Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Since the discussion of bans are being brought up (for mons that may or may not deserve it) I'd figured I would give my own take on what I believe are the most banworthy mons in the tier atm, bear in mind I am low ladder who has just been observing the meta through the forums and games.

:gouging-fire:Gouging Fire
I'm kinda iffy on this guy right now, on one hand, it is an incredible strong DDancer and Band user under sun with recovery
on the other hand, he's hazard weak in a metagame lacking a lot of reliable hazard removers and filled with hazard setters as well as being reliant on both tera and sun to destroy bulky resists like Dondozo
He could be banned, or could not be, deserves a suspect at the very least.

:Kyurem:
Kyurem
IMO, the most banworthy thing in the tier right now, Specs has virtually zero switch-ins, and this thing's bulk under both veil and snow is really good, I expect him to be one of the first suspect tests of this meta
Being hazard weak like gouging fire could hold him back a bit, but Kyurem hits so hard it usually doesn't matter.


:roaring-moon:Roaring Moon
Still doing the same BS with knock-off as they did back in DLC1, not much has changed for moon other than competition with gouging fire for DDancer under sun who also makes use of choice band. Unlike gouging fire, moon has knock-off, allowing it to force progress more easily than gouging fire, will likely get a suspect down the line.

:Deoxys-speed:Deoxys-Speed
It's lead sets are annoying, as they have always been when it was in OU of generations past, but its offensive sets are also strong and can do some pretty good damage. However it's base typing of mono-psychic is TERRIBLE in meta filled with dark types and psychic resists like Kingambit and Gholdengo, most balanced out of these 4, though could still be seen as problematic later down the line.

Special mentions go to :Enamorus:, :Raging Bolt:, and :Archaludon: for being very strong, but having more exploitable weaknesses compared to the 4 above.

Also, :Darkrai: is not broken, still good, but not broken, get over it.
 
I love using :Hoopa-Unbound: in todays metagame. You just have to pair it with Mons that can tank U-Turn’s and other Physical attacks. It destroys fat teams but you need the right mons to support it.
Hoopa-U is definitely not a bad choice. It's way more specific and specialized as it's specially good for fatter teams.
 
okay so i have not been much on gen 9 since the dlc dropped and i'm just wondering
with all of Gholdengo, Deoxys, Gliscor, Hamurott, Skarmory and Ting-Lu... how is the hazard game rn ?
 
Hey guys, today I have decided to put my stupidity and love for Ampharos together. I’m trying to drag ZU Amp to OU by spam playing him. Now this isn’t just gonna be a garbage post. I’ve found that Spec Ampharos in Rain hits hard, and has the crazy unique niche of baiting the opponent’s Electric Immunity such as Tusk, Treads. Ampharos is actually perfect switch bait.


Ampharos @ Choice Specs
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 526-620 (136.9 - 161.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Ampharos Dazzling Gleam vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 246-291 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

This helps pave the way for Electro Shot Archaludon. Not saying Ampharos is good by any means, but we have hope those who fell in love with the sheep in G / S.

Also, hits some common Mons HARD. In fact, also perfect Raging Bolt bait.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunder vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 310-366 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 292-345 (92.6 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Ampharos Dazzling Gleam vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 434-512 (104.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 374-442 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Help me my fellow Smogon users to drag Ampharos up and fulfill its true and undiscovered OU potential! We will include Calcs on how Ampharos performs defensively!
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
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OU Leader
The SV OU council is voting internally to determine if we will have a suspect this week or not act, waiting until mid-January to reassess. We are taking everything that had above a 3.0 on the tiering survey here and voting.


This is precisely what I said to council. The vote is ongoing. I will keep you guys updated, but this is my best attempt at being transparent.
 
If anyone cares what user Peepeepoopoo72 has to say- I think ghould is the most "exciting" to suspect. Maybe a defog enabled meta is lit. I personally don't think any -need- banned but of them ghould opens the meta up the most to new possibilities. Of course maybe we find with defog enabled something like gouging fire becomes too stronk. Who knows. Most exciting to try though and I think the community (or at least the loud handful in these threads) expect its owed to them or whatever.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
If anyone cares what user Peepeepoopoo72 has to say- I think ghould is the most "exciting" to suspect. Maybe a defog enabled meta is lit. I personally don't think any -need- banned but of them ghould opens the meta up the most to new possibilities. Of course maybe we find with defog enabled something like gouging fire becomes too stronk. Who knows. Most exciting to try though and I think the community (or at least the loud handful in these threads) expect its owed to them or whatever.
Weirdly enough i think Gholdengo keeps Kyurem balanced in a way. Not via some Steel Beam/Make It Rain shenanigans, but rather because it keeps hazards on field, thus either kneecapping Kyu damage output by mandating HDB, or chunking a full quarter of its health if it goes for Specs/Scarf.

Just another way Good As Gold keeps the meta in a headlock.
 
The SV OU council is voting internally to determine if we will have a suspect this week or not act, waiting until mid-January to reassess. We are taking everything that had above a 3.0 on the tiering survey here and voting.


This is precisely what I said to council. The vote is ongoing. I will keep you guys updated, but this is my best attempt at being transparent.
I agree with the council’s opinion that Kyurem & Gouging Fire are the biggest threats on the radar, but if we want to consolidate with the community opinion, I think a Roaring Moon suspect is the way to go. Not only did it score the highest, I think it has some of the highest potential for not having any potential negative collateral after it leaves since it’s not really being used for its defensive utility and doesn’t have a niche that nothing else can fulfill.
 
Weirdly enough i think Gholdengo keeps Kyurem balanced in a way. Not via some Steel Beam/Make It Rain shenanigans, but rather because it keeps hazards on field, thus either kneecapping Kyu damage output by mandating HDB, or chunking a full quarter of its health if it goes for Specs/Scarf.

Just another way Good As Gold keeps the meta in a headlock.
Unlike previous pokemon bans, every new pokemon has at least some defensive merit, which means that the meta will always be worse in some way, even if the overall benefit of banning a mon is positive. It's sad really, something like ghold or gambit do have defensive qualities, but they still are overpowered due to other qualities. If gambit didn't have sucker, it would be a great defensive mon, though sucker is some of its defensive merit. That is a great example of a mons offensive traits also being its defensive quailites.

Also I've been thinking, but would their be benefit of running adamant and agility with booster. You get an attack boost, but can outspeed literally everything. I did something like this for iron crown, and it worked out alright.
Iron Boulder @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Mighty Cleave
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Boulder Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 252-298 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Boulder Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 210-248 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Boulder Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 220-260 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
roaring moon's gotta go y'all. like it's still insanely dumb and nothing bar the neutering of its movepool or the banning of booster energy will change that.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
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I think these two should be the main priorities for a suspect. Specs Kyurem 6-0s teams lacking Volc, Scizor, or SpD Corv. Tera Ice is on another level of disrespect. On top of being comically bulky under snow. Roaring Moon still has no reliable counters. Your options for counterplay are priority, Booster Boulder, Dozo, or Skarm. The later two could get shut down by Taunt variants.

IMG_4539.png

Gambit is a low priority for me. I think the re-introduction of Skarm has made Gambit counterplay more flexible. Volc can threaten with burns, Raging Bolt outspeeds and is tanky enough to eat Sucker Punches. Washtom has gained popularity. Meow and Weav sometimes run Low Kick. It is a fantastic glue on almost all archetypes with its ghost resistance strong STAB Sucker Punches, but I don’t think it is in broken territory anymore.
 
The SV OU council is voting internally to determine if we will have a suspect this week or not act, waiting until mid-January to reassess. We are taking everything that had above a 3.0 on the tiering survey here and voting.


This is precisely what I said to council. The vote is ongoing. I will keep you guys updated, but this is my best attempt at being transparent.
:roaring moon: - It makes me very happy that Roaring Moon is viewed as the most immediate threat. It cleaves through so many different archetypes and oppressively punishes team building, I would not be sad to see it go. I feel that it's the most pressing, overpowered mon in OU at the moment and should likely be looked at first.

:gholdengo: - I'm still on the fence about Cinnamonmon; on one hand, it would be nice to have a meta where hazard clearing was easier, but on the other hand it has never been easier to take out Dhengo thanks to the Dark-type infested meta being relatively unkind to it. I think it's still fantastic, but worse than DLC1 (where I was leaning towards a ban).

:deoxys speed: - I'm really ecstatic that public opinion has shifted around Deo-S from "broken" to "it's pretty damn good." I've heard arguments that Deoxys-Speed warps the metagame around it in a glue-like fashion, but I couldn't disagree more (and I think the usage stats to a degree additionally proved that). Don't get me wrong, it's still fantastic and the speed control it allows for is matched by no other Pokemon - but being an extremely frail Psychic-type that has middling offenses without a boost is not the best quality. I think Deo-S fits right at home in the meta, and it'd be a shame to see it go as I'm really starting to like Deo-S's presence here.

:kingambit: - Not broken, was never broken (maybe a little annoying in DLC1 but not unmanageable), will likely never be broken. It's very easy to force Kingambit in or out, its speed, comparably low special defense, and reliance on priority are very exploitable. I love Kingambit, I've never once felt overwhelmed trying to deal with it, especially now that Archaludon and Skarmory in the game. Roaring Moon and Meowscarada are both better Dark-types than Kingambit in my opinion, and I'd be pretty disappointed to see it leave as I think Kingambit adds quite a bit to OU's landscape.

:kyurem: - I'm also on the fence about Kyurem, but leaning more towards a ban. Kyurem does have counterplay, and it has a lot of exploitable qualities (such as its horrid defensive typing, hazard vulnerability, etc) but it's bulky, fast for what it is, and additionally hits like a truck. A lot of the meta has warped around dealing with its Specs variant. I wouldn't be upset to see it go.

:volcarona: - I feel Volcarona is far more manageable in this meta, and that Serperior is far more of a threat due to being able to exude offensive pressure while boosting. Both are MU-fish mons, so it can be frustrating, but I personally haven't had many troubles with it.

:gouging fire: - This mon has a nice variety of sets and it has the potential for truly nuclear damage output, but it also has the potential to sit like a momentum lump and end up being a dead slot. I get that a lot of people here feel passionately about Gouging Fire, but I'm not seeing the broken aspects of it beyond maybe its role on Sun teams (which is questionable, I'll give it that). I think Gouging Fire's bulky sets could be a big turning point for the mon once they're explored more.

:iron boulder: - Not broken by any means; yeah it's fast, but its power is really lacking without boosts, and even then there are several major hard stops to it. You basically get one chance per match to make Boulder work, and often it sometimes just ends up chipping things. Mighty Cleave is great, but not this unstoppable force people are making it out to be. Also, Rock/Psychic typing is loaded with problems both offensively and defensively, and Boulder's reliance on Booster Energy means that it's one of the most hazard-prone mons in the entire OU meta.

:serperior: - Demon from hell. I love Serperior as a mon design-wise but god this thing is so annoying. The MU-fish king, I wouldn't be upset at all seeing it get the yeet.

:enamorus: - I don't think it's broken, but it's definitely being underutilized. I'll keep my opinion a little more reserved on Enamorus for right now as I'd like to see what it can fully do in this meta.

:raging bolt: - Not broken either, it's just another really good mon.

Is Furret finally getting a suspect test now?
jelly-fish-aasj.jpg

:furret:
Furret @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Frisk
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 24 HP / 100 Atk / 144 Def / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn​
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
The SV OU council is voting internally to determine if we will have a suspect this week or not act, waiting until mid-January to reassess. We are taking everything that had above a 3.0 on the tiering survey here and voting.


This is precisely what I said to council. The vote is ongoing. I will keep you guys updated, but this is my best attempt at being transparent.
Finch once again racking up the dubs for being transparent as he can about everything.

Out of these options, I would support action on Moon or Kyurem the most, but I think Roaring Moon is the best path forward for a test. Kyurem is extremely gross into balance, sure, but Moon is a beast and Taunt DD is such a reliable wincon. It also helps that we have enough public support for a Roaring Moon test compared to a Kyurem test. I feel like public sentiment is coming around on Kyurem, but the survey had Moon as the highest mon in terms of both general and qualified responses. I wouldn't be shocked if Kyurem was the next thing we acted on after Moon, but I feel Moon is the right mon to look at.

Gholdengo I wouldn't be *opposed* to testing, but I begrudgingly know its a band aid solution to how strong hazard stack is. Adding Corviknight or another viable spinblocker to the tier via removing Ghold wouldn't make hazards weaker. The reality is that similar to say, Gen V OU, we just have few strong hazard removal options and a ton of great setters. In terms of good removal options we have right now, we have Great Tusk and Cinderace, and Ace isnt a perfect solution to the hazards issue either. Does having a semi viable Iron Treads in a post Ghold meta or a better Corviknight fix things? I doubt it.

I would strongly oppose a test on Kingambit right now. I was going to talk about this with Gholdengo, but banning either it or Kingambit right now would be a massive tier shift. You would seismically shift the tier a ton by looking into either when both have very strong positive rolls to fill as well. Unlike Ghold, there is no copium I can take to say that *maybe* this would fix the hazards issue.

Deoxys Speed while great imo isn't a priority right now. Its actually settling into the meta nicely and I would oppose action for now. I think its a net positive for the tier, and it has not proven to be over centralizing like I feared offensive Deo S would be.
 

viivian

beep boop
is a Tiering Contributor
Also waiting on the "drop from Ubers" train to start talking about Flutter Mane, as I unironically think she might be fine; she's pretty close to Darkrai and he turned out fine, jus' sayin'
there are thousands of languages worldwide and you chose to speak facts

View attachment 587746View attachment 587747
I think these two should be the main priorities for a suspect. Specs Kyurem 6-0s teams lacking Volc, Scizor, or SpD Corv. Tera Ice is on another level of disrespect. On top of being comically bulky under snow. Roaring Moon still has no reliable counters. Your options for counterplay are priority, Booster Boulder, Dozo, or Skarm. The later two could get shut down by Taunt variants.

View attachment 587752
Gambit is a low priority for me. I think the re-introduction of Skarm has made Gambit counterplay more flexible. Volc can threaten with burns, Raging Bolt outspeeds and is tanky enough to eat Sucker Punches. Washtom has gained popularity. Meow and Weav sometimes run Low Kick. It is a fantastic glue on almost all archetypes with its ghost resistance strong STAB Sucker Punches, but I don’t think it is in broken territory anymore.
i slightly disagree with your take on kingambit, i think its still worthy of another suspect test but at the same time i do agree that id rather have the council act on it after we deal with RM, kyurem and gholdengo. speaking of kyurem...

kyurem in particular really caught me by surprise due to how broken it is. i knew itd still be good this gen but i thought losing roost would make it far more manageable. and while it is more manageable now than it was in SWSH, its still considered far too much for the tier, much to my shock.

and as for deoxys-S, it could get a suspect test but the four pokemon mentioned above are far more worthy of one than deoxys is. it definitely will emerge as an issue if gholdengo and kingambit find themselves leaving the tier, hence why i believe it should be suspected if and/or after we deal with those two
 
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I think part of the reason why Deo-S and Deo-D are not overpowered in this metagame is because what they do is no longer so special. Yes, Deo-S is the fastest thing in the tier, but its main problem before was that it could always get up spikes, which were pretty limited in distribution. Now, getting up spikes easily is not as special in a meta with glimm, hamurott, skarmory and ting lu. Now, we can have other options in the metagame, though they still are most of the time the right choice. Plus, hazards are not as special since everything and their mother got spikes this generation. If hazard control was better/spikes were more exclusive, I think it could have been banworthy.
 
I think part of the reason why Deo-S and Deo-D are not overpowered in this metagame is because what they do is no longer so special. Yes, Deo-S is the fastest thing in the tier, but its main problem before was that it could always get up spikes, which were pretty limited in distribution. Now, getting up spikes easily is not as special in a meta with glimm, hamurott, skarmory and ting lu. Now, we can have other options in the metagame, though they still are most of the time the right choice. Plus, hazards are not as special since everything and their mother got spikes this generation. If hazard control was better/spikes were more exclusive, I think it could have been banworthy.
Hypothetically, Iron Treads now learns Spikes. How does this affect the OU meta? With Booster Energy, it's faster than Deo-S, and can Rapid Spin. It's much bulkier and has better offense (physical side) and better stabs, at the cost of coverage.
 
While I wouldn't say no to a Gholdengo suspect in hopes that it makes Hazards better, even if just a bit, I think my priority list of support would be:
1 - Kyurem Suspect
2 - No suspect
3 - Roaring Moon Suspect
4 - Gholdengo Suspect
Deoxys-S, still don't like it, but not so sure it deserves a suspect anymore. Kingambit, definitely not a priority now.

Still want to suspect Booster Energy more than Roaring Moon, though, and also think that between Gourging Fire and a myriad of paradoxes for Sun, and Archaludon for Rain, we may be in the prelude to a Weather talk. Maybe. Sun, at least, is kinda too good right now imo.
 
While I wouldn't say no to a Gholdengo suspect in hopes that it makes Hazards better, even if just a bit, I think my priority list of support would be:
1 - Kyurem Suspect
2 - No suspect
3 - Roaring Moon Suspect
4 - Gholdengo Suspect
Deoxys-S, still don't like it, but not so sure it deserves a suspect anymore. Kingambit, definitely not a priority now.

Still want to suspect Booster Energy more than Roaring Moon, though, and also think that between Gourging Fire and a myriad of paradoxes for Sun, and Archaludon for Rain, we may be in the prelude to a Weather talk. Maybe. Sun, at least, is kinda too good right now imo.
DON’T YOU DARE!
I love my “Stance Change” Gouging Fire tech I made last year and it only works because of Booster Energy.

Edit: Speaking of which, I just learned that Booster Energy blocks Trick and otherwise can't be removed if the Pokemon holding it is a Paradox Pokemon (minus Koraidon/Miraidon). This being neat as there is less ways to screw over the tech.
 
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I was thinking Kyurem was broken. But now, I think Roaring Moon really needs to go. No mon being able to resist its coverage is absurd. You literally need Air Balloon Tinkaton to wall it. For one turn.
 

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