Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING SURVEY UP]

Do yall use pivot moves or manual switching vs Arch? Finding that people seem to keep using voltturn and the like, thought wouldn't that just buff Body Press? If anyone can answer, thx.
When you see an arch, you should try to manually switch. I feel like people just think that u-turn is a free move most of the time, which it is, but we have had stuff like rocky helmet and rough skin for so long that I think it is just people being lazy when the click u-turn while an arch is on the opposing team. The thing with arch is that 'free' moves are usually its best entry point, so stuff like knock off which while bad for it, can allow it to get in.
I personally try to limit my usage of pivot moves until I know that they can't bring in arch, that's when I start using them. If you need to use pivot moves, then you should first not use them to condition your opponent that you are smart enough, and when they are conditioned, that's when you throw off the pivots. Rinse and repeat, and that's how you can pivot vs arch, though the game likely won't be long enough for more than two cycles to occur.
 
Actually, the goat (In a literal sense) cobalion CAN check archaludon, let me explain myself here

IMG_2572.gif


I rise, you fall (Cobalion) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 136 SpA / 120 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast/ Tera blast/x scissor/ Vacuum wave
- Flash Cannon

With assault vest, cobalion now has the bulk to take on archaludons electro shot and can use its great defensive typing to start dealing with special attackers itself, it could run leftovers but normal specially defensive cobalion is a set for another time

aura stab sphere hits mecha right where it hurts and the evs maximise potential to 2hko with aura sphere without ruining its special move tanking abilities

focus blast is incase extreme power is needed and can knock the fearsome beast right off its feet unless the match up mecha has tera fairy
not to mention any rare archaludon that outspeed this cobalion set will get trashed by aura sphere and nuked by focus blast because it sold its bulk for speed

volt switch can turn ausma’s biggest enemy into a free switch for a better dragon like gouging fire and hits pelipper for lethal damage

flash cannon is stab and threatens enamorus, valiant and iron cupcake Along with good neutral coverage

and don’t worry about stamina body press too much, by the time it gets the boost you will ko arch in a second hit

+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 174-206 (45 - 53.3%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
 
how do yall handle the nerves after a streak? gotta go without a loss for a dozen games, stress building up, very impressive to those who do make it
"Oh I'm on a streak cool-
+4 252+ 2 Fallen Tera Dark Kingambit:"

Uhhh, Idk about others but I kinda just play the same regardless, if I lose I lose. If I'm on a 17 LOSE streak then, someone is getting eviscerated by my mere gaze.
 
Very curious if you or Eeveeto can go into detail on Iron Boulder needing to go bc I don't even think it'll be OU by usage within a few months, it has so many downsides, I cannot conceive it ever being broken.
It’s currently the 22nd most used Pokemon, having 8.8% usage, and it’s the fastest available Paradox Pokemon too. No way it’s dropping UU. If Archaludon gets banned, it’ll be even better too as it can spam Mighty Cleave more.
 
You've been very emphatic about Deo-S still in February and this confuses me as well
While I don't want to speak for him, I have a D-Speed post coming later this week. I'll just summarize a little of it for now. You can run only a + speed nature and outspeed the entire unboosted tier with no speed EV investment. This leads to the potential for a 252 attack and 252 special attack mixed set that has great coverage and outspeeds the entire unboosted tier.

Somebody, I forget who it was, mentioned that D-Speed was only good against offense. But I found in testing that the mixed set can completely destroy stall. The best coverage is Psycho Boost, Ice beam, Knock Off, and Superpower on a Life Orb. Tera Dark let's you spam more Knock Offs and live a Gambit Sucker Punch in most cases.

The only things I could find that can safely switch into it are fairy type special walls, which are basically just Clefable and Primarina, and possibly a Steel type that doesn't lose to Knock Off or Superpower. And the Clefable has to be specially defensive. The defensive set still takes 66.2-78.% from Psycho Boost, which can be a problem if it is chipped at all. Then there is Corviknight. Corv takes about 30% or so from Ice Beam, Psycho Boost, and Superpower. But it has the recovery to maybe outlast that, particularly with the stat drops and if you are being chipped with Life Orb and maybe even a Rocky Helmet hit or two.

Anyway, those are the main 3 that work against this set. Even then, there is counterplay coverage you could run like Thunderbolt, Poison Jab, Psyshock, or just straight Tera Blast if your counters became too common. But you do sacrifice important coverage to do so.

Then there is Arch. I didn't really focus much on Arch because I'm assuming it will be banned soon. But it should be noted that it only works under certain conditions. Arch will lose about 40% to Superpower, but maybe less if it has Stamina boosts up. An Arch that is uninvested in special defense will lose roughly 40%-45% from Ice Beam and 45-53% from Psychoboost, but less if it is wearing Assault Vest and/or invested in Special Defense. Closer to 30% from the special moves with Assault Vest and no further investment in special bulk. And it can also get Knocked Off.

So what this means is that, if Arch switches into a move from this set, there is a very real chance it could lose 80%-90% of its HP before it can move. And that doesn't count hazards or preexisting chip. But it depends on the set. An established Arch or one with a clean switch is more likely to be ok.

About other walls... None of them really work.

Incineroar and Ting Lu can also switch in, but neither one really appreciates the roughly 50% chip from Superpower. Ting Lu also loses another quarter or so to Ice Beam, so it can't be chipped much at all to switch into the set. I don't really consider Ting Lu to be an appropriate switch in to this set for that reason. Incin is a very niche option that requires not eating a superpower very often.

About Glowking. A standard pivot Glowking takes between 40%-50% for both Knock Off or Psycho Boost. And if Glowking is invested in more defense or special defense, the other would do more damage accordingly. Switching into either of those moves can get it killed by the other. Furthermore, a Tera Dark Knock Off does more like 67%-79%. Glowking is not really a safe switch in.

Basically, not much can switch into this mon and nothing unboosted can outspeed it. I feel like it is less obvious at the moment because it isn't a mon that is going to single handedly sweep an opposing team. The pressure on the teambuilder is likely very high, though.
 
While I don't want to speak for him, I have a speed post coming later this week. I'll just summarize a little of it for now. You can run only a + speed nature and outspeed the entire unboosted tier with no speed EV investment. This leads to the potential for a 252 attack and 252 special attack mixed set that has great coverage and outspeeds the entire unboosted tier.

Somebody, I forget who it was, mentioned that D-Speed was only good against offense. But I found in testing that the mixed set can completely destroy stall. The best coverage is Psychoboost, Ice beam, Knock Off, and Superpower. Tera Dark let's you spam more Knock Offs and live a Gambit Sucker Punch is most cases.

The only things I could find that can safely switch into it are fairy type special walls, which are basically just Clefable and Primarina, and possibly a Steel type that doesn't lose to Knock Off or Superpower. And the Clefable has to be specially defensive. The defensive set still takes 66.2-78.% from Psycho Boost, which can be a problem if it is chipped at all. Then there is Corviknight. Corv takes about 30% or so from Ice Beam, Psycho Boost, and Superpower. But it has the recovery to maybe outlast that, particularly with the stat drops and if you are being chipped with Life Orb and maybe even a Rocky Helmet hit or two.

Anyway, those are the main 3 that work against this set. Even then, there is counterplay coverage you could run like Thunderbolt, Poison Jab, Psyshock, or just straight Tera Blast if your counters became too common. But you do sacrifice important coverage to do so.

Then there is Arch. I didn't really focus much on Arch because I'm assuming it will be banned soon. But it should be noted that it only works under certain conditions. Arch will lose about 40% to Superpower, but maybe less if it has Stamina boosts up. An Arch that is uninvested in special defense will lose roughly 40%-45% from Ice Beam and 45-53% from Psychoboost, but less if it is wearing Assault Vest and/or invested in Special Defense. Closer to 30% from the special moves with Assault Vest and no further investment in special bulk. And it can also get Knocked Off.

So what this means is that, if Arch switches into a move from this set, there is a very real chance it could lose 80%-90% of its HP before it can move. And that doesn't count hazards or preexisting chip. But it depends on the set. An established Arch or one with a clean switch is more likely to be ok.

About other walls... None of them really work.

Incineroar and Ting Lu can also switch in, but neither one really appreciates the roughly 50% chip from Superpower. Ting Lu also loses another quarter or so to Ice Beam, so it can't be chipped much at all to switch into the set. I don't really consider Ting Lu to be an appropriate switch in to this set for that reason. Incin is a very niche option that requires not eating a superpower very often.

About Glowking. A standard pivot Glowking takes between 40%-50% for both Knock Off or Psycho Boost. And if Glowking is invested in more defense or special defense, the other would do more damage accordingly. Switching into either of those moves can get it killed by the other. Furthermore, a Tera Dark Knock Off does more like 67%-79%. Glowking is not really a safe switch in.

Basically, not much can switch into this mon and nothing unboosted can outspeed it. I feel like it is less obvious at the moment because it isn't a mon that is going to single handedly sweep an opposing team. The pressure on the teambuilder is likely very high, though.
I feel like a reason why Offensive Deo-S isn't used as much/isn't too powerful is because you have a big opportunity cost when using it. You have to give up on the best offensive lead in the game that can almost guarentee it will do two things, whereas hamurott and glimmora can potentially not get anything done due to their speed stats. The only way the opponent can deny Deo-S doing two things and only one is by using a strong mon with priority, which is highly abusable by the Deo-S user as if the opponent predicts this and goes to something that beats the priority user, they could give Deo-S an opportunity to do two things.
TLDR, lead Deo-S is the most consistent lead and can make people play in predictable ways, which can be abused. At least from my experience.
 

veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Contributor to Smogon
8.8% usage, and it’s the fastest available Paradox Pokemon
Boulders usage had an extreme decline already (over 18% to 8%) and while it's the fastest paradox, pokemon like Kingambit, Rillaboom, Dragonite and Raging Bolt can all outspeed it with priority while also being stronger, bulkier and providing extra utility. Boulder is only good against HO without priority moves, which is just a bad HO.
 
so, genuinely, what is the argument for keeping tera? i know, i know, its a generational mechanic and its fun to play with, so it makes sense the majority is not in favour of outright banning it, but that doesnt mean they think its healthy. i have seen many arguments on why tera is unhealthy and uncompetitive, and they all make sense to me, but the single argument ive seen for tera being healthy is "it helps deal with the broken threats of the current tier", which is a non-reason (broken checks broken, all that). i know most people are supportive of tera, and the council (probably) isnt gonna act on it without community support, but id like to at least know a valid, competitive-minded reason on how tera is healthy for the game.
For me part of the question comes down to at what point Tera's effect on the Metagame is unhealthy vs taking things in a direction people are not fond of. Even with how Volatile several Tera match-ups can be I don't feel right calling it uncompetitive the way I would many of our suspected/banned Pokemon, in that simply using Tera does not make a match easier to win without employing equal or greater skill than an opponent not employing it as was the case with things like Flutter Mane, DLC1 Gliscor, or Baxcalibur. In a sense I might call it my version of the power creep talk some have had about Gen 9's new mon design: There comes a point where it might just be the general power and landscape of things has grown past the average or mindset we had in previous gens, though it does stick out here for happening very rapidly. At the same time one could look at Gen 3-4 compared to 5 and see a very marked difference in the landscape of their respective OUs, certainly so if widening the gap to compare something like 4 to 7-8.

I bring this up because obviously determining a baseline for what we can maintain as a "healthy" metagame philosophy is Point 0 for talking about this idea. There's also the matter of Tera being an unhealthy mechanic at large being a tricky case to prove because it has interactions some consider healthy alongside the controversial points.

To make a likely-flawed-in-accuracy comparison that I hope still demonstrates my point, consider an element like Tyranitar's Sand Stream in Gen 3. Permanent Sand in that environment fundamentally changes the way a very large amount of Pokemon and strategies function: essentially mandating Leftovers for Pokemon to break even on their health turn-to-turn; adding chip damage that directly favors certain types (Flygon having massively higher relative-longevity, Skarmory's already massive defenses lasting even longer than contemporaries for two examples). The first and most obvious difference in this comparison is that Sand's dominance heavily stems from Tyranitar being an already-good mon for that environment that brings the Sand amongst traits as long as it's on one of the two teams, but I want to at least bring mention to this as an example of how a force or mechanic (rather than just a mon as with GSC Snorlax) can wildly influence and in-some-ways centralize a metagame while being considered a welcome or at least not-banworthy factor.

This is NOT me advocating the fallacy of "a Tera-less Meta wouldn't be good so why bother?" to be clear, but that I have trouble seeing where the line (for myself or others) is between "this Meta is actively unhealthy and less skill based than it should be" and "this Meta still reasonably rewards the more skilled player with victory the majority of the time, I just do not personally like the games" that usually dictates when action needs to take place with something like a mechanic (not just generational but also things like Sleep, Weather, Terrains, etc) compared to singular mons who more visibly strain or warp team building around them.
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Former Other Tournament Circuit Champion
World Defender
What I don't understand is

If we have the same amount of mons allowed in OU bar terapagos since the beginning of DLC2

Why the hell was the sentiment back then hey wow nothing seems too powerful this seems like a nice meta

And all of a sudden it's ohhh weee arch rain huwts me

Like either you're acknowledging that strategies have been found to be dominating, which then implies that with the pass of time new strategies will rise, and arch rain is just the team of the week

Or you're being completely disingenuous in your judgment of how things are going. Again, there has literally been no major change in the tier since DLC2 dropped. I was running arch rain by day one. it just happens to be really optimized and effective at this point in time. Next week is gonna be the triple dino sun team, the week after that its gonna be Gravity Lando-T for some reason, the other week is gonna be SneasBoom all over again... trends change, bros.
Gonna respond to this sentiment quickly because it's something I find relevant. The short answer to this is that most of the claims that the meta was good happened really early (like the first week) and in that time of the meta early judgements can be shaped by new toy syndrome. It was easier to build when the strongest new mons weren't seen as often/weren't fully explored while people were busy trying out Iron Crown/Iron Boulder/Hypnoless Darkrai etc. Once we started to see the meta in a competitive setting from the subsequent weeks in OUPL and other tours it became pretty clear that the meta would take some work to fix.

I've talked to a lot of players about the metagame over the last few weeks, and pretty much all of them agree that the meta could be much better, though they disagree on which mons should be addressed and what order they should be addressed in. In a situation like this, the logical thing to do as a council is to address elements that people already have well-formed opinions on. Kyurem was suspected because it had clear high levels of support from the surveys where other mons didn't, and Archaludon was suspected because rain developed into a top playstyle very early into the meta's life cycle (the rain I put on samples was built 2 days after the mons dropped on Showdown) and stayed there with consistent tournament success for several weeks.

People often say that metagames "need time" to adapt around fringe playstyles, but the truth is that the process for figuring out whether these playstyles will sink or swim doesn't actually take very long. We've seen multiple examples of this throughout the gen, here's some of those off the top of my head:

1) Walking Wake was put to a suspect less than a week after its release - in my circles, by the time a week had passed most people I talked to said that Wake was probably not broken because Sun in general still had issues as a playstyle. By the time two weeks had passed there was very clear statistical evidence to support this opinion, as Wake had a terrible winrate during its debut week of SPL. After three weeks of Wake being in the meta, the suspect ended with Walking Wake comfortably staying in the tier.

2) Ursaluna drew a lot of attention when it was first released, mostly drawing from its power on Trick Room and Screens builds. It was even voted on by the council at the end of the first week (along with Light Clay) and the council members broadly thought that it was too early to be looking at a mon based off of its prowess on fringe playstyles. Within the next couple of weeks screens dropped off the map, people realised that TR was still bad (shocker), and Ursaluna completely dropped out of any ban discussion (and later dropped to UU).

3) At the start of DLC 1, the kind overlords at gamefreak decided to return Rillaboom's Grassy Glide back to him, catapulting Grassy Terrain styles into relevance. Grassy Terrain continued to be a top style all the way through SCL 3, even with some of its most common picks getting banned. It took until Week 8 of SCL (more than two months into the metagame) for us to realise that Grassy Terrain's continued dominance was enough of a problem in and of itself to warrant action on Sneasler, which in hindsight was the biggest mistake that we made in DLC 1. In the case of RillaSneas, we let a broken playstyle fester in the metagame for months, long past the normal period needed to adapt to new playstyles, and Roaring Moon + Gliscor got thrown under the bus when there was plenty of evidence in the usage rates and winrates of SCL to make a strong case for Sneasler being the most pressing candidate after Bloodmoon.

The way I see it, addressing rain when it's been borderline broken for a month and a half, with it now having statistics to back it up is far from a hasty decision. Tournament players knew that rain was a big threat going into the start of the tournament, they did their best to prepare for the metagame, and they (mostly) lost when playing against rain. Typically this type of thing only happens when the playstyle is overpowered - it is notoriously hard for any mon to achieve decent usage and high winrate for multiple consecutive weeks in these tours, as the biggest threats of previous weeks stick in players' minds when they're building for their next game. The amount of viable rains is also much smaller than say, the amount of potentially viable Gouging Fire teams as well, so it requires less time to reach a point where people can accurately evaluate whether they want to see Archaludon gone. In my opinion this suspect was definitely the best direction to take, given the feedback I've received about the meta. If anything it allows us to address known issues in a metagame that I've heard a lot of complaints about, without rushing into more complicated discussions about other mons where people are still changing their minds fairly often.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
"Oh I'm on a streak cool-
+4 252+ 2 Fallen Tera Dark Kingambit:"

Uhhh, Idk about others but I kinda just play the same regardless, if I lose I lose. If I'm on a 17 LOSE streak then, someone is getting eviscerated by my mere gaze.
I WAS THERE
I had the gambit, and i fucking lost
Then again, I did immediately regret CC'ing skewda into a T-Fairy mon

Edit: and now that the fucking randomness of LOW LADDER SCUM has given me NO GOOD OPTION IN BATTLE more than tWiCe In TwO hOuRs, I cant even play anymore.
 
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I've come to the conclusion that 30 bans is too little. In no particluar order, the following pokemon are a bit problematic at best and need to go asap at worst: kingambit, gholdengo, roaring moon, raging bolt, volcarona, archaludon, iron valiant, gouging fire, iron boulder, gliscor, deoxys-speed, waterpon, and zamazenta. Note that some of these hinge entirely on other things being banned but I genuinely think that excising the tier and starting from scratch after a nuclear banning would benefit the tier greatly.
This might be more to your liking: https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/underused.752/
 
If you don't have a tusk, valiant, zamazenta, dondozo or skarmory, yeah it is pretty broken. Like I thought it was maybe alright but while I was getting requirements with my three grasses team which included gambit on it, my gambit has swept multiple games. There are probs other mons that check gambit, but you need to keep them at full health, and you can see why it is bs.
Yeah I find if I can chip down Skarmory with another physical Mon, like max attack Tusk with CC, Gambit can win in the end game with the right sequencing. it seems the voters cherish BS pokemon though. I bet Arch stays.
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
In no particluar order, the following pokemon are a bit problematic at best and need to go asap at worst: kingambit, gholdengo, roaring moon, raging bolt, volcarona, archaludon, iron valiant, gouging fire, iron boulder, gliscor, deoxys-speed, waterpon, and zamazenta.
I agree with the first 6 but iron valiant isn't broken and tbh never was. gouging fire is also a reasonable ban/suspect target but everything after that (besides maybe gliscor) is lol
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
Yeah I find if I can chip down Skarmory with another physical Mon, like max attack Tusk with CC, Gambit can win in the end game with the right sequencing. it seems the voters cherish BS pokemon though. I bet Arch stays.
I disagree, scrolling through the ID reqs page, a good majority of the posts display some intent to vote ban on Arch. Gambit's also lowkey not broken imo, but that's just me.

To talk about something else, I've been having a ton of success using Curse Garg on Grassy Terrain:

:sv/garganacl:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Curse
- Salt Cure
- Protect
- Recover

Curse lowering your speed is lowkey a godsend, because it means you can Salt Cure on Gking and hit whatever is switching in after Chilly Reception. Most people assume that it's just a free switchin to something, but Garganacl being slower causes huge damage. This mon also pretty much seldom beats stall 1v1, it's kinda crazy. It also fits super well against both rain and sun builds, with Salt Cure dealing a ton to water/steel types on rain, while being able to stall out weather turns with Protect. Probably also one of the only real Gouging Fire checks.
 
I agree with the first 6 but iron valiant isn't broken and tbh never was. gouging fire is also a reasonable ban/suspect target but everything after that (besides maybe gliscor) is lol
i see the first 6 but near the end you lose me. boulder/gliscor/deo-s/waterpon/zama seem fine right now
 
I disagree, scrolling through the ID reqs page, a good majority of the posts display some intent to vote ban on Arch. Gambit's also lowkey not broken imo, but that's just me.

To talk about something else, I've been having a ton of success using Curse Garg on Grassy Terrain:

:sv/garganacl:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Curse
- Salt Cure
- Protect
- Recover

Curse lowering your speed is lowkey a godsend, because it means you can Salt Cure on Gking and hit whatever is switching in after Chilly Reception. Most people assume that it's just a free switchin to something, but Garganacl being slower causes huge damage. This mon also pretty much seldom beats stall 1v1, it's kinda crazy. It also fits super well against both rain and sun builds, with Salt Cure dealing a ton to water/steel types on rain, while being able to stall out weather turns with Protect. Probably also one of the only real Gouging Fire checks.
People were saying that about Kyu and it stayed.
Gambit may not be broken but I also think our view of the meta is warped because of how offensive it is.
 
People were saying that about Kyu and it stayed.
Gambit may not be broken but I also think our view of the meta is warped because of how offensive it is.
Archaludon clearly has more support for a ban than Kyurem. Even most stall players are planning to vote ban on Archaludon, which wasn't the case with Kyurem.
 
Archaludon clearly has more support for a ban than Kyurem. Even most stall players are planning to vote ban on Archaludon, which wasn't the case with Kyurem.
That would be great, Im just being cautiously pessimistic. Doesn’t stall beat Archaludon? Why would stall players vote ban on Arch and not Kyu?
 
That would be great, Im just being cautiously pessimistic. Doesn’t stall beat Archaludon? Why would stall players vote ban on Arch and not Kyu?
Because Archaludon is more restrictive to build against, forcing stall to run Clodsire, which is a very exploitable mon, and Tera Ghost Blissey. It pigeonholes stall into that sort of build, which a good chunk of stall players don't enjoy doing.
 
I know about FEAR being a meme strat that is supposed to catch new players off guard but what the hell is this team's gameplan even? They forfeited as soon as what I assume things not going according to a script (3 turns in). Did some youtuber use this or something?
 

Attachments

I feel like a reason why Offensive Deo-S isn't used as much/isn't too powerful is because you have a big opportunity cost when using it. You have to give up on the best offensive lead in the game that can almost guarentee it will do two things, whereas hamurott and glimmora can potentially not get anything done due to their speed stats. The only way the opponent can deny Deo-S doing two things and only one is by using a strong mon with priority, which is highly abusable by the Deo-S user as if the opponent predicts this and goes to something that beats the priority user, they could give Deo-S an opportunity to do two things.
TLDR, lead Deo-S is the most consistent lead and can make people play in predictable ways, which can be abused. At least from my experience.
I kind of find this problematic, though. I don't think the classic lead sets from D-Speed are broken or anything. However, combined with having to account for the mixed offensive set it is maybe too much to account for everything it can do. You could get up more screens, additional spikes that never leave the field, or extra hole punching attacks off just based on the opponent needing to be prepared for different sets. And the most pressure comes from how one of those sets is, in theory, almost impossible to actually switch into.

I'm also not sure what the opportunity cost is in a meta that is extremely offensive. D-Speed can get rid of most of the checks for something else on your team to then take advantage of. If people figure out how to build around that, it might become more problematic than it was initially realized.

On the other hand, it is perhaps possible that a skilled player could learn to predict the set based on the team composition or the Life Orb chip. But then there are also a lot of potential counter-counterplay options you can run. Personally, it just seems unrealistic to account for everything.
 
I kind of find this problematic, though. I don't think the classic lead sets from D-Speed are broken or anything. However, combined with having to account for the mixed offensive set it is maybe too much to account for everything it can do. You could get up more screens, additional spikes that never leave the field, or extra hole punching attacks off just based on the opponent needing to be prepared for different sets. And the most pressure comes from how one of those sets is, in theory, almost impossible to actually switch into.

I'm also not sure what the opportunity cost is in a meta that is extremely offensive. D-Speed can get rid of most of the checks for something else on your team to then take advantage of. If people figure out how to build around that, it might become more problematic than it was initially realized.

On the other hand, it is perhaps possible that a skilled player could learn to predict the set based on the team composition or the Life Orb chip. But then there are also a lot of potential counter-counterplay options you can run. Personally, it just seems unrealistic to account for everything.
Personally, if the Deo-S player has something like a Glimmora or Hamurott, that is most definetely an offensive set. However, if they do not have a spiker/lead mon, then it is most likely a lead Deo-S set. On its own, each Deo-S set is managable, if you were unable to predict what its sets would be then that would be problematic. However, because Deo-S is extremely predictable in what it is doing from team comp, that makes it much more managable.
Maybe down the line when somebody figures out a set that can effectively do both things/look like one set but be another, then that could be a problem, but right now I think there are bigger fish to fry.
 
I realize that this might get lost in the shuffle of the discussion about the recent ban, but I just wanted say that one of the sample teams is invalid. I'm not sure if its a problem with the team or showdown, but the rain team by njnp is invalid on PS. I wanted to try out the rain team since I haven't been laddering but want to see what all the fuss is about, however the Raging Bolt apparently needs to have 20 Attack IVs even though the one on the pokepaste has 0 IVs. I know its minor and I'm not sure if this is the place to bring it up but I figured I should at least bring it up.
 
That would be great, Im just being cautiously pessimistic. Doesn’t stall beat Archaludon? Why would stall players vote ban on Arch and not Kyu?
In addition to what Avira said, Stall doesn't really have an issue w Kyurem, Dozo or Blissey together beat every variant, the best is Rock Slide DD Freeze Dry Earth Power Kyurem but even that crazy set just pops a Tera on Clod or Dozo if it doesn't outright lose to seismic toss
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
now about FEAR being a meme strat that is supposed to catch new players off guard but what the hell is this team's gameplan even? They forfeited as soon as what I assume things not going according to a script (3 turns in). Did some youtuber use this or something?
It looks to me like a endure salac berry reversal Hitmonlee being one strat and the other is a Hippowdon+Set-up BodyPress skarm or something like that,
It's interesting, as it looks like two different strats that don't synergize together
 

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