Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Is it just me or is it almost impossible to prep for most threats on the standard braindead HO without going almost full stall? It seems like this gen is and has been for almost the entire duration (outside of gliscor ban era) picking your HO team and then praying it has a better matchup into theirs. Anything else is way too slow or fragile, even when youre running 4-5 defensive mons.

Even relying on unaware mons is iffy considering the state of hazard removal and the ubiquity of Gholdengo who cant be status and can trick past its slower counter.

IDK Im just at a lost lol. Sure I can spam some random HO into the 1700-1800s but its neither fun or interesting and every team begins to devolve into glimmora lead then prayer/mu fishing.

Im open to be proven wrong if someone can show me a successful balance team that beats most stuff on high ladder.

I honestly think a big reason balance is so ass imo is that is usually only preps a dedicated answer or two to the big threats. In past gens that would be fine most times but if they tera and take out said counter you really are shit out of luck and against most things you cant just switch around and give them a free turn. Its game ending
bro. balance is easily the best archetype right now, even with all the silly balance breakers running around. it's also the second most used archetype on high ladder as of last month ("weatherless" doesn't count). saying balance is bad or underperforming right now is kind of ridiculous when it's currently at one of the best points it's ever been
 
Are there any good leech seed setters? Or at least niche ones that won't die immediately?

I kinda miss using it, but it feels like the grass types that exist are better to just mash the button with
 
Are there any good leech seed setters? Or at least niche ones that won't die immediately?

I kinda miss using it, but it feels like the grass types that exist are better to just mash the button with
Serperior is basically the only one that doesn't suck while having decent defenses. You can technically use something like vileplume, but that's very niche.
 
Can someone give me info about Clefable + Gliscor balance builds? Just want to get into hazardstack.
Clefable and gliscor are some of the few defensive mons that can afford not to run boots while also being able to set up hazards, the added longevity shows especially in longer games, both mons get knock off which allow you to remove boots.
On these type of hazard stack teams, you need pokemon that can both learn knock and threaten other gliscor and clef.
Eg- SD weavile, meowscarada with tripel axel etc

You also usually run rapid spin tusk and/or spam boots on every mon.
 
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Are there any good leech seed setters? Or at least niche ones that won't die immediately?

I kinda miss using it, but it feels like the grass types that exist are better to just mash the button with
Serp is the only OU mon that runs it. But if you wanted to try a lower tier mon that can be viable in OU, Comfey gets Leech Seed. I don't know if Leech Seed is good on it, but it might be your best shot.

Maybe you could do something strange with Poison Heal Sub Breloom, but I doubt it. The speed tier sucks. Encore is way too prevalent. What else...

Brambleghast is an NU mon, but maybe it could be a spinblocker?

Oh yeah. Whimsicott exists. You get Prankster Sub/Leech Seed sets. It's a PU mon for a reason, but if you wanted to stall you can. Run it on Grassy Terrain to get free Subs. GT gives you 1/16th recovery and so does Leftovers. Together, that is 1/8th. So in two turns you get 1/4 before even Leech Seed recovery. Run Sub/Protect/Leech Seed/Encore.

Wo-Chien is straight trash, but it could be decent if you don't mind sacrificing your Tera option to it virtually every game.

Can someone give me info about Clefable + Gliscor balance builds? Just want to get into hazardstack.
Gliscor can run spikes and Clef can run rocks. Or you can can get another hazard setter to free up Clef. You don't have to run HDB on either. You can either make a team that cares less about hazards naturally or run boots spam. You'll want to avoid using Ace since you are hazard stacking. You also probably want to use a spinner over Defog since you are hazard stack. Great Tusk is always a good glue mon. Glimmora can't normally be a primary spinner, but it would give you more hazards and other interesting options. You can also use having a grounded poison like Glimm or Glowking to absorb T-spikes. Glowking is really good as a pivot and Regenerator is very handy for sustain. Future Sight is also really useful in pressuring opponents into things they don't necesarrily want to do.

You will want at least one very strong wallbreaker and/or primary attacker with Knock Off. You will usually want at least one mon to help clean and check faster teams. Priority of some sort is usually important unless you are building really bulky and more passive. Phasing is also really common since you can keep chipping the opposing mons with hazards. Gambit and Zama are very good at role compression. Tera Fire Meow is surprisingly good on hazard stack and some boots spam teams due to the ability to hit most walls with STAB crit Grass, Knock Off, and maybe a Fire move while avoiding Burns.
 
bro. balance is easily the best archetype right now, even with all the silly balance breakers running around. it's also the second most used archetype on high ladder as of last month ("weatherless" doesn't count). saying balance is bad or underperforming right now is kind of ridiculous when it's currently at one of the best points it's ever been
Never seen this stats page before - how is this even defined lmao
 
Been Playing with Roaring Moon and Ogerpon-W for a couple of days now to see if my opinion on them would change, and so far not really. Ogerpon-W is a fantastic Pokemon. Easily one of the best Wallbreakers in the Tier thanks to a variety of factors. Though I have often found that outside of threating slow, defensive Pokemon there isn't a whole lot going for it. 110 was fast 10 years ago let's be real. By current standards 110 speed sits in this awkward spot where yes it's faster than pretty much every Pokemon it wants to whack, but is still so much slower than a good amount of the other offensive threats of the tier. All of whom threaten to KO poor little Pon with even the slightest amount of chip. Which isn't hard since the poor gal can't even wear some Boots, and is constantly wore down by hazards. There's also the fact that Dragon Types are everywhere. Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Roaring Moon, Dragapult, Dragonite all resist both of her Stabs, and threaten her with the immediate clap back. Meaning often times it feels like you have to run Play Rough or U-Turn to either clap back, or not be such a momentum drain. Though in doing so it just makes your fat match up worst by foregoing Encore, Taunt, or Knock Off. How does a supposedly broken Mon with pretty much a guaranteed 3MS have 4MSS? I love the girl to death, but she just ain't all that.

Roaring Moon on the other hand feels like Match Up Moth 2.0 despite having a grand total of one set with slight movepool variety. There are just some Team Structures that crumble to Roaring Moon, and effectively lose on preview. Others feel like they have a chance only for the Roaring Moon to whip it out, and Taunt the opponent. You really have to play well from both a team building perspective, and in game gameplay angle to deal with Roaring Moon effectively. The worst part of it all unlike Volc, which was a pretty feast or famine type of Pokemon, Roaring Moon can just be content with Knocking Off, and playing the support role. Does your counterplay really matter when the Pokemon in question just Knocks you Off, Taunts to prevent recovery/status, and switches? Much like Ogerpon-W, Roaring Moon, to me at least, feels the worst going into Offense since unboosted Roaring Moon isn't grabbing to many KOs, and has limited set-up opportunities. Though still 119 Speed is no joke, and as I said Roaring Moon is pretty content going 1 for 1 then slapping the switch in the face. I think this Mon definitely needs a suspect test at the very least.

Zamazenta is also stupid, cheesy broken. Why is this dog still here? Put It Down! Any ways those are my current feelings of the meta, and thanks for reading <3!
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
Been Playing with Roaring Moon and Ogerpon-W for a couple of days now to see if my opinion on them would change, and so far not really. Ogerpon-W is a fantastic Pokemon. Easily one of the best Wallbreakers in the Tier thanks to a variety of factors. Though I have often found that outside of threating slow, defensive Pokemon there isn't a whole lot going for it. 110 was fast 10 years ago let's be real. By current standards 110 speed sits in this awkward spot where yes it's faster than pretty much every Pokemon it wants to whack, but is still so much slower than a good amount of the other offensive threats of the tier. All of whom threaten to KO poor little Pon with even the slightest amount of chip. Which isn't hard since the poor gal can't even wear some Boots, and is constantly wore down by hazards. There's also the fact that Dragon Types are everywhere. Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Roaring Moon, Dragapult, Dragonite all resist both of her Stabs, and threaten her with the immediate clap back. Meaning often times it feels like you have to run Play Rough or U-Turn to either clap back, or not be such a momentum drain. Though in doing so it just makes your fat match up worst by foregoing Encore, Taunt, or Knock Off. How does a supposedly broken Mon with pretty much a guaranteed 3MS have 4MSS? I love the girl to death, but she just ain't all that.

Roaring Moon on the other hand feels like Match Up Moth 2.0 despite having a grand total of one set with slight movepool variety. There are just some Team Structures that crumble to Roaring Moon, and effectively lose on preview. Others feel like they have a chance only for the Roaring Moon to whip it out, and Taunt the opponent. You really have to play well from both a team building perspective, and in game gameplay angle to deal with Roaring Moon effectively. The worst part of it all unlike Volc, which was a pretty feast or famine type of Pokemon, Roaring Moon can just be content with Knocking Off, and playing the support role. Does your counterplay really matter when the Pokemon in question just Knocks you Off, Taunts to prevent recovery/status, and switches? Much like Ogerpon-W, Roaring Moon, to me at least, feels the worst going into Offense since unboosted Roaring Moon isn't grabbing to many KOs, and has limited set-up opportunities. Though still 119 Speed is no joke, and as I said Roaring Moon is pretty content going 1 for 1 then slapping the switch in the face. I think this Mon definitely needs a suspect test at the very least.

Zamazenta is also stupid, cheesy broken. Why is this dog still here? Put It Down! Any ways those are my current feelings of the meta, and thanks for reading <3!
Zamazenta would not even be in the first five things I would look at addressing in the tier. IDBP is strong and certainly can sweep unprepared teams, but at this point if you are not building your HO team with a check to IDBP Zama in mind you deserve to lose. Its hard to see IDBP as super broken when you can easily fit Gholdengo or Dragapult on your team which already puts IDBP on the backfoot. Even without those, IDBP isn't that hard to defensively or offensively handle. It also is a bit of a Tera hog with IDBP. This is ignoring its other sets that offer a ton of utility in the tier and are overall healthy presences. Boots Zama imo is one of the most useful forms of speed control in the tier and helps keep a lot of stuff in line. It is one of the best glue mons in the tier right now as well, being a blessing in builder to work with with how much it checks. Zama would be a terrible candidate for a suspect right now. Without Zamazenta, the tier would be in a worse spot overall.
 
Zamazenta would not even be in the first five things I would look at addressing in the tier. IDBP is strong and certainly can sweep unprepared teams, but at this point if you are not building your HO team with a check to IDBP Zama in mind you deserve to lose. Its hard to see IDBP as super broken when you can easily fit Gholdengo or Dragapult on your team which already puts IDBP on the backfoot. Even without those, IDBP isn't that hard to defensively or offensively handle. It also is a bit of a Tera hog with IDBP. This is ignoring its other sets that offer a ton of utility in the tier and are overall healthy presences. Boots Zama imo is one of the most useful forms of speed control in the tier and helps keep a lot of stuff in line. It is one of the best glue mons in the tier right now as well, being a blessing in builder to work with with how much it checks. Zama would be a terrible candidate for a suspect right now. Without Zamazenta, the tier would be in a worse spot overall.
If Zama is broken it's broken. Doesn't matter if it is soft checks/ checks threats. End of the day if it's unhealthy to the metagame, we have to rid of it. We will deal with the consequences of it from there. Just like how we had to get rid of Archuladon for the health of the metagame, but as a consequence, it made ogerpon a lot more busted. Again I'm still trying to form my opinion on Zama, but day by day I am starting to see how it could be a problem for the overall metagame. ID +bodypress sets being checked by pult and Gholdengo is sort of a lie. Pult cannot tank one crunch meaning it won't be around for the long game, and Gholdengo is forced to be defensive with recovery to check crunch. Other answers like Lando are forced to commonly trade against iron defense sets, and Gliscor becomes set up fodder to tera steel/poison to stop toxic. Zama always has a way of checking it counters in some way in some way or another. It can adapt to its checks. This does mean it loses out on something, however, which is why I'm not sure if I want it banned. If you run 4 attacks boots, you aren't a potent end-game breaker. If you are id body press, you may lose to intimidate + glowking core or ghost types if you pray for no crunch when switching. If you run no heavy slam, every fairy type in the world is saying fuck you and destroying your ass. Zama is def busted but can be answered on most teams. But does this diversity make in unhealthy? Does it variability make it suspect worthy? Idk, I'm still trying to form my thoughts on it and will continue to in the foreseeable future.
 
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Zamazenta would not even be in the first five things I would look at addressing in the tier. IDBP is strong and certainly can sweep unprepared teams, but at this point if you are not building your HO team with a check to IDBP Zama in mind you deserve to lose. Its hard to see IDBP as super broken when you can easily fit Gholdengo or Dragapult on your team which already puts IDBP on the backfoot. Even without those, IDBP isn't that hard to defensively or offensively handle. It also is a bit of a Tera hog with IDBP. This is ignoring its other sets that offer a ton of utility in the tier and are overall healthy presences. Boots Zama imo is one of the most useful forms of speed control in the tier and helps keep a lot of stuff in line. It is one of the best glue mons in the tier right now as well, being a blessing in builder to work with with how much it checks. Zama would be a terrible candidate for a suspect right now. Without Zamazenta, the tier would be in a worse spot overall.
Thanks for your opinion. I definitely agree with you in some regards, but I also think that this tier is held up by rubber bands and chewing gum. If this tier is only "stable" because we feel the need to keep one unhealthy mon or else we'd actually have to deal with the plague of Dark Types in the tier is indicative of an overarching problem. In the short term, yes, the Tier would be worst off without Zamazenta, but I'd argue it'd open room for long term growth of the Tier by actually addressing problem elements within it rather than saying "here is dog everything fine."

Though I'm now curious on what your Top Five Must Go Pokemon are. In fact anyone reading this comment on what your Top Five Most Go's are.
 
My Top Five Must Go Pokemon

#1 Roaring Moon: I’ve said my peace about this monstrosity. I do believe this should be the next suspect, but will prob not be. Oh well.

#2 Darkrai: This is probably my most controversial opinion, but it is one I firmly believe in. Outside of dedicated Special Sponges like Blissey and Clodsire; Darkrai tears through most of SV OU with its incredible SpAttack, Speed, and movepool. I think once people got over trying to force NP Life Orb, and actually experiment with what Darkrai can do is when it really started to show its color. We've seen Expert Belt 4 Attack Raise to dominance, but I'd also say support options like Taunt, Status, Knock Off, Trick are also decent options that can surprise a lot of people and catch them off guard. I think as the metagame develops it'll become more and more apparent just how strong this edgy guy is. Really the only thing holding Darkrai back right now are the people that use Darkrai. Guys, you don't have to use your Darkrai as a suicide lead. Stop leaving it in bad match ups just because you put a Focus Sash on it.

#3 Gliscor: Gliscor is unironically one of my favorite Pokemon of all time. It is easily in my Top 5 favorites. That being said, god do I hate this little troll. Gliscor alongside Alolmomola are the duo of just annoying you to death. Though unlike the fish that just kinda Wish passes ad infinitum Gliscor has surprising depth. Swords Dance, Toxic, Hazards, Knock, U-Turn are all great options for Gliscor to wield, and changes how one has to approach Gliscor. With it's naturally good defenses, typing, and broken ability Gliscor is hella annoying to actually take down, and is easy to slot in on most teams. It's hard to say if it's actually broken or just annoying. It Feels broken like 80% of the time, and you are pretty much forced to run some form of Gliscor answer when building teams. It's not like Lando-T in that regard where you can just mostly ignore it, and teams naturally are able to take it on. You really do have to force yourself to build with Gliscor in mind, and for that reason perhaps it is unhealthy for the tier. It do keep the Dog in check though!

#4 Zamazenta: Speaking of the Dog. You ever sit to realize just how conceptually broken of a combo Body Press + Iron Defense is? It is a double Bulk Up that is unaffected by abilities like Intimidate, and moves like Breaking Swipe. Tied to one of the best offensive typing in the game with an acceptable base power. Now put that on a Pokemon that gets Stab from it, has the ludicrous speed stat of 138, and it gets one time free Bulk Up just for switching in. It truly is amazing how one move was all this Doggo needed to dominate both Singles and Doubles. Just like all top tier/broken threats Zamazenta gets to pick and choose it's counters. Do you go with Crunch, Heavy Slam, Stone Edge, Roar, or Rest? Then do you pair it with Tera Steel, Fire, or Ghost? Oh on top of it all Zamazenta can just forgo the cheese, and smack people around with Stab CC's. There is a reason why it is almost mandatory to run a Tera Ghost mon on your Team. I think that fact alone is cause for concern. Let's be real, the Only reason we've kept this unhealthy play pattern machine around for so long is because of one Chess Piece looking guy that currently sits atop the OU throne.

#5 Kingambit: I am still mad this guy didn't get the boot last August/September. Kingambit is the face of SV OU. Following in the steps of all time greats like GSC Snorlax/Zapdos, Tyranitar, and Lando-T. Kingambit completely and totally dictates what can and can't be OU. The OU candidate in question either has to have game against Kingambit or fill some sort of niche. While some would say Pokemon like Kingambit are an inevitable part of competitive Pokemon I've seen too many ladder/tournament games where a Kingambit just reverse sweeps after being given very little to believe that it is a healthy part of the metagame. Surely someone else can take the King's throne. Does it really have to be Mr. Gambito?

Well those are my Top 5 Pokemon I think should get the boot. Comment if you'd like. Tell me whether you agree or disagree with my takes. The Forum has been dead past couple of days so I'm just trying to drum up engagement. So leave a Like, and Comment which Five Pokemon do you think should be Banned from SV OU!
 
Took a break, and Im so happy to see things I've complained about finally got the boot or are getting looked at again. Ive hated Zama for ages and am so glad people re-wised up on Volcarona.
I'm convinced a balanced gen 9 OU is like some sort of mythical amulet that only questionably exists. I hope we find it. Maybe our balanced OU is just named UU with like only half of the existing OU mons lmao.
 
Took a break, and Im so happy to see things I've complained about finally got the boot or are getting looked at again. Ive hated Zama for ages and am so glad people re-wised up on Volcarona.
I'm convinced a balanced gen 9 OU is like some sort of mythical amulet that only questionably exists. I hope we find it. Maybe our balanced OU is just named UU with like only half of the existing OU mons lmao.
Well I mean you guys chose to keep tera, so that might be the issue.

I will say though I do respect the efforts of the community to balance a meta around it even if I kinda feel like its impossible.

Warms my heart to see that
 
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i wanted to write about what i think should be one of the next two suspects now that volcarona has been banned for awhile, namely either Kyurem or Waterpon. I think both of these mons are largely similar in their negative impact and their effect on building: They both exert large pressure on anything remotely fat and largely need to be out-offensed; defensive counterplay to these mons is largely flawed and temporary at best. Balance often needs at least 1 and usually 2 slots dedicated to outspeeding/outoffensing these mons.

Kyurem has easier stopgaps, but is still very hard to wall. Freeze dry is one of the dumbest moves in the game on a mon that strong, and largely forces a freeze dry resist on teams that want to be defensively sound into it or else any set (but especially specs) has a field day into that team. The issue is that with the dissapearance of volc, it's gotten much harder to fit these. Freeze dry is only resisted by fire, steel and ice; ice is a dogshit defensive typing and weavile (the only real option) is switching into a specs ice beam once max because of how frail it is. Steel is obviously good, and options like kingambit and gholdengo are good switchins, but they need to be scouted for unless its earth power and they get chunked. Heatran is even worse, as not only does it suck struggle into the metagame right now, its 4x weak to earth power. Similarly, volc used to be a great freeze dry resist that wasn't weak to earth power, but since it's left, the only non-HO options for a fire type freeze dry resist are Skeledirge and Cinderace; these two mons aren't bad, but Cinderace (arguably the better one) is like Weavile in its frailty and still gets blown up by EP on a wrong predict. Skeledirge is more bulky imo isn't great right now and is similarly blown up on a wrong guess. And none of these mons are sufficient at stopping Kyurem. To be defensively sound into all kyurem sets, you largely need one of 3 defensive structures: Gking + freeze-dry resist, spdef garg + freeze dry resist, and mola + sturdy freeze-dry resist. SpDef Clef is an option but tbh making your knock absorber unable to take physical hits is really bad. This forces really awkward scenarios where, without these structures your defensive structure can be just blown up by Kyurem, and even with them it can still get broken through. Non-gking structures often rely on protect to scout out specs, but if it comes in on something without protect then Kyurem has the opportunity to throw out extremely strong stab attacks or EP. Thats forgetting that Kyurem can tera to either get stab EP or even stronger ice stab. Let's say you have a Gking team with Weavile as your freeze dry resist, and as you switch in your Gking to specs Kyurem, it tera ices and does (51.2 - 60.4%); now your only option is to switch in is Weavile, which takes even more damage from that specs ice beam (59.7 - 70.4%) or just sacking something. And while yes, Weavile is a frail freeze dry resist, there are maybe 4 viable bulky freeze dry resists, and 2 of them (Heatran and Skeledirge) are not that good or splashable. And obviously, specs kyurem has counterplay; its very hazard weak and can be outsped; however, specs kyurem is always paired with removal, so there's no guarantee rocks stays up when it comes in, it can get access to the snow defense boost to make it harder to take down, but also its speed tier largely constrains building; it forces fat teams to have at least a couple mons that can revenge it, otherwise it iwll shred through those teams even more. As well, it's not like its that slow; it outspeeds key threats like Great Tusk, Landorus and Gholdengo, so its able to force switches on them. That's forgetting the freeze chance it has on its moves; often Kyurem just spams its ice attacks, and the freeze chance will proc eventually and can create a much more favourable position for it. And while it can be awkward defensively, its offensively too threatening in my opinion and doesnt deserve a place in the tier.

Waterpon is in some ways worse; while kyurem at least can be held off defensively, Waterpon is faster (so its harder to outoffense) and ironically HARDER to stop defensively despite its seemingly worse offensive coverage. Switchins to Waterpon are really limited to Pult (kinda/not really), dragonite (kinda/not really), grasspon (kinda), rillaboom (kinda), serp (garbage), meow (kinda), sinistcha (kinda), amoonguss (very hard to fit), kingambit (not really) and tera grass mons (usually not good). Notice how I say 'kinda' because none of these can consistently withstand Waterpon; it either has the coverage to cripple or break through it, or they're just too frail to withstand more then one or two hits. Sinistcha is theoretically the best of these; it resists both its stabs and gets access to strength sap to restore its health, and I would argue Sinistcha actually has a lot of use outside this match up (ironically I think waterpon makes sini worse). However, if Waterpon has encore, it can punish strength sap and start setting up. If it has knock off, it just wins, straight up. Even without these tools, Sini can get mostly worn down by Waterpon anyways, and doesnt want to click strength sap in case Waterpon is an encore variant, and if its a knock variant instead you're even more screwed. PR variants it does well into. Its often touted as a check, but to be honest Sini is best as a spinblocker and wincon, and Waterpon can wear it down to the point where it can no longer spin block effectively. All the other grasses bar amoonguss are often too frail to take more then a couple hits, or get crippled by knock off. Rillaboom can theoretically eat more hits, but it activates grassy terrain and so can ironically power up Waterpon's power whips, and after an SD waterpon has a 50% chance to OHKO rillaboom. Pult similarly can switch in once but is not that bulky and can get screwed by potential knock off or play rough. Dragonite is very sturdy but ironically only really fits on offense anyways and never runs roost, so its often also liable to getting punished by knock off or play rough. Kingambit also gets hard punished if its an encore set, as well as getting chunked by Waterpon's Ivy Cudgel in general. While these require Waterpon to pick and choose what it cripples, notice that knock is extremely consistent at stopping any defensive counterplay, and that you don't know Waterpon's last move until it uses it on you, at which point it can likely take a kill if you've guessed wrong. As well, Ivy Cudgel is a notoriously insane move that has a high crit chance, so there's a fairly high chance where it clicks it after a swords dance and does way more damage then it should; as well, like with Kyurem, its speed tier is high enough that it forces offensive counterplay; nothing can wall it and it threatens out anything defensive, so it either forces frail offensive mons to eat a hit or just gets a kill on a fat mon. This thing has no defensive counterplay, to the point where 658Greninja made a guide on Rotom-mow, a mon that has been OU viable maybe once, because of its ability to resist Waterpon's stabs. This is also forgetting that it can tera to switch up its weaknesses and power up its already insane Ivy Cudgel.

As well, i've commonly heard from people that they KNOW waterpon is broken and that its bullshit, but that they don't want it to go because it stops 'degenerate strategies', and I feel sometimes like this community doesn't learn from its own mistakes or has amnesia. This fearmongering often happens literally ANY TIME a dominant mon is suspected, where someone admits its bullshit but doesnt want it gone because the tier might be gone without it, and honestly its repeatedly been shown to be a shitty argument. If something is broken without Waterpon (or Volcarona, or Archaludon, or Chien-Pao, or Gliscor...) then it will get looked into after. If you have to admit that a mon is broken before saying that its necessary, you've admitted that the right course is that it should be banned. It's a bad argument and if people REALLY think Waterpon isn't broken, i would much rather here them argue that on its own merits then admit its brokenness but just not want change in the tier because its scary.
 
As well, i've commonly heard from people that they KNOW waterpon is broken and that its bullshit, but that they don't want it to go because it stops 'degenerate strategies',
I fucking hate this shit honestly. If a single mon is the only thing preventing others from running rampant then simply remove it so we can remove the other mons after it in succession. I rather the whole rogues gallery be expedited out of the tier than be forced to live with "well, why improve things when we can wallow in the sewers covered in our own filth?"

Bewildering thought process. The fact every suspect has more one person going "This mon is NOT the problem." then remove it so we can get to the 'real' problem after? It's like watching people step on rakes over and over again.
 
i wanted to write about what i think should be one of the next two suspects now that volcarona has been banned for awhile, namely either Kyurem or Waterpon. I think both of these mons are largely similar in their negative impact and their effect on building: They both exert large pressure on anything remotely fat and largely need to be out-offensed; defensive counterplay to these mons is largely flawed and temporary at best. Balance often needs at least 1 and usually 2 slots dedicated to outspeeding/outoffensing these mons.

Kyurem has easier stopgaps, but is still very hard to wall. Freeze dry is one of the dumbest moves in the game on a mon that strong, and largely forces a freeze dry resist on teams that want to be defensively sound into it or else any set (but especially specs) has a field day into that team. The issue is that with the dissapearance of volc, it's gotten much harder to fit these. Freeze dry is only resisted by fire, steel and ice; ice is a dogshit defensive typing and weavile (the only real option) is switching into a specs ice beam once max because of how frail it is. Steel is obviously good, and options like kingambit and gholdengo are good switchins, but they need to be scouted for unless its earth power and they get chunked. Heatran is even worse, as not only does it suck struggle into the metagame right now, its 4x weak to earth power. Similarly, volc used to be a great freeze dry resist that wasn't weak to earth power, but since it's left, the only non-HO options for a fire type freeze dry resist are Skeledirge and Cinderace; these two mons aren't bad, but Cinderace (arguably the better one) is like Weavile in its frailty and still gets blown up by EP on a wrong predict. Skeledirge is more bulky imo isn't great right now and is similarly blown up on a wrong guess. And none of these mons are sufficient at stopping Kyurem. To be defensively sound into all kyurem sets, you largely need one of 3 defensive structures: Gking + freeze-dry resist, spdef garg + freeze dry resist, and mola + sturdy freeze-dry resist. SpDef Clef is an option but tbh making your knock absorber unable to take physical hits is really bad. This forces really awkward scenarios where, without these structures your defensive structure can be just blown up by Kyurem, and even with them it can still get broken through. Non-gking structures often rely on protect to scout out specs, but if it comes in on something without protect then Kyurem has the opportunity to throw out extremely strong stab attacks or EP. Thats forgetting that Kyurem can tera to either get stab EP or even stronger ice stab. Let's say you have a Gking team with Weavile as your freeze dry resist, and as you switch in your Gking to specs Kyurem, it tera ices and does (51.2 - 60.4%); now your only option is to switch in is Weavile, which takes even more damage from that specs ice beam (59.7 - 70.4%) or just sacking something. And while yes, Weavile is a frail freeze dry resist, there are maybe 4 viable bulky freeze dry resists, and 2 of them (Heatran and Skeledirge) are not that good or splashable. And obviously, specs kyurem has counterplay; its very hazard weak and can be outsped; however, specs kyurem is always paired with removal, so there's no guarantee rocks stays up when it comes in, it can get access to the snow defense boost to make it harder to take down, but also its speed tier largely constrains building; it forces fat teams to have at least a couple mons that can revenge it, otherwise it iwll shred through those teams even more. As well, it's not like its that slow; it outspeeds key threats like Great Tusk, Landorus and Gholdengo, so its able to force switches on them. That's forgetting the freeze chance it has on its moves; often Kyurem just spams its ice attacks, and the freeze chance will proc eventually and can create a much more favourable position for it. And while it can be awkward defensively, its offensively too threatening in my opinion and doesnt deserve a place in the tier.

Waterpon is in some ways worse; while kyurem at least can be held off defensively, Waterpon is faster (so its harder to outoffense) and ironically HARDER to stop defensively despite its seemingly worse offensive coverage. Switchins to Waterpon are really limited to Pult (kinda/not really), dragonite (kinda/not really), grasspon (kinda), rillaboom (kinda), serp (garbage), meow (kinda), sinistcha (kinda), amoonguss (very hard to fit), kingambit (not really) and tera grass mons (usually not good). Notice how I say 'kinda' because none of these can consistently withstand Waterpon; it either has the coverage to cripple or break through it, or they're just too frail to withstand more then one or two hits. Sinistcha is theoretically the best of these; it resists both its stabs and gets access to strength sap to restore its health, and I would argue Sinistcha actually has a lot of use outside this match up (ironically I think waterpon makes sini worse). However, if Waterpon has encore, it can punish strength sap and start setting up. If it has knock off, it just wins, straight up. Even without these tools, Sini can get mostly worn down by Waterpon anyways, and doesnt want to click strength sap in case Waterpon is an encore variant, and if its a knock variant instead you're even more screwed. PR variants it does well into. Its often touted as a check, but to be honest Sini is best as a spinblocker and wincon, and Waterpon can wear it down to the point where it can no longer spin block effectively. All the other grasses bar amoonguss are often too frail to take more then a couple hits, or get crippled by knock off. Rillaboom can theoretically eat more hits, but it activates grassy terrain and so can ironically power up Waterpon's power whips, and after an SD waterpon has a 50% chance to OHKO rillaboom. Pult similarly can switch in once but is not that bulky and can get screwed by potential knock off or play rough. Dragonite is very sturdy but ironically only really fits on offense anyways and never runs roost, so its often also liable to getting punished by knock off or play rough. Kingambit also gets hard punished if its an encore set, as well as getting chunked by Waterpon's Ivy Cudgel in general. While these require Waterpon to pick and choose what it cripples, notice that knock is extremely consistent at stopping any defensive counterplay, and that you don't know Waterpon's last move until it uses it on you, at which point it can likely take a kill if you've guessed wrong. As well, Ivy Cudgel is a notoriously insane move that has a high crit chance, so there's a fairly high chance where it clicks it after a swords dance and does way more damage then it should; as well, like with Kyurem, its speed tier is high enough that it forces offensive counterplay; nothing can wall it and it threatens out anything defensive, so it either forces frail offensive mons to eat a hit or just gets a kill on a fat mon. This thing has no defensive counterplay, to the point where 658Greninja made a guide on Rotom-mow, a mon that has been OU viable maybe once, because of its ability to resist Waterpon's stabs. This is also forgetting that it can tera to switch up its weaknesses and power up its already insane Ivy Cudgel.

As well, i've commonly heard from people that they KNOW waterpon is broken and that its bullshit, but that they don't want it to go because it stops 'degenerate strategies', and I feel sometimes like this community doesn't learn from its own mistakes or has amnesia. This fearmongering often happens literally ANY TIME a dominant mon is suspected, where someone admits its bullshit but doesnt want it gone because the tier might be gone without it, and honestly its repeatedly been shown to be a shitty argument. If something is broken without Waterpon (or Volcarona, or Archaludon, or Chien-Pao, or Gliscor...) then it will get looked into after. If you have to admit that a mon is broken before saying that its necessary, you've admitted that the right course is that it should be banned. It's a bad argument and if people REALLY think Waterpon isn't broken, i would much rather here them argue that on its own merits then admit its brokenness but just not want change in the tier because its scary.
Yeah they are like at the top of my list.

Waterpon and Kyurem gotta go

Idk what the other three are, Ghold I think would be like 4 not because it's not broken but because it is inherently unhealthy and it going would allow spinners to actually work

3 Is like moon, it's an annoying matchup fish but like Ghold not urgent
 
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Yeah they are like at the top of my list.

Waterpon and Kyurem gotta go

Idk what the other three are, Ghold I think would be like 4 not because it's broken but because it is inherently unhealthy and it going would allow spinners to actually work since

3 Is like moon, it's an annoying matchup fish but like Ghold not urgent
I agree. I want the scum of the earth roaring moon to be suspected. Kyurem is def another. I actually don't hate ogerpon as much as other people. It is not healthy for the metagame at all, but my hatred for roaring moon is even more. I mainly just find myself using choiced pokemon to destroy ogerpon hopes and dreams like Specs Val.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast (95 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 304-358 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Been Playing with Roaring Moon and Ogerpon-W for a couple of days now to see if my opinion on them would change, and so far not really. Ogerpon-W is a fantastic Pokemon. Easily one of the best Wallbreakers in the Tier thanks to a variety of factors. Though I have often found that outside of threating slow, defensive Pokemon there isn't a whole lot going for it. 110 was fast 10 years ago let's be real. By current standards 110 speed sits in this awkward spot where yes it's faster than pretty much every Pokemon it wants to whack, but is still so much slower than a good amount of the other offensive threats of the tier. All of whom threaten to KO poor little Pon with even the slightest amount of chip. Which isn't hard since the poor gal can't even wear some Boots, and is constantly wore down by hazards. There's also the fact that Dragon Types are everywhere. Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Roaring Moon, Dragapult, Dragonite all resist both of her Stabs, and threaten her with the immediate clap back. Meaning often times it feels like you have to run Play Rough or U-Turn to either clap back, or not be such a momentum drain. Though in doing so it just makes your fat match up worst by foregoing Encore, Taunt, or Knock Off. How does a supposedly broken Mon with pretty much a guaranteed 3MS have 4MSS? I love the girl to death, but she just ain't all that.

Roaring Moon on the other hand feels like Match Up Moth 2.0 despite having a grand total of one set with slight movepool variety. There are just some Team Structures that crumble to Roaring Moon, and effectively lose on preview. Others feel like they have a chance only for the Roaring Moon to whip it out, and Taunt the opponent. You really have to play well from both a team building perspective, and in game gameplay angle to deal with Roaring Moon effectively. The worst part of it all unlike Volc, which was a pretty feast or famine type of Pokemon, Roaring Moon can just be content with Knocking Off, and playing the support role. Does your counterplay really matter when the Pokemon in question just Knocks you Off, Taunts to prevent recovery/status, and switches? Much like Ogerpon-W, Roaring Moon, to me at least, feels the worst going into Offense since unboosted Roaring Moon isn't grabbing to many KOs, and has limited set-up opportunities. Though still 119 Speed is no joke, and as I said Roaring Moon is pretty content going 1 for 1 then slapping the switch in the face. I think this Mon definitely needs a suspect test at the very least.

Zamazenta is also stupid, cheesy broken. Why is this dog still here? Put It Down! Any ways those are my current feelings of the meta, and thanks for reading <3!
Hi what set were u using on the ladder w ogerpon?This is the ladder terrorist set

Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Trailblaze
- Play Rough

Still sucks cos valiant with booster can revenge kill u but its the better set in general for the ladder to stomp other hos which is probably the most common style
 
and if people REALLY think Waterpon isn't broken, i would much rather here them argue that on its own merits then admit its brokenness but just not want change in the tier because its scary.
I personally find Ogerpon-Wellspring hella oppressive, but there are plenty of players (mainly HO players) who subscribe to the philosophy that if something is easily outoffensed that it isn't broken, so it's less so the case that people know she's broken but keep it in OU anyway to prevent Alomomola from getting more popular as that's a small minority of people. A lot of top players genuinely believe that Wellspring isn't broken, and it'd be a waste to suspect her when the result would clearly end in a DNB verdict.

Kyurem is probably a better suspect target since it came close to a ban the first time around and Archaludon and Volcarona are no longer in the tier, so that's a couple of soft checks to it gone. A Kyurem suspect test would be more of a toss-up compared to an Ogerpon-Wellspring suspect, making Kyurem a better recipient of potential tiering action.
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
If Zama is broken it's broken. Doesn't matter if it is soft checks/ checks threats. End of the day if it's unhealthy to the metagame, we have to rid of it. We will deal with the consequences of it from there. Just like how we had to get rid of Archuladon for the health of the metagame, but as a consequence, it made ogerpon a lot more busted. Again I'm still trying to form my opinion on Zama, but day by day I am starting to see how it could be a problem for the overall metagame. ID +bodypress sets being checked by pult and Gholdengo is sort of a lie. Pult cannot tank one crunch meaning it won't be around for the long game, and Gholdengo is forced to be defensive with recovery to check crunch. Other answers like Lando are forced to commonly trade against iron defense sets, and Gliscor becomes set up fodder to tera steel/poison to stop toxic. Zama always has a way of checking it counters in some way in some way or another. It can adapt to its checks. This does mean it loses out on something, however, which is why I'm not sure if I want it banned. If you run 4 attacks boots, you aren't a potent end-game breaker. If you are id body press, you may lose to intimidate + glowking core or ghost types if you pray for no crunch when switching. If you run no heavy slam, every fairy type in the world is saying fuck you and destroying your ass. Zama is def busted but can be answered on most teams. But does this diversity make in unhealthy? Does it variability make it suspect worthy? Idk, I'm still trying to form my thoughts on it and will continue to in the foreseeable future.
The issue is Zamazenta isn't really that broken right now. I think the level at which something is banworthy is pretty high this generation. This is just a high power level meta. Zamazenta is obviously a strong mon, its in contention for a top five mon in the meta (this does not mean the top five mons are the most banworthy). But this meta is at a very high power level. While Zama can weasel its way past some of its checks, it still has the issue of losing to common things one way or another. IDBP can sneak its way past some counters with the right tera, sure, but so can a lot of the iter. IDBP also has pretty bad 4MSS. You want to run all of Crunch, Roar, and Heavy Slam to help ease your way through your checks, but you cant afford all three. This also ignores how Bulkier teams tend to do better on average into IDBP.

TBH, I think it is way too soon to even discuss suspects anyway. Volc got banned very recently and the meta is going to take time to settle. If you want to look at candidates, I doubt Zamazenta would hit 60% right now at all, nor would it score exceptionally high if we did do another metagame survey. Most people have their eyes on Waterpon, Roaring Moon, and Kyurem. I think after what happened with Kyurem and Gouging Fire, the main focus should be on finding test subjects that have more of a consensus behind them. If Zamazenta was the next test, it likely would not be banned and would stick around in the metagame for the forseeable future, potentially for the rest of the gen. If you do dislike Zamazenta, that's fine, but public opinion does not seem to be behind banning it. Many folks want Ogerpon Wellspring to go, but many said they do not want to test it until they know it can get above a 60%. The worst case scenario would be a test like Kyurem's where you get a close vote for it to stay.
 
The issue is Zamazenta isn't really that broken right now. I think the level at which something is banworthy is pretty high this generation. This is just a high power level meta. Zamazenta is obviously a strong mon, its in contention for a top five mon in the meta (this does not mean the top five mons are the most banworthy). But this meta is at a very high power level. While Zama can weasel its way past some of its checks, it still has the issue of losing to common things one way or another. IDBP can sneak its way past some counters with the right tera, sure, but so can a lot of the iter. IDBP also has pretty bad 4MSS. You want to run all of Crunch, Roar, and Heavy Slam to help ease your way through your checks, but you cant afford all three. This also ignores how Bulkier teams tend to do better on average into IDBP.

TBH, I think it is way too soon to even discuss suspects anyway. Volc got banned very recently and the meta is going to take time to settle. If you want to look at candidates, I doubt Zamazenta would hit 60% right now at all, nor would it score exceptionally high if we did do another metagame survey. Most people have their eyes on Waterpon, Roaring Moon, and Kyurem. I think after what happened with Kyurem and Gouging Fire, the main focus should be on finding test subjects that have more of a consensus behind them. If Zamazenta was the next test, it likely would not be banned and would stick around in the metagame for the forseeable future, potentially for the rest of the gen. If you do dislike Zamazenta, that's fine, but public opinion does not seem to be behind banning it. Many folks want Ogerpon Wellspring to go, but many said they do not want to test it until they know it can get above a 60%. The worst case scenario would be a test like Kyurem's where you get a close vote for it to stay.
The volc ban was a bit over two weeks ago, def not enough time to have another suspect test (though I do wish it was earlier). I'd say give it a week, release a survey and go from there. Of course, the council should do as it pleases, I am in no way qualified enough to tell them to do their job (nor should I even if I was qualified since that just kind off a ass move and they have been doing a good job)
My thoughts on Zama are basically the same as yours, it needs to have the right set to be as people claim "broken" and even some stuff like gliscor are still good against multiple sets. It isn't like volc where a mon can check one set but falters to all the others. Offense is by far it's best matchup, but even then it can have ways against it (valiant helps and pult can stop it with status, which infiltrator can also help with if it is sub). Any bulky team usually has a bulky resists to it that threatens it and stall just has dozo+gliscor. Even on a team of mine where roar Zama is threatening, I still have good outs against it, it's just a mon you have to keep in mind when teambuilding.
 
I’m just gonna start off by saying I’m very disappointed that no one gave me 5 mons they think should go. We’ll look past it though.

Kyurem: Honestly forgot about this guy. Probably because I was trying out a Kyurem team that tanked my ranking. Yeah, I can see why people want it to go. The fact people are digging for checks using stuff like AV Iron Crown, or Scizor is a little telling. I wouldn’t cry if it went, but I also don’t think it is top prio. It still has its glaring weaknesses, and I’m not totally convinced those should be pushed aside just because of its sheer damage output. Though like I said if people want it gone, and it goes it is what it is.


Hi what set were u using on the ladder w ogerpon?This is the ladder terrorist set

Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Trailblaze
- Play Rough

Still sucks cos valiant with booster can revenge kill u but its the better set in general for the ladder to stomp other hos which is probably the most common style
I have never seen this set before in my life. I associate Trailblaze with Pokeaim click bait, but I can see how this can clap HO. Though once again you’re sacrificing certain match ups just to get the edge on HO. If we can criticize other Pokemon for not having a one all answer move set then why not Ogerpon.


The issue is Zamazenta isn't really that broken right now. I think the level at which something is banworthy is pretty high this generation. This is just a high power level meta. Zamazenta is obviously a strong mon, its in contention for a top five mon in the meta (this does not mean the top five mons are the most banworthy). But this meta is at a very high power level. While Zama can weasel its way past some of its checks, it still has the issue of losing to common things one way or another. IDBP can sneak its way past some counters with the right tera, sure, but so can a lot of the iter. IDBP also has pretty bad 4MSS. You want to run all of Crunch, Roar, and Heavy Slam to help ease your way through your checks, but you cant afford all three. This also ignores how Bulkier teams tend to do better on average into IDBP.

TBH, I think it is way too soon to even discuss suspects anyway. Volc got banned very recently and the meta is going to take time to settle. If you want to look at candidates, I doubt Zamazenta would hit 60% right now at all, nor would it score exceptionally high if we did do another metagame survey. Most people have their eyes on Waterpon, Roaring Moon, and Kyurem. I think after what happened with Kyurem and Gouging Fire, the main focus should be on finding test subjects that have more of a consensus behind them. If Zamazenta was the next test, it likely would not be banned and would stick around in the metagame for the forseeable future, potentially for the rest of the gen. If you do dislike Zamazenta, that's fine, but public opinion does not seem to be behind banning it. Many folks want Ogerpon Wellspring to go, but many said they do not want to test it until they know it can get above a 60%. The worst case scenario would be a test like Kyurem's where you get a close vote for it to stay.
I mean I more or less agree with what you’re saying. I did put Zama as #4. I like Zama, it’s fun to use. I just also think it’s not all to healthy to keep around for the sake of checking Gambit. That’s neither here or there though. Zama isn’t the next suspect, and it’s unlikely to even be the suspect after. I was just expressing how I feel :)
 
I'm enjoying the meta a lot more at the moment. I think we still need to wait a bit before the effects of the Volc ban fully ripple out, but for now there's only really two mons on my radar.

Roaring Moon: I think this thread has discussed it a lot recently, but its ability to force progress versus every team comp really cannot be understated. With a lot of other ~broken mons, there's always the opportunity cost of choosing a set. You generally know the set Moon is running and it still can feel suffocating to play against. In terms of usage rates, looking at 1825+ in April it's sitting pretty high up despite being limited only to HO teams. We can see a rise in usage of stuff like Barb Clef (Which is still a great mon, but I don't think it would be used quite so much if it didn't have such a good matchup into Moon) which indicates people are preparing more and more for facing it. Definitely at the top of my radar ATM.

Ogerpon-Wellspring: I think people have already raised the main point I was going to make (the encore sets destroy bulk and trailblaze/play rough sets can farm HO, but you aren't able to run everything, and each set has its own checks and counters), but that doesn't really stop this thing from tearing teams apart, and its not as if it's just a dead slot when you don't match up into the correct set.

To fill out my top 5, they're probably Zama, Kyurem, and Darkrai, though I'd oppose any action against any of them right now. As a stall enjoyer, I also wouldn't mind a ban of Primarina and evil Pult but I recognize that's not unbiased. We've seen some pretty interesting stuff at high ladder and the metagame continues to evolve, so just give it some time before making a next move.
 
It has been truly satisfying to watch darkrai in OU. i said before it dropped it was too overbearing for OU and i got shot down, people calling it midrai and some jokers even called it UU material. Turns out it WAS broken until the sleep ban, and even now i see it creeping back up in viability with nasty plot + 3a or nasty plot sub. its not a the top of the metagame but id say its in top 5. there isnt even an opportunity cost for dark types as darkspam has been viable all of gen9.
 

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