Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [OLT HYPE]

:Darkrai: - Probably the most broken of the three pokemon I'm talking about, but I think it's still too early for suspecting Rai. Darkrai has caught a lot of attention from WCoP, largely for its ability to beat down certain balance structures. My issue with using this as a justification for a ban right now is that the balance teams I've been seeing in WCoP feel largely outdated. For example, a typical SD Scor balance runs into all sorts of issues when it comes to switching into threats, because the structure's options are largely limited by SD Scor's desperate need to be paired with at least Spikes (ideally Rocks as well) and Gliscor's general inability to handle or even deter major offensive threats from setting up. These teams face pressure from most playstyles in the metagame, whether it's from Wellspring/Rai/Kyurem/Ghold/opposing SD Scor/Gouging Fire/even Raging Bolt, and those are just the high tier mons that put major pressure on balances. With this in mind, I think it's really hard to justify balance structures that force you into the same defensive picks every time - if you're running Gliscor + Skarm + Clef, not only are you running an incredibly predictable core of 3, you're also going to be limited in what you can use in the last 3 slots, since you're always allowing/aiming for the max hazards trade, leaving you with only Boots options to pick from (most of which simply cannot handle the current threat level). While the structures I'm talking about are not passive (they do make progress very reliably at least in longer games), they do struggle heavily to influence games when the matchup is not in their favour. Frankly, I think the meta at least needs some time before a Rai suspect, so people can figure out how to give balance teams more tools against offense matchups, or go the other way and run stall instead.
The problem with this is that NP Psyshock Darkrai ravages stall or at least forces a Tera, which is often the most important resource in a battle, so I don't think players adapting by using stall against offense would do anything to meaningfully limit Darkrai. Granted I don't even disagree that we need some time before we suspect Darkrai as I believe if we were to suspect it immediately the verdict would be DNB, making it almost a waste of time. It would be better for Darkrai to get some more time in the limelight before it becomes the next suspect target.
 
Gotta agree with someone who has been EXCLUSIVELY using :Kyurem: the past few months, sure once it gets going, especially with Specs and Snow to help longevity, its good. But that 95 speed stat might as well put it on a death timer, its gonna get chipped to death. Especially since to deal real good damage you gotta drop the boots which means 25% chip from Rocks. So I still agree with the previous decision on the Test to not ban it.
I think the rocks chip on Kyurem is quite exaggerated considering that it will often be paired with considerable hazard control. Also to me, it’s issue is specifically into balance match ups where it can fish for freezes and Tera to power through checks.
There are fair counter arguments to not ban it considering it’s relatively poor offense match up, but if it’s in, it’s getting a kill or massive damage off. And if you guess the wrong set, you’re screwed. Not to mention it’s best switch in gives it a defense boost as it pivots out.
 
I think the rocks chip on Kyurem is quite exaggerated considering that it will often be paired with considerable hazard control. Also to me, it’s issue is specifically into balance match ups where it can fish for freezes and Tera to power through checks.
There are fair counter arguments to not ban it considering it’s relatively poor offense match up, but if it’s in, it’s getting a kill or massive damage off. And if you guess the wrong set, you’re screwed. Not to mention it’s best switch in gives it a defense boost as it pivots out.
Yeah I should have mentioned the upsides of Kyurem (which is why I use it as well lol) cause yeah it has absolute potential to be a beast but I think in due time it'll settle pretty solidly in the meta, of course someone could find some cracked team + set that then sends it to the moon which yeah I agree it has a degree of volitily but I think a Kyurem Suspect rn is a waste of time when theres just so many bigger and harder to punish threats roaming the meta.
 
The problem with this is that NP Psyshock Darkrai ravages stall or at least forces a Tera, which is often the most important resource in a battle, so I don't think players adapting by using stall against offense would do anything to meaningfully limit Darkrai. Granted I don't even disagree that we need some time before we suspect Darkrai as I believe if we were to suspect it immediately the verdict would be DNB, making it almost a waste of time. It would be better for Darkrai to get some more time in the limelight before it becomes the next suspect target.
Psyshock is a costly move on NP Darkrai since it already has to chose two out of Sludge Bomb, Focus Miss, and Ice Beam. Any meta changes that further increase Darkrai’s 4MSS will help.
 
Psyshock is a costly move on NP Darkrai since it already has to chose two out of Sludge Bomb, Focus Miss, and Ice Beam. Any meta changes that further increase Darkrai’s 4MSS will help.
NP Darkrai does not need two out of Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb, and Ice Beam. NP, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, and Psyshock (trashes most Fairy-type Pokemon at +2 aside from Tinkaton and Clefable) hits pretty much the entire tier. Just make sure you break Dragonite's Multiscale beforehand, and it should do well if you have enough chip on the enemy team.
 
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Great post. If this is your "lazy" analysis then I'm kinda afraid of what it looks like when you give 100% lol
Gouging is forsure insane, just a better M-Char-X. I don't think it's close to its full potential but as long as it has trouble with Dozo, Fairy/Water Garg, Gliscor, Prima, etc. then I'm not that mad at it.

SV is defined by how volatile and capricious it is. Even those who are far-sighted and can notice overarching trends have been surprised by what we've gotten used to. Gambit and Gold were practically surrounded by torch wielding mobs at one point and now they're just sorta whatever. I'm also a firm believer in letting a meta breathe; the playerbase as a whole usually knows when something is truly broken and then it's banned with a clear majority.

The most fun I've had building since Gen 7 is trying to find off-meta counters to the cookie cutter teams that pervade the SV ladder. Specs Comfey (D-Kiss, Giga, Trick, CM) is insane rn vs HO and BO and not even as a meme. I'll vs a team who's last 4 mons are Tusk, Pult, Moon and Rai. This isn't uncommon and it puts a lot of pressure on teams to be wary about burning a Tera or Comfey clean sweeps. Even Val, Kyu, Bolt, Nite and Zama also fold unless they Tera. One little silly mon puts insane pressure on the most common offense cores.

Personally, SV will never feel like a "real" meta to me due to Tera. When you have such inconsistent end-game mapping thanks to not being able to set up consistent win conditions then the meta doesn't feel valid. Executing your late-game plan that you worked all match to get into a certain position for, i.e., weakening walls to put things in range, getting rid of your win-cons hard counter, predicting that your opp is also aware of your end game and having a second win-con they aren't as focused on, etc., only to have something change into an essentially different mon and take that work away from you will always feel silly. Tera is like a turn within a turn and it creates space for easy bail outs or sweeps vs an otherwise fair MU.

I say all that not to bring up the long dead Tera conversation, it's simply to illustrate we can get used to anything that isn't insanely broken. If we can handle a Dark/Steel mon turning into a Fairy with a Fairy STAB within a turn, then we can handle Kyurem and Darkrai. This is literally the meta most people want, and personally I've had no trouble with any of the mons on the survey with some exceptions if they Tera, but again, we voted for this. You can't have a meta with such a volatile mechanic baked into its core and expect consistent outcomes.

Post-Volc meta needs at least another few months in the oven, straight up. Nothing on the recent survey showed any promise of reaching a majority ban. Players who are in favor of banning multiple mons should realize that the moment we leave a dedicated offensive Tera meta we enter into a dedicated defensive Tera meta. Do we really want to lose more breakers? All the shrieking about if we ban Tera then SV will turn into SS will be ironic af since I would put money on a defensive heavy Tera meta making SS look fast-paced and hardcore in comparison.
I hate tera, but may as well embrace it since Smogon community is sticking its head in the sand.

Try using Stellar Tera Blast on your sweepers. It does away with a lot of the nonsense guessing games that tera promotes. Specs Stellar :enamorus: is a great example of a win condition that you can execute a gameplay for. It wipes everything that's not hard stall with a clean switch and a layer of hazards. Even on non-contrary pokemon, I think it is a great coverage option on any sweepers with more than ~130 attacking stats.

===================

On a more general note, my personal issue tiers are:

Extreme: :Terapagos-Stellar: (Tera). Tera be broke. Please just make a declaration on if this will be banned or not. That would make tiering everything else so much easier, one way or another. Tera is fun and skill-testing too, especially in building, but I think it just makes a bunch of stuff dumb.

High: :Gouging Fire::Raging Bolt::Kingambit: These are all way too bulky and can flip matchups with tera and then get more free turns. I think mechanics that remove counterplay via revenge killing are not very fair when they can be executed with such low risk (compared to something like psychic terrain). If people would use Raging bolts sets that aren't just booster CM, such as specs or taunt, then I think this would be more obviously broken.

Mid: :Garganacl::Zamazenta::Ting-Lu::Slowking galar::darkrai: Garganacl prob be in high for how stupid and fishy it is. bargain bin gameplay. The others are just dumb fat stuff. :Ting-lu: specifically is a very ridiculous pile of stats. Zamazenta would be high, but it only is restictive to offense. pretty dumb that it 6-0s after an ID though. I think sash :darkrai: is dumb, but that's only an issue off lead.

Boots spam is probably the style that we should aim to eradicate. With the stats + defensive teras I think this is a very uninteractive matchup for most teams. Hard stall is OK to me. That's more a of a team-building check. also :focus sash: is just a goofy item, but maybe that's more indicative of Dragapult. :kyurem: and OGER just not that good...use speed control challenge; difficulty:impossible

Lastly, I am finding Screens (whether from Aurora Veil or plain ol double screens) to be very good. people seem to have forgotten that defog exists, so you just get free +2 defenses. very good for you all who are predisposed to have challenged vs offenses.
 
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I hate tera, but may as well embrace it since Smogon community is sticking its head in the sand.

Try using Stellar Tera Blast on your sweepers. It does away with a lot of the nonsense guessing games that tera promotes. Specs Stellar :enamorus: is a great example of a win condition that you can execute a gameplay for. It wipes everything that's not hard stall with a clean switch and a layer of hazards. Even on non-contrary pokemon, I think it is a great coverage option on any sweepers with more than ~130 attacking stats.

===================

On a more general note, my personal issue tiers are:

Extreme: :Terapagos-Stellar: (Tera). Tera be broke. Please just make a declaration on if this will be banned or not. That would make tiering everything else so much easier, one way or another.

High: :Gouging Fire::Raging Bolt::Kingambit: These are all way too bulky and can flip matchups with tera and then get more free turns. I think mechanics that remove counterplay via revenge killing are not very fair when they can be executed with such low risk (compared to something like psychic terrain). If people would use Raging bolts sets that aren't just booster CM, such as specs or taunt, then I think this would be more obviously broken.

Mid: :Garganacl::Zamazenta::Ting-Lu::Slowking galar::darkrai: Garganacl prob be in high for how stupid and fishy it is. bargain bin gameplay. The others are just dumb fat stuff. :Ting-lu: specifically is a very ridiculous pile of stats. Zamazenta would be high, but it only is restictive to offense. pretty dumb that it 6-0s after an ID though. I think sash :darkrai: is dumb, but that's only an issue off lead.

Boots spam is probably the style that we should aim to eradicate. With the stats + defensive teras I think this is a very uninteractive matchup for most teams. Hard stall is OK to me. That's more a of a team-building check. also :focus sash: is just a goofy item, but maybe that's more indicative of Dragapult. :kyurem: and OGER just not that good...use speed control challenge; difficulty:impossible

Lastly, I am finding Screens (whether from Aurora Veil or plain ol double screens) to be very good. people seem to have forgotten that defog exists, so you just get free +2 defenses. very good for you all who are predisposed to have challenged vs offenses.
Someday when everyone is busy with Gen 10 Mega Bidoof suspect test; you, me and all the paldean homies will squad up and get Tera banned once and for all.
 
Raging Bolt is nowhere near broken, nor is Kingambit. They both have a health amount of outs both in the builder and in game while they also offer healthy and important anti offense tools which cuts down on cheese nonsense in the tier.

For that matter, Garg is not ban worthy either. It’s a strong top tier Pokémon at this point and yes, it’s annoying, but many strong picks are. Ting-Lu isn’t either and I don’t know how anyone could reach that idea. Both It and Gary are crucial defensive presences that help defensive structures function by checking a wide amount of threats while keeping up pressure themselves with their moves. Glowking also isn’t even close to broken what.

Lastly we never aim to “eradicate” styles ever. Boots spam teams aren’t even the best playstyle let alone very hard to handle.
 
I hate tera, but may as well embrace it since Smogon community is sticking its head in the sand.

Try using Stellar Tera Blast on your sweepers. It does away with a lot of the nonsense guessing games that tera promotes. Specs Stellar :enamorus: is a great example of a win condition that you can execute a gameplay for. It wipes everything that's not hard stall with a clean switch and a layer of hazards. Even on non-contrary pokemon, I think it is a great coverage option on any sweepers with more than ~130 attacking stats.

===================

On a more general note, my personal issue tiers are:

Extreme: :Terapagos-Stellar: (Tera). Tera be broke. Please just make a declaration on if this will be banned or not. That would make tiering everything else so much easier, one way or another.

High: :Gouging Fire::Raging Bolt::Kingambit: These are all way too bulky and can flip matchups with tera and then get more free turns. I think mechanics that remove counterplay via revenge killing are not very fair when they can be executed with such low risk (compared to something like psychic terrain). If people would use Raging bolts sets that aren't just booster CM, such as specs or taunt, then I think this would be more obviously broken.

Mid: :Garganacl::Zamazenta::Ting-Lu::Slowking galar::darkrai: Garganacl prob be in high for how stupid and fishy it is. bargain bin gameplay. The others are just dumb fat stuff. :Ting-lu: specifically is a very ridiculous pile of stats. Zamazenta would be high, but it only is restictive to offense. pretty dumb that it 6-0s after an ID though. I think sash :darkrai: is dumb, but that's only an issue off lead.

Boots spam is probably the style that we should aim to eradicate. With the stats + defensive teras I think this is a very uninteractive matchup for most teams. Hard stall is OK to me. That's more a of a team-building check. also :focus sash: is just a goofy item, but maybe that's more indicative of Dragapult. :kyurem: and OGER just not that good...use speed control challenge; difficulty:impossible

Lastly, I am finding Screens (whether from Aurora Veil or plain ol double screens) to be very good. people seem to have forgotten that defog exists, so you just get free +2 defenses. very good for you all who are predisposed to have challenged vs offenses.
based i love actual good takes like this keep it up bro
 
Raging Bolt is nowhere near broken, nor is Kingambit. They both have a health amount of outs both in the builder and in game while they also offer healthy and important anti offense tools which cuts down on cheese nonsense in the tier.

For that matter, Garg is not ban worthy either. It’s a strong top tier Pokémon at this point and yes, it’s annoying, but many strong picks are. Ting-Lu isn’t either and I don’t know how anyone could reach that idea. Both It and Gary are crucial defensive presences that help defensive structures function by checking a wide amount of threats while keeping up pressure themselves with their moves. Glowking also isn’t even close to broken what.

Lastly we never aim to “eradicate” styles ever. Boots spam teams aren’t even the best playstyle let alone very hard to handle.
Yeah, his take is insane. Boots spam teams struggle a lot against the current high offensive power of the tier. Considering this guy has been telling everybody to play offense, he is obviously not using the best tools offense has to offer, which would be why he is struggling against Boots spam teams and wanting to ban at least 9 mons...
 
NP Darkrai does not need two out of Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb, and Ice Beam. NP, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, and Psyshock (trashes most Fairy-type Pokemon at +2 aside from Tinkaton) hits pretty much the entire tier. Just make sure you break Dragonite's Multiscale beforehand, and it should do well if you have enough chip on the enemy team.
Darkrai absolutely wants Sludge Bomb for Primarina, Clefable, Zamazenta (it’s your best option when combo’d with Tera Poison), and most Tera Fairy mons (Glowking, Ghold). Ice beam is obviously super useful to kill very common things like Gliscor, Lando, and Tusk if you aren’t able to get a Nasty Plot up. This is a very common situation since Darkrai is often too pressured to get off a boost. One of the reasons why NP Darkrai is so good is being able to snipe these mons at any time with Ice Beam. Beyond that, it’s your only move that OHKOs Bolt and Bulky Dnite (multiscale broken) at +2. These are both mons that you don’t want to leave lingering around due to their access to priority. Dropping this also makes you rely on Focus Miss to OHKO Tusk at +2, which is not optimal.

TLDR: There’s a reason why Smogon lists Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb as primary moves for NP Darkrai. Dark Pulse/Focus Blasts/Psyshock is a set that improves the stall matchup at the cost of being worse against balance and BO as described above.
 
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Psyshock is a costly move on NP Darkrai since it already has to chose two out of Sludge Bomb, Focus Miss, and Ice Beam. Any meta changes that further increase Darkrai’s 4MSS will help.
It's pretty great set when paired with other special breakers like Ghold and Raging Bolt since it lures and breaks shared checks like Iron Moth, Ting-Lu and Clod. Psyshock is good for bliss, while Tera Fighting Focus Blast blows through steel clod and Ting-lu which is pretty chill to help the other breakers.
 
It's pretty great set when paired with other special breakers like Ghold and Raging Bolt since it lures and breaks shared checks like Iron Moth, Ting-Lu and Clod. Psyshock is good for bliss, while Tera Fighting Focus Blast blows through steel clod and Ting-lu which is pretty chill to help the other breakers.
Good point. I’m not meaning to imply that Psyshock is bad. I’m sure it’s great on the right teams as you’ve said. My point is that increased stall = more psyshock Darkrai and less sludge bomb/ice beam Rai = an easier time for balance and BO structures using things like Primarina, Zama, Tera Fairy Garg/Ghold, Clefable, and Bolt, among others.

Personally (and I recognize I’m just one person here) the balance teams I use against 1800s Rai users would much prefer facing the Psyshock set. So by all means keep using Psyshock folks :)
 
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Darkrai absolutely wants Sludge Bomb for Primarina, Clefable, Zamazenta (it’s your best option when combo’d with Tera Poison), and most Tera Fairy mons (Glowking, Ghold). Ice beam is obviously super useful to kill very common things like Gliscor, Lando, and Tusk if you aren’t able to get a Nasty Plot up. This is a very common situation since Darkrai is often too pressured to get off a boost. One of the reasons why NP Darkrai is so good is being able to snipe these mons at any time. Beyond that, it’s your only move that OHKOs Bolt and Bulky Dnite (multiscale broken) at +2. These are both mons that you don’t want to leave lingering around due to their access to priority. Dropping this also makes you rely on Focus Miss to hit Tusk at +2, which is not optimal at all.

TLDR: There’s a reason why Smogon lists Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb as primary moves for NP Darkrai. Dark Pulse/Focus Blasts/Psyshock is a set that improves the stall matchup at the cost of being worse against balance and BO as described above.
Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and Sludge Bomb, is walled by Kingambit, the #1 mon in the tier, so I'm really not keen on that set.

As for the calc against Primarina: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 230-271 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Primarina is not eating that well at all, and it doesn't take much chip for it to lose outright.

I admit that Clefable does well against NP Psyshock, but Clefable is hardly tough to handle with the high offensive power of the tier, and you can deal with it with your teammates.

As for Zamazenta, Darkrai needs to Tera to beat it, and it's best to beat Zama with something else since Tera is an important resource unless you know that blowing your Tera on Darkrai means that you win.

There's nothing saying Dragonite will be at 100% the whole match since it is relied on to check many mons and can't always be kept out of the early game to stay healthy. If Multiscale is broken, Dark Pulse decimates Dragonite: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Raging Bolt may not be OHKOed by +2 Dark Pulse unless Darkrai has Life Orb, but games aren't played in a vacuum, and Raging Bolt won't always be at 100%.

That's not true that Darkrai would be relying on Focus Blast to hit Great Tusk.

+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 338-401 (91.1 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

With any sort of chip, Great Tusk is done and dusted unless it Teras.
 
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Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and Sludge Bomb, is walled by Kingambit, the #1 mon in the tier, so I'm really not keen on that set.

As for the calc against Primarina: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 230-271 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Primarina is not eating that well at all, and it doesn't take much chip for it to lose outright.

I admit that Clefable does well against NP Psyshock, but Clefable is hardly tough to handle with the high offensive power of the tier, and you can deal with it with your teammates.

As for Zamazenta, Darkrai needs to Tera to beat it, and it's best to beat Zama with something else since Tera is an important resource unless you know that blowing your Tera on Darkrai means that you win.

There's nothing saying Dragonite will be at 100% the whole match since it is relied on to check many mons and can't always be kept out of the early game to stay healthy. If Multiscale is broken, Dark Pulse decimates Dragonite: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Raging Bolt may not be OHKOed by +2 Dark Pulse unless Darkrai has Life Orb, but games aren't played in a vacuum, and Raging Bolt won't always be at 100%

That's not true that Darkrai would be relying on Focus Blast to hit Great Tusk.

+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 338-401 (91.1 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

With any sort of chip, Great Tusk is done and dusted unless it Teras.
We could go back and forth exchanging calcs :) My point is not that one is better than the other, but that adding Psyshock improves some matchups at the expense of others. Not all of these matchups are occurring at +2 because just as certain checks aren’t gonna be at 100% at every match, a skilled opponent will try to minimize the opportunities for Darkrai to setup so you’re not gonna get an easy +2 every match. Which again, is why Ice Beam is such a good move on Darkrai when you’re able to slot it on. I agree with you that hitting Gambit is pretty important so I personally would not be dropping Focus Blast on Rai, though some do.

Overall though, I can totally see how Psyshock Rai is an effective set. Might have to try it out sometime!
 
I hate tera, but may as well embrace it since Smogon community is sticking its head in the sand.

Try using Stellar Tera Blast on your sweepers. It does away with a lot of the nonsense guessing games that tera promotes. Specs Stellar :enamorus: is a great example of a win condition that you can execute a gameplay for. It wipes everything that's not hard stall with a clean switch and a layer of hazards. Even on non-contrary pokemon, I think it is a great coverage option on any sweepers with more than ~130 attacking stats.

===================

On a more general note, my personal issue tiers are:

Extreme: :Terapagos-Stellar: (Tera). Tera be broke. Please just make a declaration on if this will be banned or not. That would make tiering everything else so much easier, one way or another. Tera is fun and skill-testing too, especially in building, but I think it just makes a bunch of stuff dumb.

High: :Gouging Fire::Raging Bolt::Kingambit: These are all way too bulky and can flip matchups with tera and then get more free turns. I think mechanics that remove counterplay via revenge killing are not very fair when they can be executed with such low risk (compared to something like psychic terrain). If people would use Raging bolts sets that aren't just booster CM, such as specs or taunt, then I think this would be more obviously broken.

Mid: :Garganacl::Zamazenta::Ting-Lu::Slowking galar::darkrai: Garganacl prob be in high for how stupid and fishy it is. bargain bin gameplay. The others are just dumb fat stuff. :Ting-lu: specifically is a very ridiculous pile of stats. Zamazenta would be high, but it only is restictive to offense. pretty dumb that it 6-0s after an ID though. I think sash :darkrai: is dumb, but that's only an issue off lead.

Boots spam is probably the style that we should aim to eradicate. With the stats + defensive teras I think this is a very uninteractive matchup for most teams. Hard stall is OK to me. That's more a of a team-building check. also :focus sash: is just a goofy item, but maybe that's more indicative of Dragapult. :kyurem: and OGER just not that good...use speed control challenge; difficulty:impossible

Lastly, I am finding Screens (whether from Aurora Veil or plain ol double screens) to be very good. people seem to have forgotten that defog exists, so you just get free +2 defenses. very good for you all who are predisposed to have challenged vs offenses.
Tera is dumb but for different reasons than you are saying. The entire mechanic, while being skillful is a matchup fish by nature and creates unhealthy dynamics but a lot of the mons you list aren't even broken right now even if some of them have potential to be with tera. Like I think tera is broken and probably not good for the meta as a whole and probably contributes to a lot of the meta problems despite being fun and skillful in some ways, but the broken mons you list in the high section are just not broken.
Don't expect action on tera since it is nowhere near a priority at the current moment, and if it ever goes or gets action at all it probably won't be until this tier is an old gen if the meta is still in a messy state (Which I think it very well could be after the generation ends with how slow action has been and how much of a pain this tier is to balance. If this is the case, I get the feeling oldgen players will not be nice to this tier when the gen ends.)
Enough of that tera tangent.

God these other takes are awful, I can't lie.

I can't agree with most of these. Darkrai is potentially broken to me and Kyurem and Waterpon are busted and need to go. This person has never had their fat teams evicerated by Waterpon and also Kyurem before. Neither really have defensive checks at all so i'm tired of pretending they both do.

At least with darkrai while it can pick and choose its sets it can be held back by frailty and general 4mss that can occassionally limit it against certain threats. That is not a factor with Kyurem and Waterpon as they don't have any switchins at all really and make bulky teams really hard to run in this meta.

The fact this person sees garg and TING LU as broken is hilarious to me. Those mons are perfectly fine ngl. Crazy there are people who think garg is busted still
 
Personally (and I recognize I’m just one person here) the balance teams I use against 1800s Rai users would much prefer facing the Psyshock set. So by all means keep using Psyshock folks :)
I was willing to eat an infraction and tell you to shut up before I saw this part.

Listen to them. They are wise. Drop Ice Beam off your Darkrai. Psyshock is much better. Glowking hates it. :boi:


This message bought to you by the balance gang
 
A commentary i want to make on Gen 9 OU, a tier i have a love/ hate relationship with, is that i do consider most playstyles viable if youre willing to get creative in the teambuilder. Thats something i really like about this format. And one of the cooler things I've found, is that while hazards are more widely distributed than ever, and removal is the weakest its been in 3 generations, the powercreep is so nasty this gen you can really put the hurt on hazard stack teams with raw firepower since they give up so many turns setting up hazards. With all that being said, today i will share with you a rarely seen strategy, Sun + Webs :v4:

I'll start by saying :roaring moon: is a disgrace to the OU tier. My set is highly unorthodox but in this replay you will observe it taking 85% from :iron valiant: close combat. max defense roaring moon is a gross new technology we are yet to truly understand. Here is the team paste for anyone interested

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Iron Head

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Sticky Web
- Thunder
- Energy Ball

Ninetales @ Eject Pack
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Memento
- Scorching Sands
- Will-O-Wisp

Great Tusk @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Headlong Rush
- Knock Off
- Ice Spinner

Raging Bolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Thunderclap
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Weather Ball

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Court Change
- U-turn

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2148494328-jjzntahtbzedgxwb7scd10046dekp6opw

Theres a few things to unpack with this team. I'll start with :ninetales:, who i consider the better sun setter on a team like this. A lot of sun teams require sun up at all times to function but this one doesnt. for that reason heat rock :torkoal: would just be a momentum sink. eject pack overheat is extremely useful. Not only for calcs such as this:

252 SpA :Ninetales: Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD :Darkrai: in Sun: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

but more importantly for situations like this:

252 SpA :Ninetales: Overheat vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD :Primarina: in Sun: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA :Ninetales: Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD :Iron Moth: in Sun: 107-126 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

where you can guarantee breaking the sub + getting a switch to something favourable, whereas :torkoal: can still run eject pack, theyll be boosting before you move and you wont break the sub. As this team has some really greedy wallbreakers such as life orb :raging bolt: and Adamant CB :great tusk:, you dont need the extra turns of setup from heat rock. eject pack/ momento into one of these breakers and take a KO.

:Roaring moon: barely uses the sun on this team, Its mainly a bluff on a choice item to scare people into switching and get an extra DD. It busts a nut. Every. Single. Game. The dark steel combo is fearsome (not like we should be surprised) and it can cheese past anything sturdy with iron head (cheap ass move, gamefreak). 44 speed creeps :dragonite: and :dragapult: after 1 DD. This ties into why i choose :galvantula: over :ribombee:. :galvantula: has 100% accurate thunder wave, and there are games where that is the better choice over webs. Anytime i face that situation with :ribombee: i start sweating about stun spore missing.

Finally :cinderace: is there for a high powered pyro ball under sun and for a secondary priority option in a pinch. he has hazard control should i choose to not use webs in a game, but court change is a rare occurence. I havent tried this but you could try :infernape:, who has overheat+vacuum wave or flareblitz+mach punch. obviously you have no hazard control AT ALL then but like i said at the start, you have the firepower to manage that, and you can bluff spin with tusk.

Thankyou for reading
 
A commentary i want to make on Gen 9 OU, a tier i have a love/ hate relationship with, is that i do consider most playstyles viable if youre willing to get creative in the teambuilder. Thats something i really like about this format. And one of the cooler things I've found, is that while hazards are more widely distributed than ever, and removal is the weakest its been in 3 generations, the powercreep is so nasty this gen you can really put the hurt on hazard stack teams with raw firepower since they give up so many turns setting up hazards. With all that being said, today i will share with you a rarely seen strategy, Sun + Webs :v4:

I'll start by saying :roaring moon: is a disgrace to the OU tier. My set is highly unorthodox but in this replay you will observe it taking 85% from :iron valiant: close combat. max defense roaring moon is a gross new technology we are yet to truly understand. Here is the team paste for anyone interested

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Iron Head

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Sticky Web
- Thunder
- Energy Ball

Ninetales @ Eject Pack
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Memento
- Scorching Sands
- Will-O-Wisp

Great Tusk @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Headlong Rush
- Knock Off
- Ice Spinner

Raging Bolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Thunderclap
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Weather Ball

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Court Change
- U-turn

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2148494328-jjzntahtbzedgxwb7scd10046dekp6opw

Theres a few things to unpack with this team. I'll start with :ninetales:, who i consider the better sun setter on a team like this. A lot of sun teams require sun up at all times to function but this one doesnt. for that reason heat rock :torkoal: would just be a momentum sink. eject pack overheat is extremely useful. Not only for calcs such as this:

252 SpA :Ninetales: Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD :Darkrai: in Sun: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

but more importantly for situations like this:

252 SpA :Ninetales: Overheat vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD :Primarina: in Sun: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA :Ninetales: Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD :Iron Moth: in Sun: 107-126 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

where you can guarantee breaking the sub + getting a switch to something favourable, whereas :torkoal: can still run eject pack, theyll be boosting before you move and you wont break the sub. As this team has some really greedy wallbreakers such as life orb :raging bolt: and Adamant CB :great tusk:, you dont need the extra turns of setup from heat rock. eject pack/ momento into one of these breakers and take a KO.

:Roaring moon: barely uses the sun on this team, Its mainly a bluff on a choice item to scare people into switching and get an extra DD. It busts a nut. Every. Single. Game. The dark steel combo is fearsome (not like we should be surprised) and it can cheese past anything sturdy with iron head (cheap ass move, gamefreak). 44 speed creeps :dragonite: and :dragapult: after 1 DD. This ties into why i choose :galvantula: over :ribombee:. :galvantula: has 100% accurate thunder wave, and there are games where that is the better choice over webs. Anytime i face that situation with :ribombee: i start sweating about stun spore missing.

Finally :cinderace: is there for a high powered pyro ball under sun and for a secondary priority option in a pinch. he has hazard control should i choose to not use webs in a game, but court change is a rare occurence. I havent tried this but you could try :infernape:, who has overheat+vacuum wave or flareblitz+mach punch. obviously you have no hazard control AT ALL then but like i said at the start, you have the firepower to manage that, and you can bluff spin with tusk.

Thankyou for reading
I took personal issue with you saying "100% accurate paralysis", before I remembered Compound Eyes.

I really concur with that reasoning. The amount of games I won because the opponent's Stun Spore missing is truly despicable.
 
Who would have thought a mon that forced a master rule change (sleep) in order to remain in the tier is now considered broken. Darkrai being OU was the community's materialization of its old wish to unban a "true" and traditional uber for the lolz. We had our fun but now its time to go.
 
Who would have thought a mon that forced a master rule change (sleep) in order to remain in the tier is now considered broken. Darkrai being OU was the community's materialization of its old wish to unban a "true" and traditional uber for the lolz. We had our fun but now its time to go.
w pfp
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
bit late to the party but might as well share my thoughts and ramblings on the most recent tiering survey since i'm too tired to go over each pokemon individually

like xavgb said, we should give it some time before opening any suspect tests or dropping pokemon from ubers. darkrai should be closely monitored in future tiering surveys, but at the risk of sounding like an outsider on twitter i believe it's also important to explore new options to curb the threat it poses. for instance, tinkaton has picked up in usage & viability considerably, largely because of her naturally good matchup against darkrai alongside her many other valuable traits (her typing, movepool, ability, etc.), and has become a legitimately good OU pokemon because of it. i think giving people time to innovate their own solutions to a rampant offensive threat can be valuable if the threat is not one that requires immediate tiering action. and it's for this reason i gave darkrai a 3 on the tiering survey, undeniably a dangerous pokemon but i'm willing to wait and see how things play out first. and to a lesser (or even greater) extent, i see ogerpon-W and kyurem the same way

as for the other pokemon featured on the survey, i genuinely could care less. in retrospect, maybe gouging fire could be suspect tested again later down the line but i do not believe kingambit, raging bolt, zamazenta, or any other pokemon i didn't already mention is deserving of tiering action in the near future. even if they may feel cheap to play against at times there is plenty of reliable counterplay that exists for all of them, and said counterplay has existed for quite some time now. i personally think it's time to move on from discussing these pokemon, that is until something new comes up

and of course, quickban zapdos and moltres. not because they're broken but because i simply despise them
 
has become a legitimately good OU pokemon because of it.
This is a stretch. Tinkaton is certainly VIABLE, and it's a decent pick on some structures but calling it legitimately good is pushing the reality of things a bit. It has some serious issues (lack of longevity, being stretched too thin for checking too many things at once leading to be overwhelmed, passive). It's also not exactly a particularly splashable pokemon.

I'm fine with the idea of waiting just a little longer to see if people innovate further and come up with checks, but it's also important to monitor how people feel towards the tier going forwards as while overall feelings are a bit better post Volc, they still could be better and there is still notable distaste for certain aspects of this tier which is why I believe there is only so much waiting that can be done before something has to break.
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
B- for a UU pokemon is pretty commendable in my book, and i've seen legitimate arguments from qualified players in favor of moving it higher. it's not a meta staple but it's a legitimate off-meta pick imo, tho in hindsight i understand that calling it good is a bit of a stretch
 

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