Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

so what you're saying is that a teraless ladder wouldn't split the playerbase in a significantly harmful way? if it's not that popular, there's no risk of that, right?

i mean, oms are never guaranteed to exist for more than a single gen and we get plenty of new ones approved. hell, some even use or alter a generational mechanic. remember ultimate z? yeah, neither does anyone else, but it got a ladder. and it's not like tera donation is gonna be a thing in 2026. sure, oms are a different thing, but a no-tera ladder is basically an om in fancy clothes (but the om people would probably never approve it because "it's too close to ou" or something). i don't even want a tera ban, i just support the idea of making a no-tera ladder just to see what it'd be like and then to gloat when i'm right and it turns out to be a hyper-offense matchup-fish hellhole
Okay, I actually looked at ultimate z, and it was kinda fire. For those who don't know, you could put a z-crystal on a mon and spam said z-move as many times as you want. For example, Excadrill can have firium-z to spam inferno overdrives (fire type z-move) even though it doesn't learn any fire type moves.
I am still interested in it, but as you said its an om in fancy clothes, so maybe people wouldn't be interested in it as much, despite those clothes looking nice.
Even if we say only 10% migrates over, that still is pretty harmful to the playerbase. The standards for "popular" and "percentage of players that if leaving would harm a tier" are two very different ones. If 30% of a tier leaves said tier because they did not like a change, their opinion is not popular, but it would sure hurt the playerbase.
I mean, I don't think they will fully migrate over. Sure, some will play it exclusively, but that's for every tier, including OMs. We release it, and then people realise that tera wasn't the thing that is ruining the metagame, and they come back only to continue complaining about how tera should be banned just like they did when uubers was created and people still asked for uber drops
 
i think itd help some people to adopt the fighting game mindset: sometimes the new game of the franchise isnt that good, or at least you think that it isnt. What do you do? Play the old ones.

Obviously we are much more proactive here since we do bans and if you think a meta is bad but still want to stick around to improve it or see if it gets better, thats completely fair. I dont think imediate "play something else" is helpful. However, I do think there comes a point where it might just be easier to do that, really. fundamentally different mechanics, characters etc all can mean youll never be satisfied with CG OU, and theres no shame in skipping a generation imo. Plenty of folks still play older guilty gears and theres a bunch of melee people around.

and its not like youll miss out anything, you can just pick up cgou when you see a ban that you like or the meta is better for you, just like patch notes and new dlc bring people back to fighting games.

i thibk that the playerbase being involved in bans makes people feel like they need to stick around with cgou, waiting for it to finally get good. i recommend thinking on how many bans and changes (or lack of!) there would need for you to actually enjoy the meta, and how much you enjoy it now, and weight it to see if its worth it to stay in svou or to play an older gen.

anyway uuuuuuuuh dont ban gouging fire thats my free elo :(
 
Meanwhile, a Teraless ladder would remove a defining generational and split the playerbase, for what? A meta that's still dominated by mostly the same mons?
For what you say? To see what it actually looks like without Tera. It's kind of important. Sure, even I believe that splitting up the player base earlier wouldn't have been the right move. But now we have a not largely liked meta years later and this is in a context of an OM. It's not even the same as having an official ladder.

And even if you don't believe Tera is an issue or ever will be, it still isn't a waste of time. You get to see controversial mons like Kingambit in an environment where they cannot just Tera out of their weaknesses. The amount of bans in a Tera meta game will also likely be more. And before somebody tries to say only 2-3 bans were because of Tera, which is honestly underselling it a bit, this includes current bans and some that we may have to make in the future. There is also the potential to have some current banned mons such as Regieleki to see what it looks like. These are experiments we might be hesitant to try in OU, but would have little negative consequences to try it out in an OM.
 
i think itd help some people to adopt the fighting game mindset: sometimes the new game of the franchise isnt that good, or at least you think that it isnt. What do you do? Play the old ones.
Old Gen games are great they just don’t have enough of the player base. Thus, are less competitive overall.

As a result, the landscape of Natdex is drastically different from regular OU, with mons barely viable/non-existent in regular OU sitting at the top in Natdex, like Tapu Lele, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Tornadus Therian, and more.
This Gen definitely needs Ferrothorn! Come to think of it… Ferrothorn might have been holding the entire game together since Gen 5. It offers so much support, utility, and blanket checks damn near everything (think - Ogerpon, Long Neck, Serperior, even Walking Wake into bad predicts, etc) Ferro is so easy on the builder.

Meanwhile, a Teraless ladder would remove a defining generational and split the playerbase, for what? A meta that's still dominated by mostly the same mons? Great Tusk is still going to be an incredibly splashable mon whether or not it can turn Water type. Iron Valiant is still going to outspeed 98% of the metagame whether or not it is secretly a Steel type. The only mons that would really take a hit are Kingambit, Garganacl, Serperior, and debatably Volcarona, but they would all still be semi-viable to good.
The more we talk it out, the more enticing it sounds. Nerfs to Kingambit, Garganacl, Serperior, and Volcarona? What’s not to like?!
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Another thing I want to discuss: community surveys.

They’re a good concept that has allowed for more people to be heard in a more organized and regular fashion than ever before. It has been great to see Smogon adopt this model across tiers.

I do think a lot of trial-and-error has been applied here. Sometimes they’re done too frequently. Sometimes they’re done on too many or too few topics. And then there’s also the awkward way they interact with releases when it comes to forming banlists and initial responses.

My expectation is for them to be a bit less frequent as we get further from any given release, which will be the case the rest of the generation. We had been doing more than one per month for the first year of SV, which is a lot and mainly a testament to HOME, DLC1, and DLC2 all coming out in relatively quick succession. I expect them to be a bit more spread out and there could be some suspects (like Archaludon) that the council decides on. That doesn’t mean we are abandoning anything, but rather we are finding the best balance.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Roaring Moon is one of the best setup sweepers in the tier. Since it returned from DLC2 after a ban, it has put the tier in a ringer. Roaring Moon has even been under discussion for a ban. I wanted this thing gone so bad, but the more time has gone on, the better my teambuilding and my plays vs Moon have gotten. For those wondering how to deal with this absurd beast, this guide will give you a general idea on how to combat Roaring Moon.

IMG_3397.png
How To Fight The Moon
IMG_3397.png


Section I: Sets
IMG_3434.jpeg


DD Three Attacks
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake

DD Taunt
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Taunt

Choice Band
Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark/Dragon/Ground
EVs: 32 HP / 220 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Outrage
- Iron Head/Earthquake
- U-turn

As you can see, Moon only runs three sets. DD Three Attacks, Taunt DD, and CB. We could eliminate CB because you’ll only find it on Sun and CB brought up when discussing a RM suspect. What you might notice about the DD sets is that it almost always runs Tera Flying. There are very rare instances of it running Tera Steel or Fairy, but Moon often wants Tera Flying Acro to guarantee an OHKO on Physically Defensive Tusk without Spikes. You just wanna focus on Tera Flying. This is considerably simpler to do than checking Kingambit who could run different items, spreads, and Teras while OHKOing frail resists with +2 Sucker.

Section II: Checks
IMG_3389.png

“I check everything, tee hee.” - Dragonite

The reason it is important to talk about the two sets is that the counterplay may vary between them. The ones in bold check Moon regardless of the set or if it Teras, and do so consistently.

DD Three Attacks

-Toxic Gliscor
-Ting-Lu (Short-Term. Can Ruination and Whirlwind out)
-Dondozo
-Weavile (Can Switch Into an Unboosted Hit once. Rkills with Shard)
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz (Post-Tera)
-Balloon Gambit (Short-Term)
-Skarm (Don’t run Speed evs for Gambit. They sometimes run Jolly to outspeed anyways. Your Gambit checking resources are better spent elsewhere)
-Boots Kyurem (64 Def EVs lets you survive a +1 Knock from Moon. Checks Pre-Tera)
-Barb Clef (Forces Tera and threatens with T-Wave. Can win by spamming Moonlight if Moon gets the Barb)
-Balloon Tran (Can eat a Knock with investment and Wisps it)
-Physically Defensive Tusk (Pre-Tera)

DD Taunt

-Dondozo
-Kingambit
-Weavile
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz (Post-Tera)
-Physically Bulky Garganacl
-Tyranitar
-Raging Bolt
-Tinkaton
-Barb Clef
-Boots Kyu (Pre-Tera)
-Physically Defensive Tusk (Pre-Tera)

Section III: Team Composition
IMG_3404.jpeg


There are certain team compositions that help deal with Moon. Checks are not just in a vacuum, checks in practice are paired with other mons. They can aid in dealing with a certain threat. This is important for dealing with both sets. For example, Gliscor + Gambit is a great way to deal with Roaring Moon. If you see Moon coming in, go Gliscor, and click Toxic or U-Turn. If Moon clicks Taunt, you will know right away that it is safe for Gambit to come in. Even if Moon somehow beats the Gliscor 1v1, it is Toxic’d and that makes the mindgames with Sucker Punch for Gambit easier.

RH Lando has been one of my favorite ways of handling Moon and most other shit as of late. Chipping down Moon with Helmet, Status, etc is a great way to deal with it, because Roost is almost never used. Lando can weaken it, and then U-Turn out into a check. RM without that +1 boost is much easier to deal with.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 268-316 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 312-368 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 104 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 236-278 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Moon will either click Knock or it will try to DD again. If it DD’s again, you go back into Lando to click U-Turn again. If they click DD again, they’re already taking chip twice, putting it in range of a possible kill.

This means you could pair Lando with any one of the aforementioned checks to cover the Moon MU. My favorite pairing is Lando + Dnite. After rocks and U-Turn, Moon is in range of Ice Spinner or 2 E-Speeds. Yes Weavile Ice Shard deals around 46-55%, but you can put it in that range with certain teammates like Barb Clef, Gliscor, Skarm, etc.

Another thing to consider is a core that can force Moon to Tera and exploit that. To use another Lando example, Lando can force Moon to Tera Flying which Raging Bolt can come in to rkill. On the more defensive side, Clef + Mandi can let Mandi rkill Moon after it clicks Tera Flying since Clef will nuke it otherwise.

One concern that might be brought up is that its bad to have to use 2 mons to check one. However stuff like Lando + Dnite or Gliscor + Weavile already synergizes well with each other regardless of Moon’s presence.

Section IV: Reducing Setup Opportunities
IMG_3437.jpeg


So, what can Moon safely setup on? Surprisingly little actually. You might think Samurott since it duals resists its STABs, but even resisted, Razor Shell and Ceaseless do a good chunk to its HP 30% with Jolly Razor. 33% with Adamant. There is also the chance Hamurott is carrying Sacred Sword. It could play Tera mindgames with it, but that is risky since it deals 50% to Tera Flying. Ogerpon, Gholdengo, and Glowking are also possible candidates. They’re all important Pokemon that Moon can scare off. Gking and Ghold can cripple it with status, but losing them can hurt if you need them to check important threats. Losing Ogerpon though isn’t the end of the world. Ogerpon is mainly a wallbreaker and Moon is a setup sweeper exclusive to HO. Assuming the team doesn’t have a Primarina or other mon that Oger needs to check, you could sack it to deal chip or force a Tera with Play Rough. When building your team, consider if the team has free entry for Moon. If it does, consider how you’ll deal with it if it sets up.

So…Do I think Moon is broken?

No Not anymore.

Moon’s weaknesses like its fragility, and its linear gameplan have been shining more in this metagame. Checks like Dtail Dnite, Lando, etc have been seeing higher usage. Lately players have gotten better at chipping Moon down, because the direction teams has been headed towards has been gearing towards using blanket checks like Dnitre with an emphasis on offense to limit the chances of these offensive threats reeking havoc on the team. It isn’t just full HO, BO builds have been seeing a resurgence which also matches up solidly with the rest of the meta. My stance on the SV OU meta has changed from “This tier has some serious issues to be addressed.” to “The tier is surprisingly balanced” which was a mentality I had early in the DLC2 meta.

This may not have been my most polished write-up, but I’ve taken interest in making guides on dealing with certain strategies and mons ever since the Spikes guide. Is there any Pokemon or Strategy you want me to cover how to beat next? I’ll gladly take DMs or Replies.

I don’t know how to end this off,
so here is Roaring Muppet.
IMG_1225.jpeg
 
DD Taunt

-Dondozo
-Kingambit
-Weavile
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz (Post-Tera)
-Physically Bulky Garganacl
-Tyranitar
-Raging Bolt
-Tinkaton
-Barb Clef
-Boots Kyu (Pre-Tera)
-Physically Defensive Tusk (Pre-Tera)
If your Dondozo is not Avalanche then I would call it a pretty shaky check to Taunt Roaring Moon. If Dozo's only attack is Waterfall or Body Press then it just bounces right off Moon as they easily taunt and chip you down. Even if Dozo has both, Acrobatics might just blow you up anyways.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 160-190 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 3HKO

This isn't even mentioning how they're probably gonna knock off your boots and now you're taking a crapton of hazards damage.

Dondozo also loses to Jaw Lock + Breaking Swipe, ask me how I know.
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
Roaring Moon is one of the best setup sweepers in the tier. Since it returned from DLC2 after a ban, it has put the tier in a ringer. Roaring Moon has even been under discussion for a ban. I wanted this thing gone so bad, but the more time has gone on, the better my teambuilding and my plays vs Moon have gotten. For those wondering how to deal with this absurd beast, this guide will give you a general idea on how to combat Roaring Moon.

View attachment 612854How To Fight The MoonView attachment 612855

Section I: Sets
View attachment 612857

DD Three Attacks
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake

DD Taunt
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Taunt

Choice Band
Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark/Dragon/Ground
EVs: 32 HP / 220 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Outrage
- Iron Head/Earthquake
- U-turn

As you can see, Moon only runs three sets. DD Three Attacks, Taunt DD, and CB. We could eliminate CB because you’ll only find it on Sun and CB brought up when discussing a RM suspect. What you might notice about the DD sets is that it almost always runs Tera Flying. There are very rare instances of it running Tera Steel or Fairy, but Moon often wants Tera Flying Acro to guarantee an OHKO on Physically Defensive Tusk without Spikes. You just wanna focus on Tera Flying. This is considerably simpler to do than checking Kingambit who could run different items, spreads, and Teras while OHKOing frail resists with +2 Sucker.

Section II: Checks
View attachment 612858
“I check everything, tee hee.” - Dragonite

The reason it is important to talk about the two sets is that the counterplay may vary between them. The ones in bold check Moon regardless of the set or if it Teras, and do so consistently.

DD Three Attacks

-Toxic Gliscor
-Ting-Lu (Short-Term. Can Ruination and Whirlwind out)
-Dondozo
-Weavile (Can Switch Into an Unboosted Hit once. Rkills with Shard)
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz (Post-Tera)
-Balloon Gambit (Short-Term)
-Skarm (Don’t run Speed evs for Gambit. They sometimes run Jolly to outspeed anyways. Your Gambit checking resources are better spent elsewhere)
-Boots Kyurem (64 Def EVs lets you survive a +1 Knock from Moon. Checks Pre-Tera)
-Barb Clef (Forces Tera and threatens with T-Wave. Can win by spamming Moonlight if Moon gets the Barb)
-Balloon Tran (Can eat a Knock with investment and Wisps it)
-Physically Defensive Tusk (Pre-Tera)

DD Taunt

-Dondozo
-Kingambit
-Weavile
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz (Post-Tera)
-Physically Bulky Garganacl
-Tyranitar
-Raging Bolt
-Tinkaton
-Barb Clef
-Boots Kyu (Pre-Tera)
-Physically Defensive Tusk (Pre-Tera)

Section III: Team Composition
View attachment 612867

There are certain team compositions that help deal with Moon. Checks are not just in a vacuum, checks in practice are paired with other mons. They can aid in dealing with a certain threat. This is important for dealing with both sets. For example, Gliscor + Gambit is a great way to deal with Roaring Moon. If you see Moon coming in, go Gliscor, and click Toxic or U-Turn. If Moon clicks Taunt, you will know right away that it is safe for Gambit to come in. Even if Moon somehow beats the Gliscor 1v1, it is Toxic’d and that makes the mindgames with Sucker Punch for Gambit easier.

RH Lando has been one of my favorite ways of handling Moon and most other shit as of late. Chipping down Moon with Helmet, Status, etc is a great way to deal with it, because Roost is almost never used. Lando can weaken it, and then U-Turn out into a check. RM without that +1 boost is much easier to deal with.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 268-316 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 312-368 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 104 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 236-278 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Moon will either click Knock or it will try to DD again. If it DD’s again, you go back into Lando to click U-Turn again. If they click DD again, they’re already taking chip twice, putting it in range of a possible kill.

This means you could pair Lando with any one of the aforementioned checks to cover the Moon MU. My favorite pairing is Lando + Dnite. After rocks and U-Turn, Moon is in range of Ice Spinner or 2 E-Speeds. Yes Weavile Ice Shard deals around 46-55%, but you can put it in that range with certain teammates like Barb Clef, Gliscor, Skarm, etc.

Another thing to consider is a core that can force Moon to Tera and exploit that. To use another Lando example, Lando can force Moon to Tera Flying which Raging Bolt can come in to rkill. On the more defensive side, Clef + Mandi can let Mandi rkill Moon after it clicks Tera Flying since Clef will nuke it otherwise.

One concern that might be brought up is that its bad to have to use 2 mons to check one. However stuff like Lando + Dnite or Gliscor + Weavile already synergizes well with each other regardless of Moon’s presence.

Section IV: Reducing Setup Opportunities
View attachment 612868

So, what can Moon safely setup on? Surprisingly little actually. You might think Samurott since it duals resists its STABs, but even resisted, Razor Shell and Ceaseless do a good chunk to its HP 30% with Jolly Razor. 33% with Adamant. There is also the chance Hamurott is carrying Sacred Sword. It could play Tera mindgames with it, but that is risky since it deals 50% to Tera Flying. Ogerpon, Gholdengo, and Glowking are also possible candidates. They’re all important Pokemon that Moon can scare off. Gking and Ghold can cripple it with status, but losing them can hurt if you need them to check important threats. Losing Ogerpon though isn’t the end of the world. Ogerpon is mainly a wallbreaker and Moon is a setup sweeper exclusive to HO. Assuming the team doesn’t have a Primarina or other mon that Oger needs to check, you could sack it to deal chip or force a Tera with Play Rough. When building your team, consider if the team has free entry for Moon. If it does, consider how you’ll deal with it if it sets up.

So…Do I think Moon is broken?

No Not anymore.

Moon’s weaknesses like its fragility, and its linear gameplan have been shining more in this metagame. Checks like Dtail Dnite, Lando, etc have been seeing higher usage. Lately players have gotten better at chipping Moon down, because the direction teams has been headed towards has been gearing towards using blanket checks like Dnitre with an emphasis on offense to limit the chances of these offensive threats reeking havoc on the team. It isn’t just full HO, BO builds have been seeing a resurgence which also matches up solidly with the rest of the meta. My stance on the SV OU meta has changed from “This tier has some serious issues to be addressed.” to “The tier is surprisingly balanced” which was a mentality I had early in the DLC2 meta.

This may not have been my most polished write-up, but I’ve taken interest in making guides on dealing with certain strategies and mons ever since the Spikes guide. Is there any Pokemon or Strategy you want me to cover how to beat next? I’ll gladly take DMs or Replies.

I don’t know how to end this off,
so here is Roaring Muppet.
View attachment 612869
very well-written post but to clarify, dondozo is a very inconsistent check to DD + taunt roaring moon, it needs avalanche to actually deal damage against it or else it's setup fodder. dondozo can usually set up alongside DD + 3A variants w/ curse but if roaring moon is packing taunt then it's pretty much rendered useless against it. besides that though, i really do find this post to be super informative and helpful advice for patching up your roaring moon MU
 
Roaring Moon is one of the best setup sweepers in the tier. Since it returned from DLC2 after a ban, it has put the tier in a ringer. Roaring Moon has even been under discussion for a ban. I wanted this thing gone so bad, but the more time has gone on, the better my teambuilding and my plays vs Moon have gotten. For those wondering how to deal with this absurd beast, this guide will give you a general idea on how to combat Roaring Moon.

View attachment 612854How To Fight The MoonView attachment 612855

Section I: Sets
View attachment 612857

DD Three Attacks
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake

DD Taunt
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Taunt

Choice Band
Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark/Dragon/Ground
EVs: 32 HP / 220 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Outrage
- Iron Head/Earthquake
- U-turn

As you can see, Moon only runs three sets. DD Three Attacks, Taunt DD, and CB. We could eliminate CB because you’ll only find it on Sun and CB brought up when discussing a RM suspect. What you might notice about the DD sets is that it almost always runs Tera Flying. There are very rare instances of it running Tera Steel or Fairy, but Moon often wants Tera Flying Acro to guarantee an OHKO on Physically Defensive Tusk without Spikes. You just wanna focus on Tera Flying. This is considerably simpler to do than checking Kingambit who could run different items, spreads, and Teras while OHKOing frail resists with +2 Sucker.

Section II: Checks
View attachment 612858
“I check everything, tee hee.” - Dragonite

The reason it is important to talk about the two sets is that the counterplay may vary between them. The ones in bold check Moon regardless of the set or if it Teras, and do so consistently.

DD Three Attacks

-Toxic Gliscor
-Ting-Lu (Short-Term. Can Ruination and Whirlwind out)
-Dondozo
-Weavile (Can Switch Into an Unboosted Hit once. Rkills with Shard)
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz (Post-Tera)
-Balloon Gambit (Short-Term)
-Skarm (Don’t run Speed evs for Gambit. They sometimes run Jolly to outspeed anyways. Your Gambit checking resources are better spent elsewhere)
-Boots Kyurem (64 Def EVs lets you survive a +1 Knock from Moon. Checks Pre-Tera)
-Barb Clef (Forces Tera and threatens with T-Wave. Can win by spamming Moonlight if Moon gets the Barb)
-Balloon Tran (Can eat a Knock with investment and Wisps it)
-Physically Defensive Tusk (Pre-Tera)

DD Taunt

-Dondozo
-Kingambit
-Weavile
-Dragonite
-Zamazenta (Pre-Tera)
-Mandibuzz (Post-Tera)
-Physically Bulky Garganacl
-Tyranitar
-Raging Bolt
-Tinkaton
-Barb Clef
-Boots Kyu (Pre-Tera)
-Physically Defensive Tusk (Pre-Tera)

Section III: Team Composition
View attachment 612867

There are certain team compositions that help deal with Moon. Checks are not just in a vacuum, checks in practice are paired with other mons. They can aid in dealing with a certain threat. This is important for dealing with both sets. For example, Gliscor + Gambit is a great way to deal with Roaring Moon. If you see Moon coming in, go Gliscor, and click Toxic or U-Turn. If Moon clicks Taunt, you will know right away that it is safe for Gambit to come in. Even if Moon somehow beats the Gliscor 1v1, it is Toxic’d and that makes the mindgames with Sucker Punch for Gambit easier.

RH Lando has been one of my favorite ways of handling Moon and most other shit as of late. Chipping down Moon with Helmet, Status, etc is a great way to deal with it, because Roost is almost never used. Lando can weaken it, and then U-Turn out into a check. RM without that +1 boost is much easier to deal with.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 268-316 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 312-368 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 104 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 236-278 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Moon will either click Knock or it will try to DD again. If it DD’s again, you go back into Lando to click U-Turn again. If they click DD again, they’re already taking chip twice, putting it in range of a possible kill.

This means you could pair Lando with any one of the aforementioned checks to cover the Moon MU. My favorite pairing is Lando + Dnite. After rocks and U-Turn, Moon is in range of Ice Spinner or 2 E-Speeds. Yes Weavile Ice Shard deals around 46-55%, but you can put it in that range with certain teammates like Barb Clef, Gliscor, Skarm, etc.

Another thing to consider is a core that can force Moon to Tera and exploit that. To use another Lando example, Lando can force Moon to Tera Flying which Raging Bolt can come in to rkill. On the more defensive side, Clef + Mandi can let Mandi rkill Moon after it clicks Tera Flying since Clef will nuke it otherwise.

One concern that might be brought up is that its bad to have to use 2 mons to check one. However stuff like Lando + Dnite or Gliscor + Weavile already synergizes well with each other regardless of Moon’s presence.

Section IV: Reducing Setup Opportunities
View attachment 612868

So, what can Moon safely setup on? Surprisingly little actually. You might think Samurott since it duals resists its STABs, but even resisted, Razor Shell and Ceaseless do a good chunk to its HP 30% with Jolly Razor. 33% with Adamant. There is also the chance Hamurott is carrying Sacred Sword. It could play Tera mindgames with it, but that is risky since it deals 50% to Tera Flying. Ogerpon, Gholdengo, and Glowking are also possible candidates. They’re all important Pokemon that Moon can scare off. Gking and Ghold can cripple it with status, but losing them can hurt if you need them to check important threats. Losing Ogerpon though isn’t the end of the world. Ogerpon is mainly a wallbreaker and Moon is a setup sweeper exclusive to HO. Assuming the team doesn’t have a Primarina or other mon that Oger needs to check, you could sack it to deal chip or force a Tera with Play Rough. When building your team, consider if the team has free entry for Moon. If it does, consider how you’ll deal with it if it sets up.

So…Do I think Moon is broken?

No Not anymore.

Moon’s weaknesses like its fragility, and its linear gameplan have been shining more in this metagame. Checks like Dtail Dnite, Lando, etc have been seeing higher usage. Lately players have gotten better at chipping Moon down, because the direction teams has been headed towards has been gearing towards using blanket checks like Dnitre with an emphasis on offense to limit the chances of these offensive threats reeking havoc on the team. It isn’t just full HO, BO builds have been seeing a resurgence which also matches up solidly with the rest of the meta. My stance on the SV OU meta has changed from “This tier has some serious issues to be addressed.” to “The tier is surprisingly balanced” which was a mentality I had early in the DLC2 meta.

This may not have been my most polished write-up, but I’ve taken interest in making guides on dealing with certain strategies and mons ever since the Spikes guide. Is there any Pokemon or Strategy you want me to cover how to beat next? I’ll gladly take DMs or Replies.

I don’t know how to end this off,
so here is Roaring Muppet.
View attachment 612869
With all due respect, Roaring Moon is still broken. I appreciate the effort you put in. But it just is. It is extremely punishing and entirely warps the meta.

And even if it doesn't sweep, the pressure it puts on an opposing team and player is very high. You can't make a single mistake. It will usually punch holes and get rid of items enough to be able to open things up for other threats at the very least. You can even win some games just by having Moon on your team simply because the opponent has to be so careful around it that they can't be optimal for your other threats. It really warps everything.

Most of the checks you mentioned are highly situational. They depend on the set and the Tera state. Both are things that are in flux. You don't know what set you are facing until it gets exposed. You can't control an opposing Tera unless you force it. But in order to do this, you generally have to risk sacrificing at least one mon. The sheer amount of resources required to check a single mon isn't healthy in most of these cases.

Even in your Gliscor to Gambit example, this only works if it is the right set and while Gambit still has an Air Balloon. If the Air Balloon is popped, it doesn't work. If they have a ground type like Tusk or Lando-T, it will be really difficult to use Gambit during the match. If Moon is DD and 3 attacks, or if it is something unexpected like Tera Steel, suddenly they get an extra DD off or two and still punch large holes in your team. Like Toxic might be able to prevent a sweep, but it isn't a hard counter. Protect stalling should really only last 1 or 2 turns. In general, it is less harmful for Moon to get poisoned than burned or even paralyzed. A +2 Moon can still be devastating even on a timer. Unless you have a third mon that Moon can't break through in time. But then you are literally devoting half your team to it.

There aren't a lot of blanket check options that work. Revenge killers work, but the speed tier is tricky to deal with. Most of the priority in the tier are resisted by Moon's natural typing or a common Tera. D-night and Weavile aren't, but if those get too common then Moon can actually switch Tera to a type that deals with those things like Steel. There are a lot of variables here that this just doesn't account for. Unaware mons can work on paper. But Clod and Dondozo are passive and lose to Taunt. Dirge requires a Tera. Defensive Clef is interesting, but you lose the ability to check certain other things.

Lando-T does slow progress, kind of, but you also can often set up in its face once or twice depending on the set. If your solution is just run Lando-T on every team, that's not exactly a great solution. Many teams rely on other strong glue ground types like Tusk. You could run multiple grounds, maybe, but not every team is designed to do this is a meta with things like Rain, Rilliaboom, Kyurem, and Ogerpon. The diversity of ground types is one of the strengths of gen 9 OU. Saying just run T as a blanket check would cut down on this significantly.

Also, Moon isn't exactly fragile. It has base 105 HP and 101 SpDef. Those are good stats. 71 base defense is low, but even this can be patched with Grassy Seed or Kee Berry and suddenly it lives a lot of calcs that were designed to kill it. You could also run bulkier sets for easier set up. There are a lot of things that are underexplored with Roaring Moon, particularly in an anti-meta sense that could become pretty scary in the future. Do not think that just because it appears ok to you at the moment that it would stay that way.
 

FayaWizard

Amnesia
is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
You click U-turn on blissey once and then they lose. it also has trick and 2hkos everything else.
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Porygon-Z Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 265-313 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This honestly isn't even that good of a stall breaker, as Clodsire easily sits on this for years with Tera steel, and can lay hazards/spread poison that chips you down. Sure, you can click U-turn, but with no boots you'll need heavy hazard support to constantly keep off hazards, and at that point just run Ursaluna/Hoopa Unbound which can threaten stall far more effectively without burning Tera.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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If your Dondozo is not Avalanche then I would call it a pretty shaky check to Taunt Roaring Moon. If Dozo's only attack is Waterfall or Body Press then it just bounces right off Moon as they easily taunt and chip you down. Even if Dozo has both, Acrobatics might just blow you up anyways.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 160-190 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 3HKO

This isn't even mentioning how they're probably gonna knock off your boots and now you're taking a crapton of hazards damage.

Dondozo also loses to Jaw Lock + Breaking Swipe, ask me how I know.
very well-written post but to clarify, dondozo is a very inconsistent check to DD + taunt roaring moon, it needs avalanche to actually deal damage against it or else it's setup fodder. dondozo can usually set up alongside DD + 3A variants w/ curse but if roaring moon is packing taunt then it's pretty much rendered useless against it. besides that though, i really do find this post to be super informative and helpful advice for patching up your roaring moon MU
Thank you for the feedback. Calling Dozo a consistent Moon check was a mistake on my part. Curse Dozo can handle Three Attacks but fighting Taunt sets might depend on Tera 50/50s. I am interested in seeing Avalance get explored more on Dozo. It hits Lando harder and also Pult while dealing close to as much dmg as Body Press if attacked.

As for the “losing boots” comment. Most of the HO builds Moon finds itself in don’t often run Spikes, and even if Moon switches out after clicking Knock, RM without Booster is considerably weaker. So the trade off isn’t as bad as it’d normally be.
 
You click U-turn on blissey once and then they lose. it also has trick and 2hkos everything else.
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Porygon-Z Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 265-313 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Porygon-Z U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 63-75 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO

Some loss

Also check out the calc after Blissey uses calm mind one (1) time:

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Tera Ice Porygon-Z Blizzard vs. +1 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 146-172 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- 13.4% chance to 4HKO

Trick is disruptive but also choiced sets are very dix vs Blissey bc of Protect
 
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0- Atk Porygon-Z U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 63-75 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO

Some loss

Also check out the calc after Blissey uses calm mind one (1) time:

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Tera Ice Porygon-Z Blizzard vs. +1 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 146-172 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- 13.4% chance to 4HKO

Trick is disruptive but also choiced sets are very dix vs Blissey bc of Protect

1) Porygon Z doesn't learn U-turn. OP obviously meant use something else to clip it.

2) His set runs Download.

3) His set is Modest

4) Porygon Z isn't switching in on Blissey, Bliss is supposed to switch in and take a lot of damage from +1 Tera Blizzard. It takes on average 44% so it isn't a stretch to see Blissey overpowered.

I'm not saying PZ is good in OU but come on man at least try.
 

FayaWizard

Amnesia
is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
1) Porygon Z doesn't learn U-turn. OP obviously meant use something else to clip it.

2) His set runs Download.

3) His set is Modest

4) Porygon Z isn't switching in on Blissey, Bliss is supposed to switch in and take a lot of damage from +1 Tera Blizzard. It takes on average 44% so it isn't a stretch to see Blissey overpowered.

I'm not saying PZ is good in OU but come on man at least try.
So let's analyze a hypothetical game that this would happen in

Assuming one layer of spikes and no rocks come up, Porygon switches in on a forced recovery by Hydrapple. Hydrapple switches out to Blissey, Porygon Z lands the Blizzard, you burn Tera, and you do 44%. What now?

A: The Stall player decides to hang onto Tera for a potential situation in the future, and weathers out the storm with Soft Boiled. You decide to try and break the Blissey. You're now fighting a 70% accurate move, which the Blissey needs simply one turn of a miss to completely flip the tide in their favor, allowing them to get rocks up/a Calm Mind to easily eat the Blizzards. Meanwhile, you are gambling on a much lower 21% chance to freeze (30% of 70%). Not a very favorful matchup, and you can't even PP stall since Blizzard and Soft Boiled have the same PP. In the end, you are much more likely to be forced out.

Or the more likely Scenario B: The Stall player sees that you've burnt Tera and is at the slim chance of losing their Blissey, so they burn Tera to change to Water. Suddenly, your plan is crumbling around you: the Blissey gets free rocks up, you are forced to switch out, and your Porygon will struggle to do much now they are aware of the Specs set, and will play accordingly (scouting with Protect on Mola and Gliscor before switching). At best, you might be able to use this forced Tera to try and break through with another mon like Psyshock Gholdengo, but this leads us to Scenario C.

C: The Stall player has already Tera'd Clodsire. As the only answer to Psyshock Gholdengo, any good stall player would preserve their Tera for Clodsire if they see Gholdengo at preview(and likely Tera early so they don't have to worry about switching into Psyshocks). Once this happens, you're completely stonewalled by Clodsire, which will happily eat any of your attacks, and while you can try to catch it off guard with Trick, there's plenty of other mons that can do the same while offering far more, without burning a Tera slot and a team slot.

So no, Porygon is not a "click button and win" against stall. That's Hoopa Unbound/Ursaluna.
 
Sounds like SwSh meta to me
What a disingenuous take. Even if you smoked every exclusively gen 9 Pokemon and brought back all the old ones with their gen 8 movepools, you're still dealing with mons that weren't in gen 8 and every Pokemon in the game has a changed movepool on top of move changes like the healing nerfs. EDIT: I should let this die because despite their tenure this is clearly a bad troll, but I'd like to see how gen 8 changes if we implement nothing from gen 9 except the heal PP nerfs. Tell me it's the same fucking metagame.
 
What a disingenuous take. Even if you smoked every exclusively gen 9 Pokemon and brought back all the old ones with their gen 8 movepools, you're still dealing with mons that weren't in gen 8 and every Pokemon in the game has a changed movepool on top of move changes like the healing nerfs. EDIT: I should let this die because despite their tenure this is clearly a bad troll, but I'd like to see how gen 8 changes if we implement nothing from gen 9 except the heal PP nerfs. Tell me it's the same fucking metagame.
Yeah I wouldn't bother. They've repeatedly left bad faith comments like this and done nothing but complain about bans all gen long. They really haven't shown they're interested in having an honest discussion on these kinds of matters.

Anyways onto something else, while the suspect is still going on I'm curious. What kinds of mons does everyone find to be underrated or underexplored atm? Got any ideas for sets you want to share?
 
Yeah I wouldn't bother. They've repeatedly left bad faith comments like this and done nothing but complain about bans all gen long. They really haven't shown they're interested in having an honest discussion on these kinds of matters.

Anyways onto something else, while the suspect is still going on I'm curious. What kinds of mons does everyone find to be underrated or underexplored atm? Got any ideas for sets you want to share?
Registeel. I've been using it on a stall team right now and as long as you can get rid of ghost types, this thing fucks up everything in the metagame. Like, it is so easy to get an id or amnesia off and once you do, you basically are indestructable. You can even use rest in the last moveslot to continue the sweep since once you get enough boosts, which is very easy to do, then the two turns wasted are not even that bad. Heck, if you have to pp stall something like gliscor, sleep turns are actually good because you don't need to waste pp on those two turns.
+6 4 Def Tera Fighting Registeel Body Press vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even slowking galar can't take it on unless it has slack off, which most don't. It has to switch out to get recovery, which will guarentee a teamate is ko'd
+6 4 Def Tera Fighting Registeel Body Press vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 95-112 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hatterene can't take it on either, as draining kiss doesn't do much once you are boosted up.
+6 4 Def Tera Fighting Registeel Body Press vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
Gliscor is the best non-ghost type for dealing with it, as it can stall bp pp with protect, but even then it has to be careful.
Registeel is definetely underated, it can demolish some teams easily. Struggling with sun? They most of the time don't even have a ghost type, so they are screwed.
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Fighting Registeel: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even something like tusk you can set up on despite the fact they are super effective against your base typing.

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Light Metal
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Body Press
- Rest
You could definetely invest more in defense, but I find special defense makes it easier to set up on things as special attackers don't expect amnesia.

Roaring Moon @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Roost
Also, bulky moon set. Feasts on teams that try to passively wear it down.
 
Sounds like SwSh meta to me
all right, because this is somehow an argument i keep hearing and it's incredibly disingenuous, i'm going to list out just a few of the differences between swsh ou and cg ou if the changes you quoted were all implemented:
  • recovery moves' pp nerf makes swsh defensive cores less reliable
  • combined with that, the cut distribution of moves like toxic, knock off, teleport and scald basically deletes every good swsh defensive core
  • massively increased spikes distribution and massively decreased defog distribution means that hazards are king
  • grassy glide nerf means rillaboom's priority isn't as overwhelming
  • no tapus
  • no ultra beasts
  • no ferrothorn
  • no melmetal
  • no zeraora
  • no victini, inexplicably
  • no urshifu-rs, it's not coming back even without tera
  • magnezone less used
  • slowbro less used
  • pex less used
  • ttar less used
  • bisharp less used
  • volcanion less used
  • mew completely fucking irrelevant
  • alomomomomola back
  • darkrai back and legal
  • gliscor back
  • serperior back
  • cinderace legal
  • zamazenta legal
  • hatterene relevant because of increased spikes distribution
  • primarina relevant because of psychic noise
  • torkoal relevant because of protosynthesis mons
  • clodsire
  • dondozo
  • enamorus
  • gholdengo
  • glimmora
  • great tusk
  • iron boulder
  • iron treads
  • iron valiant
  • meowscarada
  • hisuian samurott
  • ting-lu
  • walking wake
  • rockpon will probably rise if waterpon goes because every masked ogerpon is fantastic offensively
  • iron moth will also likely fill the power vacuum volc leaves behind, like it did last time
  • protean/libero nerf
  • snow buff
  • chilly reception
  • ice spinner
  • psychic noise
  • trailblaze
  • we don't have sleep moves
and this is just the stuff that's in ou now, there's plenty more relevant stuff in uu/uubl and lower that i'm not covering. so your claims of this somehow magically turning into swsh if those things are banned are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. i am begging you to do some serious research into tiering and the reasoning behind past actions to get better insight into present ones, or to at least get good enough at the game that you can make bad arguments without getting laughed out of the room
 
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and this is just the stuff that's in ou now, there's plenty more relevant stuff in uu/uubl and lower that i'm not covering. so your claims of this somehow magically turning into swsh if those things are banned are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
Respect for finding all those posts, that takes commitment.
But yeah, no generation is the same as another, even if we removed all Gen 9 mons, it would not be remotely similar to SS.
 
all right, because this is somehow an argument i keep hearing and it's incredibly disingenuous, i'm going to list out just a few of the differences between swsh ou and cg ou if the changes you quoted were all implemented:
  • recovery moves' pp nerf makes swsh defensive cores less reliable
  • combined with that, the cut distribution of moves like toxic, knock off, teleport and scald basically deletes every good swsh defensive core
  • massively increased spikes distribution and massively decreased defog distribution means that hazards are king
  • grassy glide nerf means rillaboom's priority isn't as overwhelming
  • no tapus
  • no ultra beasts
  • no ferrothorn
  • no melmetal
  • no zeraora
  • no victini, inexplicably
  • no urshifu-rs, it's not coming back even without tera
  • magnezone less used
  • slowbro less used
  • pex less used
  • ttar less used
  • bisharp less used
  • volcanion less used
  • mew completely fucking irrelevant
  • alomomomomola back
  • darkrai back and legal
  • gliscor back
  • serperior back
  • cinderace legal
  • zamazenta legal
  • hatterene relevant because of increased spikes distribution
  • primarina relevant because of psychic noise
  • torkoal relevant because of protosynthesis mons
  • clodsire
  • dondozo
  • enamorus
  • gholdengo
  • glimmora
  • great tusk
  • iron boulder
  • iron treads
  • iron valiant
  • meowscarada
  • hisuian samurott
  • ting-lu
  • walking wake
  • rockpon will probably rise if waterpon goes because every masked ogerpon is fantastic offensively
  • iron moth will also likely fill the power vacuum volc leaves behind, like it did last time
  • protean/libero nerf
  • snow buff
  • chilly reception
  • ice spinner
  • psychic noise
  • trailblaze
  • we don't have sleep moves
and this is just the stuff that's in ou now, there's plenty more relevant stuff in uu/uubl and lower that i'm not covering. so your claims of this somehow magically turning into swsh if those things are banned are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. i am begging you to do some serious research into tiering and the reasoning behind past actions to get better insight into present ones, or to at least get good enough at the game that you can make bad arguments without getting laughed out of the room
My guy, I was reading through your post and the amount of work you have submitted is definitely above and beyond. Being your professor, I want to congratulate you with a diploma for passing your science project. <3
 
i am begging you to do some serious research into tiering and the reasoning behind past actions to get better insight into present ones, or to at least get good enough at the game that you can make bad arguments without getting laughed out of the room
Aside from my comment I left previously, which I just normally brush off nowadays, this is probably the most genuine post I’ve received from you. I appreciate you mentioning this last bit that I missed. I’ll look into it. Thank you.
 

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