Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

TPP

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Head TD
Hello everyone! With the second DLC, The Indigo Disk, finally being released, you all are free to start discussing the new SV OU metagame here! Like always, I will list things in a similar manner to the role compendium to help distinguish potential roles. I'll try to keep it updated as we get more information. Enjoy!

Resources:

Here is a text dump with all available pokemon and their stats, abilities and full move list
Here is a doc by RoiDadadou that has all the information as well
Battle Mechanics Research Thread
Orange Islands SV Section
List of Pokemon that learn the new TM's

Pokemon unbanned from Ubers:



New Pokemon:


Returning Pokemon:


Entry Hazards:

Spikes:
Stealth Rock:
Sticky Web:
Toxic Spikes:

Hazard Removal:

Rapid Spin:
Tidy Up:

Setup Sweepers/Breakers:

Belly Drum:
Bulk Up:
Calm Mind:
Coil:
Dragon Dance:
Nasty Plot:
Quiver Dance:
Shell Smash:
Swords Dance:
Tidy Up:

Weather:

Rain:
Sand:
Sun:

Limited Distribution (Only listing new additions):

Knock Off:
Scald:
Toxic:
 

TPP

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Head TD
I will update this post as more information is discovered, or if any corrections are required. Please let me know if anything is incorrect or missing, thanks. Much thanks to the people in the research thread for sharing their findings so that making this post was possible.

Edit: Adjusted the Stellar Tera portion thanks to one of the replies here. Thank you

New moves:



Stellar Tera Type Mechanics:
  • This Tera does not change Tera user's type (if Iron Valiant used it, it would remain a Fairy/Fighting type).
  • You are able to a 1.2x boost the first time you use each type of move:
    • If I have a set with Fire Punch + Thunder Punch + Ice Punch + Drain Punch, I would get a 1.2x boost the first time I use all 4 of those moves
    • You do not get the 1.2x boost by attacking with a different move of the same type:
      • If I had Fire Punch + Flamethrower and used Flamethrower already, then neither move would get the 1.2x boost afterwards
    • Switching out does not reset this, which means that you only get the 1.2x boost once per type for the entire game.
  • You are able to get the 2x boost the first time you use moves that match your original type:
    • If I use Tera Stellar on my Iron Moth, then I would get a 2X bonus on the first Fire-type and the first Poison-type attacks I use.
  • Your Attack and Special Attack decrease by 1 Stage after using Tera Blast while Terastallised in this type:
    • Contrary Users such as Serperior and Enamorus will have their stats increased instead like usual.
    • The only exception to this is Terapagos in its Stellar Form, which will retain permanent STAB on everything.
  • Tera Blast will be a base 120 power non-STAB attack that deals neutral damage against everything, and will always be super-effective against Terastallised opponents.
Terapagos Mechanics:
  • There are 3 forms:
    • Normal
      • This is the small form and will not be used in battle. Upon entry, it will automatically transform into the Terastal form (like how Groudon holding a Red Orb would automatically transform into Primal Groudon at all times).
    • Terastal
      • This is essentially the default form.
      • Its ability is similar to Multiscale, but instead, any attack that hits Terapagos at full health will be not very effective.
        • Ghost-type attacks are the exception and Terapagos will remain immune to them.
      • All hits of a multi-attack are resisted (all 4 hits from Scale Shot would be resisted instead of just the first one)
    • Stellar
      • This form is only available by Terastallising Terapagos.
      • This ability is similar to Air Lock, but instead, it eliminates all Weather and all Terrain once per battle.
      • It will end Weather and Terrain, but does not prevent them from being set up again.
      • When used in this form, its signature move, Tera Starstorm will hit everything for neutral damage, and hit Terastallised opponents for super-effective damage.
      • Terapagos in this form becomes an exception to other Stellar-type users, where it will retain STAB on everything for the entire game.
      • Terapagos has higher base stats in this form, including an HP increase from base 90 to 160. This increase will happen as soon as it transforms, similar to Zygarde in its 100% form.
  • Terapagos is locked into the Stellar Tera Type and cannot change it, similar to how Ogerpon is tera locked.
Various Other Mechanics:
 
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njnp

We don't play this game to lose.
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Race To Darkness
:darkrai: :weavile: :kingambit: :Meowscarada: :Roaring Moon:
With the release of DLC 2 Indigo Disk, after having many discussions what has stood out to me is Dark types will have a chokehold on the early meta. We have mons improving their movepool, returning to the tier, getting an introduction to the tier, and still in the tier :kingambit:. So with this metagame about to start, let's get into the race to darkness.

Darkrai :darkrai: will be monitored closely on how effective it will be. We will most likely see cheese sets like Hypnosis, and hopefully much more common Heavy-Duty Boots 4 Attack/Nasty Plot sets. I don't see Darkrai to be a large problem for hyper-offensive teams/structures as they should have a reasonable amount of Pokemon to pressure/revenge it. The concern for Darkrai comes in the form of whether Balance will be able to handle it properly. Most balances I imagine will feature the likes of Gliscor/Ting Lu as they did heavily during the Gliscor metagame. Darkrai has the tools to deal heavy blows to both general special defensive balance answers in ice beam/focus blast respectively. Now, as far as it goes with Ting Lu it would either need to knock it off early or get a safe nasty plot off to apply heavy pressure to it. I feel with a well-structured team that won't be a major problem for Darkrai. There is also the very important matter of Darkrai being able to pressure one of the most popular Spdef absorbers in Slowking-Galar similar to Greninja/Dragapult, and there is also the matter of Gliscor as well. I feel Gliscors presence helps Darkrai as Galars won't be able to easily slot on a t wave to paralyze it and cripple it for the remainder of the match as they'll likely need to carry Ice Beam once more for Gliscor (or chilly reception in :kyurem:). There is also the reality that Gliscor's presence stifles Pokemon like Clodsire, Tinkaton, and Toxapex who would be viewed as respectable Darkrai measures. Now, I'm not saying these Pokemon won't be used...but the question becomes will they be a viable enough presence to allow Darkrai to remain in the OU tier long-term?

Weavile :weavile: is back. You may think Weavile never left, but it most certainly did, and thankfully with it having gained back Triple Axel it can finally cement its place in the OU metagame potentially. Weaville will most definitely see usage as it is able to not only offensively pressure Gliscor while having the amazing move in knock-off to challenge any switch in but its ice shard priority will come in handy for its fellow dark type counterpart Roaring Moon. It will not be as impactful I feel as its counterparts on this list of dark types but with its speed tier typing with the likes of Darkrai outpacing most of the metagame and pressuring a good amount of the tier offensively hopefully it will show once again why it was borderline broken in SS OU.

Kingambit :kingambit: never left the OU tier. Which most find misery in, in fact majority of the players who voted in its suspect found it too much for the OU tier. It has had a grip on this tier and for a couple of months even had more Usage in this tier than its alleged counter Great Tusk. There isn't much that needs to be said in this post that hasn't been said about Kingambit before, it's mostly here to hone in and focus on how overwhelming the Dark type will be @ the start of DLC 2. The biggest stand out on this is Kingambit has the typing that makes it not prone to easily dying to fairy attackers, unlike its counterparts. It's able to pressure the likes of Clefable, while coming into Gholdengos stabs, and having an impressive bulk that it can invest in thanks to Sucker Punch. Kingambit itself probably shouldn't be in the OU metagame, the reality is though that it is, and because of that it will most likely synergistically aid one of its Dark type counterparts to join the Ubers tier, something it was able to evade.

Meowscarada :Meowscarada: isn't even an OU Pokemon. However, with the addition of Triple Axel to its move pool its looking to change its standing in the OU metagame and claim a lot of bodies along its way. I personally think this Pokemon with the addition of Triple Axel will be generational. Being able to get past one of its biggest challenges in Zapdos while being able to come in and pressure the likes of Gliscor, Enam, & more is a pretty big deal. Now, of course, it's limited by how protean works this generation, triple axel not being the most accurate move, along with the fact if you choose to run a protective pad, choice scarf, or choice band sets you will find yourself with a heavily spike weak pivot in a Gliscor hazard stack metagame. Nonetheless, this Pokemon is back and looks primed to join its dark counterparts in leaving balance players vexed.

Roaring Moon :Roaring Moon: just left the OU tier. Roaring Moon was just recently banned with a commanding 70% and just like Chien Pao it aims to remind people why it was removed from the OU tier once more. It has to potentially contend for air time now though with such prevalent dark types rising the ranks as discussed in this post. Roaring Moon will be entering a metagame that likely will look quite different then when it left but I doubt it looses footing and stumbles into irrelevancy like it did earlier this generation. That's mostly due to Knock Off but also thee weather in Sun with the new toys it just got this DLC won't be falling off anytime soon. It will be a go-to counter measure on most offensive builds for the likes of scary Pokemon such as Volcarona and offensively pressuring those pesky Grassy Terrain arch types once more. It has to deal with scarf Meowscarada having now some what of a reliable move to revenge it, Weaville rising in viability so ice shard being more prevalent, and potentially speed boosting Iron Boulder coming in to revenge it. It will also have "measures" like Skarmory coming to aid the OU tier with it as well. We shall see if we're able to fend it off this go around, or it will put on a show similar to Chien Pao with its return, showing us it's above the OU tier.

Dark types truly have been amazing this generation and will continue to at the start of this DLC 2 metagame. This post doesn't even include the milder threats such as Sam-H, Greninja, or Ting-Lu who have left players at a loss in many matches this gen.

This is going to be an exhilarating start to the tier I'm looking forward to seeing who wins the...
Race To Darkness.
 
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I’m calling it now that bulky hydrapple utilizing dragon breath will be a thing. 30% paralysis is nothing to take lightly.

A shame that terapagos probably won’t last in the tier since it’s unlikely the forms will be tiered separately. OU could really use a bulky unpredictable spinner like that.

Hyped to see just how useful psychic noise is or not, there’s potential it’s incredibly powerful being able to shut down walls.
 
A couple initial thoughts

Every time I look at Terapagos I can’t decided just how good it is 130 special attack and stab on everything is incredible impressive, not to mention an better multi scale. But without recovery and a that speed stat it’s extremely easy to revenge by the like 3 or 4 speedy fighting types it’s not unbeatable. Plus terapagos camt invest in its special attack speed and hp all at once forcing you to make hard choices on what beats you.

hydrapplin and gourging fire look amazing, like staple Pokémon good

Temper flare isn’t a defog TM, but it does make it so cyclzar and talonflame can remove hazards on gholdengo now. Which is huge itself.
 
I would like to know the council's thoughts on shed tail now that we have two new users for it in sceptile and smeargle. I believe that to be consistent with previous tiering decision surrounding it the course of action would be to unban shed tail and then ban the abusers one by one if neccesary until it just so happens all 4 of them are broken with it, after which they can all be unbanned and shed tail banned again. This is however also rather time-consuming and could take multiple months, so I can also see the council taking the path of least resistance and just assume sceptile and smeargle will be broken with this move without actually testing it out.
 
Entry Hazards:

Spikes:
Stealth Rock:
Sticky Web:
Toxic Spikes:

Hazard Removal:

Rapid Spin:
Tidy Up:
my honest and genuine reaction to this information
this is the thing i'm super excited for, though. their signatures are finally real moves! latios has pretty compelling reasons to run luster purge over psychic and psyshock, and latias… well, latias is here too
 
my honest and genuine reaction to this information

this is the thing i'm super excited for, though. their signatures are finally real moves! latios has pretty compelling reasons to run luster purge over psychic and psyshock, and latias… well, latias is here too
Same. Latios also having flip turn now means it can keep up momentum instead of thudding into switches and with the luster purge buff, it feels like it has some real potential. 50% to drop spdef is huge and if HSam has shown me, that can allow for super easy breaking.


New Pokemon:
I’m also very excited for all the new mobs as they have some good qualities that at least allow them some semblance of viability. Archaludon feels like the missing link to rain so they don’t fold to rilla and wellspring,l for example. Hydrapple full counters Wellspring and has a good offensive presence as well as longevity with regenerator. I’m interested in Iron Crown as its signature move seems cool as an anti lead tech for focus sash Glimmora and ribombee, which is cool. Also has good stats generally and a pivoting move.

There is a lot to look forward to in this meta, though I’m personally dreading the deo hyper offense spam we’ok undoubtedly be seeing
 

658Greninja

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Why does Game Freak have such a hatred for Defog this gen?

Did it kill their grandma or something?

Ok to make this not a shitpost. Got some things to add.

Gouging Fire seems really good not just offensively but defensively. Amazing bulk, Morning Sun, Dtail, Wisp, and Burnful Bunker. With SpD investment it can check Ghold, Volcarona, and CM Valiant or check Gambit, Blaziken, and Rilla with PhysD.

Spikes are gonna be more hell on earth with Deoxys and Gliscor in the tier.

Bout to pull up Scarf Darkrai just for that plus the DPP Ubers nostalgia.
 
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Really Hyped for Hydrapple
The combo of Fickle beam + Regenerator has potential to be an incredibly unique wallbreaker.
I'm curious about what its best set will be though. I'd say Nasty Plot + Leaf Storm + Fickle Beam + Yawn?
Maybe replacing yawn/NP for coverage.

Other than that, what pokemon do people will think will be the best users of Stellar Tera?
It seems pretty restricted to fast pokemon that run 4 attacks. So I'd Guess most likely Moth, Pult, Valiant and Tusk would be the big 4 currently in OU. Could also see some mons like Dipplin or Archdulon using it.
 
Okaaaay hello everyone. How's your day? Mines was great. But I'm not here to talk about my day -- here's my take on the DLC and what's to come.

- Deoxys Speed is Gliscor stuffs all over again. We all know how that went, so we can improve from this as well. It's probably getting got within like 2 days anyways, so that's fine.

- There is A LOT. And I mean... a LOT of setup. Volcarona, Roaring Moon, Darkrai, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Iron Boulder. It's all going to be a very fast metagame to the point where stall isn't really a valid play style, not is bulky offense.


So in the face of a heavy hazard and setup game, what is there to do? Stellar Terapagos shuts down Snow, so we can't really use Aurora Veil. Darkrai and Deoxys Speed both got a faster Taunt than Alolan Ninetales as well. What if we just use... normal screens? The thing about dual screens is that the setters of it either need to be fast (which won't exactly work with Deoxys Speed in the picture) or they need to threaten what's in front of them with a crippling effect like burn or Encore locking into setup. You seriously can't risk anything with what's about to unfold here, man. The multitude of forced switches mean that setup is going to be very common. My beloved Dondozo cannot function anymore, and the Spikes from Deoxys Speed will make these offensive pokemon even MORE of a threat to face.


I'm going to TRY to listen to my good pal Rekless_Zombie and not have the OU forum cloud my judgement. And as soon as the DLC kicks off, I'm off to the races. Hopefully, I can use the one advantage I have over the competition to get a high placement on the ladder. What that advantage is, you might wonder, I will not say until the future.
 
A couple initial thoughts

Every time I look at Terapagos I can’t decided just how good it is 130 special attack and stab on everything is incredible impressive, not to mention an better multi scale. But without recovery and a that speed stat it’s extremely easy to revenge by the like 3 or 4 speedy fighting types it’s not unbeatable. Plus terapagos camt invest in its special attack speed and hp all at once forcing you to make hard choices on what beats you.

hydrapplin and gourging fire look amazing, like staple Pokémon good

Temper flare isn’t a defog TM, but it does make it so cyclzar and talonflame can remove hazards on gholdengo now. Which is huge itself.
Talonflame and Cyclizar were already doing this, Talon 2hkos with Flamethrower and Ghold users tend to be afraid enough of this to switch in, and Cyclizar was running AV Overheat for this, I could see Temper Flare being better though. Talon struggles to fit moves enough as it is though
 

CobsonYaoi

formerly Holesum420
With the return of Volcarona and Roaring Moon along with Darkrai going to OU for the first time in ages, a Gholdengo ban may not be necessary anymore. Great Tusk and Slither Wing gaining Temper Flame doesn't help Gholdengo either, imagine switching into Close Combat or Headlong Rush w/ Air Balloon just to get hit with a 150BP fire-type move.
 
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here's where i think all the new additions will end up in terms of viability, what do you guys think

ViabilityMons
S / Ban
A
B
C
D
I think you're underselling Crown and Hydrapple. They have too many good qualities to be in C.
I'd probably swap them with archaludon. IMO Archaludon suffers from having a lot of good qualities, but not much cohesion. Sturdy on an already bulky mon, stamina on a special attacking sweeper, Awkward speed tier and unimpressive special bulk will hold it back. On the other hand, Dipplin has well optimised stats, regenerator and an interesting signature move.
 
With the return of Volcarona and Roaring Moon along with Darkrai going to OU for the first time in ages, a Gholdengo ban may not be necessary anymore. Great Tusk and Slither Wing gaining Temper Flame doesn't help Gholdengo, imagine switching into Close Combat or Headlong Rush w/ Air Balloon just to get hit by a 150bp fire-type move.
That's actually kinda cool. Like if they switch out, something is going to be hit with 150 bp move, which will sting everything that doesn't quad resist it.
252 Atk Great Tusk Lash Out vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Gliscor: 105-124 (29.6 - 35%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal (Changed it to fire type and 150 bp in the move)
Not great but that is not bad and can mean ice spinner is not necessary.
 
With the return of Volcarona and Roaring Moon along with Darkrai going to OU for the first time in ages, a Gholdengo ban may not be necessary anymore. Great Tusk and Slither Wing gaining Temper Flame doesn't help Gholdengo, imagine switching into Close Combat or Headlong Rush w/ Air Balloon just to get hit by a 150bp fire-type move.
Temper Flare really feels like it was introduced to nerf Gholdengo specifically. so many pokemon that get it where ones that got beaten by Ghold to begin with. Tusk being the main one.
 
I think you're underselling Crown and Hydrapple. They have too many good qualities to be in C.
I'd probably swap them with archaludon. IMO Archaludon suffers from having a lot of good qualities, but not much cohesion. Sturdy on an already bulky mon, stamina on a special attacking sweeper, Awkward speed tier and unimpressive special bulk will hold it back. On the other hand, Dipplin has well optimised stats, regenerator and an interesting signature move.
Honestly, it's moreso that it is absolutely destroyed by great tusk. Special bulk is also a major issue, but being outsped and ko'd by a top mon is not good. This is an amazing gambit check with body press.

Edit: Sand teams are back baby! Excadrill is great for the tier in other aspects, as it outspeeds great tusk and can threaten gholdengo while removing hazards. Hope this mon stays in OU, at least for a few months. But thank god it didn't get spikes, that would have just been sad.
 
anyway, now that i've made the funny post i wanted to make, let me make a serious post about a mon that i think will not end up being very relevant:

i've been in multiple discussions about :deoxys-defense: and it seems pretty polarizing—some people think it'll be great, some people think it'll be terrible, and no one seems to fall anywhere in between. i personally think deo-d will be bad as things currently stand, and here's why:
  • first off, the terrible defensive typing undercuts its bulk a lot, especially in a meta with so many good dark-type and ghost-type breakers and setup sweepers
  • deo-d is passive as fuck and can easily be exploited by setup sweepers, even with access to what utility it has
  • said setup sweepers include np ghold, gambit, and now darkrai. here's how that goes for deo-d:
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 320-380 (105.2 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Defense: 272-324 (89.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Defense: 276-326 (90.7 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
note that this theoretical deo-d has maximum investment in both defenses, so in practice these matchups may be even harder depending on investment​
  • tera fairy helps it somewhat, but ghold and gambit frequently carry steel stab and darkrai will probably be running sludge bomb a fair amount
  • the literal only thing it can do against ghold is knock off. after this, it can make no meaningful progress against ghold and is always forced out by it. yes, ghold will likely take spikes damage on switch-in, but recover helps a lot with that. having only knock off as an option against ghold didn't work out well at all for mandibuzz and i can't see it working too well for deo-d
  • it can taunt gambit or twave darkrai, but gambit can cleanly 2hko with no boosts so deo has to play taunt/recover mindgames, it has to risk being flinched against darkrai, and it can't cover them both at once
  • luring out gambit and chipping it early is generally valuable, but deo-d isn't doing much in the way of chip unless it sacrifices one of spikes/recover/knock/twave/taunt/skill swap/teleport/whatever. knock is the best option it has to make progress, and sure, that's progress, but deoxys generally dies in that matchup so you arguably lose more than you gain
  • its matchup against gliscor is nonexistent unless you want to slot in ice beam or skill swap. this isn't quite as bad for deo-d as it is in natdex-based metas because gliscor no longer has defog to undo all deo-d's progress, but it's still a pain in the intergalactic ass
  • weavile! weavile is an awful matchup for deo-d thanks to its hard-hitting knock off, and now that it's gotten triple axel back, it's likely to return to its former ou glory. [note: this matchup has occurred fairly frequently in last gen's natdex, which is normally not a good indication of present matchups. however, i feel more than comfortable saying this matchup is bad for deo-d in this format too, since weavile has regained its most meaningful tools and deo-d has lost some of its own]
  • deo-d will likely have about as bad of a time against roaring moon as it does against weavile
  • regen cores. even with spikes up and access to knock off, these are a massive fucking annoyance for deo-d. not only do we already have glowking, amogus, alomomomomola, pex, and torn-t, we also just got a new regenerator mon in hydrapple—among others, hydrapple + glowking seems like it could be a decent core. and we got reuniclus, but that's using magic guard anyway
  • i'm going to be extremely generous here and say it "faces competition" as a bulky spiker from ting-lu and gliscor. i personally would go so far as to say it's outclassed almost entirely by these two, but some people think differently because it's got recover and a better matchup against tusk. this is true, although gliscor can contend very well against tusk if you can play around ice spinner and has a slightly less reliable but way more annoying recovery option
  • one of the arguments i saw in favor of deo-d was that "it absorbs future sight", which ting-lu does literally infinity percent better
  • it's directly outclassed by cresselia in many—in fact, i would even say most—of its non-hazard/knock roles, especially since recover lost its pp advantage over moonlight
  • speaking of recover pp, only 8 of them means that it can't stall out strong attacks with 16 or more pp as easily as it used to
  • obligatory mention that it gets shut down by plenty of normal stallbreaking stuff like encore, taunt, and choice trick
  • at a glance, cosmic power + stored power seems like it could be extremely annoying to break through, but it just takes way too long for stored power to scale enough to start doing actual damage, which allows the opponent ample time to bring in a setup mon and out-setup deoxys with something that gives you +2. and it's hard-walled by dark-types because it doesn't get body press or anything besides stored power that actually deals damage. basically, total kingambit/darkrai/weavile/roaring moon bait
  • being able to viably run teleport is cool and all, but looking at its performances in natdex, it doesn't seem like anyone has been running that in practice. i'm not sure exactly what the reason is for that, so i don't know whether that will translate over to regular ou, but it seems worth mentioning
  • i expect deo-s to be really good, and species clause prevents you from running them both
does anyone else have thoughts about pokemon that they don't think will pan out?
 

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