Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING SURVEY UP]

Archaludon is probably the pure embodiment of Gen 9's power creep. It's not broken by any means and there are definitely ways of dealing with it, but it snowballs so fast if you don't have an immediate counter.

Like that's just Gen 9 in general, shit goes from 0-100 real fast. This isn't even just Singles,VGC is experiencing this too. It's just way worse in Singles.

And I bet you that offense is going to get even crazier in Gen 10.
 
I created a team solely to counter Rain:

https://pokepast.es/99ef6482fdd1e90a

Water Absorb :Ogerpon-wellspring: + Unaware :Clodsire: are a nice double wall for :Barraskewda: and :Archaludon:, or :floatzel: and :kingdra:

Unaware :Clefable: with Cosmic Power for :Raging Bolt: and Tera Ground to wall :Archaludon:

:Rillaboom: to revenge kill :Barraskewda:

:choice specs: :kyurem: messes with :Raging Bolt:, :Archaludon:, :Iron Treads:, :Pelipper:, and :Barraskewda:. Tera Fairy makes :kyurem: immune to :raging bolt:’s Dragon Pulse and negates :barraskewda:’s Close Combat.

:Sableye: with Prankster to quickly burn :Barraskewda: or take away Rain. Tera Water to tank Liquidation better.
 
I created a team solely to counter Rain:

https://pokepast.es/99ef6482fdd1e90a

Water Absorb :Ogerpon-wellspring: + Unaware :Clodsire: are a nice double wall for :Barraskewda: and :Archaludon:, or :floatzel: and :kingdra:

Unaware :Clefable: with Cosmic Power for :Raging Bolt: and Tera Ground to wall :Archaludon:

:Rillaboom: to revenge kill :Barraskewda:

:choice specs: :kyurem: messes with :Raging Bolt:, :Archaludon:, :Iron Treads:, :Pelipper:, and :Barraskewda:. Tera Fairy makes :kyurem: immune to :raging bolt:’s Dragon Pulse and negates :barraskewda:’s Close Combat.

:Sableye: with Prankster to quickly burn :Barraskewda: or take away Rain. Tera Water to tank Liquidation better.
Sinistcha is also a good option as well, because it is one of the only mons that can even stand up to barra + arch, though you do need to be careful of pelipper.
 

Mur

If you're not first you're last
Gonna offer a bit of a more positive take in light of all the negativity surrounding the current meta :]

I currently enjoy the meta and I feel very alone here lol :'] There is still alotta room for creativity in the builder and executing in game still feels very proactive, despite the meta's extremism rn, which is the main tiering issue at the moment. I'm gonna continue this post by pointing the finger at Archaludon and why I think it's the perfect solution to ban to fix said extremism and why I think nothing else is really outright busted/unhealthy atm.

First of all, what I mean by "extremism" is that the meta currently revolves around HO, Rain HO, Sun HO, and Stall as evidenced by usage stats in both ladder and SPL. This is clearly a problem since everything within the spectrum of semi-stall to BO is getting squeezed into losing usage, thereby reducing some of the aforementioned creativity in the builder I mentioned before. However, to not contradict myself, I will admit that the middle spectrum of playstyles do have some tricks within their sleeves to handle the meta staples through some under utilized defensive options, such as G-weezing, Deo-d, and hippo. These are niche, and there are more of them, but I believe banning Archaludon will help open up more of these options thereby solving a lot of issues within the current meta.

Now on to Archaludon, I think nerfing rain through tiering action is the best route to go. Rain itself is no issue as without Archaludon its just the same as Pre-DLC2 and suffers a lot of the same issues against fatter balance/stall as well as BO's with a solid enough pivoting structure to mitigate the momentum generated by Barra+Treads+Peli. This goes out the window with Archaludon completely though, as now rain has a breaker with like what? 3 counters? Ting-lu with wish support, spdef hippo, and tera ghost CM Blissey are like the only 3 true counters I can think of off the top of my head and both lu and hippo still take a hefty chunk from stamina boosted press and draco respectively. This is making rain far too oppresive as it now went from being a matchup influenced HO response to something far more consistent. Sun, Stall, and regular HO do not have these qualities as Sun does not really have many strong Chlorophyll users to speed control or photosynthesis users that want the speed boost over attack unlike rain with swift swimmers. HO relies on Booster/sticky web/Prio to speed control and stall of course lacks the raw breaking power to threaten teams immediately like it always has. Bottom line all these playstyle have clear weaknesses while rain does not and Archaludon is the culprit here. Without Archaludon I can't see rain being as consistent as it is rn and "should" fall in line more with rain of pre-Indigo Disk due to the significantly reduced breaking potential.

Despite this, I still really enjoy the meta as it is :] Idk if it's just because I came back to playing again consistently since gen 6, but I'm happy rn. Tera is the best generational gimmick since megas imo and I don't really see any of the aforementioned mons like bolt/fire/deo-s/kyurem as an issue. I can understand Roaring Moon a bit and is definitely suspect worthy after Archaludon though we will cross that bridge(pun totally intended) when it comes.

I think Arch suspect -> survey -> Moon suspect is probably the way to go at the moment, though these are just the opinions of a washed up gen 6 player :]

Have a nice day playing mons and posting everybody :]
 
both lu and hippo still take a hefty chunk from stamina boosted press and draco respectively.
(0 def Lu actually takes basically nothing from the spA speed AV body press from Arch as long as stamina isn't active, 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 120-142 (23.3 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery)
 
Like that's just Gen 9 in general, shit goes from 0-100 real fast. This isn't even just Singles,VGC is experiencing this too. It's just way worse in Singles.
Eh, I'd argue that VGC is just being more so marred by threats with high power at the gate. Flutter Mane, Urshifu, and Ogerpon (particularly Hearthflame) don't need to start building up to their max potential to threaten teams, and those are the premier offensive presences at the moment. The closest any prominent strategies get to snowballing on the level of Arch in Rain in OU are the recent rise of Swords Dance on Ogerpon in order to take advantage of the more passive, Bulkier balance cores that've been springing up and support Gouging Fire sets running Howl.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
none of these are convincing arguments to me

especially since I thought most of those arguments you mentioned (like vert's and zone's) were pretty bad

i genuinely dont care if other mons are more broken or not, like i said, if you just randomly removed two threats it'd be done

you can say get rid of rain, but rain wouldn't be as hard if other threats did not also take up a lot of the builder; it really does not matter what we get rid of, we just have to get rid of something

by the point of voting, you can wish it was a different pokemon being suspected all you want, but IMO it's pretty obvious that axing kyurem would only have improved the tier by alleviating matchups

also god that "so many checks" argument is stupid; THOSE LITERALLY ONLY WORK ON OFFENSE. THEY ARE TEMPORARY CHECKS.

If your fucking "answer" requires Air Balloon, it works once. Your answer to a Pokemon literally being axed if it gets hit by a 2% damage U-Turn is not a strong answer.

Weavile is not an answer like wtf lmao, it is a mon that can help in the matchup but it isn't something you can continuously switch into

Air Balloon only works for Offense which can try and win first. But guess what, the tier should not try to balance itself just around Offense lmao
Here is the thing about non-Boots Kyu. If you have rocks up, Kyurem only has 4-5 opportunities to come in. On the team Kyurem often excels vs, they often have ways to scout or pivot around it such as Protect via Gliscor, Gking, and bulky steels that can eat an EP. So if they can’t keep hazards out, you could outlast Kyurem’s offensive power. DD Kyu is also easy to spot since it’s only on HO. The set I said broke Kyurem was the HDB set. You take away the ability to play around it with hazards. Kyurem also has the ability to run Scale Shot or Stone Edge to hit Volc and Bliss, limiting its counterplay.

Going back to the counterplay. Yes, people have cited Weavile as “counterplay”. While yes it can’t actually switch into Kyurem repeatedly, Weavile can make use of those switch-ins to force progress. It isn’t something you wanna give free turns to. Imo Gen 9 OU isn’t about being able to switch in and wall something, it is about getting value off that switch in. Which is exactly what Weavile and Slowking-G do.

I don’t think the voting results are the end of the world.

First of all there was a close vote, so it wouldn’t surprise me if Kyurem was given a second suspect, similarly to Mega Sableye in Gen 6 (For those who don’t know, yes it was suspected twice, but didn’t get banned til very late).

Secondly, we have much more time to resolve everything, more than a whole year, and we might resort to shorter suspects to get it over with quicker like with this one. I’m fine with addressing the issue of threat oversaturation one way or another. Personally I would do it in this order.

Archaludon > Moon > (Kyurem and Volc maybe)

The rest are not really problems to me rn.

Gambit and Raging Bolt have reliable counterplay and are good additions to the tier.

Valiant has a big 4MSS.

Deo-S is good but its role is not much different from other mons, in fact it may find itself outclassed in that role. (Samu as a suicide lead and Valiant as a mixed attacker)

Ghold is pretty exploitable due to the higher power level and larger selection of Dark types, plus it doesn’t appreciate the rise of Iron Treads.
 
You guys know what would solve our rain problem? Lugia. :totodiLUL:

ijs if Arch fails to get banned like kyurem we might start thinking about working the other direction :blobshrug: the vibe seems pretty deadlocked where I can unironically see nothing else getting banned this generation - lest we can one of the glues and is cascades.

But I think Arch has a real chance at seeing a ban. It is more dominant than kyurem for sure.
 
Maybe I am to pessimistic, but I do not believe any future suspect test will end up with 60% pro ban. Community seems tired of ridiculously high amount of bans this gen, and will vote no ban, even when something is clearly broken. (It never was not council fault, gamefreak are to blame)

Maybe it's time to start discussion about nerfing certain mechanic instated banning pokemon.
For example:
8 turns of sun lets you spam past paradoxes and break whole teams effortlessly if opponent lack another weather setter. The same goes for rain. Maybe, insted of suspect testing strongest abusers one by one we should look up to Dump and Heat rocks.

Light clay, buster energy, hazards/ Ghouldengo dynamic, and of course tera, there are plenty of things to discuss instead of trying to ban more pokemons when most suspect test will fail to do so. Just the waste of time and metagame will not get any better.
 
Maybe I am to pessimistic, but I do not believe any future suspect test will end up with 60% pro ban. Community seems tired of ridiculously high amount of bans this gen, and will vote no ban, even when something is clearly broken. (It never was not council fault, gamefreak are to blame)

Lht clay, buster energy, hazards/ Ghouldengo dynamic, and of course tera, there are plenty of things to discuss instead of trying to ban more pokemons when most suspect test will fail to do so. Just the waste of time and metagame will not get any better.
I can tell you right now that Archaludon clearly has more support to be banned than Kyurem does, so this doomposting is not productive. Archaludon is more restrictive to build against than Kyurem and trades more than favourably most of the time.
 
how does lugia do anything its literally walled on both stabs and electroshot farms it
252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Lugia: 80-95 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
calm mind earthpower air slash recover .. not quite farming when earthpower is a 3hko vs arch without a calm mind.

ijs

beats barra also...
 
252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Lugia: 80-95 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
calm mind earthpower air slash recover .. not quite farming when earthpower is a 3hko vs arch without a calm mind.

ijs

beats barra also...
Idk if u knew this but electro shot actually raises your spatk. And if you try to roost to keep multiscale up you just die to the inevitable snowball.

Edit: This is the dmg at +2 with no multiscale vs max hp max spdef
+2 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 320-378 (76.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also sick 3hko 0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 112-134 (30.1 - 36%) -- 40.5% chance to 3HKO
 
how does lugia do anything its literally walled on both stabs and electroshot farms it
Lugia can do many things, one of the main things it can do is just copy Terapagos's homework and be a bulky Calm Mind set up sweeper. I know the these threads aren't particularly organized, but people have gone over this several times before.
Idk if u knew this but electro shot actually raises your spatk. And if you try to roost to keep multiscale up you just die to the inevitable snowball.

Edit: This is the dmg at +2 with no multiscale vs max hp max spdef
+2 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 320-378 (76.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also sick 3hko 0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 112-134 (30.1 - 36%) -- 40.5% chance to 3HKO
So why exactly did the Lugia player let you use Electro Shot twice without setting up? If Lugia is in first, Lugia will be ahead in boosts thanks to the free turn + speed it has. If Lugia is the second one in, it can still calm mind up, and you know there isn't anyone forcing the Lugia player to send in Lugia while at a disadvantage state like with anything else like Kyogre or Zacian.
 
Idk if u knew this but electro shot actually raises your spatk. And if you try to roost to keep multiscale up you just die to the inevitable snowball.

Edit: This is the dmg at +2 with no multiscale vs max hp max spdef
+2 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 320-378 (76.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also sick 3hko 0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 112-134 (30.1 - 36%) -- 40.5% chance to 3HKO
yes but you calm mind each turn moving faster to negate the boost. u lose multiscale but still can boost and recover on it until earth power KO's arch.
 
252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 175-207 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 294-348 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just saying
except you are being facetious and everyone knows groudon is too strong while lugia was mentioned by enough people on the survey to be noted in the results- with some fair arguements. And at this time it -does- add something to the tier besides being free just to do it. I'm not proposing it immediately but if arch remains free it should be a thought.
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
except you are being facetious and everyone knows groudon is too strong while lugia was mentioned by enough people on the survey to be noted in the results- with some fair arguements. And at this time it -does- add something to the tier besides being free just to do it. I'm not proposing it immediately but if arch remains free it should be a thought.
lugia wouldn't add anything to the meta besides being the 15th check to great tusk. there's no point in a retest really
 
And we have gone back to proposing dropping ubers....
The OU metagame discussion everybody. Big round of applause.
I swear, I see it every other time I visit this thread. I expect when I check the thread out again in a couple days I'll see it again.

Anyhow, recent revelation for me is I am either REALLY bad at making weather teams or REALLY bad at playing with them. I know that sun and rain are strong archetypes, I've faced them, and it feels like they should be self explanatory for building and playing with. I just can't make em work.
 
thread has been literal garbage for weeks with few good posts sprinkled between. one line garbage jokes multiple times a page that get a pass. spare me the lecture.
You my friend are goated with the sauce keep fighting the good fight, I apologize for all my unbanning hatred I am actually on the drop uber train myself and will forever vouch for big Ho-Oh in the tier as well as Lugia.
 
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