Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

Personally I wouldn't have banned sleep, or at least not banned yawn, but also I will readily admit to being bad at this game so I don't have the qualifications to really back up why I wouldn't. Either way I hope this improves the tier. Roaring Moon not being gone sucks but I'll figure out how to deal
 

Finchinator

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I wrote a thread on Twitter (not calling it X ever) about the survey results here.

To sum it up:
The SV OU tiering survey has concluded and results are now up! Feel free to check out our post detailing what the playerbase thinks: https://smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-9947296… — I will use this as a thread on the topic, so read below if you’re interested

The biggest immediate takeaway from me is that the enjoyment and competitiveness of the metagame went down in direct correlation with sleep scoring quite high and drawing many complaints throughout PS and the forum. This backed with our multiple discussion threads helped us act!

Regarding Tera, it received a noticeably lower score than last time, especially among qualified voters. This means that a lot of people enjoy it or want it to remain within the metagame. The jury is still out as to what will happen and I imagine we will continue to discuss it

Kyurem received a lot of support, going even higher than it previously was. It is a strong candidate for a suspect test in the immediate future, so stay tuned for more on that.

Other Pokemon like Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire deserve our attention and continued watch as well. Archaludon scored low, but will be monitored as well with the recent surge in dramatic Rain playstyles.

Finally, old friends (or foes) Kingambit and Gholdengo are still in discussions as well. Their current scores are lower than before, but we aren’t going to ignore them anytime soon. Deoxys-Speed is likely not a big focus for the time being though as it continues to fall off.
 

ninth

I FEEL LIKE FLYGON
is a Community Contributor
Archaludon scored lower than anticipated even on the qualified score. I anticipate this will sound much different in a week or two - if you watched this first week of SPL, Archaludon rain was absolutely everywhere, and the only time I remember it losing was when freezai lost his Pelipper to Supercell Slam turn 1.

EDIT: The numbers don't look favorable for any Tera action, but I do still think we should hold one more Tera vote at some point, so that we can lock in the results for all eternity and no longer have to think about "oh what if there's Tera action down the line," because this is as close as we'll get to a final state of SV.
 
Kyurem is like Baxcalibur all over again, except it's more versatile because it can go mixed. It has everything Baxcalibur used
Not quite comparable. It doesn't have Burn immunity, Band viable moves like Glaive Rush, Earthquake, Swords Dance for SS, or quite as much immediate power.

Kyurem is Baxcalibur-lite on the Physical side and really wants Tera there, while the Special side is arguably closer to Bax's Choice sets. There's some notable differences to bring up given Bax was a quickban while Kyurem is only just pushing Suspect-worthy atm.
 

Anchor9

#ampharosforou
is a Pre-Contributor
On another note, :Archaludon: isn’t broken. Sure it absolutely demolishes if not prepared for, but nearly every team packs an Electric Immunity and a couple of Mons faster than Arch and hit like trucks. What you should be doing is baiting it out with :choice specs::Ampharos: by threatening Pelipper and then suprise Focus Blasting the Archaludon switch in for a OHKO
 
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Before I begin, how do you quote a post you can't reply to? Would really help here xD

A few things that were expected for me, and a few surprises to be honest.

The drops in enjoyment and competitiveness were pretty expected given the vibe about.

I'm honestly surprised that ANY action on tera was in the minority. I thought that there would have been disagreement on HOW to act on it, but I expected there to be a slight majority in favour of action. Maybe I've only noticed the ones who want action on it, and while I would have considered a ban on tera blast, it's not really something I have strong feelings about.

Sleep, well... we kind of knew the results from last night's announcement. I would love to see the distribution to see exactly how divisive it ended up being, but the action has been taken now. I am looking forward to seeing how the meta progresses without it, although I feel yawn could've been spared.

I am not surprised Kyurem has high ratings, almost that of sleep itself! It definitely can be a monster, and wouldn't be surprised to see it banned in a suspect.

Gouging Fire was like Tera, I expected higher ratings for it. I love the mon, I think its DDance sets are fun to play with and Bulwark makes it a really good defensive check to physical attackers that use a lot of contact moves.

I expected Roaring Moon to be around the same levels as Kyurem tbh, and if Kyurem goes then I expect RM will follow it. I was surprised it dropped to begin with, and while it's fun to use it can be too powerful and easy to set up at times.

I don't see why there are people that find archaludon to be so banworthy, and a lot of people in the survey seem to agree with me. I feel like you knock its AV and hit it with special attacks until it's dead. Maybe I'm not playing against competent users though, as I'm NOWHERE near high ladder (curently trying to creep to 1500).

Gholdengo is about where I expected it. There are a lot of new toys that threaten it, and I don't imagine ban support will pick up until its checks thin out.

People hate Nintendo Sucker Punch Simulator 2021. What a surprise. It might be a necessary evil, I don't really know. I just think its potential to completely reverse the outcome of an otherwise finished game is unbelievable. I'm surprised it has survived the tier so long, and would love to see a suspect on it.

Deo-S is balanced, glad to see that there's not too much drama about it. I think it's been a fine addition to the tier, despite my initial concerns about it.

"Few people cited Lugia as a retest candidate"

...are you kidding me? We do not need the thread to derail onto this again xD

The other miscellaneous concerns, nothing really surprising other than Drizzle itself. I never expected that to get cited.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Few people cited Lugia as a retest candidate

Kyurem is like Baxcalibur all over again, except it's more versatile because it can go mixed. It has everything Baxcalibur used
Baxcalibur has a lot that Kyurem doesn't have ngl (Two fairly strong abilities, more Attack, better coverage since for some reason Kyurem doesn't get Earthquake). Not saying Kyurem is balanced, but this comparison really isn't there.
 
Before I begin, how do you quote a post you can't reply to? Would really help here xD

A few things that were expected for me, and a few surprises to be honest.

The drops in enjoyment and competitiveness were pretty expected given the vibe about.

I'm honestly surprised that ANY action on tera was in the minority. I thought that there would have been disagreement on HOW to act on it, but I expected there to be a slight majority in favour of action. Maybe I've only noticed the ones who want action on it, and while I would have considered a ban on tera blast, it's not really something I have strong feelings about.

Sleep, well... we kind of knew the results from last night's announcement. I would love to see the distribution to see exactly how divisive it ended up being, but the action has been taken now. I am looking forward to seeing how the meta progresses without it, although I feel yawn could've been spared.

I am not surprised Kyurem has high ratings, almost that of sleep itself! It definitely can be a monster, and wouldn't be surprised to see it banned in a suspect.

Gouging Fire was like Tera, I expected higher ratings for it. I love the mon, I think its DDance sets are fun to play with and Bulwark makes it a really good defensive check to physical attackers that use a lot of contact moves.

I expected Roaring Moon to be around the same levels as Kyurem tbh, and if Kyurem goes then I expect RM will follow it. I was surprised it dropped to begin with, and while it's fun to use it can be too powerful and easy to set up at times.

I don't see why there are people that find archaludon to be so banworthy, and a lot of people in the survey seem to agree with me. I feel like you knock its AV and hit it with special attacks until it's dead. Maybe I'm not playing against competent users though, as I'm NOWHERE near high ladder (curently trying to creep to 1500).

Gholdengo is about where I expected it. There are a lot of new toys that threaten it, and I don't imagine ban support will pick up until its checks thin out.

People hate Nintendo Sucker Punch Simulator 2021. What a surprise. It might be a necessary evil, I don't really know. I just think its potential to completely reverse the outcome of an otherwise finished game is unbelievable. I'm surprised it has survived the tier so long, and would love to see a suspect on it.

Deo-S is balanced, glad to see that there's not too much drama about it. I think it's been a fine addition to the tier, despite my initial concerns about it.

"Few people cited Lugia as a retest candidate"

...are you kidding me? We do not need the thread to derail onto this again xD

The other miscellaneous concerns, nothing really surprising other than Drizzle itself. I never expected that to get cited.
The one that surprised me is the fact a Lugia drop has enough support to be mentioned. Honestly out of all the Ubers that could be tested that are left, Lugia feels like the most reasonable one to consider for a test even if it ends up being stupid and only stays for a week. So you know what, if we get through the Kyurem suspect and a Lugia test has support? I am all for it, it might even end up being good for the tier to keep offense in line. And even if it's op, we have nothing to lose.


Also a Kyurem suspect is probably happening unsurprisingly so there is that too, and right now Kyurem should be the focus before we even consider dropping it for a test.
 
And Recover, Calm Mind and Stored Power kek
It doesn't get stored power. Also it's forced into tera blast to break through gambit and ting lu

Plus if anything I expect Lugia to run pressure more down here, since multiscale with the amount of hazards probably doesn't do it favors.

Also Lugia is a little more flawed than you might think at first glance, the typing, reliance on boots, being screwed by status and trick users, being really annoyed by knock off and being a tera hog in general with its lackluster movepool are a good amount of flaws, as many as the Zamazentas do. Also Lugia has an obnoxious amount of 4mss, another problem that thwarts it even in ubers UU where it kinda sucks. (Gambit is also a highly used mon there)

Lugia may be hard to beat outright, but on the other hand it takes it a while to get going as well which could really hurt it against a lot of threats.

Like there are counters, and considering some of the demons we have down here it could end up being good for the tier at large since it can check some mons at least

Point being while it looks like it would be broken at first glance, you begin to notice that it's flawed as all hell.
 
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DontBannedSneasler (Lugia) @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aeroblast
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Tera Blast
Stronk mon, CM+Psyshock+Special Moves is great. I don't know where DaddyBuzzwole's Ubers Talk Translator is, but this being passive in Ubers is just relatively good (ish) in OU. You can even run specs, Heavy-Duty Boots Multiscale is fun to get off CMs but Leftovers can potentially get multiple Multiscale CMs off if hazards are removed well (will never happen). Nickname is homage to the best quote ever, don't unbanned lugia, guys.
 

Anchor9

#ampharosforou
is a Pre-Contributor
Lugia @ Choice Specs
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Aeroblast
- Calm Mind
- Trick

Tell me how this doesn’t deal with at least Ting-Lu. Trick baby will mess up its checks.
 

Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
In what will probably be my last comment on Sleep while hoping it will not derail the thread: I legitimately wanted Sleep to be tested not as a "possibly broken" feature (because let's be honest, it was), but rather so we could see whether we preferred a blanket Sleep ban, or just a ban on the worst abusers. Of course, that's because I don't think Sleep was "uncompetitive", just OP, but the Council thought otherwise and what's done is done, RIP in pieces.

Do you feel that any tiering action at all (ban or restriction) is needed on the topic of Terastallization?
  • Qualified: 72 said Yes, 82 said No -- 46.8% support for tiering action on Terastallization
  • General: 518 said Yes, 475 said No -- 52.2% support for tiering action on Terastallization
:gholdengo:
  • Qualified: 2.9 / 5
  • General: 3.1 / 5
This is a hard day for the haters (me).

:archaludon:
  • Qualified: 2.6 / 5
  • General: 2 / 5
Archaludon received limited support, but internal consensus is that Archaludon and Rain teams deserve greater discussion. The jury is still out as to what will happen and we are certainly not going to force or rush any action, but it is likely going to remain in talks despite lower scores, especially with recent trends on the ladder and in tournaments across this past weekend.
"Limited support" seems misleading. If the lowest score is 1, then the average is 3, not 2.5. Archaludon is literally below average (and getting failing grades in the general vote), unless there's an upwards trend in the latest surveys then it seems pretty ok for a top-tier mon. Unless you noticed a higher rate of 5s compared to the other mons?

Few people cited Lugia as a retest candidate
I wonder why. Is it because the defensive Zamazenta proved to be ok to the meta? Or because Sleepless Darkrai was even considered Mid in OU? Or is it just a couple sub1000 nerds trying to be funny?
 
DontBannedSneasler (Lugia) @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aeroblast
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Tera Blast
Stronk mon, CM+Psyshock+Special Moves is great. I don't know where DaddyBuzzwole's Ubers Talk Translator is, but this being passive in Ubers is just relatively good (ish) in OU. You can even run specs, Heavy-Duty Boots Multiscale is fun to get off CMs but Leftovers can potentially get multiple Multiscale CMs off if hazards are removed well (will never happen). Nickname is homage to the best quote ever, don't unbanned lugia, guys.
This mon is a huge tera sink, no question it would be good in OU though. If you get hit by knock off you get kinda screwed here. You get scarf tricked on you? Yeah good luck doing anything. Gets hit by a Gliscor toxic or a thunder wave or burn? Yeah you aren't keeping multiscale up in this meta with raging bolt and knock off spammers. Also you are bait for ting lu to whirlwind with this set, and ruination being common really gives lugia trouble. Like there are things that beat it down here somewhat consistently. So I feel like while you have a good reason to be afraid, when you think more about it there is a chance it could potentially be okay even if it's annoying as all hell
 
Lugia @ Choice Specs
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Aeroblast
- Calm Mind
- Trick

Tell me how this doesn’t deal with at least Ting-Lu. Trick baby will mess up its checks.
Then you don't get roost for recovery, or tera blast to break gambit at all. 4MSS is very apparent on this set since you either have to give up calm mind, a stab, or tera blast

See you could run tera blast on specs, but then you lose the ability to spam roost and outlast stuff or phase
 

veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Contributor to Smogon
Also Lugia is a little more flawed than you might think at first glance, the typing, reliance on boots, being screwed by status and trick users, being really annoyed by knock off and being a tera hog in general with its lackluster movepool are a good amount of flaws, as many as the Zamazentas do
Typing? Psychic/Flying is not ideal but it's pretty decent and it can terastalize, typing is not at all a factor.

Reliance on boots? The mon with 106/130/154 bulk with 110 base speed to recover on anything slower does not mind taking 25% rocks chip when it's immune to all other hazards, and boots are the best item in the game anyways so???

Status and trick? Nearly every single pokemon is annoyed by status and trick, including nearly every boxart, trick is very telegraphed and can be absorbed while status is entirely blocked by terastalization (mainly Steel or Poison for Toxic).

Once again, shit does not need boots and everything is very annoyed by knock off unless it's sticky hold, gliscor or one of the few pokemon with signature items (Ogerpon, Zacian).

Lackluster movepool is possibly the worst argument by far, Lugia boasts an excellent movepool with great options. For attacks Aeroblast, Earth Power, and Psyshock look like the best options to me but it has tons of random coverage, for status moves it has Calm Mind and Recover which are very self explanatory. Add in Tera Blast for random coverage options and it doesn't really need anything else.
 
very grateful for survey transparency and noting on all options and responses, even the minority ones, but we should probably not give all our attention to the fringe/niche picks mentioned by a few people cough you know what i mean cough, and instead focus on the things that will actually affect the meta. if kyurem goes--which seem
 
Typing? Psychic/Flying is not ideal but it's pretty decent and it can terastalize, typing is not at all a factor.

Reliance on boots? The mon with 106/130/154 bulk with 110 base speed to recover on anything slower does not mind taking 25% rocks chip when it's immune to all other hazards, and boots are the best item in the game anyways so???

Status and trick? Nearly every single pokemon is annoyed by status and trick, including nearly every boxart, trick is very telegraphed and can be absorbed while status is entirely blocked by terastalization (mainly Steel or Poison for Toxic).

Once again, shit does not need boots and everything is very annoyed by knock off unless it's sticky hold, gliscor or one of the few pokemon with signature items (Ogerpon, Zacian).

Lackluster movepool is possibly the worst argument by far, Lugia boasts an excellent movepool with great options. For attacks Aeroblast, Earth Power, and Psyshock look like the best options to me but it has tons of random coverage, for status moves it has Calm Mind and Recover which are very self explanatory. Add in Tera Blast for random coverage options and it doesn't really need anything else.
Yeah it's movepool is decent, but compared to some other movepools even held by mons like the Zamazentas it's kind of unimpressive.
 

j0nathan

formerly trainer_j0nathan
I'm really happy about this survey. Banning sleep was the right thing to do, it's just way too uncompetetive.
Kyurem probably getting suspected is also great.
And no please don't test Lugia.
 
Also you are bait for ting lu to whirlwind with this set, and ruination being common really gives lugia trouble. Like there are things that beat it down here somewhat consistently. So I feel like while you have a good reason to be afraid, when you think more about it there is a chance it could potentially be okay even if it's annoying as all hell
Let's calc some sets which are solely made to kill Ting-Lu.
+1 252+ SpA Tera Ice Lugia Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 236-278 (45.9 - 54%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
+1 252+ SpA Tera Water Lugia Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 236-278 (45.9 - 54%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Boom. It switches in, it tanks one, it whirlwinds Lugia, it is low. Very.
Or...
+1 252+ SpA Tera Water Lugia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 288-338 (56 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
 

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