Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Thank you for pointing this out. Definitely something I missed in my counterpoint section. I'm going to respond to this one since it is much better written and doesn't contain points I already addressed in my original post (i.e. Bolt being "perfectly balanced and easy to stop").

Not every Booster Energy user has to be top-tier with booster, just like how not every mon with Hypnosis was top-tier. The ones that ARE top-tier, though, are really oppressive, in my opinion, but don't have to be banned on their own. Iron Valiant and the rare Iron Boulder break speed tiers while GFire/Rmoon/Bolt just bust through teams. Their checks don't even have to be fully removed. To address the point made about Iron Bundle/Flutter Mane being broken without booster, that doesn't change the fact that they would be broken WITH booster, too.

The argument I'm making is with regards to mons and booster energy AS THEY ARE IN OU. Mons that are Ubers without Booster would still be Ubers. Mons that are lower tier with booster will still be lower tier after a potential ban. The only mons a booster ban would affect are borderline-broken mons that people have issue with. Does that make sense? I'm happy to explain more.
To preface the following: I don't share the assessment in practice, but the idea of the argument certainly makes some amount of sense.

The thing that I want to distinguish from the Hypnosis comparison is that Sleep was a complicated issue in OU tiering that was moreso an issue for being uncompetitive via random/unreliable scenarios than an overly constricting performance. Roaring Moon for example will consistently have access to a particular level of power thanks to its stats, Booster/Moves and Tera choices, mostly affected by how valuable those traits are into an opposing team's answers: if you fight the same team multiple times against similarly skilled players, Moon would probably exert a similar amount of influence across those games. Sleep contrasts this because even ignoring the 60% accuracy of Hypnosis, Sleep's duration is semi-random and thus can't be reliably played around (i.e. "I know I have to burn 2 turns" or "I absorbed Sleep with a Rest Talker, but if I wake up in 2 turns instead of 4 Sleep Talk wastes my action").

Since Booster Energy is a consistent mechanic and benefit, it's a much taller ask to prove that Booster Energy is uncompetitive/unhealthy in its own right for the Metagame and thus what should be removed, rather than Pokemon for whom it is part of a potentially overbearing collection of attributes (EX: Roaring Moon's already high stats benefit more from the free boost in tandem with Acrobatics being very suited to a consumable). A Booster Energy suspect might reduce threat saturation faster/in fewer suspect action, but it doesn't feel consistent with our tiering criteria to hit BE rather than individual abusers, even if the latter takes more time to do by-the-book. Bans of this nature even this gen have required proving the majority/entire use pool for the element were unbalanced, albeit with smaller arrays (Last Respects, Shed Tail, and previous Gens with Arena Trap demonstrably created unhealthy interactions with all their users, whereas Rage Fist or Dire Claw were merely part of what made a user a problem).

If GFire and RMoon are busted with Booster energy, but Brute Bonnet, Slither Wing, Scream Tail, Sandy Shocks, Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Hands, Jugulis, etc. are not having adverse effects on the OU tier, then what is the argument for hitting Booster Energy and impacting the viability of several Pokemon instead of hitting those two examples? This is also under the premise that these mons should be tackled when GFire already went no-ban by a sizable margin with BE as an option (which suggests the playerbase does not consider it banworthy with said option despite my separating it as an example). To counter argue the brief mention of them, Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle do not enter into the conversation at all: whether or not Booster Energy breaks them MORE, they are broken without it, and thus completely irrelevant to the matter of how OU tiers an item vs several of that item's users.

Whether or not things like IVal are Borderline broken or actually so, these arguments don't prove that the Item Booster Energy is the root cause of unhealthy interactions such that removing it has the least fallout on skill-based battling and teambuilding.
 
Might be a controversial opinion, but even if Zamazenta is banned, I don't think Kingambit would be too much of an issue. There is a lot of anti-Gambit technology out there, with easy lures like Focus Blast Gholdengo, Brick Break Roaring Moon, Low Kick Weavile / Ogerpon-TM / Meowscarada, etc. on top of multiple different answers ranging from Lando-T, Great Tusk, Corviknight, Skarmory, and a multitude of lesser used Fighting- or Dark-types like Keldeo, Chestnaught, Hydreigon, Cobalion, etc (many of which would become more viable without Zamazenta largely outclassing them). Most of these aren't hard counters persay due to Tera, but while Gambit is one of the strongest Tera users, clicking Tera with it also isn't completely riskless in most cases (the biggest exception being against Stall, where Tera Dark can be a bit riskless against certain Dondozo variants after the opponent expends their defensive Tera to deal with another threat). On occasions, there will be other users of Tera that will be better (such as Zamazenta or Gouging Fire) or Gambit's base typing will be needed to help deal with certain threats better (i.e. certain Gholdengo variants, Weavile, etc.).

I'm not advocating for a Zamazenta suspect, but I think Kingambit will be managable in a Zama-less meta.
Agree with this post. Gambit, right now, has it pretty hard. This is coming from somebody that used to hate this mons presence. It is still a strong win-condition and a little oppressive on the builder but there is more freedom about how to deal with this mon when it was earlier.

To add to your points, his hard checks like Val and BU tusk still exist, encore is everywhere in high ladder nowadays with viable mons like Prim, Oger, Dragonite, Samu fitting on many team structures and even weather teams that used to hate Gambit have mons like the Nintales, giving their Sun and Screen teams much needed insurance against him so last mon Gambit can't cheese them. There is also some more niche options like Tinkaton as an encore user or Iron Hands as a hard stop. Bulky and strong dragons like the proto dragon trio have so much brute force that gambit will lose the 1vs1 and then there is Dozo that can sit on him if the Gambit isn't tera dark, black glasses 3 fallen and even then you can still wall him with tera fighting.

Not to mention, mons that Gambit used to prey on like Dragapult or even Slowking carry status to cripple him and make his live harder. Sure you can tech in lum but if you don't encounter these mons,your item slot is basically wasted. Also substitute is another way to let sucker punch wars go in your favor. Mons like Moth, Kyurem, Gouge can make good use of it even without Gambit since it blocks status afterall. With Zama banned it is not gonna change, Gambit will still have a hard time, it will just have one less roadblock to worry about.

About Zama, I do think this mon is problematic and puts a huge strain on team building. There is a lot I wanna say about this mon but I think I will do that maybe at a later time since I don't wanna type too much right now.
 

Nickos

Quack
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The thing I really dislike about Zamazenta is how it warps people's perception of what's actually fine in a meta, in any other generation Zama as it currently is would be a quickban, however, we underestimated the dog for far too long and grew way too comfortable with its presence in the tier, I mean, what's not to like of a mon that's not only faster than 95% of the meta, but also ridiculously bulky and can even setup and sweep teams while abusing said bulk and thus very easy to fit in a team and call it a day?

If IronPress sets didn't exist, I would have way less of an issue with Zama, but the fact that this set has survived for so long and is constantly making adaptations to the supposed "consistent answers" it has is just plainly annoying, and said answers almost always just happen to be stuff that can just fall completely flat if Zama happens to have the right coverage move or Tera type for them. Remember when people claimed Fairies actually did anything to Zama? Too bad no Fairy is both faster than it (aside from Iron Valiant a single time per match and I don't even think it kills Zama at full) and can also take a Heavy Slam to their faces, Gholdengo was also a very good answer until you notice that you MUST run the Defensive variant or else Crunch will eventually overwhelm you with a random crit or Defense drop.

As I say, the main problem with the doggo is that people rely on this broken stat stick to answer many of the otherwise also broken mons that plague this meta, kinda like how people wanna tell you that "Dondozo beats it so it's probably fine", as if Dozo beating a physical isn't the equivalent of saying "Blissey beats that Special Attacker, it's fine".
 
As I say, the main problem with the doggo is that people rely on this broken stat stick to answer many of the otherwise also broken mons that plague this meta, kinda like how people wanna tell you that "Dondozo beats it so it's probably fine", as if Dozo beating a physical isn't the equivalent of saying "Blissey beats that Special Attacker, it's fine".
You don't get it, we NEED to keep the 78 physical attackers that press one boost and run over teams. This dog is perfectly fine and great for the meta to keep the great ecosystem involved! Stats don't matter, Darkrai* is bad! So is Zama actually. Gambit is bad now also, so is Dragapult, uh Dondozo is too. Stats are just a coverup for the fact the pokemon aren't good. The higher the number the worse it gets. This holds especially true when they're minmaxed to be optimal! :mehowth:

*Darkrai has become under contention and we might be looking back at the "midrai allegations" for scorn
 
There just won't be action on Booster Energy given that Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle were broken without Booster Energy, and the only even remotely contentious mons in OU with Booster Energy are Roaring moon and to a lesser extent, Gouging Fire.

Raging Bolt is a perfectly balanced mon even with Booster Energy, and there are so many Paradox mons that have easy-to-stop Booster Energy sets that it's a non-issue. The bar for action on Booster Energy has not been met and won't anytime soon.
Okay I do agree we shouldn't ban booster, but I kinda think Bolt (who doesn't even run booster that much since it would much rather have boots or lefties to help it set up, and I would argue it doesn't need booster to be problematic) and Roaring Moon who is contentious at the moment are maybe broken. Moon is the only pokemon pokemon broken due to booster so there is no point in banning it.
 
First off, thank you for the well-written response and points. These last couple of posts have been a breath of fresh air for me considering I usually hate posting on the forums. Hypnosis and booster are fundamentally different due to the rng nature of sleep; I see that now. I was using it more of a counter to the "if some mons are bad with it, it isn't broken" argument, which I still think doesn't hold much weight.

Secondly, I think the points you made are great at explaining how tiering policy might/might not apply in this case. You're correct in assessing my intention to reduce threat saturation in the tier without outright banning the mons. Though they may be tough to build around now, borderline-broken mons without booster could definitely still have a much healthier role to play in the meta (not trying to speculate too hard here, though). In my opinion, it's a quick and easy solution to multiple problems (threat saturation, individually strong mons, blazingly-fast speed tiers), even if it doesn't exactly fit into tiering policy.

Was only bringing up the Ubers booster mons because someone else said it. I agree they should not be included in the discussion.

Again, I agree with the people calling for waterpon/Zama suspects. Wanted to highlight something else I've been thinking is an issue in the meta for quite a while and see some stronger arguments supporting it other than "just phaze them out/its actually balanced."
 

ImZer0

I COULD BE BANNED!
Garchomp (Garchomp) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Water/Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes

Tankchomp in general is p underrated in the tier. Think of it as Lando + Ting-Lu as one. Helmet + Rough Skin is incredibly good into the merit of physical threats, Voltturn, and punishing U-Turns. Its also a pretty awesome blanket check to Moon as most of the time you only need to force it out once. D-Tail is also crucial for avoiding being cheesed by shit like Hawlucha, Ironpress Zama (minus Roar variants), B-Swipe G-Fire, and Curse Garg. All this while setting hazards. This fits only on more offensive structures as opposed to its competition that fits on everything, but it gets the job done. Not a fan of SD Chomp rn, it’s too slow and not strong enough to get going, plus its easy to check or rkill for most teams.
I agree with this a lot, i really really like TankChomp a lot in SV despite all of scor, tusk, and lando being extremely common and splashable ground types. Sure it isnt as splashable as those 3 but rough skin + helmet while being able to setup both spikes and rocks is so cool and valuable in general, imo i think its really shines on ghold hazard stacking teams since those teams really appreciate the role compression chomp brings to the table. I do also agree that SD Scale Shot Chomp isnt really that good in current SV OU due to how slow it is and how it loses badly to Dondozo, but hopefully one day that set becomes good again(and i also hope chomp rises out of BL one day in SV as well, considering that it was one of OU top dogs and i truly think chomp is still alright despite it having major competition this gen)
 

Shaymin Sky

The Rainbow and the Pokémon Master!
is a Community Contributor
The thing I really dislike about Zamazenta is how it warps people's perception of what's actually fine in a meta, in any other generation Zama as it currently is would be a quickban, however, we underestimated the dog for far too long and grew way too comfortable with its presence in the tier, I mean, what's not to like of a mon that's not only faster than 95% of the meta, but also ridiculously bulky and can even setup and sweep teams while abusing said bulk and thus very easy to fit in a team and call it a day?

If IronPress sets didn't exist, I would have way less of an issue with Zama, but the fact that this set has survived for so long and is constantly making adaptations to the supposed "consistent answers" it has is just plainly annoying, and said answers almost always just happen to be stuff that can just fall completely flat if Zama happens to have the right coverage move or Tera type for them. Remember when people claimed Fairies actually did anything to Zama? Too bad no Fairy is both faster than it (aside from Iron Valiant a single time per match and I don't even think it kills Zama at full) and can also take a Heavy Slam to their faces, Gholdengo was also a very good answer until you notice that you MUST run the Defensive variant or else Crunch will eventually overwhelm you with a random crit or Defense drop.

As I say, the main problem with the doggo is that people rely on this broken stat stick to answer many of the otherwise also broken mons that plague this meta, kinda like how people wanna tell you that "Dondozo beats it so it's probably fine", as if Dozo beating a physical isn't the equivalent of saying "Blissey beats that Special Attacker, it's fine".
Zamazenta is definitely troubling to deal with defensively especially for Bulky Offense archetypes, however I do think the pro's of having Zamazenta in the tier outweighs the negatives. Zamazenta as of now acts as a general check to physical pressure within the metagame. Because of Tera and this generation having so much more offensive threats than usual, I do believe that Pokemon like Zamazenta that soft check general roles (physical setup) is important for the tier. Having to individually prepare for Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, Dragonite, Rillaboom etc- is just not feasible beyond very fat balance / stall structures. Offensive archetypes like BO, Offense, HO, and even some balances could get very easily reverse swept/heavily pressured by these Pokemon if a soft check were to go away.

Knowing that Zamazenta does have a useful place in the ecosystem of the tier is one thing, but how 'broken' is Zamazenta offensively. I'd say its extremely good but the issue with a lack of reliable recovery for a Pokemon that is intended to switch into threats constantly, can mitigate it's long term offensive value. It's not like Zamazenta isn't getting pressured by said pokemon prior, Rillaboom does tons of damage with Wood Hammer for example. Knock Off the Heavy Duty Boots and get up hazards and Zamazenta has even less long term staying power. Zamazenta can run Resto-Chesto allowing it to play more aggressively more safely but that waste a slot and item. Four attack sets while having good coverage mitigates it's defensive utility since you lack Iron Defense and defensive EV's. Zamazenta has to carefully think about how to use it's limited time in the game within its 4 moves, that much I believe is true and I do think that makes it an interesting Pokemon counter play wise. One issue though is Alomomola Wish Pass plus Zamazenta, I can see how defensive cores like that can be a bit overwhelming however I don't think thats fully Zamazenta's fault.

Zamazenta has some checks in Iron valiant, Iron Moth, Dragapult, Primarina, Raging Bolt, and others but these are quite situational because Tera and movesets flip these matchups on their head. I do agree that beating Zamazenta can feel a bit inconsistent, yes it's constantly chipped and has real checks but Tera and its 4 potential moves can muddy the waters. Thing is I don't think this is a Volcarona situation where you outright win. You can bait moves and there's Tera ghost, real checks, you can cripple it, it has too much GENERAL counter play through just playing the game to be broken in my eyes. Also as said before Zamazenta is crucial to the defensive and offensive ecosystem of the metagame unlike Volcarona. Just my thoughts.
 
My two sense on the BE discussion is that there is an inherently unhealthy warping of speed tiers and acceleration of setup sweepers. Even if this arguably doesn't outright break many mons in OU, there is a reason why teams that aren't purely defensive are so reliant on priority to RK everything. Setup sweepers in gen 9 are extremely oppressive with the combination of available tools like Tera, BE, and general power creep. Almost every team needs Unaware walls, phasers, and/or priority or they are practically unviable. It is here where the focus on the potential brokenness or not of various individual mons misses the point of the inherent pressure BEs existence puts on the builder.

For BE specifically, it accelerates the timeline of setup sweepers by roughly a turn and also allows mons like Iron Valiant to essentially be double dance with only one setup move. Furthermore, it makes RKing with speed tiers generally harder, even though some BE speed mons like Valiant are often used to RK once. The limited use of this and the general warping of speed tiers makes RKing without priority generally unreliable, which has been a huge factor in archetypes like Psyspam having difficulty with viability. BE being used as an superior alternative to choice items makes it just generally much harder to play around offensive threats without phasing or Unaware walls.

Another thing that concerns me is Tera. Not to get too into my anti-Tera opinion, but the idea that we can just RK things with priority isn't very stable when Tera so easily flips matchups on their heads. In addition to power boosting and/or coverage options, Tera also allows for a free turn of a setup move far more often than you would get in almost any prior meta. Given this and how BE accelerates setup sweeping by roughly a turn, I do think it is an inherently unhealthy combination that makes the climate of setup sweepers far more oppressive. As it appears we aren't getting rid of Tera, BE would be a decent target to slow down setup sweepers. The now banned Volc was the main speed boosting setup sweeper that didn't benefit from BE. So with that out of the way, pretty much everything major left either benefits from BE or doesn't boost its own speed like Zama.
 
My two sense on the BE discussion is that there is an inherently unhealthy warping of speed tiers and acceleration of setup sweepers. Even if this arguably doesn't outright break many mons in OU, there is a reason why teams that aren't purely defensive are so reliant on priority to RK everything. Setup sweepers in gen 9 are extremely oppressive with the combination of available tools like Tera, BE, and general power creep. Almost every team needs Unaware walls, phasers, and/or priority or they are practically unviable. It is here where the focus on the potential brokenness or not of various individual mons misses the point of the inherent pressure BEs existence puts on the builder.
And again, I'll just say I don't at all agree. We don't actually have a lot of BE that boost speed, just Iron Valiant and Boulder (the latter being fishy and rather underwhelming) and the former being plenty balanced. Roaring Moon boosts speed through a move, and its strength is balanced by its item being one time use and thus keeping it from coming in a bunch. The speed tiers are screwy because there's just a ton of speed naturally in the tier from Zamazenta to Dragapult to Deoxys-S, and yeah BE inflates that, but the one time nature is very reasonable when nothing isn't being pushed over by it.

Every team does not need Unawares, they don't NEED phasers (though it's nice to have), and priority is great to have in general so it's not exactly a bad thing. But even then not all teams run it. It feels like you're overexaggerating just how strong these elements are. It's been said already but Balance has been a strong playstyle for a while now with many variations of how it's built. It's not just offense running around.

People are adapting to BE threats fine. While I still have my reservations on pokemon like RM at times, it's clear the tier is able to contain these threats to a fair enough extent. The ban of Volcarona did wonders for teambuilding and while there's room for improvement (wellspring and kyurem being the most contentious), we're moving in a pretty solid direction. BE is a fine part of the metagame that, if anything, offers a unique source of speed control that can be used to reign in opposing offensive threats while coming at the cost of the one time nature. I find this dynamic unique, and rather healthy overall for the tier.
 

Finchinator

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The thing I really dislike about Zamazenta is how it warps people's perception of what's actually fine in a meta, in any other generation Zama as it currently is would be a quickban, however, we underestimated the dog for far too long and grew way too comfortable with its presence in the tier, I mean, what's not to like of a mon that's not only faster than 95% of the meta, but also ridiculously bulky and can even setup and sweep teams while abusing said bulk and thus very easy to fit in a team and call it a day?

If IronPress sets didn't exist, I would have way less of an issue with Zama, but the fact that this set has survived for so long and is constantly making adaptations to the supposed "consistent answers" it has is just plainly annoying, and said answers almost always just happen to be stuff that can just fall completely flat if Zama happens to have the right coverage move or Tera type for them. Remember when people claimed Fairies actually did anything to Zama? Too bad no Fairy is both faster than it (aside from Iron Valiant a single time per match and I don't even think it kills Zama at full) and can also take a Heavy Slam to their faces, Gholdengo was also a very good answer until you notice that you MUST run the Defensive variant or else Crunch will eventually overwhelm you with a random crit or Defense drop.

As I say, the main problem with the doggo is that people rely on this broken stat stick to answer many of the otherwise also broken mons that plague this meta, kinda like how people wanna tell you that "Dondozo beats it so it's probably fine", as if Dozo beating a physical isn't the equivalent of saying "Blissey beats that Special Attacker, it's fine".
I disagree with this a ton. I mean Zamazenta was suspected way before people were comfortable with it and it wasn’t even close to a ban. Since then, it’s only gotten more counterplay.

The issue is a Pokemon reliant on ID+Press is going to naturally run into Press immunities or durable resists. It lacks the ability to immediately threaten these Pokemon. That doesn’t make it bad, but there are far more than enough natural checks to Zamazenta and when you get into teams, cores, teras, etc., very few teams are actually weak to it. And this is despite little strain on building relative to other top tier Pokemon.

Zama is awesome and is able to hold its own really well, but it’s not close to broken and you could name a half-dozen (maybe more) things with less counterplay that exist in the tier now.
 
And again, I'll just say I don't at all agree. We don't actually have a lot of BE that boost speed, just Iron Valiant and Boulder (the latter being fishy and rather underwhelming) and the former being plenty balanced. Roaring Moon boosts speed through a move, and its strength is balanced by its item being one time use and thus keeping it from coming in a bunch. The speed tiers are screwy because there's just a ton of speed naturally in the tier from Zamazenta to Dragapult to Deoxys-S, and yeah BE inflates that, but the one time nature is very reasonable when nothing isn't being pushed over by it.
Although it is less common and works on less sets, BE speed Moon is still plenty viable. It does not only boost speed through a move. It in fact has 3 ways to boost speed, being BE, DD, and also potentially Scale Shot.

Mons like D-speed, Zama, and Pult that would otherwise be blazingly fast are nothing special in a meta with boosted speed tiers. It's not just the stats that warp speed tiers. BE takes this to another level entirely.

1 time usage is also a very good trade off for not being choice locked. That brings the balance far more in the favor of setup sweepers than RKers because RKers need to be reactive. A priority mon or a scarfer can come in and threaten an RK as many times as you need. The 1 chance to accelerate the sweeping timeline is comparatively much easier for an offensive player to take advantage of since you only need a turn and maybe Tera to do it.

Every team does not need Unawares, they don't NEED phasers (though it's nice to have), and priority is great to have in general so it's not exactly a bad thing. But even then not all teams run it. It feels like you're overexaggerating just how strong these elements are. It's been said already but Balance has been a strong playstyle for a while now with many variations of how it's built. It's not just offense running around.
To clarify, my point was nearly every team runs at least 1 of the 3 by necessity. Not that every team needs all 3 at once. Pretty much every stall team I have ever seen runs Unaware walls. Almost every offensive teams runs priority. Most teams in general run at least 1 if not 2+ of these 3 things. Balance is strong and varied, but most balance teams have at least one of these three things as well. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of many successful teams that don't run at least 1 of these 3 countermeasures for sweeping.

People are adapting to BE threats fine. While I still have my reservations on pokemon like RM at times, it's clear the tier is able to contain these threats to a fair enough extent. The ban of Volcarona did wonders for teambuilding and while there's room for improvement (wellspring and kyurem being the most contentious), we're moving in a pretty solid direction. BE is a fine part of the metagame that, if anything, offers a unique source of speed control that can be used to reign in opposing offensive threats while coming at the cost of the one time nature. I find this dynamic unique, and rather healthy overall for the tier.
I mean, I just disagree on RM being contained enough in general. That aside, you're right that the Volc ban was good and had a positive impact on the meta. But the way people are adapting to BE threats is still primarily through phasing, Unaware walls, and priority. Also, the occasional fast Taunt/Encore that RM after a DD probably outspeeds anyways. But Taunt/Encore also brings up boosted speed tiers and their relevance because it is a speed game.
 
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I wish there wasn't so many Darks in this tier and/or the Prankster nerf was undone. I miss being able to encore these shits to death with impunity. I feel like that alone would make dealing with a lot of threats in this tier easier to contend with that isn't "Use BE Valiant or Ogerpon" which while very strong, also make me sick at times to do
 
All this talk about team building constraints, and no talk of Kyurem is surprising. Every team is basically Kyurem weak. Nice Blissey, eat a +1 Icicle Spear bozo. Dog? Ogre? Naw, Icy Boi needs to go!
Just wait until I pull up with
:Bronzong:
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Psychic
- Protect
(PRAY TO ARECEUS FOR NO TERA FIRE TERA BLAST)
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
All this talk about team building constraints, and no talk of Kyurem is surprising. Every team is basically Kyurem weak. Nice Blissey, eat a +1 Icicle Spear bozo. Dog? Ogre? Naw, Icy Boi needs to go!
Ironically Stall struggles the most with Kyurem out of any archetype. They don’t run bulky steels that can pivot around it like Gambit, no offensive mons that can threaten Kyu out, no AV Gking, nada. However Stall definitely has ways around it.

One thing I found was that Mola with 144HP/112Def/252SpD can tank one Specs Freeze Dry at full and tech Mirror Coat to wipe it off the face of the Earth. There was also a Rachi Stall knexhawk ran which checks most Kyurem variants nicely. The set variant they have to watch out for is DD and hope it’s not carrying Freeze Dry.
 
Ironically Stall struggles the most with Kyurem out of any archetype. They don’t run bulky steels that can pivot around it like Gambit, no offensive mons that can threaten Kyu out, no AV Gking, nada. However Stall definitely has ways around it.

One thing I found was that Mola with 144HP/112Def/252SpD can tank one Specs Freeze Dry at full and tech Mirror Coat to wipe it off the face of the Earth. There was also a Rachi Stall knexhawk ran which checks most Kyurem variants nicely. The set variant they have to watch out for is DD and hope it’s not carrying Freeze Dry.
This is just... wrong. Yes, they don't have all the things you said, but what they do have is blissey and dozo, who wall the specs/HDB sets and DD sets respectively.
If they really want to, stall can throw on stuff like bronzong or even just something like ghold if they want to. Only really the mixed sets (which can be played around with a proper tera) can cause stall trouble and even then usually something like a tera clodsire can temporarily stop it to get a toxic off and then its just a waiting game. A tera dark clodsire (tera steel just sits on it) can take one 252 attack (though the mixed sets usually have less) icicle spear and get that crucial toxic off. Blissey takes 74% max from scale shot/icicle spear if its 5 hits (59% if its 4 hits) and thus can stall it out decently well (moreso if its protect blissey, which is a good set in its own right). Also bp kyurem only 3hit kos blissey, so they can def stall it out if its that set.
The counterplay that stall uses for many mons is a lot different from the counterplay any other teamstyle uses. In the traditional ways you counter kyurem, yes, stall sucks against kyurem. But in there ways they counter mons, stall is pretty good against kyurem. Its a matchup that they wouldn't mind gone, but don't really care all that much if it stays.
 
Ironically Stall struggles the most with Kyurem out of any archetype. They don’t run bulky steels that can pivot around it like Gambit, no offensive mons that can threaten Kyu out, no AV Gking, nada. However Stall definitely has ways around it.

One thing I found was that Mola with 144HP/112Def/252SpD can tank one Specs Freeze Dry at full and tech Mirror Coat to wipe it off the face of the Earth. There was also a Rachi Stall knexhawk ran which checks most Kyurem variants nicely. The set variant they have to watch out for is DD and hope it’s not carrying Freeze Dry.
This is just straight up wrong. Nearly all stall players of note disagree with you given nearly every stall player voted DNB for the Kyurem suspect test. There are clear outs, sometimes with Tera if need be. You just have to figure out what set it is, which there will be room to do given how fat most stall teams are.
 
I got some builds to share. First, an update on the Fake Out Hitmonlee anti-lead set. I greatly overlooked Shield Dust on Ribombee. In testing, I must have not initially faced any Ribombee with that ability because the Fake Out tactic worked. But then I ran into one on ladder with it. In hindsight, I don't know why anyone would run any other ability. Sweet Veil makes no sense after sleep ban and Honey Gather was always useless. The other, other problem was that it just straight lost to lead Lando-T. I felt this was worth the trade off if it dealt with lead sash Ribombee, but since it doesn't it's not nearly as neat a set as I thought. I still found some use for it as an anti-lead or out of the box Rker, but it is very, very niche to say the least. Anyway....

Roaring Heat:

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast
- Scale Shot

To all those who act like Tera Flying is the only Roaring Moon, nope. The best part about Tera Fairy is that it complements both offensive and defensive needs. Offensively, Fairy hits most of the Fighting and Dark types that would otherwise resist STAB Knock Off. Defensively, Tera Fairy allows you to resist Body Press and U-Turn while still resisting Sucker Punch. You also become neutral to opposing Ice and Fairy moves. This allows for a lot of versatility with Tera Fairy sets. In this case, I wanted to make a more sweep leaning one to prove that Tera Flying Acrobatics isn't the only way.

Scale Shot allows you to +2 speed even with only 1 DD. You beat potential Focus Sash mons or get an extra speed boost without stopping the attack. The combination of this with BE Attack is pretty potent. Most of the time you will be using a multi-hit move of 75 BP STAB or higher at nearly +2 after only a single DD. This is close to being like a Dragon type Dual Wingbeat that also boosts speed. It's only at the lowest role that Scale Shot is 50 BP. So even without Loaded Dice, the odds are in your favor of getting a decently strong move. While the defense drop could make to more prone to being RK'd by priority, it generally isn't too hard to weigh the decision to use it with what remains on the opposing team. You can choose whether the extra speed boost and/or breaking a potential sash is more important for making progress against the opposing team.

For other ideas, I would also say that Tera Fire, Steel, Fighting, and Ghost are pretty decent options for Moon since they all resist U-Turn and give you some good resistances. My rule of thumb for building Moon sets is that you need a move that can hit Tusk and Zama super effectively. You don't necesarrily need to run Tera Flying Acro, but you do generally want Acrobatics if you don't have another way to hit them. Outside of certain Tera Blasts, Zen Headbutt is the only move Roaring Moon really gets that could accomplish this in some circumstances. If using BE, the BE attack better fits sets with non-STAB Acrobatics to boost the power. You can also use defensive items such as Grassy Seed.

Life Cyclizar:

Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat

The goal here is to make up for Cyclizar's low attacking stats with Life Orb and high BP moves. LO Double Edge actually hits pretty hard. Regenerator can make LO chip and Double Edge recoil a bit less awful. Knock Off hits Ghost types. Draco Meteor and Overheat can also hit the most common ghosts in the tier in Dragapult and Gholdengo respectively. They can also deal big chip to a lot of physical walls. You can use mixed attacking to carve up teams.

Cyclizar in general is kinda interesting to revisit. I mean, it's a spinner that has two different ways to hit Ghold for super effective damage. There is also maybe an option for Shift Gear sets.

New Anti-hazard lead:

Sableye @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Taunt
- Disable
- Foul Play

This one is an experiment. You can Prankster Taunt most hazard leads to get that denial. To deny Hamurott and maybe Kleavor, you Protect turn 1 and then Prankster Disable turn 2 to prevent hazards from going up. Unfortunately, this takes 3 move slots and you are probably sacking a mon. But at least you are preventing hazards. Well, it's still unreliable if they know the set and play around it. But this was the best I could do.

I wasn't sure what to run for the 4th move. Foul Play seemed decent for damage. Will-O-Wisp or ThunderWave also seemed decent for the status. I had the thought of maybe setting a screen up like Reflect to make the idea of sacrificing the lead more productive than just denial. Gravity, Rain Dance, and Sunny day were also potential setter options for very specifically niche teams maybe.


How could I forget Prankster on a Dark type? :(

ComfKee:

Comfey @ Kee Berry
Ability: Triage
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Giga Drain
- Stored Power

My take on a Comfey sweeper. Kee Berry is great for getting a sneaky defense boost outside of Grassy Terrain teams. From there, I went typical Calm Mind and 3 attacks. Stored Power does a lot of damage for wallbreaking with the Kee Berry boost and a Calm Mind or two. Heatran is a bit of a problem, but you can use your teammates for that.

Tera Normal is really good since it takes away all your prior weaknesses while Comfey naturally resists Fighting. Also, most mons that can hit the Fighting STAB hard die to Draining Kiss. It's a very easy out to flip any bad matchups with minimal drawbacks.
 
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I disagree with this a ton. I mean Zamazenta was suspected way before people were comfortable with it and it wasn’t even close to a ban. Since then, it’s only gotten more counterplay.

The issue is a Pokemon reliant on ID+Press is going to naturally run into Press immunities or durable resists. It lacks the ability to immediately threaten these Pokemon. That doesn’t make it bad, but there are far more than enough natural checks to Zamazenta and when you get into teams, cores, teras, etc., very few teams are actually weak to it. And this is despite little strain on building relative to other top tier Pokemon.

Zama is awesome and is able to hold its own really well, but it’s not close to broken and you could name a half-dozen (maybe more) things with less counterplay that exist in the tier now.
While I dislike zama, I agree that there are more problematic pokemon in the meta. Stuff like kyurem and especially waterpon are way harder to answer repeatedly, since any switch-ins that they might have either get set up on or worn down by coverage
 
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