Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]

Unrelated to the shitshow above, I swear to god showdown fucked up the accuracy calculations for sub 100% accurate moves when they added DLC2 mons. They probably didn't but good god dracos have been missing way more often than normal and I just want someone to either check and make sure or tell me I'm just getting unlucky (but be nice please)
it's weird, because i've actually been hitting inaccurate moves significantly more than i should be. i've actually been documenting it and i've been having about an 80% success rate at hitting hypnosis and over a 95% success rate with draco meteor. maybe i'm just hoarding all your luck or something
 
it's weird, because i've actually been hitting inaccurate moves significantly more than i should be. i've actually been documenting it and i've been having about an 80% success rate at hitting hypnosis and over a 95% success rate with draco meteor. maybe i'm just hoarding all your luck or something
Draco Meteor hitting 95% of the time definitely seems too close to 90% accuracy it has. Hypnosis hitting 80% of the time seems like luck or too small of a sample size.
 
solgaleo will not be unbanned. lugia will not be unbanned. skymin will especially not be unbanned. arguments to the contrary are largely based on theorymonning, memes, misunderstanding of why those mons are where they are, and occasionally willful ignorance. why are we continuing to discuss questions that have already been definitively answered and aren't at all relevant to ou? this is supposed to be a meta discussion thread, not a "haha drop this box legendary so it can carry me on ladder and all my favorite poketubers can make funny videos about it" discussion thread. i'd very much appreciate it if we put a permanent stop to the "drop box legendaries/skymin" argument because it's causing me actual psychological distress now. we can continue discussing urshifu-r in the future because there are actually a surprising number of new tools against it (even though i'd personally be against a retest of it, there are legitimate arguments for that one), but as for everything else, no, absolutely not
You know posts like that is exactly why people gloat over you when you're proved wrong about Darkrai. Calling any opinion you desagree "theorymonning, memes, misunderstanding of why those mons are where they are, and occasionally willful ignorance" or saying rubbish like "haha drop this box legendary so it can carry me on ladder and all my favorite poketubers can make funny videos about it" doesn't make you look clever or funny, just an huge ass. Those posts were made weeks before the damn DLC2 got released, do you think the council had a leak or a crystal ball to know about the movepool nerf of Lugia? I gave reasonable arguments about my stance, what you gave other than those strawman posts?
 
A91C31BF-5852-4F98-8783-00C2000F5BB6.jpeg


(Forgive me for the ancient meme)

I’m not opposed to a Gholdengo suspect, but I don’t think it’d be as productive at helping with the hazards problem this gen as people believe it would. Corviknight being more consistent at Defogging would certainly be nice, but that’s kind of the one major “viable” Defogger made significantly worse by Ghold. National Dex OU actually has Defoggers worth banning Gholdengo over, which is why Ghold’s ban makes sense in that format. I think to best make a case for a ban of Gholdengo, you’d have to argue about its impact on the metagame at large instead of just in terms of its impact on hazard removal, and while I think it would have been easier to make such a case in previous metas, it feels like a harder sell in DLC2 meta.
 
You know posts like that is exactly why people gloat over you when you're proved wrong about Darkrai. Calling any opinion you desagree "theorymonning, memes, misunderstanding of why those mons are where they are, and occasionally willful ignorance" or saying rubbish like "haha drop this box legendary so it can carry me on ladder and all my favorite poketubers can make funny videos about it" doesn't make you look clever or funny, just an huge ass. Those posts were made weeks before the damn DLC2 got released, do you think the council had a leak or a crystal ball to know about the movepool nerf of Lugia? I gave reasonable arguments about my stance, what you gave other than those strawman posts?
i don't refer to "any argument i disagree with" this way. i've recently been trying to get a better understanding of where people's opinions are coming from when i disagree with them (i can forgive you for not noticing, since it's kind of a common theme in my life for people to not notice when i try to improve, only when i fail). even that stupid bullshit that got posted a while back comparing rillaboom to chi-yu i treated with some respect. but there are some times where i can't see any sensible worldview that allows for an opinion to be held, and this is one of those times. as of right now, there are no "reasonable arguments" for retesting lugia. there are arguments you think are reasonable but which are ultimately theorymonning because there's no data to back them up. if you had provided some replays of custom-ruleset "ou + lugia" matches, and if those replays adequately showed that it could be dealt with, i'd be much more accepting of your points, but you came in here with absolutely zero hard data and are confidently asserting that lugia would totally be manageable. suspecting/dropping a box legendary is a big change from the status quo and should have some actual preliminary testing and results to justify considering

now can we please drop it, i've already voiced that this topic causes me stress and i don't want to continue it
 
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The suspect was pretty much promised, so unless council decides that it's better to go back on that (i don't mean judgementally, it was a promise made before we knew what dlc2 would look like), it's going to happen. I don't personally think it'll be productive, but I do think the people who wanted a test before and who were told to wait for dlc2 should be thrown a bone
As someone who is all for tera, I agree that now is probably a good time for the final suspect.
The previous suspect was kinda scuffed bc iirc Chien-pao was still demolishing the tier, but it's not like that rn.
There's nothing that's going to be majorly disruptive to the test, like additional major DLC.
 
View attachment 582753

(Forgive me for the ancient meme)

I’m not opposed to a Gholdengo suspect, but I don’t think it’d be as productive at helping with the hazards problem this gen as people believe it would. Corviknight being more consistent at Defogging would certainly be nice, but that’s kind of the one major “viable” Defogger made significantly worse by Ghold. National Dex OU actually has Defoggers worth banning Gholdengo over, which is why Ghold’s ban makes sense in that format. I think to best make a case for a ban of Gholdengo, you’d have to argue about its impact on the metagame at large instead of just in terms of its impact on hazard removal, and while I think it would have been easier to make such a case in previous metas, it feels like a harder sell in DLC2 meta.
While I mostly agree with you and I don't mind the Mozzarella man that much regarding defogging (though I'm sure you agree it does compound the issue), it being resistant to 2/3 of the typechart whilst being immune to status is certainly strong and it is a largely what threatens going over the edge. Hazards being a constant isn't anything particularly new. It is in fact quite ancient - back in gen 5 I didn't even run hazard control that often and just assumed SR would be kinda everywhere. If someone spent a bunch of turns setting up spikes on a passive mon... well... I have a few extra turns. By gen 9 we already kinda skip over the spending extra turns.

The issue I find with Noodles is precisely what many people love about the man - Gholdengo can do pretty much anything. Do you need to block defog? You got it. Specs? Got it. Setup wincon? Got it. Paraspam? Got it. Stallbreaking? Oh yeah, I dare say the best. And it's not even just versatile, it excels at all of those roles, and therefore you must account for it when teambuilding. Having to account for something when teambuilding is absolutely natural, but there is a point where it changes from "naturally affecting teambuilding" to "warping the metagame around it", and I'm fairly sure this line has been long-crossed, so much so that it has become his issue most people complain about.
 
Shaymin-S is one of three Pokemon(?) to ever receive a 100% ban rate throughout Smogon's entire history.
No one ever wants to deal with 60% flinch chance and a 100% chance to drop your special defense by 2 stages off of base 127 sp. attack.
Skymin has a hard counter in the form of Covert Cloak, which did not exist when he was originally banned.

I don't think Skymin would be any more oppressive than Darkrai. Both steamroll a large number of teams but are inconsistent overall.

FWIW I am in favor of no Skymin + no Darkrai. But if you like Darkrai in the meta, I fail to see how you could not want to at least try Skymin...
 
Skymin has a hard counter in the form of Covert Cloak, which did not exist when he was originally banned.

I don't think Skymin would be any more oppressive than Darkrai. Both steamroll a large number of teams but are inconsistent overall.

FWIW I am in favor of no Skymin + no Darkrai. But if you like Darkrai in the meta, I fail to see how you could not want to at least try Skymin...
Having to run an item to avoid 60% flinches and 80% SpDef drops is 100% overwhelming and breaking for the meta - it forces uncomfortable teambuilding in a restrictive way. Darkrai is balanced as it does not force this kind of teambuilding shenanigans, the two Pokemon are not even remotely comparable.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
I don't think Skymin would be any more oppressive than Darkrai. Both steamroll a large number of teams but are inconsistent overall.
Shaymin-Sky is consistent 60% of the time

But realistically, forcing teams to start running covert cloak is not healthy for the meta, we're definitely in one of the most healthy metas in a good while, and forcing teams to forego boots on bulky walls is not good.
 
Having to run an item to avoid 60% flinches and 80% SpDef drops is 100% overwhelming and breaking for the meta - it forces uncomfortable teambuilding in a restrictive way. Darkrai is balanced as it does not force this kind of teambuilding shenanigans, the two Pokemon are not even remotely comparable.
Covert Cloak is pretty easy to slot on a defensive team. Put it on a mon and now that's your Skymin + Garganacl answer. You just answered two playstyles with one item.

Offensive teams go Booster Energy and don't really care about having Covert Cloak regardless.

It would be no more oppressive than Darkrai, who wins games outright with hypnosis 60% of the time (but goes on losing streaks when it misses)
 
While I mostly agree with you and I don't mind the Mozzarella man that much regarding defogging (though I'm sure you agree it does compound the issue), it being resistant to 2/3 of the typechart whilst being immune to status is certainly strong and it is a largely what threatens going over the edge. Hazards being a constant isn't anything particularly new. It is in fact quite ancient - back in gen 5 I didn't even run hazard control that often and just assumed SR would be kinda everywhere. If someone spent a bunch of turns setting up spikes on a passive mon... well... I have a few extra turns. By gen 9 we already kinda skip over the spending extra turns.

The issue I find with Noodles is precisely what many people love about the man - Gholdengo can do pretty much anything. Do you need to block defog? You got it. Specs? Got it. Setup wincon? Got it. Paraspam? Got it. Stallbreaking? Oh yeah, I dare say the best. And it's not even just versatile, it excels at all of those roles, and therefore you must account for it when teambuilding. Having to account for something when teambuilding is absolutely natural, but there is a point where it changes from "naturally affecting teambuilding" to "warping the metagame around it", and I'm fairly sure this line has been long-crossed, so much so that it has become his issue most people complain about.
This is actually a much better argument in favor of its ban and pretty much exactly what I’m talking about in terms of where I think a pro-ban discussion of Gholdengo needs to go. Proving it has an unhealthy/meta warping effect on the metagame as a whole is a much better argument than the hazards one when that argument ignores the major elephant in the room that is the lack of Defog distribution.
 
Covert Cloak is pretty easy to slot on a defensive team. Put it on a mon and now that's your Skymin + Garganacl answer. You just answered two playstyles with one item.

Offensive teams go Booster Energy and don't really care about having Covert Cloak regardless.

It would be no more oppressive than Darkrai, who wins games outright with hypnosis 60% of the time (but goes on losing streaks when it misses)
Unfortunately you forget about HDB and Lefties, both REALLY GOOD items defensive mons would rather run, than an item that blocks secondary effects that only helps in like, one matchup, two counting garg.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
With the new additions from DLC2 and Tusk gaining Temper Fire to directly punish Gholdengo’s spinblock attempts, my opinion on Ghold has changed, I think its fairly balanced in the tier in an ironic twist.

While it is true that our hazard removal options haven’t changed much while the tier gained more Spike setters, I think Ghold itself is easier to exploit. Gfire and Volc easily prey on it, can eat Sballs and use it to setup. There’s also an abundance of fast offensive Dark types in the tier. The speedy NP sets just aren’t it, Ghold really wants the PhysD T-Wave sets or Balloon since it is otherwise less effective as a check to Zama, Boulder, Serp, and Iron Crown. Ghold. Ghold will always be an amazing pick, don’t tske this as me downplaying it. Ghold is still fantastic for its offensive/defensive utility, and ofc the broken asf Good as Gold. In the state the meta is in, Ghold isn’t making me go “wow this thing is bullshit” like it did in previous metas.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
People really didn’t learn their lesson with Terapagos did they?
A Pokemon with over 600 BST is only fine in OU if they have a massive serious flaw. You have 5 Pokemon over 600 BST that are legal.
:Zamazenta: has Howl and Iron Defense as its best boosting moves while having only 120 Atk.
:Kyurem: might be banned again pulling Baxcalibur shit to a lesser degree, but is an Ice type where a ton if its BST is used in one or other offense. Also no burn immunity.
:Hoopa-unbound: is strong but also has one of the worst defensive profiles in the game.
:Slaking: :Regigigas: And these 2 have the 2 worst abilities in the game.
:Lugia: :solgaleo: :shaymin-sky: :terapagos: all of these guys DO NOT have such major flaws.
I don't mean to take away from your point, but Shaymin-Sky does not have over 600 BST.

Covert Cloak is pretty easy to slot on a defensive team. Put it on a mon and now that's your Skymin + Garganacl answer. You just answered two playstyles with one item.

Offensive teams go Booster Energy and don't really care about having Covert Cloak regardless.

It would be no more oppressive than Darkrai, who wins games outright with hypnosis 60% of the time (but goes on losing streaks when it misses)
It's really not quite that simple. Defensive teams would much rather want to put either Leftovers or Heavy-Duty Boots on their mons, as they provide much better defensive utility overall. Also, in regards to Booster Energy Sweepers, I don't believe for a second that Choice Scarf Shaymin-Sky wouldn't be a thing.
 
it's weird, because i've actually been hitting inaccurate moves significantly more than i should be. i've actually been documenting it and i've been having about an 80% success rate at hitting hypnosis and over a 95% success rate with draco meteor. maybe i'm just hoarding all your luck or something
wtf give it back

Skymin has a hard counter in the form of Covert Cloak, which did not exist when he was originally banned.

I don't think Skymin would be any more oppressive than Darkrai. Both steamroll a large number of teams but are inconsistent overall.

FWIW I am in favor of no Skymin + no Darkrai. But if you like Darkrai in the meta, I fail to see how you could not want to at least try Skymin...
The moment covert cloak is an item you consider running on more pokemon than like, gholdengo on the same team as an h-zoro, there's a problem in your format. Covert Cloak is a good item that you never want to consider running.
 
You know posts like that is exactly why people gloat over you when you're proved wrong about Darkrai. Calling any opinion you desagree "theorymonning, memes, misunderstanding of why those mons are where they are, and occasionally willful ignorance" or saying rubbish like "haha drop this box legendary so it can carry me on ladder and all my favorite poketubers can make funny videos about it" doesn't make you look clever or funny, just an huge ass. Those posts were made weeks before the damn DLC2 got released, do you think the council had a leak or a crystal ball to know about the movepool nerf of Lugia? I gave reasonable arguments about my stance, what you gave other than those strawman posts?
Difference between Darkrai and Lugia/Solgaleo is that Darkrai is only has 600 BST and more importantly is pretty similar to Iron Valiant. So there was warrent Darkrai to drop. Closest thing to Lugia in OU is Cresselia which is not remotely as bulky nor has Multiscale.
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 229-270 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Cresselia: 402-474 (90.5 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Literally uninvested Lugia is tankier than invested Cresselia.
As for Solgaleo we don’t have much to go off of as not much is arguably similar to Solgaleo in OU. Can’t compare it to Mega Metagross or Iron Crown. And you what Solgaleo is comparable to? Terapagos. Yeah baby, Agility, Calm Mind, 2 special moves, and bonus no Toxic and no stat lowering.
And unless Shaymin-Sky gets severally nerfed like losing Air Slash or Serene Grace. Or ice starts resisting Grass/Flying on top of natural immunity to flinching because they’re cool like that. Or Freeze is now a Special burn and gets its own version of Will-o-wisp/Scald, so you can make it convert to land form. Until then that should never happen.

I don't mean to take away from your point, but Shaymin-Sky does not have over 600 BST.
Yeah I understand but I thought I’d mention it anyways because people want the Anti-christ in OU.
 
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If it's possible I think it would be nice to have temporary "flash ladders" that are only up for a week or two, or even just a few days, where we can test stuff like Skymin in OU and just see what that would look like separate from the main ladder. If it turns out to be a flaming disaster, whatever, at least we have some actual directly comparable examples. Obviously a ladder that's only up for a few days isn't enough to make a decision based on solely, but it could at least give the council some guidance as to whether or not a full suspect test is warranted or just a waste of time.

And no, for the record, I am not endorsing dropping Skymin. I would rather implement Skymin clause where anyone who ever uses Skymin in any format gets permanently HWID banned forever with no appeals.
 
If it's possible I think it would be nice to have temporary "flash ladders" that are only up for a week or two, or even just a few days, where we can test stuff like Skymin in OU and just see what that would look like separate from the main ladder. If it turns out to be a flaming disaster, whatever, at least we have some actual directly comparable examples. Obviously a ladder that's only up for a few days isn't enough to make a decision based on solely, but it could at least give the council some guidance as to whether or not a full suspect test is warranted or just a waste of time.

And no, for the record, I am not endorsing dropping Skymin. I would rather implement Skymin clause where anyone who ever uses Skymin in any format gets permanently HWID banned forever with no appeals.
unfortunately, this was already discussed for the tera suspect and denied for fear that it would split the playerbase and be too much work to maintain for not enough payoff or good data. i personally would like something like this to happen but i can see why it might not be worth the effort
 
I think a key difference between dropping darkrai and solgaleo/skymin/lugia is that darkrai was tested in OUPL and found to be mid as hell not unreasonable to test down even before the DLC revealed that we'd be playing fifty shades of hyper offense. None of these new mons have any precedent and testing them down without it is questionable at best and idiotic at worst. Also, as much as I want to see Morkal make a glalie set with inner focus, that's not a valid reason to drop a 60% flinch 127 speed monster into OU.
 

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