Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

i don't think you can honestly say Kyogre is "only a bit bulkier" than chi-yu, Kyogre's 100/90/140 paired with one of the best defensive tipings in the game is not comparable to fishy's 55/80/120.
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 107-126 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- 76.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chi-Yu: 118-139 (47 - 55.3%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO

I don't see these as comparable tbh.



I really haven't seen much of gambit recently, but it's probably just the new toy syndrome, i bet the mon is as broken as ever.
Ghold after the dlc does not seem as problematic, both the new entries that threaten it and the added coverage on a lot of mons make it more manageable.
A “bit bulkier” might be a stretch when looking at raw bulk.
252+ Atk Tera Water Mew Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chi-Yu: 428-506 (170.5 - 201.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tera Water Mew Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 230-272 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Grass Mew Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 390-462 (114.3 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tera Grass Mew Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But consider the following;
-Chi-Yu with its resistances is too bulky and fast for how much power is behind its special attacks.
-It has pretty important resistances like Dragapult’s Shadow Ball, Rillaboom’s Grassy Glide, Make it Rain and Shadow Ball from Gholdengo, Kingambit’s STABs, Torch Song from Skeledirge, etc.
-It has Choice Scarf sets which outspeed everything besides Deoxys-S with even Modest nature, and even then can use Boots + Web support
and most importantly
-Both are obviously broken despite having flaws that aren’t detrimental enough to make them worth considering for a drop
 
How would Stellar type work as a regular old tera type?
stellar is basically a mini dmax button without all the big dumb fat numbers, and then a niche anti tera counter move. that wouldnt be as fun for the single game experience so its just a wish in isolation and not anything serious LOL
 
stellar is basically a mini dmax button without all the big dumb fat numbers, and then a niche anti tera counter move. that wouldnt be as fun for the single game experience so its just a wish in isolation and not anything serious LOL
it's definitely designed specifically to be the all-purpose anti-tera-raid option. there's already been a massive uptick in enamorus in raids because she can spam stellar tera blast, plus serperior and especially terapagos are common choices now
 
I do feel the same way. I think Ghold could become more problematic later onwards, it felt rather manageable at times before too after all. Gambit though really needs to go. It still strains team building was too much. Honestly I think it's still more broken than anything currently, I can imagine Deo S becoming manageable in a few days, I don't think Gambit will ever be unproblematic
Ghold really only became an issue after the release of h-sam, when hazard stacking didn't cost you momentum (unless you ceaseless missed) anymore. Like pre h-sam Ghold was just a fine pokemon in the tier that really only stall andys complained about. I miss that era of OU
 
Has anyone used Knock Off Darkrai with all these spikes around? Sounds like a nice alternative to NP against bulkier teams. Probably not as good though.
thing is, deo-s also gets knock off, thunder wave, and taunt, which is basically all the utility moves that darkrai has access to. in my mind there's no real reason to run utility darkrai when you can just play to its strengths instead and put your utility moves on a mon that's way faster

although i suppose a quasi-utility set with wisp or disable could see niche usage on darkrai
 
Has anyone used Knock Off Darkrai with all these spikes around? Sounds like a nice alternative to NP against bulkier teams. Probably not as good though.
Yeah actually that's the only set that I really liked but I haven't used it a ton. Dark Pulse + Ice Beam and then Knock + whatever, can run another attack (focus blast/sludge) or hypnosis/wisp/taunt/T-wave/whatever you want, could even still run NP if you really want. It's basically the same as boots wake but with hypno>flip turn and a different 30% cheese STAB. If you knock off boots on fat teams then switching into hazards + hypnosis becomes annoying for the usual counters to deal with. Wake still better imo because its typing and STAB draco.
thing is, deo-s also gets knock off, thunder wave, and taunt, which is basically all the utility moves that darkrai has access to. in my mind there's no real reason to run utility darkrai when you can just play to its strengths instead and put your utility moves on a mon that's way faster

although i suppose a quasi-utility set with wisp or disable could see niche usage on darkrai
Deoxy's has 70% of the base special attack that darkrai has, that is not insignificant in fact it's a very big deal. It also has 70% of it's base hp which is a very big deal. Darkrai can live 1 hit and this comes up more often than it might seem especially with all the priority running around, doesn't let samu set up spikes for free, resists gambit's sucker punch, also hypnosis is an option darkrai and when I run wisp/twave/taunt on darkrai I don't get as much mileage. You can actually hit dhengo with smething other than uninvested knock off, and dark pulse is better overall and harder to switch into than psycho boost. Remember even if psycho is base 140 deo-s ony has 95 sp atk darkrai has freaking 135. Peeople say darkrai isn't strong enough to sweep so idk why people are shitting their pants over deo.

hre's one example of the bulk, not gonna spam a bunch of calcs but:

+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 240-283 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 238-282 (98.7 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
 
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I will echo the sentiment about the meta and say that I'm pleasantly surprised how unchaotic it is considering how much has changed. All of the new Pokémon are all viable to a certain extent and none of them appear to be problematic (except Stellapagos of course). Even the three Uber drops aren't as crazy as I was expecting. If anything, I think the most annoying mon in the tier right now is Gambit.
 
As a few have stated, yeah I think the metagame is in a weirdly balanced state rn. It feels like, there's broken things of course yeah, but the broken things aren't textbook broken, moreso like "damn this guy's annoying as HELL" broken. It feels like it's broken checks broken, but in a way that brings everything into a well tied knot, in a chaotic sort of harmony. I want stuff to be gone, but I just can't muster the thoughts nor the replays to prove X is broken w/o being beat by something else.
 
I will echo the sentiment about the meta and say that I'm pleasantly surprised how unchaotic it is considering how much has changed. All of the new Pokémon are all viable to a certain extent and none of them appear to be problematic (except Stellapagos of course). Even the three Uber drops aren't as crazy as I was expecting. If anything, I think the most annoying mon in the tier right now is Gambit.
As a few have stated, yeah I think the metagame is in a weirdly balanced state rn. It feels like, there's broken things of course yeah, but the broken things aren't textbook broken, moreso like "damn this guy's annoying as HELL" broken. It feels like it's broken checks broken, but in a way that brings everything into a well tied knot, in a chaotic sort of harmony. I want stuff to be gone, but I just can't muster the thoughts nor the replays to prove X is broken w/o being beat by something else.
Because we haven't banned all of the checks and counters. It's like when people decide to remove a species from an ecosystem and realize it had plenty of useful ecological niches after it's too late. You may be right that gambit is the most annoying mon but with all the new threats dropped from ubers and introduced in the dlc, would you say it has gotten easier or more difficult to deal with threats like gambit/dhengo? I would argue it has gotten substantially easier now that you have more actual threatening counterplay.
 
I will echo the sentiment about the meta and say that I'm pleasantly surprised how unchaotic it is considering how much has changed. All of the new Pokémon are all viable to a certain extent and none of them appear to be problematic (except Stellapagos of course). Even the three Uber drops aren't as crazy as I was expecting. If anything, I think the most annoying mon in the tier right now is Gambit.
As a few have stated, yeah I think the metagame is in a weirdly balanced state rn. It feels like, there's broken things of course yeah, but the broken things aren't textbook broken, moreso like "damn this guy's annoying as HELL" broken. It feels like it's broken checks broken, but in a way that brings everything into a well tied knot, in a chaotic sort of harmony. I want stuff to be gone, but I just can't muster the thoughts nor the replays to prove X is broken w/o being beat by something else.
this is the "it's quiet… too quiet" portion of the meta
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
I would argue it has gotten substantially easier now that you have more actual threatening counterplay.
I agree, i think counterplay for gambit is easier to have then before DLC2.
however......... we are going to have to have counterplay for more problmeatic mons though.
 
Hi everyone! First and foremost, you guys are doing Gods work here with all this testing and whatnot, good stuff.

Secondly, I’m just wondering how my Kanto mons have been testing, specifically:
- Blastoise (my fave mon of all time)
- Zapdos
- Kantonian Arcanine
- Dragonite

Much appreciated!
 

Dusk Mage Necrozma

formerly XenonHero126
Hi everyone! First and foremost, you guys are doing Gods work here with all this testing and whatnot, good stuff.

Secondly, I’m just wondering how my Kanto mons have been testing, specifically:
- Blastoise (my fave mon of all time)
- Zapdos
- Kantonian Arcanine
- Dragonite

Much appreciated!
Zapdos is great, Dragonite is great. The other 2 are more iffy.
 
I know this was not taken seriously but having Darkrai tested in gen 7 and 8 could be interesting, specially in gen 7 where many counter to him exist like Magearna and Chansey, I don't know if this is possible to test a Uber pokemon long before the tier has been stopped but since ban like Dugtrio arena trap has existed I suppose this could be possible, yeah sorry I know this isn't the best place to talk about that ^^".
 
Hi everyone! First and foremost, you guys are doing Gods work here with all this testing and whatnot, good stuff.

Secondly, I’m just wondering how my Kanto mons have been testing, specifically:
- Blastoise (my fave mon of all time)
- Zapdos
- Kantonian Arcanine
- Dragonite

Much appreciated!
  • :zapdos: the most consistently well-performing mon in the entire franchise (bw doesn't count) for a reason. high spa, powerful stabs, reasonably fast, and decently bulky, especially with its unique defensive typing. pairs excellently with the still-strong balance core of glowking and ting-lu, though it now faces stiff competition in this role from skarmory. static is excellent for punishing contact moves and will stop sweeps dead in their tracks with just a little sprinkle of luck. matches up well defensively into top-tier mons like great tusk and zamazenta and offensively into enamorus, kingambit, gholdengo, great tusk and zamazenta again, pex, dozo, hamurott, volc, skarm, and a host of others. has consistently been a top-10 mon in this gen in the last two metas and will likely continue to perform, though raging bolt and skarmory compete for teamspace as an offensive electric-type and a defensive flying-type
  • :dragonite: a very solid mon that's historically performed quite well this generation. boots let it come in on hazards to keep multiscale intact, giving it plenty of opportunities to set up a dragon dance or two and start sweeping. tera normal espeed is some of the strongest priority in the meta. i expect its viability to suffer a little in this dlc, though, because there are several more options against it—skarmory walls the eq/espeed/roost sets all day long and can phaze out the ice spinner sets before they threaten it too much; icicle spear kyurem and triple axel weavile destroy it through multiscale, forcing it to tera early if it wants to survive; volcarona and roaring moon are back to threaten it with burn and the occasional scale shot; basically every relevant new dlcmon threatens it on switch, except gouging fire, which threatens to burn… this dlc was really not good for dragonite, but i still expect it to have a place here when all is said and done
  • :arcanine: almost completely outclassed offensively by its hisuian form, which can do every meaningful thing the kantonian form can plus fling insanely powerful dual stabs with no recoil, and has a little more attack to boot. defensively, though, it's a bit more interesting since it isn't shackled with a defensively hideous rock typing. intimidate, will-o-wisp, decent bulk, and reliable recovery in morning sun make it a potential niche pick as a defensive fire-type, but it has to compete in this role with gouging fire, moltres, and occasionally volcarona, all of whom just kinda do the job better while offering more offensively. the pure typing and intimidate are interesting, though—i could see this being a microniche mon
  • :blastoise: i hate to say this about someone's favorite mon, but unfortunately, i don't think blastoise has any role in ou. it's outclassed as a bulky water-type spinner by tentacruel, as a bulky water-type shell smasher by cloyster, and as a bulky water-type in general by a bunch of other pokemon that people actually use. it doesn't really bring anything unique to the table that can't be done better by something else
 
Pardon the unwelcomed person's intrusion, but I have a small topic of debate to bring up;
Excadrill vs Iron Treads.

Now, I fully expect a good few people to just three liner it, saying Treads is just better and Drill is bad, but hear me out. Both of these mons, even though they won't break into OU, have strong niches/roles in various setups.

Why do I bring this up? Drill and Treads both can fulfill EXCEPTIONALLY similar roles, while also being able to branch out from one another in different, but both still very respectable, directions. I want to try to spark a discussion on which one people would think would be better/have more impact and why.

Excadrill's PerksIron Tread's PerksShared Traits
Stats: 110/135/60/50/65/88 (508)Stats: 90/112/120/72/70/106 (570)Steel/Ground Typing
Naturally hits harderNaturally has better physical bulkAccess to Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock
Has access to Swords DanceHas access to Knock, Ice Spinner, and Volt Switch4x Resistance to Stealth Rock
Has access to either Sand Rush or Mold BreakerCan* Quark Drive on switch-inAffected by Spikes and Sticky Web
Has better item flexibility*Is able to abuse VoltTurn shenanigansImmune to Toxic Spikes
Can set Stealth Rock through Magic BounceIs naturally faster, thus can use better EV spreadsBoth have Iron Head + EQ STAB Coverage
Better sweeperBetter utilitySimilar offensive move coverages
Similar special bulk
Same weaknesses
*Quark Drive isn't always the best option, and you lose QD upon switching out.
*Item flexibility only refers to not having the feeling of being goaded into a specific item (IE: Booster Energy.)

I've been playing around with Excadrill a little bit and find that it can honestly be a good substitute for Treads on a team, depending upon what you need/are afraid of. Both mons have shared perks, and they each have their own sets of perks over the other. Exca can be more of a threat immediately, whereas Treads can be more of a pain to break through or offer more general utility.
 
As of right now the meta is pretty fun. Balanced? Idk, still too early, and new toy syndrome in full effect. Though it is pleasantly surprising to not have an immediate tier 0 threat to ban. That being said I still think there are some aspects of the Metagame that we can improve on.

First being Hazards. Yeah guess what? They're still a problem. Not only did DLC2 introduce/reintroduce great Hazard setters, specifically Deo-S, Skarm, and Gliscor, but as it turns out the old culprits are still great. Ting-Lu, and Sam-H still get up Spikes for free btw. Sure Gholdengo is seeing less play currently because of the influx of Dark Types, once new toy syndrome settles it'll be back, but Defog Mons are at their all time worst. You just can not afford to skip a beat in this meta filled to the brim with threats. At least Excadrill is decent, but it's so frail it's only really viable on Sand Teams. Leaving Tusk to once again do all the heavy lifting since Cinderace has been consumed by all the new Dragon Types. Before it was easy, just ban Gholdengo, but now I have no clue how to solve this. Maybe once the meta settles all will be clear, but right now invest in HDB.

Second for me is Booster Energy. It's been a long time coming honestly. Before it was "manageable" when there were only really three viable Paradox mons to deal with. With DLC2 and the influx of new Paradox mons plus the unbanning of Roaring Moon it's really starting to show just how broken of an item it really is. We are allowing far too many Pokemon either get a free Choice Scarf or Life Orb with zero draw back in the tier, and I do believe that Booster Energy should be on everyone's radar when it comes to problematic elements in the Metagame. Pokemon like Darkrai should not be considered "slow" that is not a good thing. Banning one or two Paradox mons will not solves this issue this time either. Tiering action should be placed on this item it is too much.
 

Dusk Mage Necrozma

formerly XenonHero126
I'm trying to build balance teams, but every single time I end up with the same core of Gliscor/Vest Glowking/Great Tusk/Scarf Gholdengo, and with them + a Kingambit in the back I'm only left with one spot for a fast pivot or something. Is there any other defensive core that can actually handle all of the tier's threats? Ideally with recovery that isn't Lefties.
 
Pardon the unwelcomed person's intrusion, but I have a small topic of debate to bring up;
Excadrill vs Iron Treads.

Now, I fully expect a good few people to just three liner it, saying Treads is just better and Drill is bad, but hear me out. Both of these mons, even though they won't break into OU, have strong niches/roles in various setups.

Why do I bring this up? Drill and Treads both can fulfill EXCEPTIONALLY similar roles, while also being able to branch out from one another in different, but both still very respectable, directions. I want to try to spark a discussion on which one people would think would be better/have more impact and why.

Excadrill's PerksIron Tread's PerksShared Traits
Stats: 110/135/60/50/65/88 (508)Stats: 90/112/120/72/70/106 (570)Steel/Ground Typing
Naturally hits harderNaturally has better physical bulkAccess to Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock
Has access to Swords DanceHas access to Knock, Ice Spinner, and Volt Switch4x Resistance to Stealth Rock
Has access to either Sand Rush or Mold BreakerCan* Quark Drive on switch-inAffected by Spikes and Sticky Web
Has better item flexibility*Is able to abuse VoltTurn shenanigansImmune to Toxic Spikes
Can set Stealth Rock through Magic BounceIs naturally faster, thus can use better EV spreadsBoth have Iron Head + EQ STAB Coverage
Better sweeperBetter utilitySimilar offensive move coverages
Similar special bulk
Same weaknesses
*Quark Drive isn't always the best option, and you lose QD upon switching out.
*Item flexibility only refers to not having the feeling of being goaded into a specific item (IE: Booster Energy.)

I've been playing around with Excadrill a little bit and find that it can honestly be a good substitute for Treads on a team, depending upon what you need/are afraid of. Both mons have shared perks, and they each have their own sets of perks over the other. Exca can be more of a threat immediately, whereas Treads can be more of a pain to break through or offer more general utility.
I like Excadrill more out of the two. Mainly because it is excellent as a Suicide Lead.
Gets Rocks up vs Hatterene, has Rapid Spin to clear hazards, gains a Speed boost and breaks Focus Sash from opposing Suicide Leads. Excadrill is pretty useful at countering Hazard Lead Deoxys-S. Some Lead Deoxys-S are running Tera Dark in favor of Tera Ghost to ignore Prankster Taunt from Lead Grimsnarl. Even if the Deoxys-S has Tera Ghost, it is a huge commitment since no one on its team will be able to abuse Tera anymore.
Mold Breaker is also a fantastic ability to have (pretty obvious but I think it should still be noted).

Excadrill revived Sand teams too, being a phenomenal Sweeper on the Archetype. Swords Dance+Earthquake+Iron Head+Rock Slide is very tricky to switch into, specially if the Excadrill is rocking Tera Ground, which can nuke things even when unboosted.

I think Iron Treads is alright with Booster Energy but I'm not a particular fan of that item on Treads due to it being one time use only. I fail to see another use for Iron Treads as I believe it's a worse Suicide Lead than Excadrill, and don't so see any other set it could run, so if anyone could enlighten me, I would appreciate it.
 
I'm trying to build balance teams, but every single time I end up with the same core of Gliscor/Vest Glowking/Great Tusk/Scarf Gholdengo, and with them + a Kingambit in the back I'm only left with one spot for a fast pivot or something. Is there any other defensive core that can actually handle all of the tier's threats? Ideally with recovery that isn't Lefties.
No real core ideas, but some mons that could work:
maybe the weesh feesh :alomomola: and maybe an intimidator? Sinistcha is decent (I guess) as well, and/or :garganacl:?
 
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As a few have stated, yeah I think the metagame is in a weirdly balanced state rn. It feels like, there's broken things of course yeah, but the broken things aren't textbook broken, moreso like "damn this guy's annoying as HELL" broken. It feels like it's broken checks broken, but in a way that brings everything into a well tied knot, in a chaotic sort of harmony. I want stuff to be gone, but I just can't muster the thoughts nor the replays to prove X is broken w/o being beat by something else.
d1Huh7.gif
 

658Greninja

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Second for me is Booster Energy. It's been a long time coming honestly. Before it was "manageable" when there were only really three viable Paradox mons to deal with. With DLC2 and the influx of new Paradox mons plus the unbanning of Roaring Moon it's really starting to show just how broken of an item it really is. We are allowing far too many Pokemon either get a free Choice Scarf or Life Orb with zero draw back in the tier, and I do believe that Booster Energy should be on everyone's radar when it comes to problematic elements in the Metagame. Pokemon like Darkrai should not be considered "slow" that is not a good thing. Banning one or two Paradox mons will not solves this issue this time either. Tiering action should be placed on this item it is too much.
Not a fan of this take. For one, most of the paradoxes are either bad or not broken by Booster. The only exception to this is Roaring Moon. The two paradoxes that were banned was cause of their broken stats/movepools.

When you take away Moon, Flutter, and Bundle. This is our list of abusers.

Great Tusk
Scream Tail
Brute Bonnet
Slither Wing
Sandy Shocks
Walking Wake
Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire
Iron Treads
Iron Hands
Iron Moth
Iron Jugulis
Iron Thorns
Iron Valiant
Iron Leaves
Iron Crown
Iron Boulder

Scream Tail and Iron Hands rarely ever runs Booster. Brute Bonnet rarely appears on non-Sun teams. Slither Wing, Iron Throrns, and Iron Leaves are unviable in the tier. So this leaves you with these.

Great Tusk
Sandy Shocks
Walking Wake
Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire
Iron Treads
Iron Jugulis
Iron Moth
Iron Valiant
Iron Crown
Iron Boulder

Sandy Shocks, Treads, and Jugulis are uncommon, no one argues that these three are broken with Booster Energy. Tusk uses Booster in HO builds, but no one calls it broken. Wake rarely finds itself on non-Sun builds. Even then, no one is complaining about its Booster Agility set to be too overbearing. Moth is mid as hell in this meta with more special walls and Volcarona returning. Having to run Dgleam just to hit all the dragons doesn’t help matters much. Iron Crown is a good Booster abuser, but it does have notable checks in Ting-Lu, Skeledirge, Ghold, Volcarona, etc.

So now you’re left with these four

Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire
Iron Valiant
Iron Boulder

Personally I don’t find any of them to be broken. Raging Bolt can be annoying, but a combination of Toxics from Glowking and Gliscor help since they both could tank a hit unless its a +1 Draco in Gliscor’s case. Other counterplay like Dirge, Clod, Drill, and faster offensive threats that resist Thunderclap are also options. Booster Gouging Fire on HO is handled by PhysD Ground types like Tusk or Gliscor. Also mons like Tera Water Dirge, ID Garg, and Dozo, to name a few. Same with Iron Boulder which shares similar checks to Gfire, except without Tera it is easily rkilled by Rilla and Gambit. Balloon Ghold easily counters it. You also have Skarm. Tusk also works since Boulder’s Psychic STAB is shit and it would like Edgequake + CC to hit Gambit/Ghold/Ting. Valiant is really good, but its 4MSS and stuff like Volcarona + Gliscor returning keeps it in check. So no, Booster isn’t breaking the meta.
 

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