Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

Given cart accuracy is one of the golden rules of tiering policy, that alone is in fact a sufficient point. We have a complex ban on Sleep. This should not be a complex ban, but a flat ban.
Cart accuracy and complexity are two separate things. All it would take to make Sleep Clause cart-accurate is to implement the clause proposed by MeepBard and others: "As long as you have another option, you can't click a sleep move if an opponent's Pokemon is already asleep." This is a cart-enforceable gentleman's agreement that makes minor changes to sleep strategies (no Spore spam) but otherwise preserves the essence of Sleep Clause Mod, sans the mod.

The complex ban argument has more merit as a matter of general principle, but I have yet to see a solid argument for why Sleep Clause specifically is off the table. Some of the points against it that have come up:
  1. Bans only apply in the builder, not during the game itself. — The Dynamax ban and a hypothetical Tera ban are both in-game bans.
  2. You shouldn't use a complex ban to preserve a mechanic. — That's exactly what we've been debating doing with Tera, with the Council's approval.
  3. The possibility of misclicks creates a cart discrepancy. — Assume the existence of an impartial judge to handle input. Same as move cancellation.
  4. Sleep Clause will set a bad precedent. — As far as I know, Sleep Clause has not led to further complex bans or mods in any modern generation.
I understand if someone wants to ban sleep due to personal preference, questions of competitiveness, or fears of a ban treadmill. But from what I can tell, non-mod Sleep Clause fits squarely within modern tiering practice and at least deserves consideration, rather than outright dismissal. That so much of the discussion still boils down to "Sleep Clause Mod is cartridge inaccurate, therefore sleep must be banned." is baffling to me.
 
[*]You shouldn't use a complex ban to preserve a mechanic. — That's exactly what we've been debating doing with Tera, with the Council's approval.
The only option which appears to still be on the table from what I recall in past discussions is a Tera Blast ban, which would be a move ban, not a complex one. Tera Captains/STAB only/Tera Preview are no longer viewed as feasible options to limit Tera.
 
For the people who don't want a ban on sleep moves, would you be willing for sleep mod clause to be modified to a different version of the clause that still limits the mechanic but can be replicated on cart e.g. greying out sleep moves when your opponent has a sleeping pokemon?

Surely that issue is a separate one to whether restricted sleep is bannable or not?
 
The only option which appears to still be on the table from what I recall in past discussions is a Tera Blast ban, which would be a move ban, not a complex one. Tera Captains/STAB only/Tera Preview are no longer viewed as feasible options to limit Tera.
IIRC, that was due to a shift in popularity rather than policy. Tera Preview was the favorite early on but fell out of favor as the meta developed. I might be remembering wrong, though.

Tera Blast is definitely the simplest option. But given the range of options that were considered, it seems like there's a place for complex bans in modern tiering, at least for major mechanics. We just haven't fleshed out when they are appropriate to use and what the limitations should be. (And if it really just comes down to popularity—complex bans were an option because Tera was too popular to ban outright—that would be useful to know too.)
 
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veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Contributor to Smogon
For the people who don't want a ban on sleep moves, would you be willing for sleep mod clause to be modified to a different version of the clause that still limits the mechanic but can be replicated on cart e.g. greying out sleep moves when your opponent has a sleeping pokemon?

Surely that issue is a separate one to whether restricted sleep is bannable or not?
It is still an arbitrary nerf, and doesn't fix the issue of being uncompetitive (it is not in theory, watch OU circuit playoffs and you'll see tons of darkrais and a couple iron valiants with hypnosis). We can all agree that Last Respects and Rage Fist aren't broken at low base power, but they should still be outright banned instead of just greying them out once they hit a certain base power, as an example of why greying out moves to balance them is a poor idea. It also leads to inevitably having to still create mods but shove them further into a corner, what about choice locks, torments or encores? What if you run out of pp?
 

Baloor

2020 hellom draco
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
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Obviously it never hurts to bring up elements of the tier that you consider unhealthy, however, I feel hard pushing for a Gliscor ban is a bit odd and out of place right now? I don't really even need to list the mons that just kind of blow it up at the moment when Kyurem is broken and rain is one of the best playstyles in the tier. Gliscor doesn't even get close to scratching the top 5 mons that need to be looked at for me personally. Don't get me wrong it's a really good Pokemon but we have more tools than ever to deal with it and right now it just feels really good. Also having a solid reliable defensive presence around right now just feels nice? For basically the entire gen outside wcop meta and a bit of early SCL we have played in a pretty offense strategy dominated tier, having options to switch it up feels good for a change while not having balance or bo too over the top insane. If you are going to push for a Gliscor ban I feel that best odds for that happening would be in a theoretical post Kyurem ban metagame.

On that note, I am really hoping Kyurem gets more attention from the general community. We are kind of focused on sleep/darkrai atm which is fine but I personally believe Kyurem is even unhealthier than those two and would rather see it tossed even before the sleep stuff. If you are spamming offense you might not have an option with Kyurem since Volcarona exists but outside of those teams, Kyurem is probably the most annoying mon to face. If you trying to run a more bulky structure like BO or Balance you are kind of automatically locked into Gking or Clef with spdef investment on your team since nothing else can really comfortably take hits from Kyurem. While these are still good pokemon and would see usage otherwise, they are still shaky when in comes to checking Kyurem. Its very annoying when you're trying to build and have to put 4 different Kyurem outs just to not get automatically folded by it. Without Kyurem, I feel the tier would have a lot more room to be diverse in its more bulky orientated builds. Hell, even offense can be a bit more freed up since even with Volcarona, Kyurem can still chip away since the mons are a lot frailer. He who shall not be named built a fairly popular offense team that had a slowking-galar on it for kyurem and the weathers like a week ago that did well on ladder and okay in tournaments which is just lol. I really think Kyurem is way too polarizing in builder and forces very particular structures and over-compensation, even more so than other top brokens that people will argue. Banning Kyurem would likely be a overall net positive and might even open up more freedom in dealing with other troublesome mons we have currently.

tldr; im tired of using slowking-galar on every not offense team
 
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OHKO Clause isn't an "auto-lose condition", you just outright can't bring OHKO moves, and if you do in a cart battle or something, you've invalided or forfeited that battle as far as Smogon tiers are concerned. Sleep is already unique in this case; instead of auto-losing if you sleep 2 Pokemon, the attempt to sleep the 2nd Pokemon is modified to fail.

Correct, it's not an autolose (although it, Sleep Clause, and others should be), if I recall correctly it /was/ an autofail but I suppose Showdown has changed how Evasion and OHKO moves functioned in sim play. Or maybe I'm suffering from the Mandela Effect. Even now OHKO moves aren't auto-lose, they're entirely banned from entry into OU play. That's entirely on me for assuming a continuity there, because I very much remember OHKO moves used to just fail on you like sleep and evasion moves back in Gen 4.

I really don't care about RBY to be honest, but I think a mod that compensates for a game breaking glitch and is absolutely necessary for the tier to be playable is probably a pretty reasonable exception, and as we'll get to with your 4th point, glitches are not the same as regular game mechanics and shouldn't be treated the same.

That's the exact same reasoning for sleep clause though lol, the entire point was that turning everything into a game of chance for winning speed ties and hitting your Sleep Powders/Spores made the game unplayable. The compromise WAS Sleep Clause, creating a ruleset that made the game competitive while retaining those core mechanics.

Why does a core mechanic being removed actually matter, exactly?

Because the point of competitive policy since the beginning has been to simulate the game mostly faithfully while retaining the core gameplay mechanics. I don't think people fully appreciate the dented can of worms that's going to be opened by entirely shifting how we make policy simply because some people don't want to play around a mechanic that's been around since the beginning. Again, are we going to ban Confusion-inducing moves? Paralysis? How about Serene Grace?

Personally, I don't really care about Darkrai and I genuinely think there's an argument to be made that Valiant isn't healthy even without Hypnosis. That said, any decision made in the context of SV OU doesn't necessarily retroactively apply to old tiers, unless a broader tiering decision is made or the council members of those given tiers decide to adopt the decision as well. Lastly I'm not sure what your point is with that last bit. Very few people have suggested changing how Sleep works, so that idea has basically no traction. I agree it would be contradictory, but it's not an idea that has any meaningful support.

It absolutely should retroactively apply to old tiers. The implication here is that some tiers can/should be more uncompetitive than others when that's not at all how policy was made then or now. Simply put, policy is supposed to be applicable across generations. When I'm talking about changing the RNG, I'm talking about preventing Freezing altogether. If we change Sleep Clause Mod to a ban on Sleep moves, there is no reason for keeping the Freeze Clause Mod instead of banning Ice Beam and Blizzard.

Yeah, I think this is non-sense to be honest lol. Glitches are by definition unintentional interactions and therefore not intended game mechanics, so treating unambiguous glitches differently is not a contradiction and makes perfect sense. If the fact that glitches have not been allowed is your only other example of Smogon deviating from cartridge behaviours, then I think that's a point against your argument rather than for it.

There are plenty of examples of glitch implementation in simulations. Someone brought up Hyper Beam, but I think the one that REALLY stands out is Psychic's immunity to Ghost attacks. The Pomeg Glitch also comes to mind, but I haven't paid enough attention to LC policy developments to know if that's still valid precedent. There are also overflow issues that were clearly not intended but a result of cartridge hardware limitations. It's pretty clear these glitches weren't intended but were implemented anyways because developer intent is entirely irrelevant to Smogon's policymaking.
Comments in bold to address responses to multiple different arguments

You keep ignoring the main point we are making

We find the very existence of a sleep clause mod to be a problem, and that it should be removed. we then theorize sleep would be too strong and need a quick ban once the illogical exception is removed.
This is extremely misleading, the current discourse about Sleep Clause emerged entirely from conversations about Darkrai and Iron Valiant. Policy questions are just an older (read: largely dead), confluent argument to those conversations about OU abusers that we wouldn't be having otherwise. Banning Sleep moves and removing Sleep Clause is the actual illogical exception here.

Y'all will say ANYTHING to keep sleep clause in place holy shit.
Also I’ve been looking through the comment section of Blunder’s video and I’ve been seeing shit like “Ban Darkrai, Iron Valiant, and Alolan Ninetales instead.” I don’t get why people are so keen on keeping a mechanic already neutered by a mod.
Banning Darkrai and Iron Valiant is literally just a precedent that's existed since the start of PR, y'all will say ANYTHING to avoid acknowledging the fact that your favourite mons shouldn't be allowed in standard play. Again, using your own reasoning, there is no reason why RBY should ever keep Freeze Clause Mod and allow Ice Beam or Blizzard. After all, it's just a matter of keeping a mechanic that's already neutered by a mod. At the end of the day, you people need to come to terms with the fact that what you're arguing is to arbitrarily change competitive policy entirely because you don't want to have to put up with Sleep, and that your position is no different from past discussions on banning Confusion inducement, Serene Grace, Gen 1 Ice Moves, Scald, or entry hazards.


Equating OHKO Clause and a theoretical change to Sleep Clause are too entirely different things, you cannot argue they are the same thing in good faith. Restrictions like Moody Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause and Swagger Clause are all builder restrictions, they do not affect the battle itself, but only what you can bring in to the battle.

Smogon OU functions under the assumption that both players have already brought a legal team, the "autofail" for using an OHKO move doesn't exist because it assumes that the player has already brought a legal team. If you want to head into the semantics of possible failstates if we were to port to cartridge, there is technically a disconnect that exists between the two, simply due to showdown's validator:

Showdown Failstate:
- You run out of heathy Pokemon

Cartridge Failstate:
- You run out of healthy Pokemon
- You bring an invalid team

Saying that an altered sleep clause is "the same" is just wrong, because it would add a 2nd Failstate to Showdown rules, as well as a 3rd Failstate to Cartridge rules. It would also actively change your options in game, which any of the other clauses don't actively do.
I've acknowledged that my information on OHKO clause is very dated so I'm going to ignore that part (which you are correct on) and address the cartridge failstate argument. Establishing conditions for a loss (auto-lose) is a perfectly valid option because conditions for victory or loss are entirely dependent on rules imposed by external actors (whether that's a tournament host or PR). There is also little reason that we cannot implement conditions for an automatic loss/disqualification as opposed to an autofail for sleep moves past the parameters established by Sleep Clause, with the exception of the point brought up by Earthworm in DPP. When I say it accomplishes the "same thing," I am talking about keeping the practical effect of the ruleset on the metagame the same as before while being more faithful in simulating the cartridge.
 

Pluim

formerly goodra4thewin
but the pokemon (especially darkrai atm) are not banworthy apart from the brokenness of the status they induce. also ignoring the issue of sleep clause will eventually get us into this position again.
That's like arguing to ban Quiver Dance previously when Volc was banned. Just because without it Volc would be balanced doesn't mean that it is the problem. Just because Darkrai is fine without sleep doesn't necessarily mean sleep is broken.
 
Rant:
I wasn't completely sold on sleep being uncompetitive, but after losing twice with av primarina vs darkrai, I'm fully convinced it's uncompetitive. I lose a 1v1 matchup where I net a kill on darkrai but I lose because I get slept in two separate games. They didn't even Tera for the potential miss.

Even worse It's actually popping up pretty commonly now where before I hadn't even seen it. I'm getting punished for making the good play. I literally lived everything that darkrai could throw out but I lost because they got lucky enough. Games vs spore users I have to sack a mon and play at a deficit off rip just so something more valuable isn't lost. Sleep is uncompetitive.
 

CobsonYaoi

formerly Holesum420
Banning Darkrai and Iron Valiant is literally just a precedent that's existed since the start of PR, y'all will say ANYTHING to avoid acknowledging the fact that your favourite mons shouldn't be allowed in standard play.
You wanna talk about precedent? Cyclizar was unbanned when people began to realize that Shed Tail itself was the problem because Orthworm started abusing it. Houndstone was unbanned alongside Last Respects getting banned when Basculegion gained the move. Darkrai, Iron Valiant, and Ninetales-A are only being discussed because of Hypnosis, so all three should be banned? Fuck no. If some Pokemon are being problematic because of a single move, that move is the thing that will get banned. Hypnosis is already neutered too so it should really speak to you what should be banned.
Again, using your own reasoning, there is no reason why RBY should ever keep Freeze Clause Mod and allow Ice Beam or Blizzard. After all, it's just a matter of keeping a mechanic that's already neutered by a mod.
Yes I agree. There is no reason why RBY should have a freeze clause and I believe that Ice Beam and Blizzard should be allowed, but I literally never played that gen in my life so that's up for the RBY player base to decide.
At the end of the day, you people need to come to terms with the fact that what you're arguing is to arbitrarily change competitive policy entirely because you don't want to have to put up with Sleep, and that your position is no different from past discussions on banning Confusion inducement, Serene Grace, Gen 1 Ice Moves, Scald, or entry hazards.
My guy SLEEP CLAUSE IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH MODERN TIERING POLICY. Sleep Clause is a mod that produces outcomes that are literally impossible to happen in the game PS is supposed to simulate. Removing sleep clause and banning sleep moves makes us actually consistent with the tiering policy.


Tldr; It's stupid to ban a bunch of mons over one or two moves they share, and those moves are already neutered by a mod mind you. Removing SC and blanket banning sleep moves removes a mod that goes against tiering policy and we won't have to ban like five Pokemon over it.
 
Sorry if this has been dealt with but I'm at work and can only skim through the posts, but regarding the Species Clause discussion, how would you feel about this wording?

Multiple forms of the same Pokémon with a certain Dex Number can be used, as long as these forms are not interchangeable, have different typing, different abilities and/or different stat spreads, and can be obtained in-game at the same time.

Relevant mons that would not be allowed to be run at the same time:
-In-battle change forms (such as Castform, Meloetta, Wishiwashi, Terapagos, Palafin, Mega-evos, Dynamax...)
-Pikachu
-Unown
-Spinda
-Deoxys
-Gastrodon
-Rotom
-Dialga, Palkia and Giratina
-Shaymin
-Arceus
-Deerling and Sawsbuck
-Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus and Enamorus
-Keldeo
-Genesect
-Vivillon
-Flabebe, Floette and Florges
-Zygarde
-Hoopa
-Oricorio
-Necrozma
-Magearna
-Toxtricity
-Sinistea, Polteageist, Poltchageist and Sinistcha
-Alcremie
-Zarude
-Calyrex
-Maushold
-Dudunsparce

Would allow:
-All regional forms
-Wormadam
-Basculin
-Pumpkaboo and Gourgeist
-Lycanroc
-Urshifu
-Squawkabilly
-Ursaluna
-Gimmighoul
-Ogerpon

Just throwing my two cents out there.
 
Sorry if this has been dealt with but I'm at work and can only skim through the posts, but regarding the Species Clause discussion, how would you feel about this wording?

Multiple forms of the same Pokémon with a certain Dex Number can be used, as long as these forms are not interchangeable, have different typing, different abilities and/or different stat spreads, and can be obtained in-game at the same time.

Relevant mons that would not be allowed to be run at the same time:
-In-battle change forms (such as Castform, Meloetta, Wishiwashi, Terapagos, Palafin, Mega-evos, Dynamax...)
-Pikachu
-Unown
-Spinda
-Deoxys
-Gastrodon
-Rotom
-Dialga, Palkia and Giratina
-Shaymin
-Arceus
-Deerling and Sawsbuck
-Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus and Enamorus
-Keldeo
-Genesect
-Vivillon
-Flabebe, Floette and Florges
-Zygarde
-Hoopa
-Oricorio
-Necrozma
-Magearna
-Toxtricity
-Sinistea, Polteageist, Poltchageist and Sinistcha
-Alcremie
-Zarude
-Calyrex
-Maushold
-Dudunsparce

Would allow:
-All regional forms
-Wormadam
-Basculin
-Pumpkaboo and Gourgeist
-Lycanroc
-Urshifu
-Squawkabilly
-Ursaluna
-Gimmighoul
-Ogerpon

Just throwing my two cents out there.
Bro forgot the bois miniors!
:sv/minior::sv/minior-orange::sv/minior-yellow::sv/minior-green::sv/minior-blue::sv/minior-indigo::sv/minior-violet:
(so your saying my double ursaluna tr is finally ok?)
 
It is still an arbitrary nerf, and doesn't fix the issue of being uncompetitive (it is not in theory, watch OU circuit playoffs and you'll see tons of darkrais and a couple iron valiants with hypnosis). We can all agree that Last Respects and Rage Fist aren't broken at low base power, but they should still be outright banned instead of just greying them out once they hit a certain base power, as an example of why greying out moves to balance them is a poor idea. It also leads to inevitably having to still create mods but shove them further into a corner, what about choice locks, torments or encores? What if you run out of pp?
I know what you mean, as someone who would support a sleep moves ban. But surely there must be a compromise where we can make the clause reproduceable on cart, while being acceptable to those who don't see sleep as an issue.

I'm just thinking surely we can tackle the two issues people have one at a time rather than all at once.
 
So with pechurant being out for a week, what are everyone's thoughts on it?

So far, I've found it to be an excellent Pokemon on bully offense teams with partners like Landorus-T and Hatterene. Parting Shot is really good support for these guys and it can stick around for a while with its good physical bulk + Recover. Malignant Chain + Tera Fairy can let it emergency check some mons like Roaring moon, meowscarada, and Weavile as well.

That being said, it suffers a bit from low damage output + wanting to allocate its EVs in too many spots. I think max speed is required, but you really want thr physical bulk to take hits from stuff like ogerpon and Tusk better.

How good have players found other sets like NP?
 
Bro forgot the bois miniors!
:sv/minior::sv/minior-orange::sv/minior-yellow::sv/minior-green::sv/minior-blue::sv/minior-indigo::sv/minior-violet:
(so your saying my double ursaluna tr is finally ok?)
Then I need to rework the wording bc I need to see that one gigachad bringing the sixtuple minior team

And I mean if we want to allow both Zapdos in OU bc they work fundamentally very different, then yes, both Ursas should be allowed at the same time, barred if any one of them gets banned by a 93% majority suspect test
 
You wanna talk about precedent? Cyclizar was unbanned when people began to realize that Shed Tail itself was the problem because Orthworm started abusing it. Houndstone was unbanned alongside Last Respects getting banned when Basculegion gained the move. Darkrai, Iron Valiant, and Ninetales-A are only being discussed because of Hypnosis, so all three should be banned? Fuck no. If some Pokemon are being problematic because of a single move, that move is the thing that will get banned.

Yes I agree. There is no reason why RBY should have a freeze clause and I believe that Ice Beam and Blizzard should be allowed, but I literally never played that gen in my life so that's up for the RBY player base to decide.

My guy SLEEP CLAUSE IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH MODERN TIERING POLICY. Sleep Clause is a mod that produces outcomes that are literally impossible to happen in the game PS is supposed to simulate. Removing sleep clause and banning sleep moves makes us actually consistent with the tiering policy.


Tldr; It's stupid to ban a bunch of mons over one or two moves they share, and those moves are already neutered by a mod mind you. Removing SC and blanket banning sleep moves removes a mod that goes against tiering policy and we won't have to ban like five Pokemon over it.

Your argument would make a lot more sense if we weren't talking a Pokemon that just dropped down a month ago, another that has been constantly subject to scrutiny for a potential suspect before Hypnosis became *marginally* popular (it's <6% lol), and another that doesn't even use Hypnosis a tenth of the time in UU and only uses it in OU 22% of the time. It's also my favourite offensive support and the centerpiece for one of the best archetypes in the OU meta, but I don't think Ninetales-A is a particularly strong case for getting rid of Hypnosis, usually because you're wasting a turn of advantage for establishing a win condition when you've already halved damage. Hypnosis Gengar is bad, and most potential Hypnosis users in general don't use it because it's a bad option. Out of the actual sleep abusers of the metagame, only two broken mons stand out, not five, and it's because they have a shitload more going for them than Hypnosis. No one is making an argument that Brute Bonnet and Amoongus are broken, either. I don't think that it should be up to RBY players to decide whether they keep Freeze Clause, because what we're talking about here is a complete change in not just in how we understand Pokemon should be simulated, but how we determine what's uncompetitive as well. That sort of thing always has ramifications for future policy actions in retro metagames. If we are banning moves that inflict uncompetitive status conditions as the new precedent, then all moves that inflict Freeze need to be banned, and the only moves that do are Ice Beam and Blizzard.
 
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Then I need to rework the wording bc I need to see that one gigachad bringing the sixtuple minior team

And I mean if we want to allow both Zapdos in OU bc they work fundamentally very different, then yes, both Ursas should be allowed at the same time, barred if any one of them gets banned by a 93% majority suspect test
Talking about UUbers since TR is honestly a very strong strategy there. I can see peeps using 2 ursa 2 magearna 2 urshifu
 
I've been overseas and haven't played in 2 weeks or so, so I'm pretty surprised to come back to this discussion about sleep moves. I always thought Encore valiant was far superior to hypnosis since it still allowed setup but you weren't limited by the 40% miss chance. I think darkrai itself needs to be taking more of the blame here. It boosts way quicker with nasty plot and gets the 12% chip every turn as well. Almost No one thought sleep was game breaking before darkrai dropped. There was always a complaint here and there but people hated freeze more than sleep. This discussion feels weird to me, its like no one wants to admit how strong darkrai is.
 
So with pechurant being out for a week, what are everyone's thoughts on it?

So far, I've found it to be an excellent Pokemon on bully offense teams with partners like Landorus-T and Hatterene. Parting Shot is really good support for these guys and it can stick around for a while with its good physical bulk + Recover. Malignant Chain + Tera Fairy can let it emergency check some mons like Roaring moon, meowscarada, and Weavile as well.

That being said, it suffers a bit from low damage output + wanting to allocate its EVs in too many spots. I think max speed is required, but you really want thr physical bulk to take hits from stuff like ogerpon and Tusk better.

How good have players found other sets like NP?
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 112 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain
- Hex
- Parting Shot
- Recover
This is the set I've been using, for my team it's essentially been either strong matchup but difficult to get in at a good spot, lacking bulk, or essentially a sack. I've come to essentially the same conclusions as you, especially in the power department. I crept for adamant rillaboom, but it hasn't been common enough to really warrant it I'm thinking. Along with that, I'll probably change tera to better take advantage of that phys Def.

I paired it with raging bolt, which has been putting in work. Amazing mon, I've grown to be quite fond of it. And have av primarina and skarmory as the defensive backbone. Both are extremely good, and find strong usage every game. Can't recommend them enough.

It's not a terrible mon, but it's not extremely viable I'd say. More of something interesting to use every once in a while.
 

Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
I have no issue with Sleep Clause not being perfectly replicable on cartridge. PS is a simulator, after all. Removing a status mechanic from the game because Sleep Clause is "unfaithful" to the cartridge experience is silly; Smogon's ban list is not even replicable on cartridge.
I have seen this take all the damn time for more than a decade and it still baffles me how people don't get it (sorry for singling you out Copland, but it's true).

Have you guys never played pokeymans with your friends in middle/high school? No legendaries allowed, Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Ember/Fly Charizard, trying to Hydro Pump a Ho-oh with Suicune, Red Gyarados procs more secondary effects so it's cheap, etc? You can make up any kind of ruleset/banlist you want on the spot, you just follow the rule/do not use the damn thing/ignore it and make your friend seethe. Even the 48 pixels HP bar can be done IRL by a gentleman's agreement of telling your opponent your real HP (it's stupid, but still doable).

The exception to this is Sleep Clause, which is why we call it a "mod". You literally cannot make sleeping moves fail if there's already a sleeping mon on the opposing team. We have never had this in the main games (it's a mod from Pokemon Stadium, which iirc was never used in official tournaments), and from the looks of VGC, never will. It's not even a relic from the past games, it's some weird rock we found on the sand and thought was proof that the aliens built the pyramids but was actually left behind by some rude tourist.


For sure I understand that its not replicable on cart. But why is it an issue to gen 9’s metagame? Since that the whole point of this discussion.
"Man Sleep sure is broken/uncompetitive"
"Yeah we should ban it"
"Nah bro we restrict it through a complex ban for [reasons] trust me bro"
"uh okay, guess it will solve it"
*two sleep abusers hit the World Trade Center*

You said it yourself, unrestricted Sleep is uncompetitive. That's the base state of Sleep. Sleep Clause is the palliative. If even with the palliative we are having issues with Sleep abusers, then the palliative was useless. There's something either in the abusers or in the condition itself that should be addressed directly, without the palliative.
 
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Not even Gliscor fans like you can come up with a reason on why it is ok that doesn't sound like an absolute joke.
buddy i wrote a whole essay on why gliscor is fine right now. here, i'll say it again since you obviously didn't read it:
since the topic of gliscor came up, here are my thoughts on it.

gliscor was unequivocally broken in dlc1, but i don't think it is right now. very strong? yes. the best spikes setter in this endless bloody war against hazards? without a doubt. annoying as shit? absolutely. but banworthy? i don't think so, and here's why:

PART 1: NEW ANSWERS

between new moves, returning mons, and expanded movepools, dlc2 introduced some options that can beat gliscor 1v1 fairly easily:
  • :weavile: thanks to regaining triple axel, weavile is much more splashable than before and has a much easier time forcing tera water on gliscor. if something else on the team has tera'd, weavile is an offensive hard-counter to gliscor and can even use its protect turns to set up
  • :meowscarada: for some reason, meowscarada also gets triple axel. (i'm not complaining, it just doesn't make much sense to me flavor-wise.) this lets it threaten gliscor similarly to weavile, with the added bonus of being able to hit it really hard with flower trick after tera water
  • :primarina: primarina might fall out of ou eventually, but it's still a legitimately usable thing and i'm absolutely here for it. liquid voice psychic noise has the benefit of not only heavily denting gliscor but also preventing poison heal from working for a couple turns, so even if it does decide to tera, it still has to briefly deal with the fact that entropy exists. if gliscor's running knock off over toxic, psychic noise draining kiss primarina is actually capable of stalling out gliscor if it teras
  • :darkrai: lead darkrai forces a 50/50 onto lead gliscor—if gliscor protects turn 1, it can nasty plot and proceed to start going wild; if it doesn't, darkrai can click the funny cheese move and potentially let gliscor get knocked before getting poisoned later in the game. because of how dangerous giving even a single free turn to darkrai is, this is one of the only lead matchups that gliscor might not want to just automatically turn 1 protect on. also, other darkrai sets that carry ice beam give gliscor a lot of trouble, as strong special attackers with ice moves tend to do
  • :deoxys-speed: heavily dependent on the set and positioning, but deo-s can solidly beat gliscor sometimes. if you lead with nasty plot deo-s and they lead with gliscor, gliscor will always protect turn 1 expecting knock off, so that's just a free plot and it's forced to tera or switch to avoid the incoming ice beam. ice beam sets in general are bad for gliscor, especially if something else on the team has burned tera. also, skill swap is a very niche option on deo-s that is incredibly situational and usually bad but can work hilariously well against gliscor
  • :skarmory: this doesn't do jack shit against gliscor offensively, but it hard-walls the eq/toxic set, which means you can just either whirlwind it out (if you're carrying that), pp-stall it, or wait for it to give up and switch, then deal with it later after putting yourself in a better position to
  • :serperior: i mean you just kinda sub and then click the leaf storm button, not exactly a grand strategy behind this one
  • :kyurem: THE BIG ONE. i saved the best for last here—kyurem is the offensive gliscor answer. physical sets force tera water to avoid being slaughtered by icicle spear, then get ddanced on during their protect turns and slaughtered by scale shot anyway. special sets just click freeze-dry and kill it whether it goes tera water or not. this matchup is practically unwinnable unless gliscor runs a different ice-resisting tera than water, and most of those get bonked by earth power, the one exception being… tera ice. and no one wants to be the person running tera ice gliscor
now, you'll notice a lot of these assume gliscor is going to be tera water, which might make you wonder about tera dragon, which was a somewhat commonly seen alternative in dlc1. that brings me to my next point:

PART 2: EIGHT FUCKING DRAGON TYPES

as we all know, dlc2 came with a massive rise in the quantity and quality of legal dragon-types. in addition to the existing dragapult, dragonite, and walking wake, we now also have raging bolt, gouging fire, roaring moon, kyurem, and archaludon, all of which are top-tier mons at the absolute minimum. this has come with a concurrent increase in viability to things that answer dragon-types well and a decrease in viability to things that don't. this means that gliscor's dlc1 answers that it would run tera dragon for—mainly waterpon and non-ice-beam manaphy—are waaaaay less common, and dragon as a defensive tera type in general is not great when the average ou match is seeing so many more dragon, fairy, and ice moves. thus, gliscor is kind of pigeonholed into a single good defensive tera type, which makes it a lot easier to predict if and when it clicks the button. in theory, it could get around this by running tera fairy, but that just shifts the problem from "eight fucking dragon types" to "seven fucking steel types", two of which are top 3 in usage

so gliscor's got more answers and its tera is easier to play around. but it's still plenty strong and can be very annoying if it does pop that tera. unfortunately, popping tera early is risky and gliscor really doesn't like doing it. which is a shame, because gliscor needs to be a water-type more often now thanks to:

PART 3: CLIMATE CHANGE

weather has made a comeback in a big way. every single weather condition got at least one new abuser in this dlc, and most of that is bad for gliscor on some level. here's how it breaks down:
  • :smooth rock: sand is the only weather gliscor isn't really worried about and it didn't get anything to directly contend with gliscor, but the return of excadrill means we have one more hazard remover, which means one more opportunity to undo gliscor's spikes progress. it's not much on its own, but even the small indirect nerfs add up. also, sand is by far the least relevant weather right now, which means that when a form of weather is up, it's most likely gonna be something that fucks over gliscor somehow
  • :icy rock: hail got kyurem, gliscor's worst matchup. not much to say here that wasn't already said earlier, kyurem claps gliscor six ways from sunday. alolan ninetales itself has also seen a bump in usage because of kyurem, and any mon with access to freeze-dry is a mon gliscor is very scared of
  • :heat rock: sun went from being a regular-sized problem for gliscor to a massive problem. in dlc1, walking wake was a terrible matchup for it already, but sun itself wasn't super popular for a number of reasons. now it's back in full force, bolstered by the new protosynthesis mons and the return of volcarona and roaring moon. despite not particularly liking the prospect of being stalled out by toxic/protect or having to eat an earthquake, all of those mons are threatening to gliscor on some level thanks to their setup capabilities as well as their ability to just hit it neutrally really fucking hard. and of course walking wake is still there, giving the exact same amount of problems to gliscor as before but more likely to have sun behind it
  • :damp rock: yes, gliscor can tera water to deal with rain's setters and water-type abusers. but those aren't the reason that rain got popular all of a sudden. the one doing the heavy lifting on that front is archaludon, which can massively punish gliscor after a tera with electro shot. if gliscor doesn't tera, it just kinda gets run over by the rest of the rain team
so, in conclusion, that's why i feel that gliscor is not broken at this current period of sv ou: new direct answers, an environment that restricts its tera options, and shaky matchups against the three most relevant weathers. i do suspect there will eventually be bans that remove or hurt counterplay to gliscor, and it might cross that line again at some point in the future, but right now i think gliscor has enough new counterplay to it to no longer be broken
 
I have seen this take all the damn time for more than a decade and it still baffles me how people don't get it (sorry for singling you out Copland, but it's true).

Have you guys never played pokeymans with your friends in middle/high school? No legendaries allowed, Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Ember/Fly Charizard, trying to Hydro Pump a Ho-oh with Suicune, Red Gyarados procs more secondary effects so it's cheap, etc? You can make up any kind of ruleset/banlist you want on the spot, you just follow the rule/do not use the damn thing/ignore it and make your friend seethe. Even the 48 pixels HP bar can be done IRL by a gentleman's agreement of telling your opponent your real HP (it's stupid, but still doable).

The exception to this is Sleep Clause, which is why we call it a "mod". You literally cannot make sleeping moves fail if there's already a sleeping mon on the opposing team. We have never had this in the main games (it's a mod from Pokemon Stadium, which iirc was never used in official tournaments), and from the looks of VGC, never will. It's not even a relic from the past games, it's some weird rock we found on the sand and thought was proof that the aliens built the pyramids but was actually left behind by some rude tourist.
As someone who has only experienced SV through Showdown I’ll admit I may have a bit of a disconnect compared to those who own the physical game. It is a relic though, both Stadium games feature Sleep Clause, or at least a version of it(I believe the only difference is that Rest will prevent other Pokemon from being put to sleep).
 
So with pechurant being out for a week, what are everyone's thoughts on it?

So far, I've found it to be an excellent Pokemon on bully offense teams with partners like Landorus-T and Hatterene. Parting Shot is really good support for these guys and it can stick around for a while with its good physical bulk + Recover. Malignant Chain + Tera Fairy can let it emergency check some mons like Roaring moon, meowscarada, and Weavile as well.

That being said, it suffers a bit from low damage output + wanting to allocate its EVs in too many spots. I think max speed is required, but you really want thr physical bulk to take hits from stuff like ogerpon and Tusk better.

How good have players found other sets like NP?
Brand new Pokemon with 600 BST and unique mechanics/moves: I Sleep.
Hypnosis is being spammed: Real shit.
 

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