Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

What if we just did nothing? It's quite clear that the current arguments only ferment a brooding unease that can't easily be rectified by any policy change, because there's always a contingent that'll believe that it was clearly the wrong choice. Doing nothing, as a policy, would quell all the arguments, and let us get back to actual metagame discussion, instead of a meta game discussion.
"if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." you can't say "no tiering decision will please everyone and therefore we should do nothing" because the choice to do nothing is also a decision that won't please everyone. in fact, it'll please no one
Saying Gliscor meta was healther than 5 mon core meta is like saying that someone with one variant of the flu is healthier than someone with a different flavor of the flu. It's so marginal it's not relevant because at the end of the day the meta is still unhealthy. I used to be a massive Gliscor defender but I don't think it's healthy for the tier anymore.
pretty wild that you decided to switch positions from "wrong about gliscor" to "wrong about gliscor for the exact opposite reason"
 

senorlopez

Formerly Ricardo [old]
It won't have a cascade effect on other generations, sleep clause will be judged by its own councils in each generation in a case by case basis as stated here.
I should have communicated this better. You will have set precedent for banning a core universal game mechanic partly or wholly on merit of cart accuracy which will put pressure on other tier leaders to do the same.

They don't have autocratic jurisdiction though, they can only have a quickban vote if something gets voted on to be problematic on tiering surveys.
Problematic is not clear and is discretionary. If there was a clear metric (if there is then tell me, that's what I was trying to find before) that outlined what problematic meant, then I wouldn't have an issue with that. This doesn't begin to touch on the point that surveys (and consequently the data sourced from them) can be easily manipulated and should only be preferred to a community suspect when we don't have enough time for a suspect (which we do).
Bro I am tera hater #1. I also think tera should be banned for being the common factor of making many mons broken, but tera hasn't been nerfed yet like sleep has.
Why does it matter if sleep has already been nerfed before? We have had a solution to sleep for over a decade now which has arguably kept it in check. It's a fine compromise between keeping a core mechanic of the game and balancing how egregious it would be if left uncheck. if it's unbalanced as is, suspect test it. If we want to get rid of it because it's outdated then why have we not modified other clauses such as species clause to accommodate for the plethora of new forms? I'm just asking for consistency.

edit: won't be replying to more posts today (hurrah!)
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
"if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." you can't say "no tiering decision will please everyone and therefore we should do nothing" because the choice to do nothing is also a decision that won't please everyone. in fact, it'll please no one
"If you don't decide, you've decided" is the insane political ramblings i'd never expect from this forum lol. Besides, im pretty sure it will please the people that do think the current system is fine.
 
"If you don't decide, you've decided" is the insane political ramblings i'd never expect from this forum lol. Besides, im pretty sure it will please the people that do think the current system is fine.
It's about how many people you will piss off. At the end of the day, there will always be someone or a collection of people who will not be happy with a decision, even if it was to say cure cancer, there will be one person out there who will hate it. Don't know who, but they will. If a decision will piss off a large majority of the playerbase, then maybe we shouldn't make that decision, but that's why we have a community survey and vote to decide these things. If you didn't vote in it, you have to accept that the people who did vote made that decision. It's alright if you can't get voting requirements, but don't complain and have a tantrum if you don't like the decision.
TLDR, someone will complain, so screw them and make a decision, which is better than an insane back and forth that is going on.
 

Srn

The Monstrous Bird of New England
is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Moderator
I should have communicated this better. You will have set precedent for banning a core universal game mechanic partly or wholly on merit of cart accuracy which will put pressure on other tier leaders to do the same.
I think this pressure is being overstated, and action against sleep won't be taken unless it's a problem in that generation.

Problematic is not clear and is discretionary. If there was a clear metric (if there is then tell me, that's what I was trying to find before) that outlined what problematic meant, then I wouldn't have an issue with that. This doesn't begin to touch on the point that surveys (and consequently the data sourced from them) can be easily manipulated and should only be preferred to a community suspect when we don't have enough time for a suspect (which we do).
I take it you're not too familiar with how tiering surveys have been run in SV OU? Read it all here. Everybody votes on a certain mon/mechanic from 1-5, 1 being balanced, 5 being banworthy. Qualified votes (voters who have played in tours, qualified for suspect tests, are at the top of ladder, etc) are the ones that get the most attention. When something gets above a 4.0 qualified score, that's generally quickban territory, and pokemon like Ogerpon-Hearthflame and Baxcalibur are examples of this. This has been a great time-saver, much better than a drawn out suspect test but also not completely "autocratic."

I also will need a source on "surveys can be easily manipulated." Now that surveys are going to be forum based and tied to smogon accounts, I think they're actually more secure than when they were just google forms, and our dear leader Finch has done a lot of work and tossed out lots of phony votes in the past.

It's not like surveys and suspect tests are mutually exclusive either. We do a survey first, see the data, and then decide if a quickban, suspect test, or no action are most appropriate.

Why does it matter if sleep has already been nerfed before? We have had a solution to sleep for over a decade now which has arguably kept it in check. It's a fine compromise between keeping a core mechanic of the game and balancing how egregious it would be if left uncheck. if it's unbalanced as is, suspect test it. If we want to get rid of it because it's outdated then why have we not modified other clauses such as species clause to accommodate for the plethora of new forms? I'm just asking for consistency.

edit: won't be replying to more posts today (hurrah!)
I guess it doesn't really matter if it's been nerfed before or not, because it should have never been nerfed to begin with. I bring up baton pass more as a cautionary tale, something that should have never been complex banned to begin with, but because it was, the argument to just ban baton pass outright got much stronger. I really don't see why we need to hang on to "core mechanics" if our silly complex nerf is no longer keeping it in check. If you want to modify species clause to accommodate new forms, I'd recommend starting a policy review thread, that's out of my jurisdiction.
 

CobsonYaoi

formerly Holesum420
Is running Sticky Web so Kyurem is able to put EVs into both attack stats a good idea? I’m thinking about making a Rimbombee + Kyurem + Glowking team before Kyurem is inevitably banned.
I apologize in advance if I take a while to respond, I’m busy furiously typing away my response to some sleep posts.
 
Is running Sticky Web so Kyurem is able to put EVs into both attack stats a good idea? I’m thinking about making a Rimbombee + Kyurem + Glowking team before Kyurem is inevitably banned.
I apologize in advance if I take a while to respond, I’m busy furiously typing away my response to some sleep posts.
Probably not, because mixed attackers don't usually work that well. The only mixed attacker that actually works right now is iron valiant using cc on special sets. Sticky webs is also not that great right now, so it probably isn't the best. Still, a cool idea and maybe with some tweaks, it could work.
 
Two Minior minor points, and then you all can get back to talking about Pecharunt Kyurem Lokix.
nooo! I read this and I actually thought you were going to talk about Minior for a sec. If you can't tell by the profile pic and signature... MINIOR BEST.

(i'm deliberately trying not to talk in the sleep discussion, dragging a meteor into a black hole isn't a good thing)
 
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Sorry Just A Shroom God I wanted to let the sleep conversation stand as I too was thinking it was getting repetitive. But here we are. I'd like to just respond to a few new arguments I haven't heard before.

Because no one has made a good replacement!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know why this is so hard to get! The ideas presented to replace Sleep Mod Clause, that are not just ban sleep moves, are terrible!

"Grey out the moves" you can literally still have scenarios where you are forced into Sleep move again, and thus this is not a viable solution.

ESPECIALLY adding a second win condition by making your opponent sleep two Pokemon. That is a TERRIBLE idea. The reason we have Sleep Mod Clause in the first place is because of this exact mentality: "We want to preserve Sleep, what is the best way to do it." None of the "clever" clause ideas have been good. None of them work. You are not clever for thinking "lol just make it work like on cart, it ends the game," we literally made a mod for it because that scenario is dogshit and makes the game worse!

The best way to fix Sleep is just to mod the game. Which is an unacceptable decision.
First argument I've heard like this (aside from Cuddly's post which I read at the same time as this; I'm responding to this cuz its a bit more fleshed out) so the "idk whats so hard to get" is hard to say when its an argument not being made (to me at least). Really I haven't seen enough discussion on MeepBard's implementation of Sleep (greying out) at all, it seems largely ignored from what I can tell. As far as I am aware, they have proposed solutions to the issues people suggest. Choice Trick or Encore into spamming sleep moves only works in a scenario where they cannot switch, if they can just switch they would in that scenario. In cases where they are trapped or they are the last mon, MeepBard's suggestion of just allowing the second sleep to get off does not seem to break anything at all. If the opponent is going out of their way almost to force them to spam sleep moves, than they should have to deal with multiple pokemon asleep. The only realistic scenario this would happen in would be in cases where the sleep user is the last mon, in which case why would they encore them into a sleep move?

The proposal of having a gentleman's agreement to not click the Sleep Move doesn't take away these artificial gamestates. If you get Encored or Tricked a Choice Scarf, you may still want to Spore something, but once somebody is asleep, then what? The proposal would artificially create a forced switch on the Spore user, even if the optimal play is to stay in and keep Sporing. Should the simulator just gray out all your moves for you in this scenario, where a cartridge would not?
This scenario defeats the purpose of the 'gentleman's agreement'. "The optimal play is to keep Sporing" does not really matter in cases where you already agreed at the top of the battle to not sleep more than one pokemon. By the same logic, the 'optimal' play is to bring Flutter Mane and just click buttons. If youre saying the optimal play is to break the gentleman's agreement, youre not really talking about OU anymore.


By this logic, should we have banned the multiple problematic users of baton pass after attempting complex bans on baton pass itself and seeing baton pass chains still be potent? After we limited baton pass to 1 per team, do you think the correct tiering action would be to ban smeargle, espeon, scolipede, etc? At some point, you have to call out the common thread and act on that instead, rather than waiting to see if people can still find ways to make sleep/baton pass uncompetitive with different mons.

To use the Baton Pass example again, when it was being discussed for tiering action, it was obviously done so with the most potent abusers in mind. It was still Baton Pass that got axed, not scolipede/espeon/smeargle/etc, and the baton pass abusers went on to be perfectly healthy (and arguably bad) parts of the meta. I think it would have been silly to ban the above 3 mons and just cross our fingers to see if baton pass found a way to be broken again. Likewise, if we discard the most potent abusers of sleep, I really don't want to waste more time finding out if new ones crop up. I would rather axe the uncompetitive mechanic at hand, axe the complex nerf that is now failing to keep it under control, and cleanly reduce variance and RNG fishing in OU today.
Baton pass is a similar situation but not exactly the same. In this case, you're phrasing it as 'we only knew three pokemon were uncompetitive with Baton Pass'. But if you go back and look at past threads around the banning of baton pass, you'll realize it was far more than just Scolipede, Espeon, and Smeargle being talked about. There were other pokemon that were causing problematic scenarios and even additional pokemon you could mention in the way of: "If we ban Scolipede, don't we still have a similar problematic issue in Ninjask/Yanmega". There were far more than three pokemon that were broken with Baton Pass at the time. In the sleep discussion, it really is just three anyone is talking about. You might not want to waste more time finding out if new ones crop up, but there is no one even close to the horizon of popping up. And who would it be? Unova Lilligant? Vivillon? Are we still debating Amoonguss? I really don't feel the list of broken pokemon is that high, and the ones that do exist don't seem to add as much to the metagame as every possible Baton Pass user did (like 20% of the meta at the time, including necessary walls, so it really made no sense to ban pokemon specifically and not baton pass.)

I actually like debating why this doesn't work much more than the repetitive sleep conversations we've been having. Hopefully we can continue to have a productive conversation on this.
 
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I do want to look at the senorlopez method of adjusting the sleep clause, as I do think it's interesting.

Smogon enforces bans and rulesets in a manner that's similar to asking players to create a group of promises:

"I promise I won't bring this pokemon, or this move, or this item into the battle",
"I promise not to dynamax",
etc.

The senorlopez method sounds somewhat consistent to this idea of promises:

"I promise I won't use a sleep inducing status move against the opponent if at least one of their Pokemon is already asleep."

However... There's some problems with it: The former promise examples I showed are enforced even before the game was even started. But the sleep promise is not in that manner - it has to be enforced smack right in the middle of the battle.

That is to say, to completely mirror the cart rules, but add a ruleset on top, we could simply have one simple list of stuff we can't have, plug it in, a voila - Instant format with no tampering with the cart. The judge in the rules were there right from the beginning to filter everything out, and in full isolation of the game's codebase.

The suggested Sleep Promise, however, does require reprogramming of the game to be enforced that can't be isolated: You need to plug in code to find out when and when it isn't being enforced in the middle of the game. In pseudo-code, something like

Code:
if pokemon_asleep >= 1:
    sleep_move_allowed = false
Yes, it does emulate the promise well without tampering with mechanics too much. But sadly, we enter grim territory of having a true bot directly affecting the game code to enforce it.

One might say that banning Tera and Dynamax would be the same way, as it's like grey out the buttons letting you do those things. But the program for that anything but elaborate - no more so than disallowing items and such to begin with.

I suppose the proposed sleep clause idea is better than the one we already have now - Our current one definitely modifies the game out of tune with the cart. But not quite as sound as an actual banlist enforced from the get-go.
 
This scenario defeats the purpose of the 'gentleman's agreement'. "The optimal play is to keep Sporing" does not really matter in cases where you already agreed at the top of the battle to not sleep more than one pokemon. By the same logic, the 'optimal' play is to bring Flutter Mane and just click buttons. If youre saying the optimal play is to break the gentleman's agreement, youre not really talking about OU anymore.
There is no gentlemen's agreement. You can spam spore to your heart's content in simulator and if you already sleeped something, it "fails" via sleep mod. If there was a gentlemen's agreement, the whole box would be grayed out aside for some niche cases such as encore or being pp stalled. This is not similar to bringing an Ubers mon (there isn't even a similarity lol).
 

Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Thank you for the feedback on my memes. I've tried to improve, what do you think?

View attachment 594388
Change your avatar to Walking Wake because you clearly overcooked DaddyBuzzwole under Sun

"Grey out the moves" you can literally still have scenarios where you are forced into Sleep move again, and thus this is not a viable solution.
"Grey out the move unless there is literally no other option" still works. But by that point we should just drop the Clause anyway.

Anyone else here who doesn’t care about sleep clause at all? I just don’t wanna play vs hypno Val and rai and sleep powder venosaur and lilligant. Those guys alone are enough for sleep to be banned(and I wouldn’t miss amongus either)
Honestly, probably not. But Sleep Clause has been on the Councillors' minds for a good while now, so this is the perfect opportunity to make it consistent with tiering policy.

Darkrai was unbanned as a false flag
Trust the process
Q(wilfish)
 
You guys are so boring you might as well have used hypnosis on me because my honest reaction when I look through the metagame discussion:
Live Reaction

Why don't we talk about something more interesting like how Bugceus should OBJECTIVELY be unbanned from Ubers. Why? I think UU deserves a chance to get their own Volcarona so let's let them have something that's kinda like it.

This mon really has x-scissor and judgement as viable bug type moves to use and that's it. What does he even do???

You call this God himself when it's just a dumbass llama stuck in a fencepost. How the hell does that make you scared? Weak to rocks that's all you need to know, thank me later.

This mon might actually be worse than Vivillon, and I say that respectfully. Vivillon can go larp as Venemoth and go "I will turn into a convertible" and then sleep powder all over the place. Bugceus? Who the fuck is bro lol.

Now, you might be wondering, what does Bugceus even do??? Ermm according to my research (recommended Bugceus set for Ubers) it doesn't even use bug STAB. Who is lil bro

If the mon scares you senseless I'll let it be known that top dawg Blissey walls the shit outta the CM shitmon sets and also 120 stats are ass compared to the other stats of high tier mons. 130+ at least ya cowards, who were you breaking Gamefreak!!!

Because this mon is walled by Blissey AKA the UU GOAT, I think it's safe to say that it'll drop to RU- oh, what's that? Chansey in RU? Fuck this his dumbass is NUBL at best. Swords dance sets aren't real (source: my ass).

I would like to end my incredibly intelligent post with a quote from the greatest player of all time and GOAT philosopher, vertical triple x: "everything should be freed, stop being pussy." It hits so deep especially when discussing an Ubers shitmon that deserves a chance to beat the PU allegation. Want living proof that vertical triple x is the greatest player of all time? Enter incredibly talented goodtake maker Umbre (luna107 ):
1705714682862.png


Ok byee guys and remember, everything should be freed, stop being pussy
 

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