Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

Question to drag us back onto a topic:
How is destiny bond on lead Smeargle? Curious if it would work as first move.
…hmm.

hmm.

on paper, it could work. if they lead something that outspeeds and kills smeargle (read: any non-stallmon), you can throw up a dbond to deter them from attacking the next turn, which has a fairly high chance of either giving you a free turn or losing them a mon

on the other hand, smeargle can just use spore and potentially get multiple free turns with the first one being virtually guaranteed. i think dbond can only really work in a meta without sleep
 
I just remembered some bullshit that annoys me heavily and I am now going to talk about it because it's semi-relevant. Fucking Conkeldurr still has defog but lando and torn don't this is bullshit
Because Conkeldurr gets it through breeding whereas the other two only had it from the USUM Move Tutor lol
 
I just remembered some bullshit that annoys me heavily and I am now going to talk about it because it's semi-relevant. Fucking Conkeldurr still has defog but lando and torn don't this is bullshit
i have no idea why it got it in the first place. it doesn't even make sense from a flavor perspective. defog is for mons that can generate wind somehow, right? so what the fuck is conkeldurr doing to generate wind? what is timburr doing to generate wind? are we expected to believe they, like, spin their logs or steel beams or concrete pillars around like a giant fan to blow away the hazards? because that raises the question of why every mon holding some sort of long stick-like object can't learn it. and if they're clearing hazards by rapidly spinning something, why not just give them rapid spin? it's so confusing
 
i have no idea why it got it in the first place. it doesn't even make sense from a flavor perspective. defog is for mons that can generate wind somehow, right? so what the fuck is conkeldurr doing to generate wind? what is timburr doing to generate wind? are we expected to believe they, like, spin their logs or steel beams or concrete pillars around like a giant fan to blow away the hazards? because that raises the question of why every mon holding some sort of long stick-like object can't learn it. and if they're clearing hazards by rapidly spinning something, why not just give them rapid spin? it's so confusing
Simple: Timburr and its evolutions are really strong.

The real question is why they don't also get whirlwind. Is their power limited to merely blowing away fifty pounds of rocks and a spilled box of caltrops?

e: Actually, Infernape should get defog. That thing's a certified master with the staff.
 
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i have no idea why it got it in the first place. it doesn't even make sense from a flavor perspective. defog is for mons that can generate wind somehow, right? so what the fuck is conkeldurr doing to generate wind? what is timburr doing to generate wind? are we expected to believe they, like, spin their logs or steel beams or concrete pillars around like a giant fan to blow away the hazards? because that raises the question of why every mon holding some sort of long stick-like object can't learn it. and if they're clearing hazards by rapidly spinning something, why not just give them rapid spin? it's so confusing
They're not buff enough. Arm's gotta be at least 40% of a Pokemon's body mass before they can lift enuff.
So Beldum is buff enough? It's 100% arm.
Nah, that doesn't count. Besides, he's got mad Popeye Arm Syndrome, he could crush the hell out of an aluminum can but he has no swing power.
 
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i have no idea why it got it in the first place. it doesn't even make sense from a flavor perspective. defog is for mons that can generate wind somehow, right? so what the fuck is conkeldurr doing to generate wind? what is timburr doing to generate wind? are we expected to believe they, like, spin their logs or steel beams or concrete pillars around like a giant fan to blow away the hazards? because that raises the question of why every mon holding some sort of long stick-like object can't learn it. and if they're clearing hazards by rapidly spinning something, why not just give them rapid spin? it's so confusing
My guess was that Conkeldurr would clap hard enough to cause hazards to be removed.

But anyways, I don’t see Conkeldurr being that great at Defogging especially with Guts. It’s slow and gets constantly chipped by flame orb. It’s also not immune to spikes and only means to reliably beat Gholdengo is Knock Off or Tera Ghost Tera Blast or Fire Punch.
 
Well, it's all well and good to talk about Sleep and Darkrai, but in reality:

Which Pokémon do you find the most problematic at the moment, and therefore deserves a priority suspect test?
 
I really like KD458's post on sleep clause in SV OU. I do disagree with their viewpoints, but I find the post to be really thorough, well-thought out and explained, as well as being fair to both sides of the discussion. It seems like a post that is genuinely trying to see both sides of the issue, and I admire their breakdown and thoughtfulness placed on the Sleep discussion. Here are a few points I would like to comment on:

Forgive if the quote link is not 100% correct I am new to quoting from another page on these forums.
Although a pretty different situation, Baton Pass is a wide distribution move that breaks a selection of Pokemon to the extent of it being deserving of a ban - no one would really argue that dry passing is uncompetitive on mons that cannot boost their stats such as pre-Flip Turn Alomomola, but stat passing is clearly broken on certain viable mons and so it is banned across all users. Similarly, sleep moves don't feel broken whatsoever on certain defensive users, but offensive threats that can leverage it well provide the main argument for a ban. Is this the fault of broken sleep users or sleep moves being broken in general? Without the Sleep Clause Mod, sleep does seem clearly broken, so we already acknowledge that it's a broken mechanic, while Sleep Clause Mod no longer actually provides artificial balance it as well as it once with the prevalence of inaccurate sleep moves that actually get rewarded by missing if you use this invented counterplay. Why don't we give it the Baton Pass treatment and remove it from the tier entirely? Then again, is this really necessary with how few sleep users pose a large metagame threat compared to how many mons Baton Pass breaks?
This kinda hits the nail on the head for me. Baton Pass is a move that is broken on a large number of mons and the reasoning for that is simply that allowing the baton pass user to setup and pass worthwhile stats into any strong pokemon is something that is inherently broken in its idea. There is no one pokemon that is broken with options to baton pass boosts as really any pokemon that is already amazing (almost anything A-S tier viability) becomes broken with access to boosts that it otherwise wouldn't normally get, and it doesn't matter which pokemon are that high up in viability. Almost any user of baton pass (even pokemon that are otherwise woefully unviable) will be able to find a way to cheat boosts up for itself and then pass it into any ally pokemon that is already very absurdly powerful, allowing itself to break the tier. This is true for many many possible users of baton pass. This does not track with modern sleep implementations as the true beneficiary of sleep rn is more often the pokemon that is using sleep rather than another pokemon benefitting from it.

These pokemon are also pokemon that are required to run a sleep move, a stat boosting move, and only maximum two coverage moves. They have to then hope that that with their base stats is enough to break the tier open. This does not apply for many lower tier sleep-sweepers/sleep-breakers (which are either two slow, too weak to priority and/or answered by too many pokemon in the tier) and is a much smaller pool of pokemon than the pokemon that abuse Baton pass. Therefore, it stands to reason this should be judged on a mon to mon basis as to whether or not that pokemon is too uncompetitive for the tier. This is ultimately a very small list. Your post is very well thought out but does not list under "Solutions", simply banning Darkrai AND Iron Valiant (and Lilligant Hisui if it comes down to it). There is no solid justification for the "Sleep Ban" argument as to why we should not simply ban the few truly broken sleep abusers as opposed to sleep as a whole, which is what you seem to imply in your break down of yawn and spore users (pokemon that are far from broken with the move).

I don't think you can truly make the argument to ban sleep moves entirely if only a small selection of pokemon are broken with it. Rather your arguments seem to imply more that Sleep Clause mod is archaic and should be replaced by one more cart-accurate such as the one suggested by MeepBard. The argument continuously made of Sleep Clause mod does not make 100% of sleep users balanced therefore Sleep Clause mod does not work does not hold weight or consistency across the bans you previously listed. In the case of the baton pass ban, almost any combination pokemon is uncompetitive with it. Additionally, your evaluation of the Evasion ban does state that even unviable pokemon like Raichu would be uncompetitive with access to Evasion boosting moves (even bad ones like double team). While its true that Sleep Clause mod is something in place that already limits sleep to an extent, to argue for its entire removal and outright banning of sleep moves entirely implies that far more pokemon are broken with sleep than what currently is viable in OU. Using Baton pass as an analogy again, Boost Passing finally led to a removal of the Baton Pass Clause once the council was able to argue that there were many many pokemon that were problematic that could sufficiently pass boosts to ally pokemon. You would have to argue many pokemon are broken with sleep despite Sleep Clause mod's existence to prove that Sleep Clause Mod (in some form cart-accurate or not) is what is not working rather than the few Sleep abusers being the problems.
 
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I dunno if this is a dumb question, but it's been weighing on me for a bit since I saw the usage results for last month. So, uh...

What does Iron Crown... do?

It feels like every time I see it, it's running an off-meta set, even if it's something really straightforward like Expanding Force on psyspam teams. Its stats don't really seem to give it any particular role, it's not bulky enough to be defensive, it's not fast enough to be offensive outside of aforementioned psyspam where it can go Booster Speed. What is Iron Crown's like, main thing it does?
 
I dunno if this is a dumb question, but it's been weighing on me for a bit since I saw the usage results for last month. So, uh...

What does Iron Crown... do?

It feels like every time I see it, it's running an off-meta set, even if it's something really straightforward like Expanding Force on psyspam teams. Its stats don't really seem to give it any particular role, it's not bulky enough to be defensive, it's not fast enough to be offensive outside of aforementioned psyspam where it can go Booster Speed. What is Iron Crown's like, main thing it does?
It brags that it made OU while Zapados dropped.
 

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Finchinator , sorry for tagging you but I just realized something. Will the survey cover in its options the possibility of removing Sleep Clause and then only banning some but not every sleeping-related move? I can see a case for banning Hypnosis, Spore etc due to their wide distribution and ease of afflicting the condition, but letting Yawn and Relic Song, Dire Claw etc to be kept around. Like, surely a Clauseless metagame could deal with Torkoal spamming Yawn, right?
 
How is Pecharunt doing so far in OU?
It's doing OK. Very physically bulky. Has some good utility options in Parting Shot. Its ability makes it so that any time it poisons, it also confuses.
It is OU viable, but having base 88 in every other stat other than defense, poor offensive coverage, and struggling against a certain Pokemon that should have gotten the boot a long time ago, means it won't stay OU via usage by the time the tiers update next month.
 

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Finchinator , sorry for tagging you but I just realized something. Will the survey cover in its options the possibility of banning some but not every sleeping-related move?
No, council doesn’t regard this as a serious prospect. It would be all of the sleep moves.

For reference, I see this as similar to the council of a few generations ago pushing a Dugtrio suspect only for it to be forced to turn into Arena Trap when people had great success with Diglett.

I could use Dark Void with 10% less efficiency while still exploiting the same premise. Yes, it’s obviously less good, but you’re still encountering the same issue.
 
How is Pecharunt doing so far in OU?
I've been having some pretty good success with it, specifically as a Parting Shot pivot. Run it with Deo-S and some sweepers of your choice and it unironically make a good addition to HO, not as a sweeper itself but for creating a ton of set-up opportunities for other teammates. You outspeed Gholdengo and can 2HKO with Shadow Ball even without investment, so it's not a safe switch-in by any means. Also, spinblocking without being forced to run Gholdengo is really nice in a lot of circumstances, although you can't switch into things like Tusk as recklessly as people were hyping it up to before it was released. It can still be nice to deny Tusk the spin even if it requires you to sac it in a lot of mid-late game scenarios.

Overall I like it. Not top tier, might not even stay OU by usage, but it has a very solid niche that no other 'mon can currently fill anywhere near as effectively.
 
No, council doesn’t regard this as a serious prospect. It would be all of the sleep moves.

For reference, I see this as similar to the council of a few generations ago pushing a Dugtrio suspect only for it to be forced to turn into Arena Trap when people had great success with Diglett.

I could use Dark Void with 10% less efficiency while still exploiting the same premise. Yes, it’s obviously less good, but you’re still encountering the same issue.
It's a shame, but I completely get it.

I wish there was an elegant solution that didn't involve getting rid of Darkrai and Valiant (who outside of these Hypnosis shenanigans aren't problematic in the slightest) or removing moves like Spore or Yawn which either have distribution issues/can't deal with Grass-types in the former's case or have obvious counterplay due to the actual status effect being delayed in the latter's case, but complex bans are seldom a solution and never elegant.

I find it weirdly ironic that the problem with Hypnosis and similar junk is that the moves aren't consistent. 80% accurate Dark Void is consistent enough that Darkrai being the problem would be a pretty cut-and-dry issue, but Hypnosis being a terrible 60% and being the better option makes these sorts of Sleep-inducing moves too inconsistent to always rely on but inconsistent in a way that landing the move on the right target can still possibly win a game on the spot and missing the move is just endlessly frustrating for everyone (unless you missed something your opponent was just trying to sac to spend your Sleep Clause on, in which case that still fucking sucks for your opponent but for a different reason).

What a weird situation (fuck sleep moves btw).
 
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Well, it's all well and good to talk about Sleep and Darkrai, but in reality:

Which Pokémon do you find the most problematic at the moment, and therefore deserves a priority suspect test?
Roaring Moon probably. It’s the most straight forward of being suspect worthy Pokemon.
Gouging Fire Maybe. I see super strong calcs, but all of which require ton of support and for it to use CB instead of HDBs.
 
It feels like every time I see it, it's running an off-meta set, even if it's something really straightforward like Expanding Force on psyspam teams. Its stats don't really seem to give it any particular role, it's not bulky enough to be defensive, it's not fast enough to be offensive outside of aforementioned psyspam where it can go Booster Speed. What is Iron Crown's like, main thing it does?
It's primarily run as yet another CM Stored Power sweeper with the differentiating factors being a pretty decent base typing defensively and Booster Energy giving it some more set versatility than other Stored Power 'mons (Booster Speed with Iron Defense, Booster SpA with Agility being the main things). It can also run a decent Scarf/Specs set with a decently powerful Volt Switch helping it keep momentum. If you really want to get into meme territory, it's also far and away the best manual setter of Electric Terrain we've had.
 
It's a shame, but I completely get it.

I wish there was an elegant solution that didn't involve getting rid of Darkrai and Valiant (who outside of these Hypnosis shenanigans aren't problematic in the slightest) or removing moves like Spore or Yawn which either have distribution issues/can't deal with Grass-types in the former's case or have obvious counterplay due to the actual status effect being delayed in the latter's case, but complex bans are seldom a solution and never elegant.

I find it weirdly ironic that the problem with Hypnosis and similar junk is that the moves aren't consistent. 80% accurate Dark Void is consistent enough that Darkrai being the problem would be a pretty cut-and-dry issue, but Hypnosis being a terrible 60% and being the better option makes these sorts of Sleep-inducing moves too inconsistent to always rely on but inconsistent in a way that landing the move on the right target can still possibly win a game on the spot and missing the move is just endlessly frustrating for everyone (unless you missed something your opponent was just trying to sac to spend your Sleep Clause on, in which case that still fucking sucks for your opponent but for a different reason).

What a weird situation (fuck sleep moves btw).
So essentially the issue is that:
a) Low accuracy sleep moves from Rai and Val generate a massive advantage, because the mons using them are already very fast and strong. They can potentially become much more difficult to handle if they get that low RNG roll. Banning sleep is good in this case, bc it reduces RNG fishing that leads to too high of a payoff.

and

b) Grass type sleep moves like spore do not generate that great of an advantage, because the mons using them are not immediate enough (mostly offensively) to generate overwhelming situations. Banning sleep is not good in this case, because it removes one of the ways defensive mons can meaningfully make progress.
 

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