Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING SURVEY UP]

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor
I've personally always been in the No Tera Blast ban camp, I've found that it's usage is incredibly risky on the majority of mons due to necessitating commitment in the teambuilder, and essentially having a full move as a dead slot if your Pokemon is not the target pick for your Tera during a game.

The few cases where I think there's an argument for it being broken are on Pokemon that can either:

A) Afford to be a dedicated Tera during a game, due to their sheer strength (Ex: Kingambit, Volcarona, DD Kyurem)

B) Can Afford to have a dead moveslot (Enamorus, Kingambit and kind of Iron Moth)

Now I was interested in seeing the stats behind Tera Blast usage, and see which users of Tera Blast where the most common among the Pokemon ranked on the current VR, so here's some stats (I included Comfey due to it's considerable usage on both ladder and the Tournament scene), including every OU VR'd Pokemon with Tera Blast usage above 10%:

:polteageist:95.81%
:sandy_shocks:72.70%
:serperior:63.65%
:moltres-galar:63.35%
:volcarona:61.29%
:enamorus:55.95%
:comfey:55.12%
:iron_moth:51.34%
:thundurus-therian:49.04%
:hydrapple:42.89%
:cresselia:21.17%
:kyurem:20.14%
:lilligant-hisui:20.06%
:skeledirge:12.06%

:polteageist:93.69%
:sandy_shocks:89.72%
:thundurus-therian:83.57%
:hydrapple:71.21%
:comfey:68.83%
:iron_moth:67.82%
:volcarona:67.36%
:enamorus:52.85%
:cresselia:50.77%
:serperior:50.07%
:moltres-galar:36.71%
:kyurem:21.88%
:indeedee:10.19%

There was one surprise to me, the lack of :kingambit:
Kingambit hasn't seen Tera Blast be a significant part of it's moveset at all in the DLC2 meta, which was interesting to me. Now there may certainly be some discrepancy between it's usage on ladder and it's usage in Tournament, but I certainly expected Tera Blast to make up for at least 10% of it's sets. Turns out it's coverage between Sucker Punch/Kowtow+Iron Head+Low Kick is pretty damn good, it rarely needs the additional coverage Tera Blast provides, and the neutrality that Tera Fairy provides or the immunity that Tera Flying provides is often enough for Kingambit to beat Great Tusk (the main mon it needs to Tera out of).

Now I think the main Tera Blast users can be distributed into three main categories:

1. Pokemon that need additional coverage to succeed:
:polteageist:, :thundurus-therian:, :comfey:, :volcarona:, :cresselia:, :serperior:, :moltres-galar:, DD :kyurem:

These pokemon all suffer greatly without the additional coverage, or are just full out outclassed by other mons. This is mostly filled with Pokemon that setup as a win condition or just for breaking power. Pokemon like :polteageist:, :comfey: and :cresselia: typically use Tera Blast Fighting, due to it's favorable matchup into steel types, which multiple of them struggle to break. :moltres-galar: typically slots in Tera Fairy, to become a bulky double dance sweeper. :kyurem: and :serperior: both slot in Tera Fire or Ground, to gain super effective stab against steel types, which both struggle against.

:volcarona: is the true wild card here, it's tera blast can be a wide range of types, between ground, water, fairy and even dragon. I'd argue this is outright the most problematic user of Tera Blast. Without Tera Blast it's fairly balanced due to it's fairly bad matchup into most fire types like :gouging_fire:, :heatran:, :skeledirge:. In combination with Quiver Dance and Volcarona's stats, it could very much be too much for the metagame. I however don't believe this is the fault of Tera Blast, but simply due to Volcarona's unique combination of characteristics.

The one exception to the "setup sweeper" mantle is :thundurus-therian:, which mainly uses Tera Blast since Game Freak didn't give it flying stab :(. It becomes an especially effective breaker thanks to Tera Blast Flying.

2. Pokemon that typically can afford a dead slot
:sandy_shocks:, :hydrapple:, :iron_moth:, :indeedee:, :enamorus:

:sandy_shocks: and :indeedee: fill kind of a similar role. both being leads for specific archetypes, which cover Tera Blast just in case they think they can nab a kill on defensive typings that cover them extremely well, Shocks running Tera Blast Ice to nail ground types, while Indeedee typically slots Tera Blast Fighting to OHKO Kingambit. These Pokemon don't typically need a 4th moveslot, as they act as either hazard leads that are expected to die quickly, or spawn Psychic Terrain as essentially their only job.

:iron_moth: is an interesting one because unlike Volcarona, Iron Moth has amazing coverage. When they run Tera Blast, it's mainly for Tera Blast Water or Ground, to mainly hit :clodsire: and :skeledirge: super effectively, it's primary checks. There's an argument to be made that this could also slot into category 1, but these two Pokemon rarely appear, and Iron Moth certainly doesn't need the additional coverage for success.

:hydrapple: this one's pretty much only here because of that one stall team with Tera Blast Ice. Hydrapple doesn't really need to have Tera Blast Ice, it's pretty much just Teraing in select matchups where the team needs an ice resist (mainly vs Weavile and Meow). Tera Blast is kind of just a cherry on top because between Giga Drain, Body Press and Recover, it might as well slot in Tera Blast Ice due to it's synergy with the rest of it's offensive moves.

:enamorus: will be explained in the next section, but between Moonblast, Earth Power and Healing Wish, it hardly ever needs it's 4 slot unless it wants to go for a sweep.

3. Stellar users

:enamorus:, :serperior:

I'd only really argue enamorus should be here, because I think Serperior's other tera types vastly outclass Stellar. Enamorus is the only potential problematic user of Tera Blast Stellar, due to it's unresisted option that continuously boosts it's special attack. Good speed control or priority is needed to outplay it, which I think the metagame generally has, between :iron_boulder:, :raging_bolt:, :weavile:, :barraskewda: and :iron_moth:, as well as the multiple defensive Pokemon that have a fairly good matchup against it when locked into Tera Blast, such as :clodsire:, :slowking-galar:, :skeledirge:, :gholdengo: and :ting-lu:.

Now I think the most popular Tera Blast users are overwhelmingly balanced, the majority of them aren't broken or game breaking and are definitely manageable in the current metagame. Where this changes however is with 4 specific Pokemon that have the potential to be broken with it, :volcarona:, :kyurem:, :kingambit:, :enamorus:. Now in my personal opinion, all of these mons should be looked into individually over a Tera Blast ban, I think Tera Blast is a great addition that offers many pokemon that need additional coverage with extra options, while having a noticeable tradeoff in a dead moveslot if the user itself does not Tera.

This was an interesting look into Tera Blast as a move, and I hope it was interesting for you :)
 
Its crazy how far I've come as a Player. Back in launch, I'd thought Hreat Tusk and Treads were going to be most annoying, unevolving, parts of the meta that other players will keep in the meta no matter the cost. Now, those two things look like Trash bulking up to still do garbage damage. Why are they OU?
I'm not sure #2 and #25 in usage are trash - it's not necessarily about the damage lmao it's about the utility
 
I will say if we do look at Volc as a community (down the line), lets please look at Tera first, because ideally I think the community (for the most part) is content with restricting tera by banning Tera Blast because I don't think Volc is problematic if it loses Tera Blast, for example it will always lose to Heatran.
i think it's time to let it go. judging by the results of the last survey, community sentiment leans slightly anti-restriction among qualified voters and heavily anti-ban among both groups. this indicates to me that the community would not in fact be content with restricting tera "for the most part". besides that, i've already gone over how an outright tera ban would have minimal effects on tiering as it's already happened, and a tera blast ban would have even less of an effect; it's almost certain that the only mons who would be unbanned due to a tera blast ban are regieleki and espathra, espathra would probably end up banned again, and eleki would probably end up making exactly zero waves in ou. as for claims that a tera blast ban would prevent future bans or make the meta healthier, those are heavily speculative
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I have trouble seeing Raging Bolt as actually broken. It is certainly a Top 10 or Top 5 mon rn, but I oppose a future suspect test. To explain why, first let’s compare it to Gambit.

Gambit could take games due to powerful Sucker Punches and Supreme Overlord boosts. A +1 Proto boosted Thunderclap is very close to a +2 Gambit Sucker without any SO boosts.

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mewtwo: 282-333 (79.8 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Normal Mewtwo: 279-328 (79 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


However this comparison ends once Gambit gets SO boosts.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mewtwo: 423-498 (119.8 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gambit also could run Tera Dark to boost it further. Results are…crazy.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mewtwo: 564-664 (159.7 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 204-240 (54.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 412-486 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Raging Bolt rarely ever runs Tera Electric because it still remains vulnerable to EQs or HLR from the grounds.

There are three resists to Dark and Electric but for the latter we have an immunity
, A.K.A one of the most common typings in competitive pokemon, Ground.

Electric Immunities are a necessity to teambuilding in many generations because Volt Switch and Electric Types are very scarwy. Fortunately there has always been several amazing-to-good ground types in the tier, and it’s no different rn. The meme of there being 8 fucking ground types didn’t pop out of nowhere. Tusk, Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, Landorus-T, Iron Treads, Excadrill, even more niche stuff like Garchomp, Ursaluna, Mamoswine, and Hippowdon. (Though I wouldn’t use Chomp and Ursa as my Rbolt checks)

From S tier to B+, we have more resistances to Electric than Dark.

Dark 14/46
Electric 15/46

And about those 14 Dark resistances, guess what, 4 of them can’t reliably eat a SO boosted Sucker.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 258-305 (88 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 258-305 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 250-295 (87.7 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO


Prim and Clef are OHKOd by faster Gambit variants via Iron Head. So in actuality, you have 8/46. Compare this to Raging Bolt failing to OHKO the frail Meowscarada, even with 2 Calm Mind boosts and Booster.

+2 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 226-267 (77.1 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and in return

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 366-438 (89.9 - 107.6%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

Since Thunderclap isn’t as strong as boosted Sucker Punches and has actual immunities, Raging Bolt’s mediocre 75 base speed comes into play more frequently.

The faster ground types like Lando, Tusk, and Gliscor could invest in enough speed to outrun max speed Modest Bolt, which is to say, speed creep 249. Though some run speed for 0 investment Gliscor.

IMG_2968.jpeg

IMG_2966.jpeg

IMG_2967.jpeg


The ground types that don’t outrun it, are bulky enough to check it without investment. A.K.A Ting-Lu and Clodsire.

The culprit is the bridge. Not only does Archaludon wear down Raging Bolt’s checks and increase the usage of rain and thus Weather Ball, but consider this. Lando-T and Treads have been running Earth Power to 2HKO Arch. I’ve seen fucking Earth Power Clodsire just to hit Arch harder. Earthquake matches up much better into CM Bolt, but they don’t wanna lose the 1v1 to Arch. This creates the obvious problem that teams cannot cover both Archaludon and Raging Bolt. Which contributes to the matchup fishy nature of the tier.

Arch also discourages other possible Rbolt counterplay. Toxic lets Gking put Rbolt on a timer, but T-Wave is encouraged because of Arch. Rillaboom is usually an amazing Rain mon that could also rkill a terastilized Raging Bolt, but it doesn’t want to give Arch free entry. Meowscarada could live a Thunder Clap and threaten an OHKO with Axel, but attempting to do anything with Meow only triggers Stamina boosts for Arch.

By itself, Raging Bolt is a positive addition to the tier imo. I’ve said it several times. Not only is it a fantastic fat offensive mon that can fit on any style, but it also gatekeeps Zapdos’ stupid ass. Discouraging Zapdos usage is huge imo. I think Zapdos was a bigger offender to the spike stacking meta than Ghold, because you have to play a game of “pray Static doesn’t proc if I click Spin” and Zapdos spamming Hurricane + T-Wave/Volt encouraged Ting-Lu usage who got up Spikes easily. Zapdos created an RNG fuck fest between paralysis and confusion procs that were not fun to deal with.

I apologize in advance if Clodsire is anyone’s favorite Pokémon. Clod usage skyrocketing is a giant red flag on the state of meta. The mon has no business being a top tier OU mon. This gives me flashbacks of Dracovish and Seismitoad, when Toad peaked at #4 usage, then fell back to RU as soon as Vish got banned.
Clodsire’s usage being this high is less of Raging Bolt and moreso cause it’s the only fat ground type with reliable recovery that can 1v1 Archaludon.
 
By itself, Raging Bolt is a positive addition to the tier imo. I’ve said it several times. Not only is it a fantastic fat offensive mon that can fit on any style, but it also gatekeeps Zapdos’ stupid ass. Discouraging Zapdos usage is huge imo. I think Zapdos was a bigger offender to the spike stacking meta than Ghold, because you have to play a game of “pray Static doesn’t proc if I click Spin” and Zapdos spamming Hurricane + T-Wave/Volt encouraged Ting-Lu usage who got up Spikes easily. Zapdos created an RNG fuck fest between paralysis and confusion procs that were not fun to deal with.
Me coming in with my tera fairy blast zapdos:

Jokes aside, I do think that zapdos while annoying, also kinda is a necessary evil, as it can be used as an emergency check to anything. Plus, a Gen 1 mon that has stayed relatively the same across the generations being OU until this one (we don't talk about Gen 5) is kinda cool. I think that zapdos is undderated and could see some more experimentation to diversify its sets.
 
I have trouble seeing Raging Bolt as actually broken. It is certainly a Top 10 or Top 5 mon rn, but I oppose a future suspect test. To explain why, first let’s compare it to Gambit.

Gambit could take games due to powerful Sucker Punches and Supreme Overlord boosts. A +1 Proto boosted Thunderclap is very close to a +2 Gambit Sucker without any SO boosts.
I habitually vote for Kingambit 5 on surveys so comparing Raging Bolt to Kingcheap is more of an indictment than a counter from my perspective. A 55% majority of the community already voted to evict Kingcheap from the tier.

Both are bulky, strong af tanks with good typing, priority, abilities that further boost power, and Tera in their back pocket. They are onerous to prepare for in the builder because their priority late game sweeping mandates you have an answer for them. It also doesn’t help that Bolt and Gambit have divergent counterplay (Tusk is not great into Bolt as it can easily get popped on the switch).

Clodsire’s usage being this high is less of Raging Bolt and moreso cause it’s the only fat ground type with reliable recovery that can 1v1 Archaludon.
It’s a combination both. Clodsire checks both Arch and Raging Bolt. You can’t proclaim that Raging Bolt has no effect on Clod usage.
 
Hippowdon seems like a interesting alternative check to Archaludon, Raging Bolt and Gouging Fire. The main advantage it has is Sand Stream, which locks Archaludon into Electro Shot and removes Protosynthesis (and Weather Ball) from the sun abusers. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have enough EVs to check all of them at once. Probably C+ at best due to its passivity, but worth looking into.
 
It’s a combination both. Clodsire checks both Arch and Raging Bolt. You can’t proclaim that Raging Bolt has no effect on Clod usage.
Clodsire does check Raging Bolt, but it can lose to Raging Bolt in rain since it needs Unaware for Archaludon, which means Weather Ball really hurts Clodsire. Archaludon at the moment absolutely has more of an effect on Clodsire's usage than Raging Bolt right now.
 
Regarding Clodsire, there is a lot of talk about the cause it gets so high usage. Its not a single Mon, lets see Clodsire vs VR:


S Rank

Kingambit : Despite hitting effectively, Clodsire loses this.


S- Rank

Dragapult: Sdef Water Absorb Clodsire will wall Specs Pult. PDef Unaware Clodsire will wall Physical sets, Tera (Fairy or Dark) might be needed if Pult Teras. WoW + Sub Pult gives troubles to all Clodsire sets, but it needs to have the very specific 4 moves (Wow, Sub, Hex and Dragon Darts). Overall, a positive match-up for Clod, but not fully.


Gholdengo: Bad match-up, Gholdengo is too bulky. Clodsire will need Unaware or Lefties + Amnesia to reliably wall this Mon, and even then might be caught by Psyshock or Trick.


Gliscor : Worst Clodsire match-up in the Tier. Will do whatever it wants in front of Clod. However, worth noting that is a frequent partner for Clodsire on Stall and Spike Stack teams.

Great Tusk: Terrible. At least can Toxic this one if Pdef or on the switch.

Kyurem: Still bad, but Tera + Lefties can wall Special one if Sdef and if Pdef + Unaware, Pdef one.

A Rank

A+ Rank



Gouging Fire: Pdef + Tera Water or Fairy could do well vs DD... but Band is a no go, especially in Sun.


Meowscarada: Overall bad, but Meowscarada isn,t enterely safe from Toxic or Poison Jab in 1vs1. Depends on Tera of both Mons, but negative for Clod.


Raging Bolt: Water Absorb Clod will do very well vs Rain Bolt. Unaware does well outside of Rain, especially vs CM sets. Very good match-up for Clodsire, but not flawless.

Roaring Moon: Pdef Tera Fairy Unaware could have a shot at stoping DD versions, but Band in Sun is too strong.

Slowking Galar: Clodsire does a lot of damage to this guy but takes a lot too.

Ting-Lu: Terrible. Not an offensive threat to be feared though.

A Rank


Archaludon: Clodsire is pretty reliable vs this one with Unaware. Specs might break, but Specs Archaludon is rare and not as big of a threat as AV in Rain.


Deoxys-Speed: Psychic, so bad match-up. Clodsire needs Tera to do something. And that is assuming Deoxys is offensive, cause it can also use Taunt and whatever it wants.

Enamorus: Unaware Clodsire with Amnesia will wall every set except Specs Earth Power. Poison Jab is useful to break the rare Sub-CM. Very good match-up vs a very big threat.

Hatterene: On Stall, Tera Dark will wall this. Otherwise, not good.

Iron Boulder: Pdef Unaware + Lefties will not be 2HKOd by EQ, but will need Tera for Zen Headbutt. Of course, Tera will have to not be weak to CC or Cleave. Sdef Clod gets wrecked.

Pelipper: Good with Water Absorb.

Samurott Hisui: Very bad, even with Water Absorb. Pdef Water Absorb almost has no merit, so Samurott will hit hard with Ceaseless Edge. If Pdef + Unaware, Clod will wall, but only with Tera.

Skarmory: Skarmory can do whatever it wants vs Clod, just like Gliscor.

Volcarona: Will break through Water Absorb, but will be stopped by Unaware. Could break with Tera, but Clodsire will wall with his Tera. Positive match-up for Clod.

Walking Wake: Water Absorb Tera Fairy Clodsire is the best Walking Wake counter in the Tier. Even without Tera its hard to break for Wake, unless it goes Tera Dragon itself.

Weavile: Pdef Unaware with Tera will wall, but only with Tera, therefore negative match-up.

Zamazenta: Pdef Unaware will wall most sets even without Tera. Can,t kill Sub versions, but will wall forever, except for Crunch drops. Important win.

A- Rank


Barraskewda: Breaks through Water Absorb with Psychic Fangs, but not every single of them has the move.

Cinderace: Pdef will wall non Band, non Sun versions, but won,t be able to freely set hazards.

Clefable: Clodsire can do whatever it wants, except if Trick + Sticky Barb or if CM + Stored Power. Even there, Unaware Tera Dark is an option.

Darkrai: Sdef will wall Specs set. Unaware can wall NP. Trick is bad for Clod though.

Clodsire: Water Absorb walls non Curse, but thats not a threat. Curse ones will be stopped by Unware, but only with Tera.

Glimmora: Only Tera Ground Earth Power is even remotely a threat.

Iron Valiant: Pdef Unaware Clodsire walls almost every set, except Trick. One of the most important Clodsire niches, since Valiant is very versatile and hard to cover.

Landorus_T: Run away from this.

Waterpon: Pdef Water Absorb is not a thing, so this match-up is bad too.

Rillaboom: Needs a Tera type resistant to Grass + Pdef.

Serperior: Unaware walls. Even Pdef Unaware walls, if Serperior Tera Grounds, Clod can Tera too.

Skeledirge: Can break over the course of a match, but overall a positive match-up for Clod.

Torkoal: Not a threat, its partners are the actual threats.

B Rank

B+ Rank



Clodsire: Hi.

Corviknight: See Gliscor and Skarmory. One of Clodsire's best friends though.

Dragonite: Pdef Unaware can wall but only with Tera, since EQ does too much.

Greninja: Sdef Water Absorb will wall everything except Specs Ice Beam... but can Tera to wall that too.

Iron Treads: Clodsire does too little with EQ.

Latias: Clodsire needs Unaware + Tera Dark, otherwise its blown away by Stored Power. Latias needs Tera to do that, otherwise is risking Poison, therefore not the worst match-up.

Primarina: Psychic Noise versions are annoying, but Poison Jab Sdef deals nicely, forcing Primarina to Tera.


Tornadus-Therian : Taunt versions only really fear Poison Jab and Regenerator helps the bird. Non Taunt can be walled, but Knock is annoying too.

Toxapex: Free Hazards for Water Absorb Clodsire.


Overall, Clodsire has some very bad match-ups vs OU Top Tier Mons, but also several good ones: Raging Bolt, Archaludon, Enamorus, Zamazenta, Walking Wake and especially Iron Valiant are all Mons hard to cover and while a single Clodsire can,t wall them all at the same time, it can have the right set for all of them. As I already said on the Suspect thread, this Mon is much more than a Stall Mon and can fit on a variety of balanced teams, even structures that lean to offense can benefit from having a Clodsire, pretty sure Highv0ltag3 agrees with me that its usage is not only explained by Raging Bolt and Archaludon, this Mon has big potential and decent splashability despite its shortcomings.
 
I keep making the mistake of doubting mons with weak special defense. First it was Bloodmoon, and now this.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have been too surprised, because Electro Shot is comparable to STAB Thunderbolt even before the Special Attack boost, and you can use it over and over again. When Electro Shot was first revealed, I remember people saying that Meteor Beam should also be a one turn move in sand. Well this mon shows why that's a horrible idea.

I think the bad Special Defense was an attempt at balancing the 90 hp and 130 Defense stats to not make Archaludon unkilliable, and I think it worked for vgc at least (from what I've heard). Too bad our metagame seems to be allergic to balance.
Meteor Beam being 1 turn in sand might have finally been the thing that made glimmora banworthy! They should have done it!
 
So I reworked my previous messages and they're classics. To reiterate what I think I said, I have 2 solutions to the tera problem but they will both require a complete reset of the metagame bans that are currently in place.

Solution 1: Same type tera only with possibly only one flex. This is the only one in my opinion that works now.

Solution 2: Start everything from the scratch, and only allow Stellar type terrastallization with the addition of no quickbans. My friend wanted me to say that.

That's it. Solution 3 is a non-answer. Banning tera is shutting down the metagame.
the problem with both of these options is that option 1 severely limits defensive tera, turning ou largely into a matchup-fishing competition instead of a metagame, and option 2 eliminates defensive tera altogether and would set back over a year's worth of progress with no easy method of regaining that progress thanks to the addition of "no quickbans", which is, respectfully, a completely asinine suggestion
 
Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Magic Room
- Sunny Day
- Foul Play
Don't like rain? Don't like gliscor? Want barra to do less damage? Want arch to have an exploitable sp.Defense stat? Well here's a set for you.
 
Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Magic Room
- Sunny Day
- Foul Play
Don't like rain? Don't like gliscor? Want barra to do less damage? Want arch to have an exploitable sp.Defense stat? Well here's a set for you.
implying arch's special defense stat isn't already exploitable

So I reworked my previous messages and they're classics. To reiterate what I think I said, I have 2 solutions to the tera problem but they will both require a complete reset of the metagame bans that are currently in place.

Solution 1: Same type tera only with possibly only one flex. This is the only one in my opinion that works now.

Solution 2: Start everything from the scratch, and only allow Stellar type terrastallization with the addition of no quickbans. My friend wanted me to say that.

That's it. Solution 3 is a non-answer. Banning tera is shutting down the metagame.
1 is terrible and just turns the meta into even more of a matchup fish. 2 is literally just day 1 of pre-DLC OU but with a bunch of post-DLC pokemon and no tera, which is somehow even worse. Your YCCB tag says it all, you're either completely out of touch or are the single best fisherman on the thread
 
I do think we will act on tera, but not until at least Archaludon and a few other broken threats are looked at and or banned. Because from what I have heard from most people, they don't want action on tera until more stuff goes since there are a good amount of suspect worthy things in the tier since clearly certain pokemon need to be looked at
We will act on Tera? Are you speaking for the council or for yourself?
 
I really wish we had more/better setters. It's fine for weather. You can make do with a somewhat mid pokemon if you can get weather on the switch in. But for certain terrain types, it's just problematic. Pincurchin is like playing 5 v 6 the whole match. Indeedee is somewhat more workable, but still quite bad. Rillaboom is good, so grassy terrain teams can be good. G-Weezing is a mon that I believe is very underrated. But in order to be actually useful, it tends to want to run the other abilities. And it doesn't help that Misty Terrain is the worst one.

Basically, weather teams rely on the strength of their abusers while terrain teams seem to rely more on the viability of their setters. Or at least this is what I have noticed.
 
I really wish we had more/better setters. It's fine for weather. You can make do with a somewhat mid pokemon if you can get weather on the switch in. But for certain terrain types, it's just problematic. Pincurchin is like playing 5 v 6 the whole match. Indeedee is somewhat more workable, but still quite bad. Rillaboom is good, so grassy terrain teams can be good. G-Weezing is a mon that I believe is very underrated. But in order to be actually useful, it tends to want to run the other abilities. And it doesn't help that Misty Terrain is the worst one.

Basically, weather teams rely on the strength of their abusers while terrain teams seem to rely more on the viability of their setters. Or at least this is what I have noticed.
Not really, rain with politoed would still be decent, but it is still the strength of pelipper that carries it. It's moreso a two way thing. If you have a bad setter, than no, it isn't going to be good. Look at snow before A-tales was introduced, the best they had was abomasnow. Even if it had amazing abusers, they would still not be used because aboma is so bad. But on the opposite side of the spectrum, you have to have great abusers. Despite the power of rillaboom, if there were not enough mons to abuse the grassy terrain, then grassy terrain teams would not be good.
It's a two way thing, you have to have good setters and abusers, one without the other is not going to work. One of the reasons why rain is so good is that pelipper is perfect for arch since it resists the ground/fighting type moves it is weak to, while still being a threat.
 
:roaring_moon: Almost impossible to wall after a Dragon Dance, flexible last slot for things like Taunt or Roost, can't wall with Unaware because of Protosynthesis, bulky enough to get a single Dragon Dance off and cleave through everything after that without priority, which has slightly gone down with the disappearance of Weavile, Dragonite and the ban to Baxcalibur a long while back didn't hurt either.

:gouging_fire: Actually impossible to properly revenge kill with priority because of how damn bulky this thing is. It accumulates Dragon Dances way too easily, able to shrug off attacks it would otherwise have no right living and has sound sustain in Morning Sun. Tera only helps exemplify these strengths as it can turn any weakness it has to Ground, Dragon or just strong Water Type moves into a resistance or neutrality and continue to eat hits like nothing.

:volcarona: A single Quiver Dance is all Volcarona needs to get moving. Tera allows it to do things it really shouldn't like blowing past bulky Fires or Dragons, setting up Quiver Dances numerous times in the face of something that would otherwise pop it even at +1, it has Morning Sun to completely dominate Special Attackers and any physical priority or revenge killers are at the mercy of its 30% chance to procc Flame Body, leaving them useless for the remainder of the match.

:raging_bolt: Greatly held back by its poor Speed tier and the abundance of bulky Ground Types in the tier. It often needs to Tera whenever a Ground Type comes in lest it be thrashed by Ground Moves and its only boosting option is the slow Calm Mind. Thunderclap has many resistances in the tier that can tank it at least once (Meowscarada of all things only takes 68% max after a +1 boost and Protosynthesis), nevermind the number of Tera Ground happy Pokemon like Kyurem, Gouging Fire and Iron Boulder.

I really think Tera as a whole should be booted from the tier. It pushes a ton of Pokemon over the edge from being strong candidates to absurdly overpowered and often serves as the straw that breaks the camels back. Kingambit, Volcarona, Roaring Moon, Kyurem and others wouldn't be able to cheat past their checks and counters without it.
 
I apologize in advance if Clodsire is anyone’s favorite Pokémon. Clod usage skyrocketing is a giant red flag on the state of meta. The mon has no business being a top tier OU mon. This gives me flashbacks of Dracovish and Seismitoad, when Toad peaked at #4 usage, then fell back to RU as soon as Vish got banned.
great post!

I've always called stuff like clodsire "canary pokemon." That meaning - if they rise in popularity or/and become *defensive* staples, despite not actually doing much besides hard hard checking a few things out of necessity and not gaining any sort of momentum/progress on their own as defensive pokemon like actual good mons do, its a sign of a much bigger problem in the metagame. Like sending a canary into a mine.

Clodsire has virtually 0 initiative and serves as a pure hard counter due to its unique typing/bulk/ability that lend it to be amazing vs a few things as an extreme and shite generally speaking in a varied metagame.

Whenever pokemon like clodsire, helmet ferrothorn (mega kang xy days if your old as shit like me - this was to trade 1 for 1 every game while losing out on much of what ferro actually provides), ss seismitoad like you said, you MUST act on whatever is bringing that popularity of the hyper-specific, flaccid, defensive pokemon that abandons traditional rules of defensive structure/sequencing into NECESSITY.

anyways.... im logging off to terrorize Finchinator in private again
 
Taking a break from the weather wars and tera debates, I just want to point out how funny it is that we were all scared for months of how this rumored 19th Tera type was going to wreak havoc on the metagame and then it came out and just kind of sucked
We banned terapogos and then we were down to 2 stellar abusers, then we realized that serp REALLY needed ground tera blast so really it's just enamorous. Stellar tera isn't even good for in-game tera raids despite all moves getting the damage boost for the entire time you're tera'd just because a normal tera stab boost is just better and stronger
 
We banned terapogos and then we were down to 2 stellar abusers, then we realized that serp REALLY needed ground tera blast so really it's just enamorous. Stellar tera isn't even good for in-game tera raids despite all moves getting the damage boost for the entire time you're tera'd just because a normal tera stab boost is just better and stronger
Like as far as relevant mons go the only ones that use that use stellar consistently and make good use of it are BB Greninja and Enamorus-I
 
Taking a break from the weather wars and tera debates, I just want to point out how funny it is that we were all scared for months of how this rumored 19th Tera type was going to wreak havoc on the metagame and then it came out and just kind of sucked
It seems gamefreak tried so hard to make stellar not broken that they ended up making it one of the worst tera types. Im just glad its not broken tbh, less things to worry about.
 
You do realize you posted another solution to the tera debate: ban tera fairy?

To move things on, wouldn't the Lati appreciate to Stellar as well? I saw Flygon a few pages ago, on this thread, where it got some sun. And I ran a calc vs bulky Dragonite and compared it to Garchomp. To save you some time, its beat but by damage roll percentage. If that make any sense? LOL
How? I'm sorry but how does enamorus become broken with tera fairy? It's main set uses stellar tera, which is completely different to tera fairy. Plus, if we are banning only one specific tera type, that seems like we would be holding onto the mechanic while it is still broken (Not that I want tera banned right now, but the logic does not make sense). I can genuinelly not tell if you are trying to be funny and failing miserably or being serious.
 

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