Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

Don't use Electivire in Gen 4 OU. That mon is horrible and even me, a gimmick player, will not use it. It needs to be dropped into UU or NU. You are just prolonging its suffering.
I should note I am not one of those Gen 4 players, but just referencing that this feels reminiscent of being OU only by people using it extensively on ladder. Meow is... nowhere near as bad as Electivire tho.
 
I don't care if me when I actually hit 1750 or so some time ago going to bat for this mediocre cat is the same as Gen 4 Donphan or Electevire being OU exclusively by usage. It is simply a Fun Pokemon and I shan't give in.
donphan was actually niche but ok in gen 4, you're thinking of gen 5 where it became a massive noobtrap. but meowscarada is definitely not even close to the level of donphan and electivire. being able to perform even remotely serviceably in ou would put it leagues above those two, and meowscarada can do more than just that
 
The main issue with it is that its typing is so horrible. Grass+Dark, for all its merits, cannot touch gambit and struggles to hit many common type pairings. This means it always has to have a coverage move to deal even super effective damage against a lot of targets. This really limits its moveslots since it needs stabs and triple axel to be an offensive threat. You don't really want to drop u-turn so that limits set variety, as only the item really changes. And I don't think we need to talk about its defensive qualities. Calling it a shit defensive typing would be putting it nicely and if I accurately explained how bad it was, I would get banned from Smogon.
Though I will say, it is impressive that Meow is even in OU, despite the fact it should probably be ranked in UU. Its beaten a mythical and a legendary (and two shit mons in ZU, sorry but cacturne and shiftry ain't the stuff) in tiering that have the same typing, so it shows how everything else with it is good.
For an innovation, I already talked about toxic spikes meow, but in the past I've used protective pads meow. This was mainly when zapdos was better and meow was better, and teams that would rely on rocky helmet/static procs would get decimated.
It also hurts protean duel typers like meow that unlike the pure fire cinderace it's forced to use it's 1 type change if it wants to use it's stab.
 
donphan was actually niche but ok in gen 4, you're thinking of gen 5 where it became a massive noobtrap. but meowscarada is definitely not even close to the level of donphan and electivire. being able to perform even remotely serviceably in ou would put it leagues above those two, and meowscarada can do more than just that
Gen 5 Donphan isn't too bad, its just very, very specific in the teams it can be used on. Sun teams especially really like its support to get hazards off the field and sturdy + ice shard means it can emergency check most threats and deal with both dragonite and garchomp in a pinch (two ice shards will ko a garchomp from 80% health and dragonite is about 90% if multiscale is broken). Its definetely a good mon, its just on one archetype which isn't the most popular.
https://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/ou_sun
 
Has anyone tried Tera Ghost Volc? I was just thinking that there isn't much that resists Ghost in the tier besides like Blissey and the Dark types. But the only Dark types that are in the tier are either weak to Bug STAB or Gambit who is weak to Fire STAB. With the development of Swarm Volcarona, I feel like it might be rather complimentary. You counter Extreme Speed with Tera and you already naturally resist Grassy Glide. You take care of Thunderclap with Quiver Dance buffing your Sp. Def. enough.
 
Has anyone tried Tera Ghost Volc? I was just thinking that there isn't much that resists Ghost in the tier besides like Blissey and the Dark types. But the only Dark types that are in the tier are either weak to Bug STAB or Gambit who is weak to Fire STAB. With the development of Swarm Volcarona, I feel like it might be rather complimentary. You counter Extreme Speed with Tera and you already naturally resist Grassy Glide. You take care of Thunderclap with Quiver Dance buffing your Sp. Def. enough.
so you know how gambit knows sucker punch?
 
You brought up gambit in your own post, tera ghost volc just loses to gambit unless you are literally someone who can see the future.
It was a really silly question for anybody who actually plays OU. I did mention Gambit very briefly, but I only brought it up to say that it hits it super effectively to point out the lack of resists for the coverage. Gambit wouldn't be a safe switch in "unless you are literally someone who can see the future" because it would die to Fire STAB. You could come in after a KO and Sucker, but that was literally always true. Most Volc Teras don't counter Gambit. The only ones that would are Dark, Fairy, or Fighting, 2 of which I have never even seen. You could try it on Psychic Terrain maybe, but then you have to run Psychic Terrain. I might try this, but I don't know if it will be good.

The point with Volc is you are either outright sweeping or at least taking out enough of the opposing team to open things up for your teammates. Gambit's existence doesn't stop it from being effective.
 
Has anyone tried Tera Ghost Volc? I was just thinking that there isn't much that resists Ghost in the tier besides like Blissey and the Dark types. But the only Dark types that are in the tier are either weak to Bug STAB or Gambit who is weak to Fire STAB. With the development of Swarm Volcarona, I feel like it might be rather complimentary. You counter Extreme Speed with Tera and you already naturally resist Grassy Glide. You take care of Thunderclap with Quiver Dance buffing your Sp. Def. enough.
Cool idea, but yeah the gambit thing is a big problem. You also are incredibly weak to scarf darkrai and moon, who both outspeed you at +1 and are common mons (dark pulse is a 2hit ko even at +1 sp defense). Like, if you have say a dark+fighting+fairy type i.e. anti dark squad, then it could work, but that's an issue. The other two common tera types, ground and dragon, are only weak to one priority type as well. And while hitting most things neutrally is good, it means you can't get the ohkos you want, thus opening yourself up to revenge kills.
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 192-226 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 250-295 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again, could see it working, but tera ground/dragon hits more things super effectively.
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
I really wish they didn't nerf Protean, we'd get a third Protean Starter banned to Ubers in its starting generation. Meowscarada IMO has arguably the highest potential of the three Protean starters, but it came out at the wrong time. Knock Off, U-Turn, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, and more are nice utility, even if not unique. Then it has such good coverage. Flower Trick always critting gives it a nice option that also means defensive setup Pokemon don't matter. Low Kick for Steel-Types. Triple Axel is broken. Swords Dance as an option to setup. Good priority move in Sucker Punch.

But it came out post-Protean being busted wtf. Imagine fighting Swords Dance Triple Axel Sucker Punch Low Kick, what the fuck do you do if you don't outspeed? Just die lol? I guess Toxapex, but that mon is already irrelevant so.
 

Tio Chico

Out until the end of SV
is a Top Tiering Contributor
:Chesnaught:
Chesnaught @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Synthesis
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

I know I said I wasn't going to get the requirements, but I hadn't played since the suspicious Gouging Fire and I went to feel the metagame, and it got worse.
Although I was interested in Chesnaught.
Looking for a Grass type that offered some resistance against Waterpon in addition to other uses.
He has Spikes and Knock Off, catching some unsuspecting mon and helping progress. Although the original idea was for Waterpon, between SD + Play Rough or Encore you just exchange HP with Drain Punch and if you choose Play Rough you can use Tera Grass to remove the weakness to Fairy and maintain the Water and Grass resistances. Ultimately not a solid answer, although I found it to be a good use against Crawdaunt and Hamurott. An alternate Spikes and a secondary Knock Off was good. Bulletproof catches some unsuspecting Shadow and Pyro Ball, in addition to being naturally faster than Kingambit without investment and having recovery in Synthesis.

:Clodsire::Gliscor::Dondozo::Blissey::alomomola::Chesnaught:
Quick comments about teammates.
:Clodsire: Tera Steel (it could be Dark, but I prefer Steel as it maintains immunity to Poisoned) for Stored Power and especially CM + Psyshock Gholdengo and Valiant that caught me by surprise three times on the ladder.
:Gliscor: Tera Ghost for anti-spinner, used in 80% of battles.
:Dondozo: 18 IV Speed is slower, so it acts first under Trick Room against Ursaluna Brave Speed minimum. Mono Body Press for Waterpon. We have other Pokémon on the team to deal with Ghost-types.
:Blissey: Idk about something new or different.
:Alomomola: 52 EVs SpDef survives Drapapult's Draco Meteor Specs. Tera Dark + Protect for Future Sight.
Some automatic loses to Hoopa Unbound and Gouging Fire CB in the sun. And at the end of day Waterpon it is still a problem.
 
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ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
It doesn't get swords dance. Idk if this a hypothetical if it did get swords dance, but it doesn't.
But gods, do I wish it did. I doesn't even get something like work up, only nasty plot (and I will not use nasty plot meow).
Somehow I mixed up Meow and Cinderace in my head like a Dumbass my bad
 
Havent really played a lot lately but loaded up a couple of matches and tried out some fun sets.

I have been using this set to lure in Volcs

DK Crew (Rillaboom) @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Grassy Glide
- Tera Blast
- High Horsepower

Vol users will think of Rilla as free switch in, since the standard sets usually are. You set up with DK on a mon that is usually threatend out by it like Prim and then Tera fire and Volc will become a set-up fodder. Also lures and takes care of the metal birds, CS Kyurem, Heatran and even Gouge although you gotta tera at the right time against BS GF.

Pairs nicely with the Goobfather Gambit who appreciates the above mons being gone.
 
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Cool idea, but yeah the gambit thing is a big problem. You also are incredibly weak to scarf darkrai and moon, who both outspeed you at +1 and are common mons (dark pulse is a 2hit ko even at +1 sp defense). Like, if you have say a dark+fighting+fairy type i.e. anti dark squad, then it could work, but that's an issue. The other two common tera types, ground and dragon, are only weak to one priority type as well. And while hitting most things neutrally is good, it means you can't get the ohkos you want, thus opening yourself up to revenge kills.
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 192-226 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 250-295 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again, could see it working, but tera ground/dragon hits more things super effectively.
This isn't the case for Darkrai. Scarf Darkrai does like less than half to you, and this is even more so if you have the +1 from Quiver Dance. If you Tera Ghost, even Dark Pulse does 82.9 - 98.3% even before the Quiver Dance buff. At +1 it's more like 55.9 - 66.2%. It's a 2HKO even if you Tera Ghost.

Generally, whoever of Moon or Volc is faster/more setup wins barring Tera. Moon has the edge because of Booster Energy and a better speed tier. Volc typically needs to be at + 2 to deal with it. Moon can commonly Tera Flying to resists Bug Buzz, but not all Volc's even run it and then it doesn't resists Fire. So it requires a prediction. This is the case with every Volc set there is.

Gambit is always an issue. I have never heard anybody say that any other Volc set isn't good because Gambit exists. You can also choose when and if to Tera depending on circumstances. You would need to get multiple KOs against the opponent before Sucker Punch 1HKOs in the non Tera form. Like, even Choice Band max attack Adamant Gambit does 88.7 - 104.5% with Sucker Punch before Tera. And this is against a Volcarona that is completely uninvested in defense. Realistically, it won't KO from full even if there are 2 fainted opposing mons and it is using Black Glasses.

This is obviously a different case if you Tera Ghost, but you would be weighing your Tera based on what is happening in the game. If you can counter something like Dragonite, maybe it's worth it to burn a Tera and be vulnerable to Gambit. Or maybe not. I don't think it's that much of a concern.

The only Tera I have seen anyone run that resists Sucker Punch is Tera Fairy. I don't know of anyone who ran Tera Dark or Tera Fighting. Tera Fighting maybe has a shot since it is also super effective to Heatran. But I haven't tested it or run any calcs to know how feasible that is. It also doesn't help at all against Clod. I don't even know of a situation where I would run Tera Dark.

I don't know if Tera Ghost Volc is good. But if it isn't, it won't be because of the Dark types. The main issue of what you said are Heatran (which is a common check for non-Tera Ground) and Raging Bolt. I feel like being able to 2HKO Heatran is still pretty good considering it is supposed to be a check and you probably out damage it. Raging Bolt with BE would 2HKO with Thunderclap, which is a real issue if you are also 2HKOing it. Now you lose to 2 of the 4 most common priority at +1.

Havent really played a lot lately but loaded up a couple of matches and tried out some fun sets.

I have been using this set to lure in Volcs

DK Crew (Rillaboom) @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Grassy Glide
- Tera Blast
- High Horsepower

Vol users will think of Rilla as free switch in, since the standard sets usually are. You set up with DK on a mon that is usually threatend out by it like Prim and then Tera fire and Volc will become a set-up fodder. Also lures and takes care of the metal birds, CS Kyurem, Heatran and even Gouge although you gotta tera at the right time against BS GF.

Pairs nicely with the Goobfather Gambit who appreciates the above mons being gone.
I really like this. Grass and Fire is a nice attacking combo. There was discussion on Tera Fire Meow earlier mostly to avoid burns, but fitting Fire TB on Rillaboom seems a lot better. This is a cool idea.
 
This isn't the case for Darkrai. Scarf Darkrai does like less than half to you, and this is even more so if you have the +1 from Quiver Dance. If you Tera Ghost, even Dark Pulse does 82.9 - 98.3% even before the Quiver Dance buff. At +1 it's more like 55.9 - 66.2%. It's a 2HKO even if you Tera Ghost.

Generally, whoever of Moon or Volc is faster/more setup wins barring Tera. Moon has the edge because of Booster Energy and a better speed tier. Volc typically needs to be at + 2 to deal with it. Moon can commonly Tera Flying to resists Bug Buzz, but not all Volc's even run it and then it doesn't resists Fire. So it requires a prediction. This is the case with every Volc set there is.

Gambit is always an issue. I have never heard anybody say that any other Volc set isn't good because Gambit exists. You can also choose when and if to Tera depending on circumstances. You would need to get multiple KOs against the opponent before Sucker Punch 1HKOs in the non Tera form. Like, even Choice Band max attack Adamant Gambit does 88.7 - 104.5% with Sucker Punch before Tera. And this is against a Volcarona that is completely uninvested in defense. Realistically, it won't KO from full even if there are 2 fainted opposing mons and it is using Black Glasses.

This is obviously a different case if you Tera Ghost, but you would be weighing your Tera based on what is happening in the game. If you can counter something like Dragonite, maybe it's worth it to burn a Tera and be vulnerable to Gambit. Or maybe not. I don't think it's that much of a concern.

The only Tera I have seen anyone run that resists Sucker Punch is Tera Fairy. I don't know of anyone who ran Tera Dark or Tera Fighting. Tera Fighting maybe has a shot since it is also super effective to Heatran. But I haven't tested it or run any calcs to know how feasible that is. It also doesn't help at all against Clod. I don't even know of a situation where I would run Tera Dark.

I don't know if Tera Ghost Volc is good. But if it isn't, it won't be because of the Dark types. The main issue of what you said are Heatran (which is a common check for non-Tera Ground) and Raging Bolt. I feel like being able to 2HKO Heatran is still pretty good considering it is supposed to be a check and you probably out damage it. Raging Bolt with BE would 2HKO with Thunderclap, which is a real issue if you are also 2HKOing it. Now you lose to 2 of the 4 most common priority at +1.



I really like this. Grass and Fire is a nice attacking combo. There was discussion on Tera Fire Meow earlier mostly to avoid burns, but fitting Fire TB on Rillaboom seems a lot better. This is a cool idea.
Well, heatran is one of the best counters (read: check, because volc commonly runs tera ground, so its not as good, shows how bs volc is). Specially defensive heatran is able to potentially take 3 tera blast ghosts, but that's like a 0.1% chance so realistically its taking two. Magma storm is a 3hit ko after trapping, so it won't be able to finish a sweep since the opponent will use priority (which gambit is the best at). Offensive heatran does a bit more damage, but does get 2hit ko'd. Reminder that it will be taking about 20% setting up, so its going to be at best, 50% health. A lot of priority will be able to pick it off from that range, the only one I can think of besides e-speed (which is the main reason for the set) that can't is weavile ice shard, which still does 30%.
Again, its a cool idea, but you would have to make sure that you have heavy anti dark measures and it would probably be best on hazard stack, which means that ghosts neutral hits will be a lot more effective.
Also, this calc is funny.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ghost Volcarona in Grassy Terrain: 268-316 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
I would like to try out tera fighting volc though. Maybe with air slash since that destroys a lot of other mons such as tusk, zama, waterpon and opposing volc. That may be able to take the two other attacks.
 
Cool idea, but yeah the gambit thing is a big problem. You also are incredibly weak to scarf darkrai and moon, who both outspeed you at +1 and are common mons (dark pulse is a 2hit ko even at +1 sp defense). Like, if you have say a dark+fighting+fairy type i.e. anti dark squad, then it could work, but that's an issue. The other two common tera types, ground and dragon, are only weak to one priority type as well. And while hitting most things neutrally is good, it means you can't get the ohkos you want, thus opening yourself up to revenge kills.
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 192-226 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 250-295 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again, could see it working, but tera ground/dragon hits more things super effectively.
I could just be a massive coper (I am) but tera ground should be THE set because otherwise Heatran just hard walls you right? Tera Dragon has its upsides and is definitely worth using on the right team but tera ground should be the default. My point is that I don't see any other tera types (with maybe the exception of rock if you really want to troll a dragonite user) being useful on The Matchup Moth.
 
I could just be a massive coper (I am) but tera ground should be THE set because otherwise Heatran just hard walls you right? Tera Dragon has its upsides and is definitely worth using on the right team but tera ground should be the default. My point is that I don't see any other tera types (with maybe the exception of rock if you really want to troll a dragonite user) being useful on The Matchup Moth.
Well, tera ground volc is walled hard by dragonite, who it can't do much to, while still being good against a lot of mons since fire+dragon is a good type combo (gouging much?). Tera ground is the default set, its just that tera dragon is also decently popular. The other tera types such as grass and water are to suprise apparently 'consistent' counterplay like primarina (who is 3hit ko'd by tera blast ground if its assault vest, and bulky cm has a good chance to be 2hit ko'd btw, that's consistent).
 
I could just be a massive coper (I am) but tera ground should be THE set because otherwise Heatran just hard walls you right? Tera Dragon has its upsides and is definitely worth using on the right team but tera ground should be the default. My point is that I don't see any other tera types (with maybe the exception of rock if you really want to troll a dragonite user) being useful on The Matchup Moth.
At face value Tera ground is the most optimal, not just because of heatran but generally useful.

tera dragon is trendy because it wrecks a lot of HO and offense. These are the most trendy teams on high ladder rn.
 
Has anyone tried Tera Ghost Volc? I was just thinking that there isn't much that resists Ghost in the tier besides like Blissey and the Dark types. But the only Dark types that are in the tier are either weak to Bug STAB or Gambit who is weak to Fire STAB. With the development of Swarm Volcarona, I feel like it might be rather complimentary. You counter Extreme Speed with Tera and you already naturally resist Grassy Glide. You take care of Thunderclap with Quiver Dance buffing your Sp. Def. enough.
I would try it with sub instead of bug buzz, that way you don't even worry about sucker punch. You'd still lose to Moon but you pretty much always will anyway. With this you'd have a Chandelure that can boost it's speed, sounds fun to use just to troll Dragonite.
I could just be a massive coper (I am) but tera ground should be THE set because otherwise Heatran just hard walls you right? Tera Dragon has its upsides and is definitely worth using on the right team but tera ground should be the default. My point is that I don't see any other tera types (with maybe the exception of rock if you really want to troll a dragonite user) being useful on The Matchup Moth.
Volc can 1v1 Heatran without tera ground with a couple boosts. Magma storm is the worst move in the game and Volc can heal itself.
 
This metagame is literally in shambles. There's no way when I'm climbing the ladder to try and get the suspect test reqs that 80% of the teams i run into lead with glimmora for HO. It's gotten to the point where ribombee is ranked in ou (and we all know that's the sign of a healthy metagame) and the only proper counter play for glimmora is to run special lando-t. If you don't run at least a great tusk then you have no reliable form of hazards removal (excluding defog since it removes both sides and easily gets blocked by ghengo), kingambit is so overpowered that it has the ability to reverse sweep an entire team if given the chance, gholdengo literally denies any form of hazards removal and can run specs or scarf to obliterate a gtusk. Some pokemon are very clearly broken, like the examples above, but also things like acrobatics roaring moon with the obscene attack stat, raging bolt having enough spA to 2HKO a clodsire with a draco, yet the mods decide to focus on suspect testing a bug with a horrible weakness to rock that gets shut down by knock off + whirlwind as an example, and also just any physical priority or a simple iron boulder. I've been running a mamoswine thick fat team that got me to 1500 and it easily stopped any volcarona from trying to setup with earthquake. I can understand that it can tera out of its weaknesses but that doesn't matter when it literally gets stopped by the other broken things in the tier i listed above.

Tldr. I don't understand why volcarona is being suspect tested when there's are so many other pokemon that are very clearly too broken for the tier
 

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