt is ssss tier glhf
 
I might be a DPP Boomer, well back when Scizor was considered good, but I’ve been really enjoying Scizor. Priority is so important in this meta, and with an SD boost or Choice Band Scizor hits hard. Being resistant to Ice and Fairy is also quite valuable, and considering how popular Fairy is as a typing, Tera or not, having a hard hitting Steel prio is actually pretty nice. It’s also not a momentum vacuum either thanks to good ol’Stab-Turn, and Broke-Off. Idk, just think the little bug is neat!
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
To me something that is really unexplored about Roaring Moon is that it actually has a lot of good traits that are not just its sweeping capabilities. I think it'd be neat to see some sets that aren't based around Protosynthesis, especially since it'd allow it to be more flexible on non-Offense teams.
 

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