Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Low ladder is the wild west of Pokemon. I've seen more gimmicks, and diversity in low ladder than I have ever seen at the points when I've reached mid or high ladder. I got cooked by a fucking Maranga Berry Garganacl. Can you honestly say what Maranga Berry does without looking it up, or did you even know it existed? Cause I sure didn't! I've seen Guard Dog Adrenaline Orb Okidogi. I've seen like 5 Weakness Policy Sticky Webs. Teams packing multiple Eject Packs and Red Cards. Just weird niche strategies that made me feel like I was getting farmed for Youtube videos. Think I'm just going to spam Roaring Moon from now on.
I feel the same dam way. I one time got swept by a dam sd Darkai that was running for some god forbidden reason sludge bomb.
Don't leak my strats like this online this is secret fucking tech buddy
WE CAN SWEAR???? OH FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!! (I never knew, now I can abuse this new founded power)
 
Low ladder is the wild west of Pokemon. I've seen more gimmicks, and diversity in low ladder than I have ever seen at the points when I've reached mid or high ladder. I got cooked by a fucking Maranga Berry Garganacl. Can you honestly say what Maranga Berry does without looking it up, or did you even know it existed? Cause I sure didn't! I've seen Guard Dog Adrenaline Orb Okidogi. I've seen like 5 Weakness Policy Sticky Webs. Teams packing multiple Eject Packs and Red Cards. Just weird niche strategies that made me feel like I was getting farmed for Youtube videos. Think I'm just going to spam Roaring Moon from now on.
low ladder is just random shit thrown at a wall half the time i remember i fought a dude with ENTIRELY red card pokemon, like Nothing but that item, i just use hyperoffense anytime im down there your hyper specific mon with an item no ones heard of maybe cool but how does it fair against +1 atk booster roaring moon tera fly acro ?
 
i just use hyperoffense anytime im down there your hyper specific mon with an item no ones heard of maybe cool but how does it fair against +1 atk booster roaring moon tera fly acro ?
Unironically tried Moon for the first time recently after falling due to rage queuing, and the amount of damage big green bar does against everything else is honestly serotonin inducing. I understand now why people roll their face on their keyboard with these things.

Some poor sod brought out Tusk at Full HP expecting to live an Acrobatics. Never stood a chance, unfortunately
 
One of the major points levied at Volcarona during its suspect was that it was rarely a dead slot. Even if it wasn't 6-0ing teams on preview, its typing and abilities allowed it to stay relevant and still contribute. I feel much the same about Roaring Moon, the only major differentiating factors being that it's mostly limited to HO teams and you don't have to contend with a bucketload of shitty RNG. Even in the games where it doesn't look like it does much, its ability to force progress often lets you later end up in a winning position.

I will say that I'm definitely not convinced yet that moon is banworthy, and the current meta is quite good for it. We'll have to see as the metagame adjusts, but I've played enough recently to feel that it's definitely an unhealthy presence in a lot of ways. You know exactly what set it's running and it still rarely ever fails to do its job.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
OKIDOGI NATION
IMG_4859.jpeg

Here with another spicy mon I’ve been playing around with. An overlooked legendary dog foreshadowed by the top dog of the tier, Zamazenta, who has been terrorizing OU since it dropped with the ability to pick and choose its checks between options like Roar, Heavy Slam, Stone Edge, Substitute, Rest, etc, followed with Terastilization, but this write-up is dedicated to the one that doesn’t give a shit, I’m referring to Okidogi.

Okidogi’s Niche In SV Overused
IMG_4861.png

Okidogi @ Leftovers/Lum Berry
Ability: Guard Dog
Tera Type: Flying/Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab

(92 Speed outruns Jolly
IMG_5482.png
)

The main highlight of Okidogi is its ability to completely hard wall and 1v1
IMG_4652.png
with Bulk Up due to resisting Body Press, along with solid 88/115 physical bulk.

“B..but what about Roar-“

Okidogi doesn’t give a shit about Roar, wanna know why? It has Guard Dog, an ability you forgot about because it’s on a fucking ZU mon, but Okidogi is built different. To enlighten you on what it does, Guard Dog prevents you from being phazed out and also randomly boosts your Attack by 1 if Intimidated by
IMG_0688.png
for some reason.
This means
IMG_4652.png
is completely helpless in stopping Okidogi from beefing up. Guard Dog and its natural bulk also lets you 1v1
IMG_8884.png
which is kinda nuts.

If this was all Okidogi does, then I wouldn’t bother, but I found it to do more than just being the
IMG_4652.png
wall.
Okidogi functions very similarly to
IMG_4652.png
, being able to check
IMG_5482.png
and
IMG_2526.png
while bulking up with well…Bulk Up. It can even tank a +2 non-Tera Cudgel from
IMG_8858.png
if necessary.

+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 259-306 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Okidogi in comparison to
IMG_4652.png
, has several distinct traits over it.

• Okidogi has access to STAB Poison Jab, allowing it to puncture through the
IMG_4648.png
IMG_4791.png
IMG_4751.png
that would check non-Heavy Slam
IMG_4652.png
.

• With Knock Off, Okidogi performs better into
IMG_5483.png
IMG_4647.png
IMG_5276.png
and grants it early-to-mid game utility while cr
IMG_5481.png
,
IMG_0688.png
, etc.

• Unlike Zama, Okidogi can absorb Toxic Spikes. Having a way to deal with them is important for offensive structures, especially with
IMG_5280.png
skyrocketing in usage.
Absorbing Toxic Spikes while functioning similarly to
IMG_4652.png
is a major asset.

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 186-218 (49 - 57.5%) -- 52% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Okidogi: 115-136 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery



0 SpA Hatterene Psyshock vs. +1 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 208-252 (54.8 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 114-135 (30 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery



+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. +1 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 207-244 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 260-309 (68.6 - 81.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



252+ Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 71-84 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery



0 Atk Okidogi Poison Jab vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 272-324 (84.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO



252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Okidogi: 190-225 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



+2 0 Atk Okidogi Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 406-478 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO



144+ SpA Slowking-Galar Psyshock vs. +1 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 220-264 (58 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



0 SpA Slowking-Galar Psyshock vs. +1 248 HP / 168+ Def Okidogi: 172-208 (45.3 - 54.8%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Partners

IMG_5482.png

Gambit is one of the best partners for Okidogi. Not only does Gambit appreciate its ability to check Zama, but also its ability to wear down Lando/Tusk with Knock Off. It also nicely handle

IMG_8879.png
IMG_8868.png
IMG_8858.png

Like with Gambit, physical offensive threats like Roaring Moon and Dragonite all appreciate Okidogi’s ability to disrupt Zama and other physical walls.

IMG_4744.png

Okidogi and Raging Bolt both do a good job in wearing down Ground types. Raging Bolt also threatens Dondozo who can be a tad bit annoying for Okidogi.

IMG_4606.png
+
IMG_4789.png
/
IMG_8922.png
/
IMG_2526.png

One of Okidogi’s worst matchup is Gliscor, and Corv + Boots Darkrai/Kyurem/Weavile is one of the best ways to handle it. Corv also switches into Tusk and other Grounds. Since Okidogi handles Gambit, Corv can afford to run special investmest which answers nicely into Deoxys-Speed and switch into Psychic moves in general. Darkrai in particular also threatens Okidogi’s other bad matchup, Gholdengo.

IMG_4647.png

Pult loves Okidogi being able to check Gambit and Zama, the latter means Pult doesn’t have to switch into Crunches which helps Pult preserve HP for other threats. Pult can spread burns and invites in mons like Ting-Lu and Gambit, giving Okidogi entry points via U-Turn.

IMG_4797.png

Crown can switch into the special hits that threaten Okidogi while supporting it with Volt Switch and Future Sight.

IMG_4793.png

Since Okidogi handles many physically offensive threats already, Dozo can run more special bulk to answer Pokemon like CM Val or NP Ghold.

IMG_8884.png
IMG_4650.png

Ting-Lu appreciates Okidogi being able to be a Zama check with Knock while setting up hazards for it. Ting-Lu also checks some troublesome matchups like Raging Bolt and Gholdengo. Samurott is similar, but more offensive.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2120431659-tkyywrtpz0ou734g74cwisnp0qi8n4spw (vs Leng Loi)

Okidogi 6-0s the whole team with the help of some paralysis luck to set up Bulk Ups, it gets hit with huge damage from Heatran’s Overheat (cool set btw), but it lives the Darkrai Ice Beam and heals off with Drain Punch before proceeding to sweep the whole team, even 1v1ing the Rest Zama.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2120021681

Even after being burnt, Okidogi sweeps the team once it Terastilizes in front of the Lando.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2120015484

Okidogi shows worth in this game by absorbing Toxic Spikes and then later sweeping the whole team after getting an opportunity vs the Kingambit.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2119989783

Okidogi switches into Zama and sets up on the burnt Lando.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2119975922

Okidogi easily 1v1s the Roar Zama and sweeps after I read the Moth switch.

That is all, I hope you’ve been convinced to try out Okidogi yourselves.

To conclude, here’s piss-colored Okidogi

IMG_4860.png
 
Don't remind me of this monstrosity they created. I will never forgive them for making it piss coloured, and this bad of a piss colour.

I am definetely interested in trying out okidogi, it's prob a D rank mon tbh that you can sometimes use.
I am now going to try out munkidori and see how that works lmao.
 
based on Gren's write-up, and my own experiences, i have a small very unrelated question. i used to have 219 as the speed benchmark for slower mons as that still outspeeds jolly gambit, but jolly gambit ain't even listed in the standard sets and afaik its fallen out of grace. is it still worthwhile or is it not that important? what are some benchmarks you guys take into consideration?
 
based on Gren's write-up, and my own experiences, i have a small very unrelated question. i used to have 219 as the speed benchmark for slower mons as that still outspeeds jolly gambit, but jolly gambit ain't even listed in the standard sets and afaik its fallen out of grace. is it still worthwhile or is it not that important? what are some benchmarks you guys take into consideration?
The most important benchmarks are 200 (Adamant Gambit), 219 (Jolly Gambit), and 301 (Jolly Tusk). Lesser benchmarks are 177 for 0 Speed Skarm (also outspeeds Corv), 227 for 0 Speed Gliscor, and 250 for Modest Raging Bolt. The speed creep metagame involves running a point or two over these benchmarks (like 201 speed on Primarina) to get the jump on other Pokémon also aiming for a particular speed tier.

Faster Pokémon tend to just run max speed, but some ultra-fast Pokémon like Zamazenta and Deoxys-Speed can run specific speeds to invest in other stats. IronPress Zama tends to run enough speed for base 125s (384) like Darkrai, Weavile, and Meow (who's 124), or for +1 Adamant Dragonite (389) which is currently the Smogon spread. Deoxys-Speed, if not running max Speed, aims for at least 451, to outspeed +1 Jolly Great Tusk.
 
based on Gren's write-up, and my own experiences, i have a small very unrelated question. i used to have 219 as the speed benchmark for slower mons as that still outspeeds jolly gambit, but jolly gambit ain't even listed in the standard sets and afaik its fallen out of grace. is it still worthwhile or is it not that important?
according to last month's stats (1695+), gambit runs jolly at least 15% of the time, which to me is enough to factor in when it's the most used mon in the tier. furthermore, speed-creeping jolly sets lets you outspeed the adamant sets also, so it's more often a benefit to just invest the extra evs into speed instead of trying (usually in vain) to live stuff from gambit
 
Is it just me or is it almost impossible to prep for most threats on the standard braindead HO without going almost full stall? It seems like this gen is and has been for almost the entire duration (outside of gliscor ban era) picking your HO team and then praying it has a better matchup into theirs. Anything else is way too slow or fragile, even when youre running 4-5 defensive mons.

Even relying on unaware mons is iffy considering the state of hazard removal and the ubiquity of Gholdengo who cant be status and can trick past its slower counter.

IDK Im just at a lost lol. Sure I can spam some random HO into the 1700-1800s but its neither fun or interesting and every team begins to devolve into glimmora lead then prayer/mu fishing.

Im open to be proven wrong if someone can show me a successful balance team that beats most stuff on high ladder.

I honestly think a big reason balance is so ass imo is that is usually only preps a dedicated answer or two to the big threats. In past gens that would be fine most times but if they tera and take out said counter you really are shit out of luck and against most things you cant just switch around and give them a free turn. Its game ending
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Is it just me or is it almost impossible to prep for most threats on the standard braindead HO without going almost full stall? It seems like this gen is and has been for almost the entire duration (outside of gliscor ban era) picking your HO team and then praying it has a better matchup into theirs. Anything else is way too slow or fragile, even when youre running 4-5 defensive mons.

Even relying on unaware mons is iffy considering the state of hazard removal and the ubiquity of Gholdengo who cant be status and can trick past its slower counter.

IDK Im just at a lost lol. Sure I can spam some random HO into the 1700-1800s but its neither fun or interesting and every team begins to devolve into glimmora lead then prayer/mu fishing.

Im open to be proven wrong if someone can show me a successful balance team that beats most stuff on high ladder.

I honestly think a big reason balance is so ass imo is that is usually only preps a dedicated answer or two to the big threats. In past gens that would be fine most times but if they tera and take out said counter you really are shit out of luck and against most things you cant just switch around and give them a free turn. Its game ending
There’s alot of good balance teams and balance is in a good spot rn. With many variations of balance like..

Boots Spam/Hazard Stacking Balance

Mola + Breaker Balance

Voltturn Balance

Tusk Balance

Fat Balance

Garg Balance

etc

Plus balance can fit more diverse picks like Amoonguss, Moltres, and G-Weezing which can cover different matchups.

Balance sees huge success on high ladder and tours, even while HO is the most common archetype. Its just a matter of careful building.
 
There were balance teams floating around when the dct1 players were laddering those games were in the 1800+ range. I can't say too much more cos I haven't played with anything else cept ho but I think all 3 styles are OK, it's just you and I don't get how to play other styles. Definitely is easier though to run 6 broken mons on 1 team and run your opponent over
 
Is it just me or is it almost impossible to prep for most threats on the standard braindead HO without going almost full stall? It seems like this gen is and has been for almost the entire duration (outside of gliscor ban era) picking your HO team and then praying it has a better matchup into theirs. Anything else is way too slow or fragile, even when youre running 4-5 defensive mons.

Even relying on unaware mons is iffy considering the state of hazard removal and the ubiquity of Gholdengo who cant be status and can trick past its slower counter.

IDK Im just at a lost lol. Sure I can spam some random HO into the 1700-1800s but its neither fun or interesting and every team begins to devolve into glimmora lead then prayer/mu fishing.

Im open to be proven wrong if someone can show me a successful balance team that beats most stuff on high ladder.

I honestly think a big reason balance is so ass imo is that is usually only preps a dedicated answer or two to the big threats. In past gens that would be fine most times but if they tera and take out said counter you really are shit out of luck and against most things you cant just switch around and give them a free turn. Its game ending
I know it can feel overwhelming and there is a lot to account for rn, threat saturation is a common complaint. But it's not at all impossible to play balance or bulkier teams, even stall, this gen and multiple people have creatively made solid to great teams of these playstyles.

Balance is not ass at all. It's a great playstyle People have gotten rather creative in putting these teams together and there are players bringing balance to higher level games. And there's a fair amount of different types of balance squads running around. I have my issues with the tier (Kyurem and Wellspring mainly) but it's not "HO or bust" like some people love to believe. There's still room for innovation and the fact we're seeing innovation despite the presence of such mons is a testament to that.
 
It helps newbier players they recently implemented this thing where games where players have a medal or have ladder tournament prefix forces games to be public so these players have battle or replays to look at or refer to when trying to teambuild. It's really helpful for learning to build balance cos I don't think it's easy to build anything not ho this gen. There's also always the option of looking through tournament games. Give people more resources.

Downside is I don't think most ppl want their games and replays to be public especially if u were a tournament player prepping for something or u just didn't want to share your successful team w others. Very stupid how they just forced it upon us but ig it's not that bad considering it's helping newbies... or teamstealers.
 
There’s alot of good balance teams and balance is in a good spot rn. With many variations of balance like..

Boots Spam/Hazard Stacking Balance

Mola + Breaker Balance

Voltturn Balance

Tusk Balance

Fat Balance

Garg Balance

etc

Plus balance can fit more diverse picks like Amoonguss, Moltres, and G-Weezing which can cover different matchups.

Balance sees huge success on high ladder and tours, even while HO is the most common archetype. Its just a matter of careful building.
i've seen an increasing number of hoopa-unbounds on balance and tried it out myself to (pun intended) mixed results. the mon can legit 6-0 stall at preview with the right set. any advice for building around it? best partners, optimal sets/spreads, best points of entry, etc?
 
Maybe it's the hours I play at or my middling ranking, but I feel like I'm seeing a disproportionate number of Scarf Dragapults running around. Have people become so addicted to speed they're now scarfing their Dragapults? Is the Dragon Dance Roaring Moon threat too great? Is this actually a heat set I'm missing out on? Surely sacrificing so much power on a choice lock for only outspeeding a few things is not worth it.
 
Maybe it's the hours I play at or my middling ranking, but I feel like I'm seeing a disproportionate number of Scarf Dragapults running around. Have people become so addicted to speed they're now scarfing their Dragapults? Is the Dragon Dance Roaring Moon threat too great? Is this actually a heat set I'm missing out on? Surely sacrificing so much power on a choice lock for only outspeeding a few things is not worth it.
It's not worth it. It's probably just ladder being ladder by being weird. I did try out scarf dragapult at one point, but the choice lock and lack of power is too much. Most of the time, a scarf/booster mon + priority is enough, so no, you did not miss out on anything.
 
Ok. So I wanted to give an update on the testing results of my double Terrain team. The core 4 remains the same. The best combination I have found for the last 2 slots so far is Corv/Zama. I tried testing testing suggestions of Geezing, AV Hatt, and Sticky Barb Clef to varying degrees of mediocrity to outright failure. The biggest problem was the lack of pivoting. I wound up trying Misty Explosion variants of all 3 due to this, but none of that is nearly as good as Corv even getting off 2-3 slow U-turns a game without necesarrily killing itself in the process.

Geezing was by far the best of these. It gave me a defogger to maintain my sash on Polteageist, a resistance to Grassy Glide, a T-spikes absorber, and other tech. Psychic seed on it was a little nice, actually, as it gave it makes up for the bad special bulk. I found the best result was to run Geezing next to Zama as Corv/Geezing was way too passive. But it still wasn't as good as Corv next to Zama, which also gives you a very reliable pivot and some offense. The biggest problem with Geezing is that, while it helped me with a lot of important matchups, it was often too passive and could be taken advantage of. Like you'd think Geezing would help against Web Ghold teams, and like it does on my other teams where I have used it, but on this team it was often shut down by faster Taunt mons or pivoted on. Then it just becomes a momentum sink on a team that already has momentum issues. The other issue is that, due to its passivity, Geezing versions of the team would often wind up losing to niche crap I ran into such as Throat Spray Speed Boost Yanmega, Manaphy despite me packing Clear Smog, or Overheat Eject Button Delphox. The lack of pivoting killed me against all 3.

I think the other problem was my Psyspam team, like most teams of the archetype, is rather offensive. A balance team could make up for more of Geezing's weaknesses. Or maybe even an HO team that was more purposefully built for it. To be clear, Geezing wasn't bad. I saw potential for it. I don't even think it's necesarrily even bad on Psyspam. But it didn't entirely fulfill the role of the glue mon my team so desperately needed. For every matchup it helped me with, it left some other random flaw the team couldn't really afford.

AV Hatt was a very bad fit. The very first game, I switched it in and it got 2 shot by Walking Wake before it could move. Wake is a bit of a bad matchup because there isn't much on the team that can take Fire moves. So for the designated special wall to be KO'd like that, well, it really sucked to see that. I might as well just not run a special wall and play the sac game like HO should. Admittedly, I didn't go max special defense. But I was close to max HP and Assault Vest, so it shouldn't have needed much sp. def. investment. And while I could generally live a hit or maybe two, there wasn't a ton I could do after that much of the time. It just wound up being a momentum sink. From a hazard standpoint, Hatt as the only deterrence just isn't good enough. You can't necesarrily predict for sure when hazards will be used. AV Hatt wants to be blindly switched into guessing hazard scenarios much less than other items I have run on it.

Speaking of other items I have run on it, both Eject Button and Red Card were far better set for me on Psychic Terrain than AV. Healing Wish was way more useful for getting back momentum than Misty Explosion. Red Card wound up being better for me in past tests due to the Eject Button set often taking too much chip on the switch to get a move off later and that it doesn't address setup sweepers. But both were better than AV because they let me switch cleanly. Hatt on Psyspam can work. But AV Hatt didn't fit my team at all. I suppose I could have tried Psychic Seed instead since that wouldn't have restricted me from using status moves, but I still found the momentum sink to be problematic.

Clefable was interesting. Having rocks was nice. Having a Fairy type was nice. The passivity was not nice. Wish and no pivot move was nicer in theory than practice for an offensive team like this. I mostly ran Clef next to Corv for the Defog and pivoting. This was good in some matchups and too passive for others. I faced Roaring Moon a decent amount and never really got to use Sticky Barb on it much for various reasons like a lack of proper momentum to do so. Part of that was because I often faced Moon on teams with other Dark types. Not having Zama for that matchup would make it much harder for me to break through. The Sticky Barb Clef seems to work better against Moon on teams that can stall it out or have different priority to RK it than just Grassy Glide, which loses to Tera Flying. I also found myself really wanting Unaware and setup against a lot of my matchups.

Using Clef next to Zama was better in some ways. It's less passive and better against Dark spam. The problem was it is absolutely brutal dealing with hazards when you don't have a single hazard clear option or even a deterrent. This team cannot really afford to run HDB. Here, Magic Guard felt much more necessary. But it didn't matter if the rest of the team still lost to hazards.

In conclusion, Geezing was good yet flawed and the other two were very lacking. I do think that different sets of Hatt or perhaps even Clef could do better. But I don't think I will try them since they aren't what I'm looking for. For my closing thoughts, I'll just try to explain why this is. First of all, Psyspam loses momentum really, really easily. Dark types switching into the Psychic move, particularly on a choice locked mon, is free most of the time. This necessitates the ability to get momentum back. Without Corv, I cannot fit the role compression of slow pivot and hazard clear into a single slot. Not to mention how vital it is to have something to switch into opposing Rillaboom so Grassy Terrain teams don't auto-win against me.

In my testing, Zama helps the Dark spam matchup so much that it arguably even became favorable for me. With it, I think I won most of the games I faced that. Without it, teams with 2-3 Dark types or so would tend to be too hard to break through. In addition, Zama gets me the phasing I need to help me against setup sweepers and certain BE speed mons like Iron Valiant and Iron Moth. It's not the best check to Roaring Moon, but being able to phase RM once is huge for my other fast threats to be able to deal with it later. There is a combination of offense, defense, typing, speed, and phasing that no other mon can provide. And it really helps patch many holes.

The current 6 I have are not perfect. But I believe they are the best version of the team I have made so far. There is a lot less that you auto-lose to in the builder. I think I'm close to the closing chapter on it.
 
Last edited:
With Knock Off, Okidogi performs better into
IMG_5483.png
IMG_4647.png
IMG_5276.png
and grants it early-to-mid game utility while cr
IMG_5481.png
,
IMG_0688.png
, etc.

• Unlike Zama, Okidogi can absorb Toxic Spikes. Having a way to deal with them is important for offensive structures, especially with
IMG_5280.png
skyrocketing in usage.
Absorbing Toxic Spikes while functioning similarly to
IMG_4652.png
is a major asset.
I've been an Okidogi believer for a few months since its release, the Bulk up set is legit so fucking good and I've had great success with it against a lot of these threats here. I personally prefer Gunk Shot myself (accuracy aside) as avoiding Zapdos or Moltres bullshit is pretty important at times. Poison Jab is no doubt more reliable though, and overall easier.

The match up into Zama is the biggest thing to me. This stupid dog is the most annoying shit possible and being able to have an answer to it with double resist is massive. I've experimented with more SPD focused sets with it as well, and they've preformed nicely in the right teamcomps to allow answers to SPA attackers like select Valiant sets or similar.

Definitely way better than it seems at first, big fan of this dog.
 
Is it just me or is it almost impossible to prep for most threats on the standard braindead HO without going almost full stall? It seems like this gen is and has been for almost the entire duration (outside of gliscor ban era) picking your HO team and then praying it has a better matchup into theirs. Anything else is way too slow or fragile, even when youre running 4-5 defensive mons.

Even relying on unaware mons is iffy considering the state of hazard removal and the ubiquity of Gholdengo who cant be status and can trick past its slower counter.

IDK Im just at a lost lol. Sure I can spam some random HO into the 1700-1800s but its neither fun or interesting and every team begins to devolve into glimmora lead then prayer/mu fishing.

Im open to be proven wrong if someone can show me a successful balance team that beats most stuff on high ladder.

I honestly think a big reason balance is so ass imo is that is usually only preps a dedicated answer or two to the big threats. In past gens that would be fine most times but if they tera and take out said counter you really are shit out of luck and against most things you cant just switch around and give them a free turn. Its game ending
Offensive mons need one attacking stat while defensive mons need two, meaning they benefit more from BST creeping up; it's even worse for defensive mons that try to be bulky on both sides, as now they are reliant on three stats. When you need HP, Def, and SDef there's not a lot left over for speed or attacking back. Meanwhile, there's a long history of mons with high speed, a high attacking stat, and everything else mediocre to poor finding success in OU, such as Weavile or Meowscarada.

There's additional factors that are just as important, as well, such as new high BP attacks like Dragon Glaive or Ivy Cudgel, while recovery has been nerfed and "attacking" options for passive mons, such as Toxic and Scald, have had their distributions restricted. Further, with the exception of the ID/BP combo, strictly defensive setup moves are rare while setup that boosts attacking stats is common, further tilting the power toward offense.

Finally, hazard removal options being so few in number (and I'm not talking about Gholdengo, I mean the move availability period) forces HDB on more and more defensive mons, which means fewer Leftovers and less longevity in general. A turn of Leftovers was frequently the difference between a 2HKO and a 3HKO, which cuts back on bulk in general.
 
Is it just me or is it almost impossible to prep for most threats on the standard braindead HO without going almost full stall? It seems like this gen is and has been for almost the entire duration (outside of gliscor ban era) picking your HO team and then praying it has a better matchup into theirs. Anything else is way too slow or fragile, even when youre running 4-5 defensive mons.

Even relying on unaware mons is iffy considering the state of hazard removal and the ubiquity of Gholdengo who cant be status and can trick past its slower counter.

IDK Im just at a lost lol. Sure I can spam some random HO into the 1700-1800s but its neither fun or interesting and every team begins to devolve into glimmora lead then prayer/mu fishing.

Im open to be proven wrong if someone can show me a successful balance team that beats most stuff on high ladder.

I honestly think a big reason balance is so ass imo is that is usually only preps a dedicated answer or two to the big threats. In past gens that would be fine most times but if they tera and take out said counter you really are shit out of luck and against most things you cant just switch around and give them a free turn. Its game ending
Balance is great and it’s perfect possible to do well with it.

Recently been hovering around 1800 with a fat balance.
 
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