Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

Thoughts on haze, unaware clod? It could beat arch 1v1, while not caring about the attack boosts and allow something to come back in. Maybe you could even switch out unaware for water absorb.
 
Boulders usage had an extreme decline already (over 18% to 8%) and while it's the fastest paradox, pokemon like Kingambit, Rillaboom, Dragonite and Raging Bolt can all outspeed it with priority while also being stronger, bulkier and providing extra utility. Boulder is only good against HO without priority moves, which is just a bad HO.
So does vast majority of Pokemon after new toy syndrome wears off. Did Samurott-H drop to UU because it’s not used as much any more? Or even Deoxys-S? Both of which have less usage than Iron Boulder?
It’s a massive leap to say something like Iron Boulder will be UU soon because it went from top 10 to still well above cut off range.
 
So does vast majority of Pokemon after new toy syndrome wears off. Did Samurott-H drop to UU because it’s not used as much any more? Or even Deoxys-S? Both of which have less usage than Iron Boulder?
It’s a massive leap to say something like Iron Boulder will be UU soon because it went from top 10 to still well above cut off range.
The thing that differentiates these mons is that Boulder is largely outclassed by valiant as a booster late game sweeper. The only thing it has over it is speed, which is not much of an issue seeing that valiant is already insanely fast. Part of the reason why valiant is still top tier is due to its set versatily, which boulder can't do as the only thing it can change in its set is swapping out cc or e-quake for zen headbutt. Hamurott is a mon that can set up spikes while attacking, meanning hatterene can't block them. Meanwhile, Deo-S has incredible speed and can guarentee one layer of hazards/screens.
 
The thing that differentiates these mons is that Boulder is largely outclassed by valiant as a booster late game sweeper. The only thing it has over it is speed, which is not much of an issue seeing that valiant is already insanely fast. Part of the reason why valiant is still top tier is due to its set versatily, which boulder can't do as the only thing it can change in its set is swapping out cc or e-quake for zen headbutt. Hamurott is a mon that can set up spikes while attacking, meanning hatterene can't block them. Meanwhile, Deo-S has incredible speed and can guarentee one layer of hazards/screens.
I definitely wouldn’t say Iron Boulder is at all outclassed by Iron Valiant. Only Iron Valiant set that’s comparible to Iron Boulder is Sword Dance set, and there they play differently. Also I think you greatly underestimate other positives Iron Boulder has as a Sword Dancer. Like Mighty Cleave, which can stop things like Gliscor and Alomomola from protect healing. Or how Iron Boulder is noticably bulkier against neutral attacks when it can Tera and nullify those weaknesses it has. Or how it’s extremely hard to actually revenge kill, with likes of Iron Valiant not being able to outspeed it. Yeah it’s slightly weaker than Iron Valiant, but it’s going to cleave through teams after a Sword Dance and the enemy team being soften up.
And you, I still really doubt Iron Boulder will drop to UU even if its considered outclassed, especially if Archaludon gets banned.
 
I definitely wouldn’t say Iron Boulder is at all outclassed by Iron Valiant. Only Iron Valiant set that’s comparible to Iron Boulder is Sword Dance set, and there they play differently. Also I think you greatly underestimate other positives Iron Boulder has as a Sword Dancer. Like Mighty Cleave, which can stop things like Gliscor and Alomomola from protect healing. Or how Iron Boulder is noticably bulkier against neutral attacks when it can Tera and nullify those weaknesses it has. Or how it’s extremely hard to actually revenge kill, with likes of Iron Valiant not being able to outspeed it. Yeah it’s slightly weaker than Iron Valiant, but it’s going to cleave through teams after a Sword Dance and the enemy team being soften up.
And you, I still really doubt Iron Boulder will drop to UU even if its considered outclassed, especially if Archaludon gets banned.
Iron Boulder will not likely fall down to UU, that I can agree with, however, another part of valiant's attributes is it's quad-resistance to one of the scariest late game moves this gen, gambit's sucker punch. Unlike boulder, valiant is better against priority as even band rillaboom grassy glide only does 84% max, which is used a lot as a team's form of priority. It doesn't matter if you can tera if you are forcing yourself to keep it so a mon can be at its best, a mon should not have to take into account tera to perform its job well. If it is a tera hog, then that means the rest of your team will not be able use it either, severly restricting your variabilty.
As a late game cleaner, you have to have some way to get around priority, another example is dragonite which has multiscale to get off a dd to start a sweep. Boulder does not have a way to get around common priority, while valiant does.
 
so, genuinely, what is the argument for keeping tera? i know, i know, its a generational mechanic and its fun to play with, so it makes sense the majority is not in favour of outright banning it, but that doesnt mean they think its healthy. i have seen many arguments on why tera is unhealthy and uncompetitive, and they all make sense to me, but the single argument ive seen for tera being healthy is "it helps deal with the broken threats of the current tier", which is a non-reason (broken checks broken, all that). i know most people are supportive of tera, and the council (probably) isnt gonna act on it without community support, but id like to at least know a valid, competitive-minded reason on how tera is healthy for the game.
I vehemently hate tera but it's clear to me that banning it now would be a mistake. We've tiered around tera for so long that banning it would throw everything into imbalance, probably breaking a fair few pokemon now that emergency tera no longer exists, and at the very least we'd have reason to test a fair few ubers (annihilape and urshitfu maybe, regieleki and Galapagos definitely). You'd face a lot of backlash: there are a fair few players that do not support any restriction on tera, and whether or not I agree with them we should always respect both sides of the argument unlike the sleep ban. Plus, I don't think banning tera would really solve all the problems caused by the massive powercreep this gen, and with the high unlikelihood of actually achieving a tera ban regardless of what's healthy and not, I'm personally fine just accepting that this gen just won't be the most extremely balanced thing ever and just enjoying the shenanigans I can pull until gen 10 comes out
 
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If we're talking Iron Boulder, I think it should be noted that Boulder's Speed tier remains a very real strength. Especially considering that unlike Iron Valiant, Boulder outspeeds even +1 Roaring Moon and can KO it with Mighty Cleave or Close Combat, which would otherwise tear Valiant asunder with Acrobatics. Getting the jump on Scarf Meowscarada ain't too shabby either.

Special shoutouts to Scarf Krai for then getting the jump on Booster Boulder and learning Ice Beam and Psychic
 
If we're talking Iron Boulder, I think it should be noted that Boulder's Speed tier remains a very real strength. Especially considering that unlike Iron Valiant, Boulder outspeeds even +1 Roaring Moon and can KO it with Mighty Cleave or Close Combat, which would otherwise tear Valiant asunder with Acrobatics. Getting the jump on Scarf Meowscarada ain't too shabby either.

Special shoutouts to Scarf Krai for then getting the jump on Booster Boulder and learning Ice Beam and Psychic
Fun fact, booster speed roaring moon at +1 can outspeed adamant swift swim barra in rain. I know because I have used a team with it and the switch in their barra, thinking it can outspeed, to only then be destroyed by moon.
 
Fun fact, booster speed roaring moon at +1 can outspeed adamant swift swim barra in rain. I know because I have used a team with it and the switch in their barra, thinking it can outspeed, to only then be destroyed by moon.
On one hand, outspeeding essentially the entire meta after a single Dragon Dance is really cool. On the other, failing to OHKO a healthy Kyurem without Rocks is kind of terrifying and the 3HKO against Dondozo turning into a 2HKO isn't so cool.
 
I'd like to invite discussion a possible further development in the metagame I've surmised (mid ladder player take with massive grain of salt) with the introduction of the one and only Great Neck. Countless arguments have taken place on this forum and in other places about the power level of a certain regal and tactical game piece. A lot of players, including myself, see the idea having to constantly live in fear of Kingambit as rather unfun. Many if not most high level players have come to agree that Kingambit is not broken and in fact a healthy defensive check to such OU staples like Dragapult and a Gholdengo that isn't preparing to nuke it with focus blast. And while I'd agree that Kingambit has seen its effectiveness wane as the tier is flooded with more and more unbelievably powerful pokemon competing for usage, I feel as though the King has regained his right hand in this DLC 2 meta. Raging Bolt in many ways serves as a special Kingambit. With the introduction of the new move Thunderclap, a special electric type sucker punch, Bolt can engage in extremely similar shenanigans as the formerly mentioned chess demon. Boasting nearly identical effective bulk and a very similar 137 special attack to Gambit's 135 (whoops) physical, as well as the always useful calm mind to boost it's main attacking stat and special bulk, Raging Bolt offers a team incredibly strong electric and dragon special attacks and the ability to clip common threats with priority. Enamorus, chipped Iron Valiants without encore, and the recent beneficiary of rain's rise, Barraskewda, all fall victim to thunderclap. Raging Bolt's moveset has some optionality but I wouldn't say that it suffers from 4MSS because standard movesets generally only comprise of dragon STAB (pulse or draco) electric STAB (thunderbolt or discharge) and calm mind or volt switch. Bolt can run items like leftovers for more staying power, specs, boots to ignore hazard spam and even assault vest for considerable immediate special bulk. But while Giant Trunk lacks the endgame zenkai boost his evil counterpart gets from Supreme Overlord, he can utilize Protosynthesis to supercharge his special attack on first switch for instant value as well as fit perfectly on many scary sun teams. It is important to note that weather teams allow Bolt access to the according weather ball for more useful coverage Additionally Raging Bolt functions well on rain, opting in this case to run Thunder and the afforementioned weather ball.

All of this is to say that while the general consensus amongst most skilled players is that Kingambit's presence, if still frustrating at times, is a welcome and healthy component in a quickly evolving metagame, I find it incredibly difficult to reliably check both Kingambit and Raging Bolt in the teambuilder. I'm not sure I've decided where I stand on the broken checks broken line of thinking, but is it possible that we might be seeing a case of broken amplifies broken here with these two. Ultimately I feel as though there may be enough bulky ground types in OU to come up with a decent solution, but Kyurem still allowed in OU I feel as though some version of a Gambit, Bolt, Kyurem core would rise to become one of OU's most formidable.

I must also add that this is not a pairing I'm seeing consistently on the ladder, but one that I predict will rise in popularity, especially if Archaludon, a pokemon that can reliably dumpster gambit, is banned. I would love to get everyone's thoughts here and maybe even some examples of teams people have tried that feature both Raging Bolt and Kingambit.
TY rant over
 
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and a very similar 137 special attack to Gambit's 130 physical
errrm actually Kingambit's Attack stat is 135 :psysly:

While I think Kingambit should have been booted from the tier a long time ago, I believe his weird cat (Raging Bolt) is a very good Pokemon, but is not obscenely overpowered. As you mentioned, Raging Bolt lacks the Supreme Overlord that turns matches against Kingambit from a normal Pokemon affair into 'keep your Pokemon as healthy as humanly possible' and even with Protosynthesis active, it lacks that special oomph that lets Kingambit's Sucker Punch cleave through resistances. Speaking of Protosynthesis, if it wants the boost on non Sun teams, it'll need to opt for the Booster Energy over the Leftovers. This means that unlike Kingambit, every failed Thunderclap doesn't result in it receiving healing. Thunderclap has a whole Type that's immune to it and we've seen Pokemon like Kyurem, Gouging Fire and Iron Boulder Terastalize into Ground Types to beef up the power of their own Earthquakes while also providing an immunity to Thunderclap not even mentioning the tier's seven fucking Ground Types, unlike Sucker Punch. Very much like Kingambit though (and I'd argue even moreso), Raging Bolt is a very Tera hungry Pokemon. Calm Mind is it's only boosting option, which is far slower than what Swords Dance would provide.
 
I find it incredibly difficult to reliably check both Kingambit and Raging Bolt in the teambuilder.
Pretty much every OU team runs a ground type as a matter of course. Furthermore, having an electric immunity of some sort has been like a general rule of teambuilding for generations. Adapting that to Bolt really isn't that much more difficult. Having an immunity and maybe 1 more electric resist or special wall can take care of most of these worries.

Another trick you can try is to put it on a timer with poison and/or T spikes. It could run boots, but a boots Raging Bolt is a bit less dangerous in the first place.

Team already adapt to the presence of Gambit or they aren't viable.

I feel as though some version of a Gambit, Bolt, Kyurem core would rise to become one of OU's most formidable.
Not a lot of speed in that core. Seems rather bulky offense. There is some good priority, but the kind that can be played around with status moves. There are some shared weaknesses there like fighting between Gambit and Kyurem, fairy between Bolt and Kyurem, and ground between Bolt and Gambit.
 
I agree with the first 6 but iron valiant isn't broken and tbh never was. gouging fire is also a reasonable ban/suspect target but everything after that (besides maybe gliscor) is lol
I put Iron Valiant on the list because I genuinely think it could become too much for the tier if gholdengo gholdenfucks off. Same with most of everything past the first 6. If Gholdengo never leaves the tier they're 100% fine but I do think that a lot of that stuff should be suspected if gholdengo leaves
>Skeledirge in OU
holy shit is UU a good tier now? Time to cook with hisuian zoroark and lose!
 
I definitely wouldn’t say Iron Boulder is at all outclassed by Iron Valiant. Only Iron Valiant set that’s comparible to Iron Boulder is Sword Dance set, and there they play differently. Also I think you greatly underestimate other positives Iron Boulder has as a Sword Dancer. Like Mighty Cleave, which can stop things like Gliscor and Alomomola from protect healing. Or how Iron Boulder is noticably bulkier against neutral attacks when it can Tera and nullify those weaknesses it has. Or how it’s extremely hard to actually revenge kill, with likes of Iron Valiant not being able to outspeed it. Yeah it’s slightly weaker than Iron Valiant, but it’s going to cleave through teams after a Sword Dance and the enemy team being soften up.
And you, I still really doubt Iron Boulder will drop to UU even if its considered outclassed, especially if Archaludon gets banned.
I feel like I’m personally more scared of Val than boulder most of the time because one, no one runs scarf valiant and booster energy valiant is relegated to HO so the speed difference really doesn’t matter, valiant gets knock off which can provide better utility to a team, and valiant is quad resistant to sucker punch, which is huge. Another benefit Val has over Boulder is that Boulder is basically always going to be an SD set, but Val could be a mixed breaker with like moonblast and knock off which makes it a lot scarier to switch into imo since if you go to like an Alomomola and they moonblast you’re screwed, and added with the fact that it could even be a calm mind set means it is just a bigger threat to your team.
 
I'd like to invite discussion a possible further development in the metagame I've surmised (mid ladder player take with massive grain of salt) with the introduction of the one and only Great Neck. Countless arguments have taken place on this forum and in other places about the power level of a certain regal and tactical game piece. A lot of players, including myself, see the idea having to constantly live in fear of Kingambit as rather unfun. Many if not most high level players have come to agree that Kingambit is not broken and in fact a healthy defensive check to such OU staples like Dragapult and a Gholdengo that isn't preparing to nuke it with focus blast. And while I'd agree that Kingambit has seen its effectiveness wane as the tier is flooded with more and more unbelievably powerful pokemon competing for usage, I feel as though the King has regained his right hand in this DLC 2 meta. Raging Bolt in many ways serves as a special Kingambit. With the introduction of the new move Thunderclap, a special electric type sucker punch, Bolt can engage in extremely similar shenanigans as the formerly mentioned chess demon. Boasting nearly identical effective bulk and a very similar 137 special attack to Gambit's 135 (whoops) physical, as well as the always useful calm mind to boost it's main attacking stat and special bulk, Raging Bolt offers a team incredibly strong electric and dragon special attacks and the ability to clip common threats with priority. Enamorus, chipped Iron Valiants without encore, and the recent beneficiary of rain's rise, Barraskewda, all fall victim to thunderclap. Raging Bolt's moveset has some optionality but I wouldn't say that it suffers from 4MSS because standard movesets generally only comprise of dragon STAB (pulse or draco) electric STAB (thunderbolt or discharge) and calm mind or volt switch. Bolt can run items like leftovers for more staying power, specs, boots to ignore hazard spam and even assault vest for considerable immediate special bulk. But while Giant Trunk lacks the endgame zenkai boost his evil counterpart gets from Supreme Overlord, he can utilize Protosynthesis to supercharge his special attack on first switch for instant value as well as fit perfectly on many scary sun teams. It is important to note that weather teams allow Bolt access to the according weather ball for more useful coverage Additionally Raging Bolt functions well on rain, opting in this case to run Thunder and the afforementioned weather ball.

All of this is to say that while the general consensus amongst most skilled players is that Kingambit's presence, if still frustrating at times, is a welcome and healthy component in a quickly evolving metagame, I find it incredibly difficult to reliably check both Kingambit and Raging Bolt in the teambuilder. I'm not sure I've decided where I stand on the broken checks broken line of thinking, but is it possible that we might be seeing a case of broken amplifies broken here with these two. Ultimately I feel as though there may be enough bulky ground types in OU to come up with a decent solution, but Kyurem still allowed in OU I feel as though some version of a Gambit, Bolt, Kyurem core would rise to become one of OU's most formidable.

I must also add that this is not a pairing I'm seeing consistently on the ladder, but one that I predict will rise in popularity, especially if Archaludon, a pokemon that can reliably dumpster gambit, is banned. I would love to get everyone's thoughts here and maybe even some examples of teams people have tried that feature both Raging Bolt and Kingambit.
TY rant over
On balance a defensive backbone consisting of sp def pivot Gking and phys def eq tusk is very good at dealing with these threats as well as being one of the best cores in the game right now since it can abuse some of the most formidable wallbreakers in the tier, specs kyurem being an amazing example. I also think that the core with bolt gambit and kyurem would be hard to make work because imagine all you would have to fit on that team. A rocks setter, a sturdy fairy resist, a spinner, speed control AND possibly another strong wallbreaker along with some pivots to get your breakers in. That team would also be really slow as well.
 
What are some of the most reliable counters to rain?
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Sunny Day
- Bug Buzz
- Morning Sun


Apparently this. Sunny day on pelipper then QD up, it won't 6-0 every rain team but it should have good MU.
 
Pretty much every OU team runs a ground type as a matter of course. Furthermore, having an electric immunity of some sort has been like a general rule of teambuilding for generations. Adapting that to Bolt really isn't that much more difficult. Having an immunity and maybe 1 more electric resist or special wall can take care of most of these worries.

Another trick you can try is to put it on a timer with poison and/or T spikes. It could run boots, but a boots Raging Bolt is a bit less dangerous in the first place.
Gambit + Bolt was the core that finally got me up to 1600s, it's definitely not as simple as just having a ground type. That's kinda the strength of the core actually, Raging bolt uses booster proto (imo its best set) to break as early in the game as possible. It utilizes dragon's resists to force a switch, boosts up as the ground switches, then lives a hit with its massive bulk and either kills or heavily damages the ground types with dragon stab. Then those ground types (ting-lu gliscor tusk lando) are weakened for Kingambit's endgame sweep. It's also customizable; in case you run into a clodsire or something that would stop Bolt's sweep cold, you're still able to somewhat effectively switch roles (especially with blackglasses as I like to run). It's not perfect, especially as both are pretty slow and still weak to encore (and ival in general), but that's what teammates are for.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
I wasn't expecting kyurem to avoid the banhammer like that.

I was expecting either a big portion of the community to have no problem with it or have a big problem with it.

It dodged the ban hammer for around one to five votes depending on how you count it.

I bet that archaludon's voting is going to end much faster and have a more one-sided result.
 
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SD Iron Valiant :)
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 258-304 (89.2 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 172-204 (59.5 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I don't think it works that way (Freeze Dry is Kyurem's most spammable move by far so it's the main one to assume if trying to switch-in for me). Specs just mercs and Boots only has to switch out the first time (which said Boots make less of a hinderance for it).
 
After seeing someone else use a mixed kyurem set on the ladder, i tried it out myself and found enjoyment in this set, which is mixed loaded dice kyurem.

Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 248 Atk / 228 SpA / 32 Spe
Rash Nature
- Scale Shot
- Icicle Spear
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power

This set trades speed for being able to get past usual kyurem checks like volcarona and glowking with icicle spear and scale shot - and if your opponent switches in dozo, skeledirge or corviknigth after seeing scale shot or icicle spear you can attack those with earth power/freeze-dry. this set doesnt have any non tera answers. Some mons with good mixed bulk can take it on after they terad, but you may be still able to get past them if you tera iced yourself, which benefits both your spa and atk, since it boosts both freeze dry and icicle spear
I used this set in ost on a german 6 structure instead of bax so it has hazard and pivot support. It didnt do much there since i played dumb and let it get parad t1, but i also laddered with it successfully in 1700-1800 area
 
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